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Will my child be penalized for not having a Baptismal Cert?

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  • 27-12-2012 4:22pm
    #1
    Sporkie
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭


    Hi,
    I'm having a child soon, and unsure of how this works: If we don't have the baby baptized in the Catholic Church, will he or she face any problems growing up here? I don't know how common it is to need one for school registration or similar functions.


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    #2
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,113 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    As far as I know a baptismal cert is needed for certain schools. Other than that, theres no real reason, you can decide not to go ahead with communion/confirmation if that is what you want.


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    #3
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Depends if you want to send them to the local catholic school. If you don't, then no problem. Check out the other schools in the area and out their name down early to avoid future issues.


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    #4
    How Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭How Strange


    As others have said it makes no difference unless you want to send them to a catholic school. Hopefully we'll see more non or multi denominational schools in the next few years.


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    #5
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    How Strange wrote: »
    As others have said it makes no difference unless you want to send them to a catholic school.

    or Protestant / COI school, they're not quite so strict but it seems quite clear that having a baptismal cert is still an advantage there.


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    #6
    IMightKnow
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭IMightKnow


    I can tell you with absolute certainty that you don't need a baptismal cert for any of the schools in my area, including the catholic ones.


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    #7
    Mary28
    Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭Mary28


    In many parts of Dublin schools are oversubscribed. If you want your child to go to a catholic school then check their policy. Our local catholic school accepts non catholics but catholics (baptised) get 1st preference. We baptised our 4 yr old just last month as he has no hope of getting into the local catholic school without being baptised despite living across the road from it as it is oversubscribed. I did not want to be left with no option. He's about 150 on a waiting list for an edu together school so I wanted to guarantee a place somewhere for him.


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    #8
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    all schools accept non catholic students...but they are way down the waiting list.

    but educate together schools are popping up everywhere. we're signed up for one that hasn't even opened yet.


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    #9
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    Wow...I had no idea that religious discrimination was still legal in Ireland.


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    #10
    F1ngers
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭F1ngers


    Hannibal Smith wrote: »
    ...but they are way down the waiting list.

    No they're not. You can't discriminate against anyone on the basis of their religion.

    My son isn't baptised and he went to a catholic school, along with his baptised friends.


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    #11
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    If you have your heart set on a particular school your best bet is to contact them directly and ask them what their procedure is. I know some schools are strict but equally there are some who aren't. Our local boys schools ( catholic ) is crying out for kids and will take any child bapthised or not.


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    #12
    liliq
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭liliq


    F1ngers wrote: »
    No they're not. You can't discriminate against anyone on the basis of their religion.

    Unfortunately schools can, and do, discriminate against people based on their religion. They are the only institutions in the country that can do so. There do seem to be changes afoot though, at last.


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    #13
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,361 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    OP, if you live in a city probably not much of an issue but it could be an issue in small towns or rural areas.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #14
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    F1ngers wrote: »

    No they're not. You can't discriminate against anyone on the basis of their religion.

    My son isn't baptised and he went to a catholic school, along with his baptised friends.

    each school set their requirements for entry...children of the parish, children of the faith, siblings of former pupils...children not of the faith in some schools are down the list past children outside the parish. if you are not of the faith, but of the parish area you get in.


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    #15
    Agent Smith
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 21,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭Agent Smith


    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    Wow...I had no idea that religious discrimination was still legal in Ireland.

    Only in Education. Try Having a policy of Not Employing Jews, for example, and see how quickly you end up in court.


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    #16
    kodoherty93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭kodoherty93


    I know with local girls where they have massive class something like 32 in my sisters class two years ago. Perference sister who were catholics, then catholics from area next, Catholics from other areas next, non catholics from local area and finally non catholics from anywhere last.

    Like its a piece of paper that gives your child a better chance of schooling then go for it


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    #17
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Agent Smith wrote: »
    Only in Education. Try Having a policy of Not Employing Jews, for example, and see how quickly you end up in court.

    Actually in any institution that is faith based. That includes schools and hospitals with regard to employment. Clubs also have exemptions to allow them to practise religious discrimination.
    An educational establishment shall not discriminate
    ...
    where it refuses to admit as a student a person who is not of that denomination and, in the case of a refusal, it is proved that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school
    cf: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0007.html#sec7


    A religious, educational or medical institution which is under the direction or control of a body established for religious purposes or whose objectives include the provision of services in an environment which promotes certain religious values shall not be taken to discriminate ...
    where it is reasonable to do so in order to maintain the religious ethos of the institution
    cf: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0021/sec0037.html#sec37

    So the Mater hospital, any Catholic school, or any other church run organisation can actually refuse to employ a jew, an atheist, an unmarried mother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eileen_Flynn - the wording in the two acts above is almost identical to the judge's ruling when she challenged for unfair dismissal), or pretty much anyone on other grounds once they profess that it is essential to their ethos.

    And any religious run school can refuse to enrol a child who is not of their faith. Legally.

    [edit]Just a clarification before the backlash - I'm not suggesting that the Mater (or any other hospital that I am aware of) has done this - I'm just say they can.


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    #18
    myparenting101
    Site Banned Posts: 14 ✭myparenting101


    It's better to have the certificate in case you need it.


