Dessie Ellis - The Sinn Fein TD who is linked to 50 murders

Rascasse

howiya wrote: »

It was a case of extradition as the British were seeking to have him extradited to the UK and not deported to Ireland.

No it wasn't. They were concerned he'd be returned to Canada (and, presumably, disappear or try to claim asylum). This is evidenced by this passage of the telex

"we hoped that steps could be made to ensure that he was not simply sent back to Canada following next Tuesday's (immigration) court hearing and escape from justice."

Also, Ireland didn't have an extradition treaty with the US until December 1984 (I assume that's why he headed there).

Anyway, he entered the country illegally therefore the only question for the immigration court was send him back to where he came from (Canada) or to the country of his passport.

rightwingdub

Black propaganda from the British and as usual a lot of middle class paddies fall for it.

RobFowl

rightwingdub wrote: »

Black propaganda from the British and as usual a lot of middle class paddies fall for it.

Are you suggesting it isn't true?
I don't think anyone else seems to have thought so ....

rightwingdub

RobFowl wrote: »

Are you suggesting it isn't true?
I don't think anyone else seems to have thought so ....

Well the British establishment were known to practise dark proaganda during the troubles and this is probably no exception.

howiya

Rascasse wrote: »

No it wasn't. They were concerned he'd be returned to Canada (and, presumably, disappear or try to claim asylum). This is evidenced by this passage of the telex


Also, Ireland didn't have an extradition treaty with the US until December 1984 (I assume that's why he headed there).

Anyway, he entered the country illegally therefore the only question for the immigration court was send him back to where he came from (Canada) or to the country of his passport.

Have you seen the telex?

Funny that you quote the exact same sentence the Indo quote

Rascasse

howiya wrote: »

Have you seen the telex?

Funny that you quote the exact same sentence the Indo quote

I haven't seen it, I don't think anyone has apart from the press as the bundle that I suspect it is in has not been uploaded to the UK National Archive website yet. The only way to see it now is to visit Kew in person.

I copied that quote from the Belfast Telegraph website. But fairly sure I read it first on the Irish Times site. Does it make a difference?

howiya

Rascasse wrote: »

I haven't seen it, I don't think anyone has apart from the press as the bundle that I suspect it is in has not been uploaded to the UK National Archive website yet. The only way to see it now is to visit Kew in person.

I copied that quote from the Belfast Telegraph website. But fairly sure I read it first on the Irish Times site. Does it make a difference?

The paper which you quote it from doesn't make much of a difference tbh.

However you are using the text of the telex to disagree with my point which was that Britain were interested in having Ellis extradited to the UK in 1982.

Rascasse

howiya wrote: »

The paper which you quote it from doesn't make much of a difference tbh.

However you are using the text of the telex to disagree with my point which was that Britain were interested in having Ellis extradited to the UK in 1982.

Ah right. I find it unlikely that the UK would have requested the extradition. I the quote I copied was to rebut your claim that their concern was to get him back to the UK and not Ireland as their concern was to prevent him being returned to Canada.

There's many reasons why I doubt that the UK would go down the extradition route that I won't try to type out on my phone. Ultimately ensuring deportation to Ireland was the quickest and easiest way to take him out of circulation.

Paddy De Plasterer

If Dessie Ellis had not paid his tax, or took too many ink cartridges from the Dail armoury, he would be held in public odium, but as he is an ex IRA man , thats OK.

SoulandForm

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

If Dessie Ellis had not paid his tax, or took too many ink cartridges from the Dail armoury, he would be held in public odium, but as he is an ex IRA man , thats OK.

Because a lot of people are ambigious to sympathetic to the PIRA's campaign if not outright supportive. There was a survey taken of Workers Party's voter in the 1980s which showed that a majority had sympathy with them and the WP went over the top with their condemnation of their former comrades.

There was a nasty sectarian undercurrent to the Provo's campaign and you can condemn it for having no chances of success and therefore a sad loss of human life. They were not common criminals though.

Offy

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

If Dessie Ellis had not paid his tax, or took too many ink cartridges from the Dail armoury, he would be held in public odium, but as he is an ex IRA man , thats OK.

I think if you read all the posts in this thread you will find it hard to argue that a lot of people hold him in anything other than public odium. Like so much other things in life people dont care what you do to others only what you do to the person in question and Dessie Ellis has helped a lot of people. When us Irish are helped we tend to remember it and thats why so many defend him. Added to that anyone thats Irish, catholic, republican or nationalist has a tendency to side with their own especially when its the British government that are out to get them which adds to Dessie Ellis support base.
This issue is much bigger than paying tax or stealing ink.

