Hmv

Jasper79

Mr Trade In wrote: »

One of two things is happening here either the stores are closed for good due to the voucher debacle or they are closed to reprice and reset stock for a closing down sale.

Holding Page on the site below.

Saw that page alright, however it doesn't mention HMV Ireland Ltd.

Nody

Jasper79 wrote: »

Saw that page alright, however it doesn't mention HMV Ireland Ltd.

They are correcting that mistake right now I'd say (was mentioned on another site that 99% of all HMV Ireland stock is from HMV UK and Ireland was reported as a region ala Southern England etc. set up as a seperate legal entity purely for tax purposes)...

Basq

That's because HMV Ireland (HMV Singapore etc) is a seperate jurisdiction..

Mr Trade In

Jasper79 wrote: »

Saw that page alright, however it doesn't mention HMV Ireland Ltd.

The UK, Ireland, Hong Kong and Singapore stores are under the joint title of HMV GROUP PLC. However the Deloitte group only covers the UK administration so while the company as a whole is indeed in Administration despite what a lot of people seem to think no company has been assigned to the Irish stores as of yet. God help the staff if it is Price Waterhouse Coopers.

Esoteric_

omnithanos wrote: »

What about all the people who have already lost their jobs and can ill afford any further losses. People can just about manage on the dole without losing little luxuries such as gift cards they may have got over christmas.

It's a horrible situation, but it's not the store staff's fault, they're all just regular retail workers like you or me, with no input toward the decision to close.

Cabaal

omnithanos wrote: »

What about all the people who have already lost their jobs and can ill afford any further losses. People can just about manage on the dole without losing little luxuries such as gift cards they may have got over christmas.

Thats no excuse to give abuse to staff who are experiencing a very upsetting time in their life,

For those that that have already lost your jobs then you know how hard this time can be and you know that lower level staff don't call the shots!

Sure you can be a dick to the staff but it benefits nobody and only shows that you're scum of a human for doing so imho

Esoteric_

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats no excuse to give abuse to staff who are experiencing a very upsetting time in their life,

For those that that have already lost your jobs then you know how hard this time can be and you know that lower level staff don't call the shots!

Sure you can be a dick to the staff but it benefits nobody and only shows that you're scum of a human for doing so imho

Also bear in mind that if you're a dick to staff, they can just flat out refuse to serve you, or have security remove you. Believe me, I've done it on numerous occasions, and all that happens is the person giving abuse ends up flustered, upset and embarrassed. Giving abuse to staff never works. It either makes you look like a twat, or backfires on you.

omnithanos

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Also bear in mind that if you're a dick to staff, they can just flat out refuse to serve you, or have security remove you. Believe me, I've done it on numerous occasions, and all that happens is the person giving abuse ends up flustered, upset and embarrassed. Giving abuse to staff never works. It either makes you look like a twat, or backfires on you.

Nobody said anything about being rude to staff. It's lucky for them that the voucher system was shut down beyond their control yesterday otherwise they would have been implicit an illegal activity by not accepting valid vouchers.

Esoteric_

omnithanos wrote: »

Nobody said anything about being rude to staff. It's lucky for them that the voucher system was shut down beyond their control yesterday otherwise they would have been implicit an illegal activity by not accepting valid vouchers.

I'm pretty sure 'invitation to treat' covers the legality issues. Staff are under no legal obligation to serve anyone.

mervuedude

According to the "news at one" HMV shops are closed in Ireland and while they hope to reopen soon, they cannot say when. It is expected that they will go to the High Court before they reopen and look for the same protection as their sister company in the UK. They will do this so as not to honour any vouchers.

I don't have any vouchers so I'm not talking through my pocket, but I hate these scumbag corporations. One of the women I work with went into the store on Monday evening to give back a box set she got as a present and they gave her a voucher for it. She may as well have thrown the box set into the Liffey, it would have been quicker than having to queue up and ask for a voucher.

omnithanos

LyndaMcL wrote: »

I'm pretty sure 'invitation to treat' covers the legality issues. Staff are under no legal obligation to serve anyone.

