The offside law

Liam O

Some Journo (Mark Dennis I think) on Sky Sports this morning claims that Evan's own goal yesterday was a legitimate goal because the law says that Cisse didn't touch the ball and that Fergie doesn't know the offside rule. If that is what the refs are being told it's a bit ridiculous imo as if a player gets involved in any way or have the potential to be involved it's definitely offside as far as I'm concerned.

What's everyone else's interpretation of the rule? It's far too much a grey area atm with the law talking about referee's opinion anyway.

Leiva

It's was a perfectly good goal.

Fergie was wrong.

Read from page 11 onwards:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_11_offside_en_47383.pdf

CSF

Leiva wrote: »

It's was a perfectly good goal.

Fergie was wrong.

I think the OP might have been looking for a bit of reasoning. Otherwise he'd probably just have created a poll

Caveman1

Leiva wrote: »

It's was a perfectly good goal.

Fergie was wrong.

:eek:

Surely SAF is never wrong.

Paul Tergat

How he is not interfering with play is beyond me. No way is that a goal.

Mitch Connor

i think it is the case of the law being an ass.

Fact is if Cisse wasnt there then Evans isn't stretching for it as he did do. Cisse's pressence effected the game thus, imo, he should have been considered active.

I can see why it was given, but it is the type of goal that I think should be given as offside.

greendom

If you're level with the last defender, it's not offside and linesmen are supposed to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker. Evans had a good hold of Cisse so i reckon that counts as being level or at least to give enough doubt to favour the striker.

Rekop dog

Right decision
Ridiculous rule
/thread

matrim

Leiva wrote: »

It's was a perfectly good goal.

Fergie was wrong.

Read from page 11 onwards:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_11_offside_en_47383.pdf

From your own link

While in an offside position, there are three things a
player cannot do:
interfere with play
interfere with an opponent
gain an advantage by being in the offside position

Surely the fact that there was a bit of pushing / holding between Evans and Cisse that means he was offside

greendom

matrim wrote: »

From your own link



Surely the fact that there was a bit of pushing / holding between Evans and Cisse that means he was offside

But the opponent was interfering with him

.jacksparrow.

matrim wrote: »

From your own link



Surely the fact that there was a bit of pushing / holding between Evans and Cisse that means he was offside

No if anything Evans was pulling cisse which is clear from the replay,which I would believe over Fergusons word.

Liam O

Leiva wrote: »

It's was a perfectly good goal.

Fergie was wrong.

Read from page 11 onwards:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_11_offside_en_47383.pdf

"Making a gesture or movement which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent"

honestly don't see how that rule was not broken and the only thing that justifies the referee's decision is the fact it says referee's opinion in the rule.

dfx-

Alternatively Evans could just clear the ball properly instead of stumbling over it.

Right decision and any rule that promotes goals is a good one. What if the ball runs through to Cisse but he steps over or away from it (as inactive players often do) and someone else sneaks in. Legitimate goal with a player standing offside.

Liam O wrote: »

What's everyone else's interpretation of the rule? It's far too much a grey area atm with the law talking about referee's opinion anyway.

All the laws of football have the referee's opinion at their heart.

Leiva

Mike Dean made a fantastic call. Wish more refs would hold their bottle like that.

Liam O

dfx- wrote: »

Alternatively Evans could just clear the ball properly instead of stumbling over it.

Right decision and any rule that promotes goals is a good one. What if the ball runs through to Cisse but he steps over or way from it (as inactive players often do) and someone else sneaks in. Legitimate goal with a player standing offside.

Then he's still interfering with play as he's distracting the defender/goalkeeper with his movement.

Chucky the tree

Should have been a penatly anyway for evans pushing Cisse.

Macca07

What would've happened if Evans just moved out of the way and let the ball go to Cisse? Cisse would've touched the ball and it would've been offside.

It was a difficult one to call, and I don't think there would be much of an argument this morning if it was disallowed. The fact of the matter is that Cisse was in an offside position when the balled was played in his direction, whether or not it was a pass or a shot. Evans had to play the ball, but if Cisse wasn't standing there, then he could've left it.

United fans will say it should've been disallowed, ABUs will say it was a legitimate goal.

Jax Teller

Cisse standing in an offside position didn't affect Evans's ability to clear the ball .

He should have cleared it . Move on .

Stretford End did a good unbiased analysis of the goal I thought .

http://www.stretford-end.com/2012/12/man-united-4-3-newcastle-united/

stesaurus

Jax Teller wrote: »

Cisse standing in an offside position didn't affect Evans's ability to clear the ball .

He should have cleared it . Move on .

Stretford End did a good unbiased analysis of the goal I thought .

http://www.stretford-end.com/2012/12/man-united-4-3-newcastle-united/

Of course it did. It panicked him into attempting a clearance. Had Cisse not have been there he would have acted differently, hence he's interferring with play.
Penalty would have been very soft but I could accept that.