Offy

Offy wrote: »

I think if you read all the posts in this thread you will find it hard to argue that a lot of people hold him in anything other than public odium. Like so much other things in life people dont care what you do to others only what you do to the person in question and Dessie Ellis has helped a lot of people. When us Irish are helped we tend to remember it and thats why so many defend him. Added to that anyone thats Irish, catholic, republican or nationalist has a tendency to side with their own especially when its the British government that are out to get them which adds to Dessie Ellis support base.
This issue is much bigger than paying tax or stealing ink.

You're completely right. He's just another Michael Lowry - A criminal that the rest of us have to endure because stupid, selfish people vote for them.

Offy

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're completely right. He's just another Michael Lowry - A criminal that the rest of us have to endure because stupid, selfish people vote for them.

I wouldnt say they are stupid and selfish. He has helped a lot of people over the years regardless of who likes him and who dislikes him.

Offy

Offy wrote: »

I wouldnt say they are stupid and selfish. He has helped a lot of people over the years regardless of who likes him and who dislikes him.

But from where I'm standing, it's kinda one of those things where once you've colluded in the committing of brutal acts attributing to mass death, no amount of telling people how and where to sign on, or what grants they are entitled to, can really make up for it.

SoulandForm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're completely right. He's just another Michael Lowry - A criminal that the rest of us have to endure because stupid, selfish people vote for them.

Very Thatcher of you.

Northern Ireland maybe under a different state but it is still Ireland.

If he was in the PIRA he was facing a state actively collaborating with Loyalists who murdering ordinary members of the Ulster Catholic Community. A state at its foundation brought in Loyalist anti-trade union and anti-Republican into the B-Specials.

Northern Ireland was not and is not an ordinary place. You cannot apply the rules of the south to it.

howiya

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

But from where I'm standing, it's kinda one of those things where once you've colluded in the committing of brutal acts attributing to mass death, no amount of telling people how and where to sign on, or what grants they are entitled to, can really make up for it.

You'd wonder how Tony Blair sleeps at night so

SoulandForm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

But from where I'm standing, it's kinda one of those things where once you've colluded in the committing of brutal acts attributing to mass death, no amount of telling people how and where to sign on, or what grants they are entitled to, can really make up for it.

Members of my family were killed the PIRA. I have a sense of just how brutal they were and how nasty the troubles were. They were though the product of a particular situation. That situation has not changed.

During the 19 th century Ireland had 20 per cent more armed police men than Prussia did per capita. People died so you havent experienced British colonialism, so you are stuck like Wales in its present situation. You could have done a lot better, but you could have done a lot worse, but its dishonourable to forget the fact that six counties of Ireland are still a colony ruled by a vicious policy of divide and rule.

SoulandForm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

But from where I'm standing, it's kinda one of those things where once you've colluded in the committing of brutal acts attributing to mass death, no amount of telling people how and where to sign on, or what grants they are entitled to, can really make up for it.

When Republic of Ireland government had UDA commanders personally invited down to meet the English Queen did you feel the same way? Do you feel the same way about your government throwing money at the Orange Order?

tipptom

The point is that the reason it has made headlines now is not that he was a bombmaker in the IRA which everybody knew,it is the nice round figure of 50 deaths that mi5 decided to put forward to the Americans to get him back pronto with no evidence.They just put it out there to further their means in the same way as FG and Charlie Flanagan is using it now 30 years later to further their own means because of SFs threat to them nationally, and locally to mr Flanagan where SF polled very strongly and will oust him in the next election when FG dont have the anti FF bounce.

Seems to be now an official FG policy to just do nothing of what they said they were going to do and to use suicide victims,Jean McConville and now Dessie Ellis to hide behind.

hatrickpatrick

Whatever happened to due process? If he has not been convicted of involvement in 50 murders by a jury of his peers, then for the purposes of judging his character, he was not involved in them.

This is a very nasty trend I've noticed in the media in recent years, and it leads to real life consequences for people. Remember Strauss Khan? The fact that he lost his job BEFORE the conclusion of the criminal court case against him is a disgrace. Innocent until proven guilty has always been one of the principles which sets democracy apart from tyranny, and tyranny of the media is just as bad as tyranny by an individual or political party.

RobFowl

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

principles which sets democracy apart from tyranny

And the rule of law and sanctitiy of human life are surely principles to be valued above most others?

hatrickpatrick

RobFowl wrote: »

And the rule of law and sanctitiy of human life are surely principles to be valued above most others?

Absolutely, which is why I despise SF - because many of its members or former members ARE criminally proven to have been involved in killing people.

