Hmv

readyletsgo

I posted this in one of the many other HMV topics on boards re the voucher situation.
I wasnt too bothered about the voucher tbh, but this is what happened this morning.....

This is all terrible news, I feel so sorry for all the Irish staff this morning! I hope they get their wage next week and get redundancy very soon.

But, on a lighter note, when this was announced on Monday evening, I rang my credit card company to find out how I would go about getting my money back for the voucher I had gotten the day before (sunday). Lady in the credit card company adviced she did not know how all this was going to play out BUT she would start the process of getting the money back for me but wouldnt be able to process it at all at the time as they were in the dark as much as anyone else in Ireland.

So this morning I just happened to check my credit card and saw a full refund had been done! BRILLIANT!

So my advice to anyone who paid with credit card, get in contact with your CC company and they will help you out.

Sorry if this is no help to the guy with the €200 voucher, I do hope they will offer something to you in the next days/weeks coming to cover it.

Not great news for the poor staff but I'm glad I got my money back, phew.

Hope this helps.

keithclancy

RoboRat wrote: »

Erm, how so? That makes no sense. People bought the voucher in HMV and they were redeeming it in HMV, if they were going into Golden Discs, then your comparison would make sense.



The transaction wasn't one sided though, they agreed to sell a voucher for X amount in the understanding that at some stage within a specified timeframe, that voucher would be redeemed. This is the agreement or transaction that took place initially and both parties were privy to this. HMV decided to then move the goalposts so to speak, and illegally refuse to honour this voucher leaving the customer with no option than to take the goods. Put it this way, if you went into a chipper, paid €10 for some food and then they decided that they weren't going to serve you the food that you paid for, would they have a leg to stand on? You paid for the food, you have the receipt/voucher for the food and they cannot just decline to give you what you paid for.

It seems that its OK for the shop to take payment for a service that it knows it will probably never honour BUT its not OK for the consumer to claim what is rightfully theirs.

That's the problem, Vouchers by law are not treated the same as cash.
The legal route would have been to launch a claim via the small claims process.

http://www.nca.ie/nca/gift-vouchers

Morally what he did was right
Legally what he did was wrong.

ben101

What bothers me is that HMV had no right to refuse the vouchers at the beginning of the week.I reckon that when they realised that they were wrong from a legal standpoint, as HMV ireland had not gone into admistration,they chose to put the company into receivership,an even worse position thus shafting staff out of xmas overtime and holiday pay.All this added to the fact that they would have had to have had the best xmas turnover in donkeys years to survive they STILL took in a huge amount of cash for vouchers.This ,at the very least,is sharp practice,possibly even wreckless trading.There's an MP in england looking to bring criminal charges against HMV ,they have behaved even worse here,he could well have a point.

omnithanos

keithclancy wrote: »

Morally what he did was right
Legally what he did was wrong.

Legally you can drive at 80km down a country lane which should only have a speed limit of 40km.
Laws can be wrong, morals can't.

omnithanos

keithclancy wrote: »

Not really, he walked into a shop and performed a one sided transaction.
I.E. TAKE THIS AS PAYMENT
Shop doesn't accept.

Walks out - That's theft.

Pretty much the same as my going from Tescos with bag of Oranges and walking into Dunnes trying to exchange them for a bag of apples.

Where do you stand on the question of invitation to treat relating to the self service machines at Tesco? Are we supposed to ask a member of staff for permission before we use these machines?

DesperateDan

RoboRat wrote: »

The transaction wasn't one sided though, they agreed to sell a voucher for X amount in the understanding that at some stage within a specified timeframe, that voucher would be redeemed. This is the agreement or transaction that took place initially and both parties were privy to this. HMV decided to then move the goalposts so to speak, and illegally refuse to honour this voucher leaving the customer with no option than to take the goods. Put it this way, if you went into a chipper, paid €10 for some food and then they decided that they weren't going to serve you the food that you paid for, would they have a leg to stand on? You paid for the food, you have the receipt/voucher for the food and they cannot just decline to give you what you paid for.

It seems that its OK for the shop to take payment for a service that it knows it will probably never honour BUT its not OK for the consumer to claim what is rightfully theirs.

I would agree with that, first and foremost HMV should be paying back debts to customers that bought vouchers, then look after the money they owe to others. It must be pretty rough working in HMV right now

whippet

DesperateDan wrote: »

I would agree with that, first and foremost HMV should be paying back debts to customers that bought vouchers, then look after the money they owe to others. It must be pretty rough working in HMV right now

the laws regarding administration / examinerships and liquidations are there for a reason. While it's a kick in the teeth for consumers nothing can be done about it.

over the last couple of years 1000's of small businesses have been put to the pin of their collar or worse due to being unsecured creditors when businesses go bust and like the consumer there is shag all that can be done .. while it sucks that consumers won't have the latest Call of Duty when it comes out or something ... small business closing result in job losses .. the real tragedy isn't the vouchers.

