GoIreland rewrite history to make it "Irish"

Sound of Silence

MadsL wrote: »

Feel free. Others see Boyle as very much an Englishman. We clearly disagree.

Even if we allow Boyle, that's 7/10 inventions made up by GoIreland.

Thomas Edison is revered as a genius inventor who has apparently graced the world with a wealth of technological advancements that we simply couldn't do without in the 21st Century. I imagine that a significant majority of the American public would also happen to agree with this synopsis.

Digging a little deeper you will find that his accomplishments have been grossly overestimated (A point which I touched on in my previous sarcastic post - a post which you "thanked").

Would you consider this to be a State conspiracy in the US Education System which perpetuates the false notion that Edison was anything but a master American inventor? The basic crux of this entire thread is your belief that the Irish State is being deliberately and disgustingly facetious in their claims about supposed Irish inventors, isn't it?

That, and the whole topic of "Irish Identity" which you've decided to shoehorn into this thread. If you want to rant about this topic, create a new thread.

barney 20v

MadsL wrote: »

Oh, thanks for that... feckingtracksuitwearingjunkiethieving..oh, you mean..:o

That was Wexford!

GCU Flexible Demeanour

MadsL wrote: »

Even if we allow Boyle, that's 7/10 inventions made up by GoIreland.

I think the issue is that folk don't really know how to acknowledge that such scientific discoveries as can be linked to Ireland were typically made by people who would more likely have regarded themselves as British. An extreme example would be John Tyndall, who actively campaigned against Home Rule for Ireland as he thought that a Catholic dominated State would be an intellectual wasteland. In retrospect, a position that would be hard to refute.

Fr Callan, inventor of the induction coil (obviously not a contraceptive), is one of the very few Irish Catholic scientists of any note.

I don't see the point of the GoIreland thing. I don't see why it would excite interest in visiting here. What they could do is point to some of the science-related things in Ireland that a visitor might actually see if they came here, like:

The restored Birr Telescope - which has quite a good exhibition attached to it

The small science museum in NUI Maynooth - which has some of Fr Callan's equipment

The Straffan Steam museum - a real pity it's not in a more accessible location, as it's a real gem

Broom Bridge, where Sir William Rowan Hamilton carved the formula for quaternion multiplication that came to him in a flash of inspiration while walking there.

There's probably others; it might even be possible to come up with a magic ten.

ulster says no

Typical gathering type nonsense. Just a moneymaking racket.

Poster Boy

Uggh to think that's a State Agency, "GoIreland" that uses such a low-brow double-entendre slogan of "Get A Room"... I'm sure that'll attract ABC1 tourists from abroad :rolleyes:

The real pity about Irish tourism is what is marketed and the way it's marketed. Key highlights that used to very much attract tourists have been ditched over the last 20 years, and instead its about all about selling golf, cooking, and weekends away. To ourselves. In the meantime, our real treasures such as castles, abbeys, and other antiquities have been disregarded - not invested in, made inaccessible - or worse, been destroyed outright by the false Bertie Bubble.

The Christmas Guinness advert sums it up nicely - if unintentionally - where O'Connell's pub in Skyrne, Co. Meath is shown. This is a really picturesque country pub, where up until 5 years ago one could get the key for the old tower beside. Then one day the nice people from the OPW came along took away the key, and that was that - no longer can the tower be accessed. Regrettably this seems to have happened right across the country as tourist attractions / antiquities that used to be accessible have been gradually closed up. For a really good example of OPW preventing public access, I recommend visiting the Bloom Garden Festival in Phoenix Park, where one can visit an OPW stall - right beside the little tower house which is open to the public. But just not on the day when there's plenty of families with children around - because they had to man the stall :rolleyes:

So from where I see it, there is plenty of original creativity that has emerged from Ireland that could be celebrated, as well as many other elements attractive to tourists. But regrettably the country is not served very well by those bodies tasked with the job - for example only 6% of the tourism marketing budget is spent on marketing Dublin, despite it housing more attractions per square foot, being positioned to avail of the weekend getaways, and being the gateway to the country.

Instead of attracting badly needed foreign tourists, we will continue to have FF linked hoteliers trying to sell beds to the Irish, because thats what Tourism Ireland has got away with doing for the last 20 years - and by now, they know no better. So they will continue to sell the proverbial deck chairs on a sinking ship to each other - pointless.

Just on a point of info regarding claim number 7 in the GoIreland list regarding "the armored tank"; they don't specify any inventor and give two different years as the date - 1911 and 1916. I really am not sure what 1911 refers to, however I suspect that what they may be making a very shoddy half-assed reference to is the construction of armored cars in 1916, when metal vats from Guinness's had gun loops inserted and were put onto lorries for crown forces to suppress the Provisional Government.

Again, this assertion by GoIreland is clumsy, bordering on the imbecilic - the armored car appears to have been originally invented in the UK in 1898. Therefore what GoIreland is "celebrating" is the first use of such war vehicles invented elsewhere against Irish citizens. Are we really paying state money to these people at GoIreland?