Hand them the product you wish to purchase and when it is obvious they aren't refusing your custom produce the vouchers. That covers that clause.

They can't insist on a cash payment if the vouchers should be legally accepted. Remember Cary Grant paid for his train ticket with stamps.

Esoteric_

omnithanos wrote: »

Hand them the product you wish to purchase and when it is obvious they aren't refusing your custom produce the vouchers. That covers that clause.

They can't insist on a cash payment if the vouchers should be legally accepted. Remember Cary Grant paid for his train ticket with stamps.

That doesn't cover it. They can refuse at any point up until cash or another method of payment has already been made and accepted.

omnithanos

LyndaMcL wrote: »

That doesn't cover it. They can refuse at any point up until cash or another method of payment has already been made and accepted.

Yes take out your sweaty wad of cash first then change your mind and say I think I'll use me vouchers govnor.

Esoteric_

omnithanos wrote: »

Yes take out your sweaty wad of cash first then change your mind and say I think I'll use me vouchers govnor.

Until they accept the vouchers as payment, no contract has been formed.

omnithanos

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Until they accept the vouchers as payment, no contract has been formed.

But it was illegal for them not to accept the vouchers as payment on Monday.
I think the owners should be in jail.

Let me sleep on it I'll give you my answer in the morning,
I gotta know right now.

Corruptedmorals

omnithanos wrote: »

Yes take out your sweaty wad of cash first then change your mind and say I think I'll use me vouchers govnor.

That isn't how invitation to treat works. What happens in your scenario is the cashier will say 'We cannot accept gift vouchers'. Transaction refused. No crimes committed or laws broken. You can OFFER what you want- money, vouchers, stones, leaves. The retailer can refuse it.

omnithanos

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

That isn't how invitation to treat works. What happens in your scenario is the cashier will say 'We cannot accept gift vouchers'. Transaction refused. No crimes committed or laws broken. You can OFFER what you want- money, vouchers, stones, leaves. The retailer can refuse it.

It's stealing on their behalf though plain and simple isn't it.

omnithanos

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

That isn't how invitation to treat works. What happens in your scenario is the cashier will say 'We cannot accept gift vouchers'. Transaction refused. No crimes committed or laws broken. You can OFFER what you want- money, vouchers, stones, leaves. The retailer can refuse it.

I don't understand what form of payment has to do with whether they agree to sell an item or not. It's the item that the invitation to treat revolves around surely.

omnithanos

If the voucher isn't accepted then why can't you ask for a refund of the price of the voucher?

Esoteric_

omnithanos wrote: »

If the voucher isn't accepted then why can't you ask for a refund of the price of the voucher?

Invitation to treat revolves around the item and the payment offered. That's the invitation, you are invited to make an offer of payment for the item. They can choose to accept or refuse this offer.

NCA say it's illegal, but NCA also (iirc) said that Littlewoods should honour an expensive table and chair set being sold for 21 euro after it was incorrectly advertised. They are not always right.

The question about refunds, I'm unsure of. The item has to be fit for use, and the voucher isn't fit for use if you cannot use it. They could possibly get around this for the moment by saying that they are not accepting it 'yet,' but will at a later date.

Corruptedmorals

omnithanos wrote: »

If the voucher isn't accepted then why can't you ask for a refund of the price of the voucher?

Gift cards cannot be refunded or exchanged for cash, it says it on the back of them- even in a normal functioning store. It negates the whole point of it, the gift voucher locks you in to a particular store/bunch of stores. In this case, HMV are not issuing refunds. They essentially are freezing their cash reserves from depleting- they will give their products in exchange for an increase in their cash/credit reserves. In the UK they are acting in accordance with standard administration procedures. In the case of Ireland, yesterday they were ordered to follow suit and did so. Today it is not clear if the administration order is for the whole group and therefore including HMV Ireland, or just HMV UK and its subsidiaries. Hence closure of Irish stores- they followed orders, but those orders were probably in error for those stores. Not their fault.