DesperateDan

More politics

ben101

whippet wrote: »

the laws regarding administration / examinerships and liquidations are there for a reason. While it's a kick in the teeth for consumers nothing can be done about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILKz0myPAkY&feature=share&list=FL3l0BG_paQBcLPPnmX42TYQ

But wether HMV followed these laws is questionable to say the least.If they knew that they were going under they would have been breaking several laws by taking money for vouchers they had no intention of honouring.They had a chance to honour them at the beginning of the week when they were not in receivership but management decided to shut up shop ,i would say deliberately to avoid,or should i say evade paying up.

Goof

whippet wrote: »

the laws regarding administration / examinerships and liquidations are there for a reason. While it's a kick in the teeth for consumers nothing can be done about it.

over the last couple of years 1000's of small businesses have been put to the pin of their collar or worse due to being unsecured creditors when businesses go bust and like the consumer there is shag all that can be done .. while it sucks that consumers won't have the latest Call of Duty when it comes out or something ... small business closing result in job losses .. the real tragedy isn't the vouchers.

In a nutshell. The knock on of jobs being lost not just in HMV but in their smaller suppliers, competitors (as a result of 30% of the market just disappearing) is way, way, way worse than poxy vouchers. The vouchers are unlucky, yes, and in the case of them still issuing vouchers until close of business, maybe ethically hazy.
But it's nothing compared to the heads sitting in a store in Limerick this evening who didn't get paid. Maybe Golden Discs et al should have offered to pay the HMV staff's wages instead of being classless opportunists and taking the vouchers? But outrage Ireland inc. probably wouldn't think of the jobs being lost.

ben101

Goof wrote: »

In a nutshell. The knock on of jobs being lost not just in HMV but in their smaller suppliers, competitors (as a result of 30% of the market just disappearing) is way, way, way worse than poxy vouchers. The vouchers are unlucky, yes, and in the case of them still issuing vouchers until close of business, maybe ethically hazy.
But it's nothing compared to the heads sitting in a store in Limerick this evening who didn't get paid. Maybe Golden Discs et al should have offered to pay the HMV staff's wages instead of being classless opportunists and taking the vouchers? But outrage Ireland inc. probably wouldn't think of the jobs being lost.

Well said,it stinks.If HMV bosses knew(and i'm pretty sure they did)that they were doomed they should have at least had the decency to let the staff go before working them like donkeys for over a month during the busiest time of the year. without intending to pay them and when do the government intend on intervening?

They have been next to useless in resolving this.
All these workers are now in serious debt missing a months salary what with mortgages and utilities.Its just plain wrong.

juan.kerr

I wonder are the HMV bosses still waiting to be paid for December...

the groutch

ben101 wrote: »

But wether HMV followed these laws is questionable to say the least.If they knew that they were going under they would have been breaking several laws by taking money for vouchers they had no intention of honouring.They had a chance to honour them at the beginning of the week when they were not in receivership but management decided to shut up shop ,i would say deliberately to avoid,or should i say evade paying up.

the thing is though that it wasnt HMV that chose are choosing not to honour the vouchers, it's the receiver or administrator whose job is to maximise the repayments for the creditors on whose behalf they were appointed.

btw I know they weren't technically in receivership/administration on Tuesday, but I'd prefer not continue the bickering over technicalities.

A Dub in Glasgo

the groutch wrote: »

btw I know they weren't technically in receivership/administration on Tuesday, but I'd prefer not continue the bickering over technicalities.

You prefer it because it negates your argument. There is no technicality about it, HMV were not in receivership or administration in Ireland when they refused to honour vouchers the other day. Were they right or wrong to do that?

RoboRat

Maybe Golden Discs et al should have offered to pay the HMV staff's wages instead of being classless opportunists and taking the vouchers? But outrage Ireland inc. probably wouldn't think of the jobs being lost.

Seriously? You are getting at Golden Discs? I hope the staff get paid but if they don't, they might get something from the Department of Social Protection Social Insurance Fund.

You may think its classless opportunism but I think this is just good marketing, furthermore they are also donating to the Lilly Mae appeal. Perhaps that is why they are still in business....

The Big Red Button

So, the Clarion in Sligo are accepting HMV vouchers of up to €50, as a discount against gym membership.

http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=23969

Seems a bit of a cynical marketing ploy to me. €50 isn't a massive discount off gym membership, in the first place. And what happens if they accumulate a few hundred euro worth of gift vouchers - and then HMV decide that they'll honour outstanding gift vouchers?

I wonder if this is even legal.

RoboRat

I don't think they are taking them, just offering a discount on production of them.