Perhaps if GoIreland really want to celebrate the history of Irish innovations from that time, they could highlight how Eddie Guinness / Lord Iveagh gave £10,000 to the UVF in 1914 to get guns so as to kill other Irishmen. Or then again, perhaps the truth is just too darn challenging


TL;DR GoIreland's claims are waffle that may cod an Irish audience, but won't pass muster with the international market - and all the time, we actually have plenty of real good attractions that aren't actually being marketed... Roll on Diageo Day :pac:

MadsL

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Thomas Edison is revered as a genius inventor who has apparently graced the world with a wealth of technological advancements that we simply couldn't do without in the 21st Century. I imagine that a significant majority of the American public would also happen to agree with this synopsis.

Digging a little deeper you will find that his accomplishments have been grossly overestimated (A point which I touched on in my previous sarcastic post - a post which you "thanked").

I thanked because I happened to be a great fan of Tesla

Would you consider this to be a State conspiracy in the US Education System which perpetuates the false notion that Edison was anything but a master American inventor?

I don't know. Would you like to link to something State sponsored that makes such a claim? I'm dissecting this piece of GoIreland propaganda aimed at adults, not the US Education System.

The basic crux of this entire thread is your belief that the Irish State is being deliberately and disgustingly facetious in their claims about supposed Irish inventors, isn't it?

Well if they claim something as Irish isn't it reasonable to verify that? Or should they put at a statement about the Irish moonlandings?

That, and the whole topic of "Irish Identity" which you've decided to shoehorn into this thread. If you want to rant about this topic, create a new thread.

I didn't rant about anything. I merely reflected that it was rich to claim Boyle, an aristocrat of the 17th Century, who, had you suggest he was anything other than an Englishman, would have probably had you horsewhipped.

Again what sovereignty in 1627 would have granted him "Irish" nationality? His allegiance to Charles the first is known - he was a Cavalier at the time of the Civil War.

Poster Boy

MadsL wrote: »

Well if they claim something as Irish isn't it reasonable to verify that? Or should they put at a statement about the Irish moonlandings?

Nah, don't bother about the monnlandings - we've a much more up to date angle
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Distant-Irish-relatives-mourn-moonwalker-Neil-Armstrong-167530445.html
:P

MadsL

I guess Barack Obama will be claimed as an Irish Nobel Prizewinner then?

Poster Boy

MadsL wrote: »

I guess Barack Obama will be claimed as an Irish Nobel Prizewinner then?

Darn Right

Cedrus

MadsL wrote: »

Do you think he would have described himself as Irish? Another famous "irishman" Wellington had something to say on accidents of birth. Something about stables and horses, iirc.

You don't recall correctly. As of many quotes, this is one of the many unprovable. If he did say it it was likely as Wellington the politician, at a time of Home Rule agitation he was playing to the crowd. However, also as a polititian, he passed the Catholic Emancipation bill to the great annoyance of the British establishment and great joy in Ireland.

Arthur Wellesley the infant was born and reared in Ireland, as a child he was schooled in Ireland, England, Belgium and France. He entered the Indian Service and as a soldier commanded Indian and British imperial troops. All are entitled to claim him as their own.

Poster Boy

Cedrus wrote: »

You don't recall correctly. As of many quotes, this is one of the many unprovable. If he did say it it was likely as Wellington the politician, at a time of Home Rule agitation he was playing to the crowd. However, also as a polititian, he passed the Catholic Emancipation bill to the great annoyance of the British establishment and great joy in Ireland.

Arthur Wellesley the infant was born and reared in Ireland, as a child he was schooled in England, Belgium and France. He entered the Indian Civil Service and as a soldier commanded Indian and British imperial troops. All are entitle to claim him as their own.

Info point re Wellesley - he also went to school in Portarlington, Co. Laois, in the fine Georgian building beside the bridge that has let become a total ruin in the last 20 years - coincidentally this is a point I made earlier as to our genuine heritage being thrashed during the Bertie Bubble.

Regarding O'Connell, it is worth noting that he won his seat from William Vesey-FitzGerald, a man who had opposed the 1801 Act of Union and separately had been in favour of emancipation for all. While many regard him as having successfully extended the right to vote, in reality the property qualification to be eligible for voting in elections in Ireland was raised from 40 shillings to £10 - thus eliminating many from being able to vote. History looks very favorably on O'Connell, yet to my mind it was his contemporaries, The Young Irelanders, who were right - it's just a pity they weren't successful.

Cedrus

Poster Boy wrote: »

Regarding O'Connell, ...................While many regard him as having successfully extended the right to vote, in reality the property qualification to be eligible for voting in elections in Ireland was raised from 40 shillings to £10 - thus eliminating many from being able to vote.

Wellesley wasn't a democrat, as we would understand it today, either. He believed that only a privileged class should rule, not a mere mob of peasants. He did however, depart from convention in believing that one could raise themselves to the ruling class by their own efforts, rather than just by inheritance.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Sir Francis Beaufort who developed the Beaufort Scale, used to measure wind force and speed at sea was born in Navan. He was from a Protestant background and he went to sea at an early age, eventually ending up as Rear Admiral in the British Navy. Now he didn't start from scratch in developing his scale either, he developed existing ideas and perfected them.