Hammer Archer

Macca07 wrote: »

United fans will say it should've been disallowed, ABUs will say it was a legitimate goal.

You do realise there are people who are neither Man Utd fans nor ABUs. I'm neither and I do think it was correctly allowed. If Cissé was the one doing the holding I'd say otherwise.
However, with regards to the OP, the offside rule seriously needs to be clarified.

Liam O

Hammer Archer wrote: »

You do realise there are people who are neither Man Utd fans nor ABUs. I'm neither and I do think it was correctly allowed. If Cissé was the one doing the holding I'd say otherwise.
However, with regards to the OP, the offside rule seriously needs to be clarified.

But surely the fact Evans felt he had to hold Cisse to stop him getting to the ball brings Cisse to involvement?

Pro. F

"Making a gesture or movement which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent"

Was Cisse in an offside position? Yes, obviously.
Did his movement distract Evans? Yes, obviously.

Mike Dean must have been of the opinion that either Cisse wasn't in an offside position or that his movement didn't distract Evans. Both of those opinions are obviously wrong.

It was the right decision, sure you could make a case that anyone in an offside position has the potential to distract a defender. Often a defender is drawn over to a player in an offside position giving another player more space to get through on goal, play a through ball to another player etc etc.

The rule should either be your offside if your in an offside position as it once was or else the ruled should be applied the way it was yesterday. There is no middle ground.

Skylinehead

Liam O wrote: »

But surely the fact Evans felt he had to hold Cisse to stop him getting to the ball brings Cisse to involvement?

Penalty and a red card so. Would you rather that?

Liam O

Skylinehead wrote: »

Penalty and a red card so. Would you rather that?

That's a separate incident and it wasn't a foul.

Pro. F

Anahi Silly Gloom wrote: »

It was the right decision, sure you could make a case that anyone in an offside position has the potential to distract a defender. Often a defender is drawn over to a player in an offside position giving another player more space to get through on goal, play a through ball to another player etc etc.

And when that happens it is offside. That's what the law says.

Anahi Silly Gloom wrote: »

The rule should either be your offside if your in an offside position as it once was or else the ruled should be applied the way it was yesterday. There is no middle ground.

You might think it should be your way but it isn't. The law is clear, Cisse was offside. The fact you don't like that law doesn't mean the ref's call was correct.

Drumpot

I wonder what sort of response there would be had it been Rooney that had scored the goal against Newcastle . . .

As a united fan I was disgusted it was allowed, but thankfully it didnt matter in the end. I challange any fan to be satisfied to accept a goal like that as legitimate against their club . .

Was Cisse interfering in play ?

Why did Evans go for the ball ? More to the point he had to stretch for the ball because Cisse was ahead of him in an offside position!

In all scenarios if Cisse isnt offside there is no goal scored . . The benefit to the attacker in this scenario contradicts the whole point of having offside in the first place.

An own goal was scored 100% because an opponent was in a dangerous offside position . .

I suggest that a sticky thread be created for controversial moments in EPL matches so we dont need to keep getting subjected to loads of anti united threads being started everytime theres an incident in a United game that gives ABUs fodder to attack the club. Its amazing how important protecting refs or discussions on the rules of the game become when they happen in United games, so why not make it easy for people to have a place to discuss them as opposed to have the forum filled with selective disgust every so often . .

Skylinehead

Liam O wrote: »

That's a separate incident and it wasn't a foul.

How was it not a foul? He's clearly holding onto him.

Liam O

Skylinehead wrote: »

How was it not a foul? He's clearly holding onto him.

I'd hardly call that holding, he barely touches him, not a foul by any means.

764dak

There was something similar from the 2009 Confederations' Cup in a match between Italy and the USA. An Italian player was in an offside position and the ball was being sent to him. The USA's Jonathan Bornstein didn't want the ball to reach that player so stretched out and accidentally scored an own goal. However, the referee disallowed the goal because the only reason why Bornstein stretched for the ball was because of the Italian player in the offside position.

Xavi6

Drumpot wrote: »

I wonder what sort of response there would be had it been Rooney that had scored the goal against Newcastle . . .

Do you not get tired of playing the poor, wronged, "world is against us" victim card?

Just asking because I get bored reading it.

gnfnrhead

Liam O wrote: »

That's a separate incident and it wasn't a foul.

Holding someone to stop them getting the ball is a pretty clear foul.

The rule is stupid, but based on it's current wording, I'd say it was the right call.

Don't see what was wrong with the old version of simply being past the last defender = offside.

Pro. F

gnfnrhead wrote: »

The rule is stupid, but based on it's current wording, I'd say it was the right call.

What wording are you referring to here?

mags1962

So Evra is pushed up to play Cisse offside but decides to go for the ball to stop it getting to an offside player??????
More likely he was trying to stop a direct effort on goal and made a hash of it and so an own goal resulted, correct decision.
You can go through numerous scenarios and arguments for and against but the ref gave the goal and you can not undo that decision even if Ferguson thinks he can. It's all about putting pressure on the officials to help his adgenda nothing more.

theoneeyedman

Liam O wrote: »

"Making a gesture or movement which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent"

honestly don't see how that rule was not broken and the only thing that justifies the referee's decision is the fact it says referee's opinion in the rule.