€50 isn't a massive discount off gym membership, in the first place

Its €50 off... I wouldn't say no to €50 off anything.

Cynical marketing... there is no such thing!

Procrastastudy

chatterpillar wrote: »

So, the Clarion in Sligo are accepting HMV vouchers of up to €50, as a discount against gym membership.

http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=23969

Seems a bit of a cynical marketing ploy to me. €50 isn't a massive discount off gym membership, in the first place. And what happens if they accumulate a few hundred euro worth of gift vouchers - and then HMV decide that they'll honour outstanding gift vouchers?

I wonder if this is even legal.

Given the Irish stores are gone I'd say the chanced of euro giftcard being redeemed is pretty low. That said while it might be a bit cynical it's still €50 off - why would it be illegal?

delbertgrady

ben101 wrote: »

If HMV bosses knew (and I'm pretty sure they did) that they were doomed they should have at least had the decency to let the staff go before working them like donkeys for over a month during the busiest time of the year.

I think they were hoping that the Christmas period would be more successful than it was. Yes, the writing has been on the wall for ages, but that's not to say that management possibly thought their stay of execution would last longer than it did, probably into early February, with some more evident "advance warning" to staff and customers.
I'm certainly not defending what happened in relation to the voucher issue, but the fact of the matter is that they launched their ill-fated Blue Cross sale last Friday, in an effort to generate some much-needed income by the end of the month and to keep the banks at bay. Now, everyone knows that mid-January is a retail graveyard, but they must have hoped that two weeks plus of Blue Cross sales might have done enough, and yet within four days, the plug had been pulled.
It must have come as a surprise to all but the most senior people that the game was up as soon as it was, when it actually happened. Anyone seeing the bespoke Blue Cross campaign posters and new release posters (Lawless on DVD, for example) displayed front of house last Friday would not have expected it to close its doors this week.

Goof

RoboRat wrote: »

Seriously? You are getting at Golden Discs? I hope the staff get paid but if they don't, they might get something from the Department of Social Protection Social Insurance Fund.

You may think its classless opportunism but I think this is just good marketing, furthermore they are also donating to the Lilly Mae appeal. Perhaps that is why they are still in business....

Yeah the words good and marketing probably don't need to appear in the same sentence. Effective, cynical, measured, opportunist - maybe, good - no. The Lily Mae appeal was accepting donations from HMV's competitors on Monday before they went into administration too. And I'm pretty sure the cause has gotten plenty of donations from people who didn't feel the need to make a public statement on it. Fair play to them, it's a fantastic cause but read between the lines.

Golden Discs are still in business because they sell things at a price that doesn't put them out of pocket, not because they are some sort of ethical and marketing geniuses. HMV went toe to toe with the Internet and sold their products at unsustainable margins. In this country,at least, they signed leases on properties with astronomical rents. Now their staff haven't been paid since Christmas and are owed all sorts of things holidays, pensions etc. Oh and I forgot, some moany ****ers can't redeem vouchers they bought at christmas from a company that gave a fairly well publicised warning that they were going to struggle to continue as a going conern on December the 8th!

Also any politician trying to make political capital out of the vouchers - HMV's overall loss in Ireland last year was pretty much in line with what VAT was increased by in December 2011. Retail in this country is being strangled, HMV will be the first of many. Maybe people should try redeem their HMV vouchers in the Dail bar?

Sorry for the rant, but their are no winners in this. And maybe while people are sitting in, in a shop in Limerick to get paid, the "good marketing" brigade should have waited a couple of days before dancing on their grave.

RoboRat

it's a fantastic cause but read between the lines.

Don't kid yourself, any company involved in a good cause does it for a reason. The charities are also more than happy to accept this money so its quid pro quo and leaves everybody happy... except the naysayers.

Golden Discs are still in business because they sell things at a price that doesn't put them out of pocket, not because they are some sort of ethical and marketing geniuses.

Never said they were but the the bottom line is they are still in business.

Oh and I forgot, some moany ****ers can't redeem vouchers they bought at christmas from a company that gave a fairly well publicised warning that they were going to struggle to continue as a going conern on December the 8th!

So being peeved about the fact that a company wont honour a voucher makes you a moany f*****? Jesus, I completely emphasise with anyone who has a voucher and cant use it. I am not taking away from the staff who haven't been paid, of course that is terrible and a LOT worse than not being able to use a voucher but you can feel for both... the are not mutually exclusive.

Also, can you show me where they made such warnings? I never heard any such warnings. If they did, I doubt they would have lasted until Christmas as their share price would be worth nothing and nobody would have bought the vouchers in the first place.

I know that people are saying that they had to sell vouchers but I disagree, they could have said there was an issue with their vouchers or the voucher software or something along those lines rather than accepting money for vouchers that they knew wouldn't be honoured.