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    #19
    How Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭How Strange


    It's not just a certificate it's a certificate of baptism in the catholic church and faith. As long as people continue to just go with the flow and christen their children in a hedging your bets sort of way nothing significant will change as regards primary education in this country.

    You're either catholic or you're not.


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    #20
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    Try sending Jr to an Educate Together school, I send 2 of mine and their super


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    #21
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Neither of mine are baptised and they got into the 'local' school which like 92% of all primary schools in the country is catholic, but that was a few years ago and Ireland has had a baby boom.

    Best thing you can to is request a copy of the enrollment policies of the schools you would consider, they have to have one and have to give you a copy and you can also ask what their intake for the year your child would start school and how heavily subscribed the school is.

    It is very wrong that any parent would have to consider signing up their child for a life time membership of any religion just to access education in the local school.


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    #22
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    How Strange wrote: »
    It's not just a certificate it's a certificate of baptism in the catholic church and faith. As long as people continue to just go with the flow and christen their children in a hedging your bets sort of way nothing significant will change as regards primary education in this country.

    You're either catholic or you're not.
    I completely agree. If people baptize their children just because of the Church's stranglehold on primary education it just perpetuates the problem. The more children who aren't baptised gives more strength to the move towards inclusive education.


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    #23
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    gcgirl wrote: »
    Try sending Jr to an Educate Together school, I send 2 of mine and their super
    My 2 are in ET too. But don't think that this means they won't get religious education - its mandatory in all primary schools. ET just teach about all religions instead of instruction in one.

    However Christianity permeates the curriculum everywhere. Have a look at the 1st class history book. It has a chapter about Christmas and Jesus being the son of god. In a bloody history book! No school ethos replaces the only sure way to educate your child in humanism/ atheism/ etc - teach them yourself.


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    #24
    Lucyfur
    Registered Users Posts: 32,513 ✭✭✭✭Lucyfur


    My son goes to a COI school. He needed his baptismal cert for enrolment. I actually have no idea why, as although it is a COI school, there are many different religions in it.

    He was in a predominantly catholic school before, where there was no need for a baptismal cert.


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    #25
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    Orion wrote: »
    My 2 are in ET too. But don't think that this means they won't get religious education - its mandatory in all primary schools. ET just teach about all religions instead of instruction in one.

    However Christianity permeates the curriculum everywhere. Have a look at the 1st class history book. It has a chapter about Christmas and Jesus being the son of god. In a bloody history book! No school ethos replaces the only sure way to educate your child in humanism/ atheism/ etc - teach them yourself.

    I thought religion was taught as an extra curricular activity in the ET schools


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    #26
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Hannibal Smith wrote: »
    I thought religion was taught as an extra curricular activity in the ET schools
    All Irish primary schools must legally teach 2.5 hours of religion of some description per week. ET schools do not teach doctrine of any religion,but must still teach about religion.Many schools do not,in reality, spend 2.5 on religion, except in sacrament years.


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    #27
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Orion wrote: »
    My 2 are in ET too. But don't think that this means they won't get religious education - its mandatory in all primary schools. ET just teach about all religions instead of instruction in one.

    However Christianity permeates the curriculum everywhere. Have a look at the 1st class history book. It has a chapter about Christmas and Jesus being the son of god. In a bloody history book! No school ethos replaces the only sure way to educate your child in humanism/ atheism/ etc - teach them yourself.

    Of course christianity is in the history books. How would they teach the reformation for example without it? Or mention the holocaust without a reference to the jewish faith. Children can be of any faith, or none at all, but keeping them deliberately ignorant of a subject is not what we send them to school for. History needs context.


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    #28
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    pwurple wrote: »

    Of course christianity is in the history books. How would they teach the reformation for example without it? Or mention the holocaust without a reference to the jewish faith. Children can be of any faith, or none at all, but keeping them deliberately ignorant of a subject is not what we send them to school for. History needs context.
    Christianity is one thing. Teaching doctrine as history is another thing altogether.


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    #29
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Orion wrote: »
    Christianity is one thing. Teaching doctrine as history is another thing altogether.

    I'm sure there are other text books available - complain that an ET school shouldn't have chosen such a book.


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    #30
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »

    I'm sure there are other text books available - complain that an ET school shouldn't have chosen such a book.
    I was on the BoM at the time and I did. That's not the point tho. This is a standard curriculum book from Folens. The school is not at fault here - the curriculum is the problem.


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    #31
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Orion wrote: »
    I was on the BoM at the time and I did. That's not the point tho. This is a standard curriculum book from Folens. The school is not at fault here - the curriculum is the problem.

    The curriculum is, as far as I can see, is open for interpretation. The relevant section would be "Feasts and Festivals of the Past" - being able to discuss the origins and traditions of some common festivals, including discussing relevant legends.

    I don't see any problems there.

    Publishers don't print "curriculum books" - they print their interpretation. It is up to the school to choose the appropriate books and for teachers to decide how to use such books in their lessons. If no suitable book is available then none should be bought.

    Imo, the school is very much at fault if it has chosen a history book stating that Jesus is the son of God (rather than that many people believe this) for a multi-denominational setting.


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