Is there anything in that rule book about fcuking the ref going off and in the field at halftime or verbally harranging the linesman and fourth official, or is that ok now??

Dempsey

Its offside according the rules, another case for microphoning up the officials because I'd love to know what rule they were discussing when they changed their minds. Still though, Ferguson's behaviour should have been reported by the referee. Mike Dean seems to using a different rulebook to everyone else.

SantryRed

I thought it was offside. Cisse being in that position clearly effects Evans and his positioning and he felt he had to do something as Cisse would have tapped it in if he doesn't get to it. I was shocked the offside was overturned.

It's similar to the Torres offside goal when Liverpool played Stoke at Anfield a couple of years ago. When the ball was crossed, an offside Torres ran at the ball, causing Sorensen to freeze, and the ball went it.

Liam O

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Is there anything in that rule book about fcuking the ref going off and in the field at halftime or verbally harranging the linesman and fourth official, or is that ok now??

Yeah I thought the Newcastle staff were out of order too.

Fuhrer

FIFA clarified what interfering with play meant ages ago.

the International Board has provided detailed definitions of the ways in which a player may become involved in active play (Law 11, International Board Decision 2). On August 17, 2005, a Circular from the FIFA further clarified some of the confusion regarding whether "touching the ball" was a requirement for "interfering with play" (emphasis added):
A player in an offside position may be penalized before playing or touching the ball if, in the opinion of the referee, no other teammate in an onside position has the opportunity to play the ball.
If an opponent becomes involved in the play and if, in the opinion of the referee, there is potential for physical contact, the player in the offside position shall be penalized for interfering with an opponent.

Understandable that Mike Dean in the heat of the moment made a mistake.

Unforgivably moronic that Graham Poll would come out laughing at people who rightly judged the decision a mistake, the same Graham Poll who at once stage in his professional Career seemed to think it was three yellow cards that got you sent off, not two.

The_Kew_Tour

Mike Dean made a mistake. Crap happens. Thankfully did not cost us 3 points.

Predalien

In my opinion it's offside because Evans intercepts to prevent the ball getting to the player in an offside position, so clearly the attacking player was interfering with play. However a certain amount of justice occurred because Evans was fouling the attacker anyway so it should have been a penalty. Very surprised Fergie's behaviour hasn't been punished, he was way over the top.

Iang87

It appears the issue here is people want the rules used to the letter of the law. No problem.

Penalty Newcastle, sorted.

also since we can deem evans to be the last man as there was no others between him and goal we also need to give him a red card.


If rules are to be followed to the letter of the law, they all need to be not just the ones that suit ferguson and united in that moment

Will I Amnt

Anyone that thinks Cisse wasn't interfering with play really doesn't have a clue or doesn't believe what they're saying themselves.

@IanG87
If we're applying the letter of the law Jonny Evans "foul" on Cisse would be cancelled out by the fact he was in an offside position.

Iang87

i'm sorry please find me the line in the rules where pushing a man is allowed

Will I Amnt

Iang87 wrote: »

i'm sorry please find me the line in the rules where pushing a man is allowed

If he's already in an offside position it means f**k all. You could still get booked or sent off if it was a malicious foul but if it's offside there's no penalty or red card for the push.

Iang87

lad he started onside and got pushed offside thats my point, I only seen it the once its how i seen it and I think it was le tissier said the same on ssn

Will I Amnt

Iang87 wrote: »

lad he started onside and got pushed offside thats my point, I only seen it the once its how i seen it and I think it was le tissier said the same on ssn

He was in front of Evans anyway, he just got pushed more offside than he already was.

Turtyturd

I wanna hear DB1O's take on this.

Will I Amnt

Turtyturd wrote: »

I wanna hear DB1O's take on this.

Think he said Evans was offside :pac:

Fromthetrees

No way should the goal have been given in my opinion, if it had happened to Liverpool I would feel very aggrieved.

The old offside rule was so rigid that they changed it to give the attacking team a fairer chance. If a goal like this is given now all the time than the offside rule will become almost defunct. You could get a striker standing a metre off the goal line trying to block the keepers line of sight whilst also forcing the defending team to hold a much deeper line, when the ball breaks then the striker who's interfering with the keeper and defense can just stroll back onside and let someone else score.

Interfering with play is quite subjective in nature but the rule has probably strayed too far from the original offside law in my opinion. If this goal doesn't meet the definition of what offside is than I think it's actually a separate rule and should be called something new.

NIMAN

What is the law was done away with?

I always wondered would it affect the game that much? It would take out the pressure on linesmen to get sometimes microscopic decisions right.

Of course many will say about guys standing in the box all game, but would they really? These are pro's we're talking about, not guys playing park football. They will move around and take up positions/make runs just like they do now.