You'll notice though that a lot of inventions come about in this manner.

Poster Boy

Cedrus wrote: »

Wellesley wasn't a democrat, as we would understand it today, either. He believed that only a privileged class should rule, not a mere mob of peasants. He did however, depart from convention in believing that one could raise themselves to the ruling class by their own efforts, rather than just by inheritance.

This is true alright. He was an interesting character, not simply black and white. Now that we might take an interest in him, and also to return to the OP's theme, which Irish place should really claim him - the present Merrion Hotel where he was born, Trim - where he grew up, or Portarlington, where he was schooled?

Actually, they is all wrong as St Mary's Church on Jervis Street in Dublin was where he was baptised - so that's trumps. That, and also coincidentally Arthur Guinness got married there, just to circle off my earlier ramblings. Somewhat appropriate its a pub today :pac:

Capt'n Midnight

MadsL wrote: »

8. About the year 1820 American merchantmen, sailing between Brazil and New England, often carried rubber as extra ballast on the home voyage and dumped it on the wharves at Boston. One of the shipmasters exhibited to his friends a pair of native shoes made from rubber. Another, with more foresight, brought home five hundred pairs, and offered them for sale. http://inventors.about.com/cs/inventorsalphabet/a/rubber_2.htm

Natural rubber is the stuff in chewing gum and it's just about as long lasting unless you vulcanise it with sulphur it kinda perishes like - did you ever drop a rubber band in oil / try to stretch an old one ?

Cedrus

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.goireland.com/craic/10-irish-inventions.htm#axzz1laqhQzFM

1. The submarine: Numerous designs predate Holland.
http://www.submarine-history.com/NOVAone.htm

Most of the designs on the amatuerish site you quote, are either not submarines but only submersibles, were never built or failed when built.
Monturiol and his Ictineo I & II are not mentioned nor any of Hollands designs.
You may as well claim that Da Vinci designed the Bell Cobra Helicopter based on a vague helical sketch he did years earlier

Sound of Silence

MadsL wrote: »

I don't know. Would you like to link to something State sponsored that makes such a claim? I'm dissecting this piece of GoIreland propaganda aimed at adults, not the US Education System.

Propaganda? Oh, please! Clearly the qualifications for what constitutes State funded propaganda are incredibly low.

I didn't rant about anything. I merely reflected that it was rich to claim Boyle, an aristocrat of the 17th Century, who, had you suggest he was anything other than an Englishman, would have probably had you horsewhipped.

Then I assume that when you said: "Ah, I see. So there never was "800 years of oppression" then", you were simply indulging yourself in a quick non-sequitur - not in fact revealing your intentions to draw this thread into a rant against what you would consider to be the less attractive elements of Irish society.

I believe that the Anglo-Irish class would have considered themselves to have been the New Irish. Johnathan Swift, for example, often wrote on behalf of the Irish People when expressing their apparent plight (most notably in "A Modest Proposal"), but it was clear that he was not always speaking necessarily about the Native Irish but actually of the Anglo-Irish class in Ireland.

Again what sovereignty in 1627 would have granted him "Irish" nationality? His allegiance to Charles the first is known - he was a Cavalier at the time of the Civil War.

I assume by that logic a Welshman has also never existed, for he never had any sovereignty but was simply an Englishman living in an English Principality. In fact, is it possible for a Welshman to exist now since the introduction of a Devolved Parliament, or do they remain relegated to the pantheon of Mythological creatures like the Unicorn or Sasquatch?

Clearly you're confusing National Identity with Ethnic Identity, which on this Island is quite diverse.

MadsL

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Natural rubber is the stuff in chewing gum and it's just about as long lasting unless you vulcanise it with sulphur it kinda perishes like - did you ever drop a rubber band in oil / try to stretch an old one ?

You might be familiar with the Plimsoll invented in the 1830s by the Liverpool Rubber Company. It seems our friend from Cork invented them seventy years later. Or are you claiming he was the first to stick vulcanised rubber on his feet?

Cedrus wrote: »

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.goireland.com/craic/10-irish-inventions.htm#axzz1laqhQzFM

1. The submarine: Numerous designs predate Holland.
http://www.submarine-history.com/NOVAone.htm

Most of the designs on the amatuerish site you quote, are either not submarines but only submersibles, were never built or failed when built.
Monturiol and his Ictineo I & II are not mentioned nor any of Hollands designs.

You may as well claim that Da Vinci designed the Bell Cobra Helicopter based on a vague helical sketch he did years earlier

On that basis then Monturiol should be credited. Still not Irish. Holland invented the first hybrid submarine using engines on the surface and batteries underwater.

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Propaganda? Oh, please! Clearly the qualifications for what constitutes State funded propaganda are incredibly low.

Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

If it walks like a duck...

Then I assume that when you said: "Ah, I see. So there never was "800 years of oppression" then", you were simply indulging yourself in a quick non-sequitur - not in fact revealing your intentions to draw this thread into a rant against what you would consider to be the less attractive elements of Irish society.