But you simply cannot call for there to be consequences for this man's "50 murders" without first proving that he committed them. If there is enough evidence, by all means get him into a criminal trial before a jury of his peers and try and have him convicted, but until that happens he should not have his career affected by unproven allegations.

SoulandForm

SoulandForm wrote: »

Northern Ireland was not and is not an ordinary place. You cannot apply the rules of the south to it.

Where is Dessie from, again?

howiya wrote: »

You'd wonder how Tony Blair sleeps at night so

I've no time for Tony, either.

SoulandForm wrote: »

People died so you havent experienced British colonialism, so you are stuck like Wales in its present situation.

Surely you believe that all of mainland Britain should be one country, no? After all, that is the reasoning behind Irish Nationalism.

SoulandForm wrote: »

When Republic of Ireland government had UDA commanders personally invited down to meet the English Queen did you feel the same way? Do you feel the same way about your government throwing money at the Orange Order?

Could care less about the UDA, the UDF, the PIRA, the RIRA - they're all the same. The UDA were only invited down for being good boys and keeping the guns away. They love it and it makes them feel special, we could care less. What money has been thrown at the orange order?

tipptom wrote: »

They just put it out there to further their means in the same way as FG and Charlie Flanagan is using it now 30 years later to further their own means because of SFs threat to them nationally, and locally to mr Flanagan where SF polled very strongly and will oust him in the next election when FG dont have the anti FF bounce.

I would imagine the number of voters who would go from FG to SF would be an extremely miniscule percentage. All SF will get are the Labour and FF votes, and what does that tell you?

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Whatever happened to due process? If he has not been convicted of involvement in 50 murders by a jury of his peers, then for the purposes of judging his character, he was not involved in them.

This is a very nasty trend I've noticed in the media in recent years, and it leads to real life consequences for people. Remember Strauss Khan? The fact that he lost his job BEFORE the conclusion of the criminal court case against him is a disgrace. Innocent until proven guilty has always been one of the principles which sets democracy apart from tyranny, and tyranny of the media is just as bad as tyranny by an individual or political party.

You're now a defender of Strauss Khan? Hilarious. Don't go calling the media tyrannical - it hasn't been proven now has it?

And I think you're confusing justice with democracy...

oscarBravo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Remember Strauss Khan? The fact that he lost his job BEFORE the conclusion of the criminal court case against him is a disgrace.

Didn't he resign?

SoulandForm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Where is Dessie from, again?

What money has been thrown at the orange order?

He is from Ireland. Ireland is a pretty small country.

http://www.sceala.com/phpBB2/irish-forums-24228.html

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056798632

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

He is from Ireland. Ireland is a pretty small country.

http://www.sceala.com/phpBB2/irish-forums-24228.html

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056798632

Yer, how dare the orange lodges in rural areas get funding to repair buildings destroyed by violent republicans. Disgraceful. Thanks for the first link by the way, I was impressed by its neutrality and impartiality

hatrickpatrick

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're now a defender of Strauss Khan? Hilarious.

I'm not defending him, I'm simply pointing out that he has never been found guilty by a court of law of committing any offenses with regard to what he was accused with, and therefore the fact that his entire professional life was destroyed seems to me to be a great injustice. He lost his job and his hope of running for political office before any conviction or actual proof of any offense had been offered. He remains convictionless in the case, yet he also remains out of his IMF job.

By all means punish people who commit atrocious crimes, but to do so before they have been found guilty by an impartial jury is profoundly undemocratic.

Also, with regard to confusing justice with democracy, I think many would agree that justice is a core principle in most democracies, and that due process is a core principle in justice.

dickwod1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

There's a few issues here. One is that Sinn Fein are asking us to leave the past behind, but at the same time putting convicted bomb makers and gun runners up for election. How's that square? Why not remove the people with a terrorist past from the party, or at the very least have them retire from public roles?

dickwod1 wrote: »

So do you think Nelson Mandela should not have went into politics upon his release from prison?

murphaph wrote: »

Mandella was plotting to bomb a school. I don't think he's quite the saint some people make him out to be. However, by the time Ellis started bomb making for the IRA the position of Catholics in NI couldn't be compared to that of black south Africans under apartheid!

So still unanswered ... Why cant you or Valdimir answer the question?

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

Yer, how dare the orange lodges in rural areas get funding to repair buildings destroyed by violent republicans. Disgraceful. Thanks for the first link by the way, I was impressed by its neutrality and impartiality

They are getting funding for a bit more than repairing halls.

Yes the first link is pretty fair. Im glad you can you see that.

The question arises how can we do something about removing the OO completely from public life?

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

They are getting funding for a bit more than repairing halls.