Goof

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegriffiths/2011/12/19/hmv-group-interims/

There are also articles from the Irish times, financial times, guardian etc if you want them. It was a huge story pre Christmas.

Also not having a go at you fella. Just finding that the job losses not being the major story here a bit unpalatable. Anyway just thinking of my mates in the HMVs around.

Goof

Also their share price did collapse on this story, hence the administration they are in.

RoboRat

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielny...roup-interims/

There are also articles from the Irish times, financial times, guardian etc if you want them. It was a huge story pre Christmas.

Fair enough.

Also not having a go at you fella. Just finding that the job losses not being the major story here a bit unpalatable. Anyway just thinking of my mates in the HMVs around.

I can understand that and as I said, the job losses are a lot harder to accept than the voucher issue but I am also looking at the people who have bugger all these days and might have got a voucher only to realise its worth nothing.

I must confess that I also have an ulterior motive for my defence of marketing as I work in it. I know its soulless, cynical, opportunist etc and I am the first person to say so.

Anyhow, hope your mates get sorted and they get another job as soon as possible.

JustAddWater

Goof wrote: »

Oh and I forgot, some moany ****ers can't redeem vouchers they bought at christmas from a company that gave a fairly well publicised warning that they were going to struggle to continue as a going conern on December the 8th!

THEY hardly went to HMV and bought themselves a voucher to use themselves a few weeks later.

There was this thing on a few weeks back, on dec 25th, not sure if you know, but it's called christmas

How it works, is, you buy somebody a gift and give it to them for them to use as and how they see fit

There'll always be people worse off, but if I hurt my leg, i'm perfectly entitled to moan about it if I want. Just because little timmy had his leg blown off in 'nam doesn't mean I can't be upset if I hurt myself

Point is, yes, nobody wins in this situation, but to call people moany f**kers is disrespectful at best. HMV poorly handled the situation and people should be allowed to vent if they choose. Some people probably got a voucher as a gift and didn't use it in time, all sort of circumstances that you (or I) don't know about

Julez

With all the companies offering services for HMV vouchers at the moment it might be an idea to create a thread with places accepting the vouchers and for what. Don't know where exactly to put it though?

Basq

Julez wrote: »

With all the companies offering services for HMV vouchers at the moment it might be an idea to create a thread with places accepting the vouchers and for what. Don't know where exactly to put it though?

This is being kept updated AFAIK..

Goof

Good for them. Hope they get sorted.

ben101

the groutch wrote: »

the thing is though that it wasnt HMV that chose are choosing not to honour the vouchers, it's the receiver or administrator whose job is to maximise the repayments for the creditors on whose behalf they were appointed.

btw I know they weren't technically in receivership/administration on Tuesday, but I'd prefer not continue the bickering over technicalities.

That makes no sense whatsoever.They broke the law ,those vouchers are like a contract between the customer and HMV Ireland which they refused to honour ,as well as retaining staff they knew wouldn't get paid and to me looks like they deliberately went into receivership to avoid paying out as well as operating through xmas well knowing they probaably wouldn't make it.These actions aren't "technicalities".They are criminal acts,deliberately trading and accepting money for goods you have no intention of honouring ,as i said before,is wreckless trading and sharp pracrice.If it can be proven their actions were deliberate ,they were breaking the law.
And anyway i think we should shift the attention from feckin' vouchers.As whippet commented earlier its all those staff that we should be thinking about ,HMV's actions were possibly criminal but definitely immoral.All those families who borrowed on the strentgh of a big salary for xmas work o/t and bonuses are now in SERIOUS financial difficulty and focus should be on what the government are going to do to help.

guttenberg

ben101 wrote: »

That makes no sense whatsoever.They broke the law ,those vouchers are like a contract between the customer and HMV Ireland which they refused to honour ,as well as retaining staff they knew wouldn't get paid and to me looks like they deliberately went into receivership to avoid paying out as well as operating through xmas well knowing they probaably wouldn't make it.These actions aren't "technicalities".They are criminal acts,deliberately trading and accepting money for goods you have no intention of honouring ,as i said before,is wreckless trading and sharp pracrice.If it can be proven their actions were deliberate ,they were breaking the law.
And anyway i think we should shift the attention from feckin' vouchers.As whippet commented earlier its all those staff that we should be thinking about ,HMV's actions were possibly criminal but definitely immoral.All those families who borrowed on the strentgh of a big salary for xmas work o/t and bonuses are now in SERIOUS financial difficulty and focus should be on what the government are going to do to help.

I know this isn't the Legal forum but can you quote any laws that you feel HMV broke by the vouchers debacle? They may have had financial concerns for some time, but in such cases, business as usual is the best practise hoping the problems can be resolved. Sometimes they don't and people can unfortunately lose out, but claiming this was one big criminal conspiracy is rubbish IMO.