Well here's a thing. On one hand Boyle's father, 1st Earl of Cork, was a member of this 'invading English tyranny' and close friend and supporter of Cromwell. Now after building an empire of 13 estates and establishing the town of Clonakilty the 1st Earl of Cork saw his sons fighting the Irish rebellion of 1642 at Battle of Liscarroll. His third son Roger Boyle, 1st Earl of Orrery, eventually accepted a command from Cromwell. He was master of the ordnance for Cromwell's invasion.

So on the other hand, you now expect me to believe that the youngest son of this family, who left Ireland at the age of eight, and spent less than two years of his adult life in Ireland, who having grown up on stories of battle and conquest of Ireland would now profess to be an Irishman. Pull the other one. I'm astonished you wish to lay claim to him, by that logic would you describe his brother, Cromwell's commander and master of the ordnance as an "Irishman"??

I believe that the Anglo-Irish class would have considered themselves to have been the New Irish. Johnathan Swift, for example, often wrote on behalf of the Irish People when expressing their apparent plight (most notably in "A Modest Proposal"), but it was clear that he was not always speaking necessarily about the Native Irish but actually of the Anglo-Irish class in Ireland.

Johnathan Swift wasn't even born until twenty years after the events I am describing. The son of a new money Englishman, laying claim to Irish lands, and putting down rebellion was no Johnathan Swift, hate to break it to you.

I assume by that logic a Welshman has also never existed, for he never had any sovereignty but was simply an Englishman living in an English Principality.

No. He was a Welshman living in an English Principality. What would you call the son of an Englishman living in that Principality helping to quash any rebellion. Pretty sure the Welsh would not consider him Welsh.

Daniel Defoe wrote:

Thus from a mixture of all kinds began,
That het’rogeneous thing, an Englishman:
In eager rapes, and furious lust begot,
Betwixt a painted Britain and a Scot.
Whose gend’ring off-spring quickly learn’d to bow,
And yoke their heifers to the Roman plough:
From whence a mongrel half-bred race there came,
With neither name, nor nation, speech nor fame.
In whose hot veins new mixtures quickly ran,
Infus’d betwixt a Saxon and a Dane.
While their rank daughters, to their parents just,
Receiv’d all nations with promiscuous lust.
This nauseous brood directly did contain
The well-extracted blood of Englishmen.

In fact, is it possible for a Welshman to exist now since the introduction of a Devolved Parliament, or do they remain relegated to the pantheon of Mythological creatures like the Unicorn or Sasquatch?

Well since you bring it up, yes they exist, but not as a Sovereign, Independent nation. You have to describe Welsh in terms of ethnicity, which brings us back to the nationality of the parents.

Clearly you're confusing National Identity with Ethnic Identity, which on this Island is quite diverse.

And Robert Boyle's ethnicity was what exactly, if not English? Geography of birth does not define ethnicity.

MadsL

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/guinness-considered-being-english-010608440.html

Seems even Diageo/Guinness themselves know how English their roots are.

grenache

Confab wrote: »

James Martin was from Northern Ireland, therefore he wasn't Irish anyway, he was a UK citizen.

GoIreland, along with Tourism Ireland amongst others promote Ireland on an all island basis.

Anyone born on the island of Ireland back then was a UK citizen, but they were also Irish.

MagicSean

I can't believe this has gone to five pages.

MadsL

Apologies for giving the impression GoIreland was state funded, it was indirectly until 2004. Sorry for any confusion caused. FEXCO bought it out and it is now a private system.

Gulliver Ireland, which is headquartered in Killorglin, Co. Kerry, is Ireland’s leading cost effective provider of tourism information and reservations. The original Gulliver system was developed by Bord Fáilte and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board.
Following a partnership agreement with FEXCO in 1997, the financial services company acquired a majority shareholding in Gulliver and since July 2004 is the 100 per cent owner of Gulliver Ireland.

MadsL

MagicSean wrote: »

I can't believe this has gone to five pages.

Thanks for helping it to six.

grenache

MagicSean wrote: »

I can't believe this has gone to five pages.

You're right not to believe.

It's actually gone to seven pages

magma69

I really couldn't give a toss what the Irish invented or what they didn't. History all over the world is riddled with false claims. I do find the agenda being pushed by the OP with such vigour a little bit weird though.

MadsL

magma69 wrote: »

I really couldn't give a toss what the Irish invented or what they didn't. History all over the world is riddled with false claims. I do find the agenda being pushed by the OP with such vigour a little bit weird though.

What 'agenda'? lol at the thought of having an 'agenda'. Please enlighten me.

im invisible

We invented the Wavin pipe

MadsL

Wavin. Right. Not Dutch then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavin

Strictly speaking, the OP is largely correct but I see the GoIreland piece as a jokey article along the lines of Ridleys 'believe it or not'. Definitely not acceptable as a serious piece of journalism, but fine as a bit of fun.

9959

grenache wrote: »

You're right not to believe.

It's actually gone to seven pages

I'm reading this thread because I woke up too early and am bored out of my tiny mind, I'm really enjoying it and hope it continues for at least another seven pages.
It strikes me that 'MadsL' is a formidable debater, and his holding his corner with some aplomb.