Gift card holders are unsecured creditors. That means they come after Revenue, suppliers and staff and are lumped in with a whole lot of others. Basically, they are not a priority.

athtrasna

Ciarachino wrote: »

Whatever about our vouchers I heard the organisers of Tiny Dancer for Lily Mae on the radio this morning! €27000 owed to them by HMV.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/lily-mae-supporters-fear-hmv-wont-pay-tiny-dancer-invoice-581348.html

This is absolutely disgusting :mad:

omnithanos

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Gift cards cannot be refunded or exchanged for cash, it says it on the back of them- even in a normal functioning store. It negates the whole point of it, the gift voucher locks you in to a particular store/bunch of stores. In this case, HMV are not issuing refunds. They essentially are freezing their cash reserves from depleting- they will give their products in exchange for an increase in their cash/credit reserves. In the UK they are acting in accordance with standard administration procedures. In the case of Ireland, yesterday they were ordered to follow suit and did so. Today it is not clear if the administration order is for the whole group and therefore including HMV Ireland, or just HMV UK and its subsidiaries. Hence closure of Irish stores- they followed orders, but those orders were probably in error for those stores. Not their fault.

Gift card holders are unsecured creditors. That means they come after Revenue, suppliers and staff and are lumped in with a whole lot of others. Basically, they are not a priority.

Yes not a priority when the place is in administration which this is not. I'd rather buy a cd from the viper then from HMV at the moment.

daheff

I think its a disgrace the way HMV are doing this. Also that they had allowed the issue of gift vouchers right up to the time they went into administration is bordering on illegal (selling under false pretences- taking money knowing that you will refuse to honour the terms of the voucher the next day).


However from a business's perspective, selling gift vouchers is effectively making people a creditor of the company. Voucher holders can redeem their voucher in exchange for goods & services of the company. A company can refuse to pay a creditor at any time it chooses. The only way to make the company discharge its debt in this case is via the courts. I think (and i'm open to correction here) that you cant bring a company through the courts while its in administration.


Mostly gift vouchers have a redeem by/expiry date on them. I very much doubt any have a clause that says they wont accept them if the company goes into administration!

omnithanos

LyndaMcL wrote: »

.

NCA say it's illegal, but NCA also (iirc) said that Littlewoods should honour an expensive table and chair set being sold for 21 euro after it was incorrectly advertised. They are not always right.

Courts sold me an insurance policy on a dining room set for £30 saying that if I didn't make a claim in 3 years the £30 would be given back. It didn't make sense until they closed down a month or two after.

Corruptedmorals

daheff wrote: »

Mostly gift vouchers have a redeem by/expiry date on them. I very much doubt any have a clause that says they wont accept them if the company goes into administration!

They tend to have a clause which states that the company reserves the right to alter the terms and conditions of the voucher without notice as neccessary. In any case, stores are under no legal obligation to accept 'legal tender'- cash. Or even to give change. Same thing, or vouchers either.

P_1

I wonder if anybody who tried to use a voucher yesterday would have a case for suing HMV (or the administrators).

They would have witnesses to them trying to use them (other customers and the staff who had to refuse them) and it's been proven that HMV still had to accept them in its Irish stores yesterday.

Anyone of a legal mind reckon that this might work?

Edit, after reading Corruptedmoral's above post, they might have their backsides covered by clauses in the T's and C's of the Gift vouchers

the_syco

daheff wrote: »

Mostly gift vouchers have a redeem by/expiry date on them. I very much doubt any have a clause that says they wont accept them if the company goes into administration!

If a company goes into administration, the Administrator are generally the owners, and the (new) owners don't have to accept HMV vouchers.

P_1

the_syco wrote: »

If a company goes into administration, the Administrator are generally the owners, and the (new) owners don't have to accept HMV vouchers.

The issue is that the company hasn't yet gone into administration though (the Irish HMV that is)

Eod100

If HMV are closing you wonder how places like Golden Discs and Xtravision will survive?