Note to self: Don't get into a 'Donnybrook' with that fella unless you really know your onions.

More please and thank you all!

Cedrus

MadsL wrote: »

On that basis then Monturiol should be credited. Still not Irish. Holland invented the first hybrid submarine using engines on the surface and batteries underwater.

The Icteneos were still only submersibles, you could sing them once per voyage, you could float them once per voyage.

Hollands Real innovation was that he could control the depth and go up and down as often as you wished i,e, the First Submarine.

Cienciano

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Sir Francis Beaufort who developed the Beaufort Scale, used to measure wind force and speed at sea was born in Navan. He was from a Protestant background and he went to sea at an early age, eventually ending up as Rear Admiral in the British Navy. Now he didn't start from scratch in developing his scale either, he developed existing ideas and perfected them.

You'll notice though that a lot of inventions come about in this manner.

"Rear Admiral" lol!

Dravokivich

MadsL wrote: »

So if you were born in Spain on holiday, would you describe yourself as Spanish?
To help you, you might want to read the text of the 27th Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland.



Clearly the majority of the Irish population consider parents' nationality to be very much to do with a child's nationality?

If you want to be such a smart arse about it,

Insertion of new Article 9.2.2:
This section shall not apply to persons born before the date of the enactment of this section.

I'm pretty sure that covers it.

conorhal

MadsL wrote: »

In the same way De Valera was American I suppose.

Both Boyle's parents were English, and whilst he was born in Ireland he was schooled at Eton from the age of eight. He did his "Grand Tour" of Europe and settled in Geneva, then moved to England in the summer of 1644. He settled in Stalbridge, the family English estate. He paid two lengthy visits to Ireland during the early 50s (for a year from June 1652, and then for eight months from Oct 1653), and wrote a letter describing Ireland as " this illiterate country".

He profited greatly from Cromwell, sucking 3000 pounds a year from his estates in Ireland as an absentee landlord. He lived then in Oxford, and later London until his death.

Sure why not claim him as "Irish"... :rolleyes:

But with his contemptable self loathing and mealy mouthed begrudgery towards the country, what else could he be but Irish?

Anyone

Kxiii wrote: »

Born in Lismore Co. Waterford.

Waterford also gave the world the cream cracker.

Is that Rhyming Slang?

Sound of Silence

MadsL wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

If it walks like a duck...

Then I assume the BBC have been polluted with that same terrible disease.

Often they're on a bit of a roll.

So on the other hand, you now expect me to believe that the youngest son of this family, who left Ireland at the age of eight, and spent less than two years of his adult life in Ireland, who having grown up on stories of battle and conquest of Ireland would now profess to be an Irishman. Pull the other one. I'm astonished you wish to lay claim to him, by that logic would you describe his brother, Cromwell's commander and master of the ordnance as an "Irishman"??

I don't particularly wish to lay claim to these malcontents, but the natural fact is that they were born in Ireland and therefore could reasonably be introduced into the GoIreland article as being, well, Irish or at least Anglo-Irish. If you simply don't want to entertain any more speculation, then we can dig the man up himself and ask him in person - all in the name of a Cartoon article which transcends simple misappropriation and enters the realm of State Propaganda.

W.B. Yeats spoke of the Anglo-Irish class when he said: "We are one of the great stocks of Europe. We are the people of Burke; we are the people of Grattan; we are the people of Swift, the people of Emmet, the people of Parnell. We have created the most of the modern literature of this country. We have created the best of its political intelligence". I assume your response would be that, unfortunately, these men's accomplishments simply do not fit into the fabric of Irish heritage until about, well, the early to mid 18th Century, if even that.

Johnathan Swift wasn't even born until twenty years after the events I am describing. The son of a new money Englishman, laying claim to Irish lands, and putting down rebellion was no Johnathan Swift, hate to break it to you.

Those must have been a tumultuous and revelatory twenty years. Also, Swift had very little love for the native Irish. As I mentioned earlier, when he spoke of the "Irish people", he was speaking of the Anglo-Irish class

No. He was a Welshman living in an English Principality. What would you call the son of an Englishman living in that Principality helping to quash any rebellion. Pretty sure the Welsh would not consider him Welsh.

I find it ironic that a man who clearly expressed his distaste for the whole "800 Years" argument seems to be doing everything in his power to perpetuate the notion of the foreign Colonial aggressor exploiting and pacifying the Native population.

Nothing wrong with that, but it has little to do with the GoIreland article simply stating that Robert Boyle was born in Ireland.

Well since you bring it up, yes they exist, but not as a Sovereign, Independent nation. You have to describe Welsh in terms of ethnicity, which brings us back to the nationality of the parents.

When has a parent's Nationality been tied to someone's ethnicity?

And Robert Boyle's ethnicity was what exactly, if not English? Geography of birth does not define ethnicity.

It doesn't negate him from being placed in the Article. I'm not sure what else was claimed about Boyle in the article, other than that he happened to have been born in Ireland, which certainly isn't a false claim.

I'm not sure how much room was left in the article for the author to actually explore in detail the intricacies of the Irish identity and how it applies to each individual inventor. A thoroughly engrossing read, indeed.

baalthor

Are George Orwell, Rudyard Kipling, Lawrence Durrell, Cliff Richard, Joanna Lumley and Pete Best all famous Indians then ?

Sound of Silence

baalthor wrote: »

Are George Orwell, Rudyard Kipling, Lawrence Durrell, Cliff Richard, Joanna Lumley and Pete Best all famous Indians then ?

They would have been considered Colonial Commoners, of course. The equivalent in Ireland being the Anglo-Irish class or the Protestant Ascendancy.

Duggys Housemate

Clearly it's a bit more complicated these days with lots of immigration, and we are a bit careful to tip toe around the distinctions in "Irishness" between the ethnic Irish and Irish born and reared. But not then. The Anglo Irish considered themselves British, Anglo Irish and even English.

With colonialism it is different. Colonials bring their way of life and Government with them, and their laws etc. Nobody has ever described Dawkins as a Kenyan.

The OP is a bit odd to care about this fluff piece but right about Boyle.

Cedrus

Having been born in another country to one Irish parent and having worked in several countries myself, my personal experience would make me believe that Wellesley and Boyle were considered Irish by their English contemporaries and English by their Irish contemporaries.
The sane most likely applies to George Orwell, Rudyard Kipling, Lawrence Durrell, Cliff Richard, Joanna Lumley and Pete Best with regard to India.
Most people I know who have been born in one country but 'belong' to another country are proud of their heritage but keep it quiet when it doesn't suit.

Sound of Silence

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The OP is a bit odd to care about this fluff piece but right about Boyle.

It's the allusion to Propaganda that's most odd.

The amount of misinformation that surrounds Inventors and Inventions isn't something which is confined to the Irish, so to read too much into what is admittedly a fluff piece just seems bizarre.

MadsL

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you want to be such a smart arse about it,

Insertion of new Article 9.2.2:
This section shall not apply to persons born before the date of the enactment of this section.

I'm pretty sure that covers it.

No. You are in, you can call yourself Irish and claim Irish citizenship. You can also claim Scottish heritage and probably UK citizenship. The point that I am making in the case of Boyle is that if you are born in a colony, and actively assist in the supression of the natives, you have no right to retrospectively be called a native of that land when it reaches independence.

Following that amendment you will find that the majority of Irish felt that being born somewhere was not the same as being "of" there. Hence the parental nationality rule.

Sound of Silence wrote: »

They would have been considered Colonial Commoners, of course. The equivalent in Ireland being the Anglo-Irish class or the Protestant Ascendancy.

Commoners of which Sovereignty? I think you left something out.

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Then I assume the BBC have been polluted with that same terrible disease.

The teachers notes for that page cover other inventors scrabbling to patent the telephone. http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/schoolradio/pdfs/history/inventions.pdf

Often they're on a bit of a roll.

You know that's a wiki written by a volunteer right?

What exactly are you trying to prove with this, that the BBC publish errors?? Of course they do, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue by linking to this? Care to expound?

I don't particularly wish to lay claim to these malcontents, but the natural fact is that they were born in Ireland and therefore could reasonably be introduced into the GoIreland article as being, well, Irish or at least Anglo-Irish.

And the point is that I was making was that more than half of these so called 'weird' Irish inventions are weird because they worn't invented in the first place. In the case of Boyle, all I am doing is pointing out that calling the son of an invading Earl and the brother of Cromwell's go to armaments guy "Irish" is bending the needle of my ironymatixs patented Irony right up against the "Delicious" setting.

If you simply don't want to entertain any more speculation, then we can dig the man up himself and ask him in person - all in the name of a Cartoon article which transcends simple misappropriation and enters the realm of State Propaganda.

As I said earlier calling this man Irish to his face would have probably got you horsewhipped. Speculate all you want, but I doubt very much if on digging him up he'd have much time for you asking him to put on the Green Jersey.

W.B. Yeats spoke of the Anglo-Irish class when he said: "We are one of the great stocks of Europe. We are the people of Burke; we are the people of Grattan; we are the people of Swift, the people of Emmet, the people of Parnell. We have created the most of the modern literature of this country. We have created the best of its political intelligence". I assume your response would be that, unfortunately, these men's accomplishments simply do not fit into the fabric of Irish heritage until about, well, the early to mid 18th Century, if even that.

If you think that a contemporary of Cromwell, from a family that took an active part in the mass slaughter and destruction of Ireland, who left at the age of eight, who bled his Irish estates for an income of 3000 a year, and who loathed the place is someone you want to put up on pedestal as one of the Great Men of Ireland, then you would appear to be struggling to find such men.

I'm not disrespecting the Anglo-Irish contribution to Ireland, on the contrary, it suprises me how often the Anglo portion is dropped when it suits, but even you have to admit that including Boyle requires ignoring some rather bloody aspects of his relations and history.

Those must have been a tumultuous and revelatory twenty years. Also, Swift had very little love for the native Irish. As I mentioned earlier, when he spoke of the "Irish people", he was speaking of the Anglo-Irish class

You keep trying to drag Swift into this for some reason. We are discussing Boyle.

I find it ironic that a man who clearly expressed his distaste for the whole "800 Years" argument seems to be doing everything in his power to perpetuate the notion of the foreign Colonial aggressor exploiting and pacifying the Native population.

That's because you can't have it both ways. The father and brother the "foreign Colonial aggressor" and the other son the beloved Irishman. Come on, that's quite a doublethink right there wouldn't you say?

Nothing wrong with that, but it has little to do with the GoIreland article simply stating that Robert Boyle was born in Ireland.

No, re-read it. It states he was an Irishman.

When has a parent's Nationality been tied to someone's ethnicity?

Ever hear of an anchor baby?
Given that "One in five people deported from Ireland since the start of 2010 were children. Deporting children, who may have been born in Ireland and never been to the countries they are being returned to, is a hardly justifiable practice."
[source]
Ireland in its sovereign form no longer sees place of birth as having the same importance as you wish to place on it. Out of interest, how did you vote in that Referendum?

It doesn't negate him from being placed in the Article. I'm not sure what else was claimed about Boyle in the article, other than that he happened to have been born in Ireland, which certainly isn't a false claim.

As I have said above, he is described as an Irishman.

I'm not sure how much room was left in the article for the author to actually explore in detail the intricacies of the Irish identity and how it applies to each individual inventor. A thoroughly engrossing read, indeed.

I'm sure you can grasp the subtle difference between he was born in Ireland and he's an Irishman.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

MadsL wrote: »

I'm sure you can grasp the subtle difference between he was born in Ireland and he's an Irishman.

You mean that David Norris isn't Congolese?

MadsL

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

You mean that David Norris isn't Congolese?

Is he Belgian?

I think you'll find my point as explained above is that your parents' ethnicity and nationality play a very great role in determining a person's view of their nationality.

I'd be certain that Boyle would have choked on his coffee had you described him as an Irishman.

Sound of Silence

What exactly are you trying to prove with this, that the BBC publish errors?? Of course they do, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue by linking to this? Care to expound?

What's the difference between an error and propaganda? The Irish commit one and the British the other.

If you think that a contemporary of Cromwell, from a family that took an active part in the mass slaughter and destruction of Ireland, who left at the age of eight, who bled his Irish estates for an income of 3000 a year, and who loathed the place is someone you want to put up on pedestal as one of the Great Men of Ireland, then you would appear to be struggling to find such men.

Again I'll explain that I have no interest in claiming Robert Boyle as an Irishman. My interest in this topic lies solely with your claims regarding supposed State propaganda, which I'll admit is a claim I find to be frankly ridiculous.

Do you really consider the author of the piece to have been particularly interested in exploring or speculating on Boyle's ethnic identity before he included him in the trawl? Or would you suspect that he included him simply based on the fact that he was born on this Island; a fact which can hardly be denied. The author of the article wasn't even the first person to claim Robert Boyle; Science.ie also got in on it.

I guess the State Propaganda has permeated so deeply into the Irish media that it's infiltrated two year old articles!

I'm not disrespecting the Anglo-Irish contribution to Ireland, on the contrary, it suprises me how often the Anglo portion is dropped when it suits, but even you have to admit that including Boyle requires ignoring some rather bloody aspects of his relations and history.

You're shocked by how often the "Anglo portion" is dropped? It would seem that in Boyle's case both the Anglo and the Irish are dropped when one sees fit.

You keep trying to drag Swift into this for some reason. We are discussing Boyle.

I'm simply using Swift as a contrast to your view that Boyle's Generation had a single solitary view of ethnicity and identity. Swift, having been born to English parents in Ireland (his Father a staunch Royalist and Planter, like Boyle's), would certainly have been influenced by the supposed attitudes of the time. Despite this, it would seem that he had little problem identifying himself as Anglo-Irish, or even Irish for that matter. Hell, he never needed even to bring out the horsewhip.

You even said it yourself when you argued "that your parents' ethnicity and nationality play a very great role in determining a person's view of their nationality". What affect this supposed indoctrination had on Swift, I'm not entirely sure. In Boyle's case, the topic is entirely in the realm of speculation.

That's because you can't have it both ways. The father and brother the "foreign Colonial aggressor" and the other son the beloved Irishman. Come on, that's quite a doublethink right there wouldn't you say?

Again, do you honestly believe that I'm attempting to portray Boyle as a Son of Eire or a proud Irishman? Far from it.

No, re-read it. It states he was an Irishman.

By birth perhaps, but not by conviction clearly. Like countless others, I assume.

Ever hear of an anchor baby?
Given that "One in five people deported from Ireland since the start of 2010 were children. Deporting children, who may have been born in Ireland and never been to the countries they are being returned to, is a hardly justifiable practice."
[source]
Ireland in its sovereign form no longer sees place of birth as having the same importance as you wish to place on it. Out of interest, how did you vote in that Referendum?

Odd that you would bring that up, as the logical conclusion to your argument would be that these people could not in fact be considered Irish, as the ethnicity and Nationality of their parents would seemingly prevent it.

Seeing that I don't live in the Republic, I can't vote on the referendum.

steddyeddy

We proposed the concept of the electron.

MadsL

Sound of Silence wrote: »

What's the difference between an error and propaganda? The Irish commit one and the British the other.

Fine. The BBC piece is British Propaganda. Is your what-about-ary itch satisfied?
Have you proved anything?

Again I'll explain that I have no interest in claiming Robert Boyle as an Irishman. My interest in this topic lies solely with your claims regarding supposed State propaganda, which I'll admit is a claim I find to be frankly ridiculous.

You'll see I retracted that this was State-sponsored quite some time ago. In the meantime you have been obessing about Boyle.

Do you really consider the author of the piece to have been particularly interested in exploring or speculating on Boyle's ethnic identity before he included him in the trawl? Or would you suspect that he included him simply based on the fact that he was born on this Island; a fact which can hardly be denied.

I pointed out that over 60-80% of this piece is complete bollox, they hardly explored anything. You seem fixated on Boyle, to the exclusion of all of the other makey up stuff in the infographic. I'm suggesting that it was very sloppy research to claim half of this stuff.

I never denied Boyle was born in Lismore, I'm just pointing out the fact that thye concept of him as "Irishman" would have been baffling. He probably would have pointed out that he was born in a part of the world ruled by his King, to whom he had, as a Cavalier, sworn an oath of allegiance, and that made him a true Briton.

The author of the article wasn't even the first person to claim Robert Boyle; Science.ie also got in on it.

I never claimed they were the first person, I just pointed out his true biography and actions.

I guess the State Propaganda has permeated so deeply into the Irish media that it's infiltrated two year old articles!

Again, you are fixing on a fact from one of the ten points made in the infographic. Why so fixated.

You're shocked by how often the "Anglo portion" is dropped? It would seem that in Boyle's case both the Anglo and the Irish are dropped when one sees fit.

Would "Irish-born" Englishman suit you beter?

I'm simply using Swift as a contrast to your view that Boyle's Generation had a single solitary view of ethnicity and identity. Swift, having been born to English parents in Ireland (his Father a staunch Royalist and Planter, like Boyle's), would certainly have been influenced by the supposed attitudes of the time. Despite this, it would seem that he had little problem identifying himself as Anglo-Irish, or even Irish for that matter. Hell, he never needed even to bring out the horsewhip.

Boyle's generation? Boyle was 40 before Swift was even born. You are stretching now.

You even said it yourself when you argued "that your parents' ethnicity and nationality play a very great role in determining a person's view of their nationality". What affect this supposed indoctrination had on Swift, I'm not entirely sure. In Boyle's case, the topic is entirely in the realm of speculation.

Then by your measure, as has been pointed out David Norris is Congolese.
By extreme argument, he could be seen as Belgian, I would only argue that if he was of Belgian descent, and aiding conquest then that would be correct.
By any normal measure, the nationality of your parents has a huge factor to play, as now demonstrated by the Irish Constitution.

Again, do you honestly believe that I'm attempting to portray Boyle as a Son of Eire or a proud Irishman? Far from it.

By birth perhaps, but not by conviction clearly. Like countless others, I assume.

By birth he was an Hon. as the son of an Earl, or does that not mean as much as spending eight years and practically none of his adult life in Ireland in determining his nationality.

Odd that you would bring that up, as the logical conclusion to your argument would be that these people could not in fact be considered Irish, as the ethnicity and Nationality of their parents would seemingly prevent it.

I don't have a say in it. I'm just pointing out how the State behaves in relation to those people. It is not enough to be born in Ireland to be Irish for the State. You are arguing that it is.

Seeing that I don't live in the Republic, I can't vote on the referendum.

Very well, how would you have voted?

steddyeddy wrote: »

We proposed the concept of the electron.

Was there a vote?

John Doe1

Well at least an irishman James Ussher discovered the date the world started, 4004 BC

9959

John Doe1 wrote: »

Well at least an irishman James Ussher discovered the date the world started, 4004 BC

The world started what exactly, cross-dressing?

Sound of Silence

MadsL wrote: »

I pointed out that over 60-80% of this piece is complete bollox, they hardly explored anything. You seem fixated on Boyle, to the exclusion of all of the other makey up stuff in the infographic. I'm suggesting that it was very sloppy research to claim half of this stuff.

My summary of the other 60-80% of the article was pretty much summed up as a misappropriation of credit - something which is hardly the sole preserve of the Irish when it comes to inventors or inventions, and hardly something to be particularly riled about. I even touched on this point when I made a deliberately sarcastic post about Edison and Tesla.

Hell, it's a topic which is often entertained by cracked articles and trivia books, so to call out one particular Organisation over the debacle as being slightly more guilty than the others just seems a bit far-fetched.

Very well, how would you have voted?

I would be a liar to claim that I knew the exact content of the Referendum you happened to mention, but generally I'm in favour of anything which supports the right to amnesty for asylum-seekers.