Yes the first link is pretty fair. Im glad you can you see that.

The question arises how can we do something about removing the OO completely from public life?

I see Sarcasm is lost on you. The orange order will not going anywhere I'm afraid, they are and will remain an important part of the unionist culture along with the other loyal orders including the apprentice boys of which I am a member.

K-9

And another Northern Ireland thread goes way off topic, funding of the Orange Order in the Republic is now relevant apparently, the subject really does get far more latitude in that regard on the forum. I can't see this thread lasting much longer tbh, far more interest in personal digs than the topic.

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

I see Sarcasm is lost on you. The orange order will not going anywhere I'm afraid, they are and will remain an important part of the unionist culture along with the other loyal orders including the apprentice boys of which I am a member.

I have no problems with the Apprentice Boys.

I do with the Black and Orange.

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

I see Sarcasm is lost on you. The orange order will not going anywhere I'm afraid, they are and will remain an important part of the unionist culture along with the other loyal orders including the apprentice boys of which I am a member.

Okay here a Bible believing Protestant view of the Orange- http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/orange.htm .

Unionism is good for who?

gallag

SoulandForm wrote: »

Okay here a Bible believing Protestant view of the Orange- http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/orange.htm .

Unionism is good for who?

I am not a fan of the oo but it is hilarious that you post the opinion of one person and get on like thats that then.

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

I am not a fan of the oo but it is hilarious that you post the opinion of one person and get on like thats that then.

I dont understand your point.

I think your man is a bit of a "guilty prod" and his view of history isnt correct...But when it comes to the Orange he is correct.

The fact of celebrating things like Dolly's Brae and the "Battle of Diamond" shows where they are coming from.

K-9

Don't really see where this thread is going, can't see what value or anything new it ads, I think it has just run its course.

Chuck Stone

SoulandForm wrote: »

Okay here a Bible believing Protestant view of the Orange- http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/orange.htm .

Unionism is good for who?

From the link above.

it is simply an unthinkable thought that God could be anything other than pleased with, and completely behind, all the workings, attitudes and behaviour of the order. Indeed any challenge to the Order's enormous grip on the country is immediately viewed as religious persecution and produces a strong religious / martyr backlash.

'God approves of our sectarian terratorialism'

I think the OO might have missed the whole Age of Enlightenment thing that happened a couple of hundred years ago.

murphaph

dickwod1 wrote: »

So still unanswered ... Why cant you or Valdimir answer the question?

Sorry, I thought I had. To be clear for you then: No, Nelson Mandella IMHO is not a role model any more than Dessie Eliis is and I would not have voted for him, knowing his past. I don't believe he even did a particularly good job in SA as their president.

If the people in Ellis' constituency who voted for him are comfortable with the likelihood that his components were used to murder people then I feel slightly despondent. Irish politicians generally aren't great, but the vast majority have not been involved murder which is, no matter way SF and their supporters might like to spin it, much much worse than any corrupt acts undertaken by "normal" politicos.

Voting for an individual connected to manufacturing murder weapons because he helped with social housing or whatever is pretty disgraceful IMO.

gurramok

murphaph wrote: »

If the people in Ellis' constituency who voted for him are comfortable with the likelihood that his components were used to murder people then I feel slightly despondent. Irish politicians generally aren't great, but the vast majority have not been involved murder which is, no matter way SF and their supporters might like to spin it, much much worse than any corrupt acts undertaken by "normal" politicos.

Voting for an individual connected to manufacturing murder weapons because he helped with social housing or whatever is pretty disgraceful IMO.

Despite your allegations, i'll say the following.

As I said earlier in the thread, Finglas people voted for him since 1999. You have to ask why they did and many people who live there know why. The main parties(FF\FG\Lab) neglected Finglas over generations leaving it to the hands of serious anti-social elements. Nothing was done for over 30 years and SF filled the void, this has happened in deprived communities all over Dublin.

murphaph

gurramok wrote: »

Despite your allegations, i'll say the following.

As I said earlier in the thread, Finglas people voted for him since 1999. You have to ask why they did and many people who live there know why. The main parties(FF\FG\Lab) neglected Finglas over generations leaving it to the hands of serious anti-social elements. Nothing was done for over 30 years and SF filled the void, this has happened in deprived communities all over Dublin.

I'm not even saying he hasn't done something useful. I don't live in his constituency (the nearest I came was when I lived in D15) but to me it's not the issue. I would rather have a poorly performing corrupt FFer representing me in Dail Eireann than a hardworking SFer who has had a hand in murdering people.

I would of course rather a clean politician who had no connection to either corruption or murder (even if that politician was a SFer as someday SF will (hopefully) have no members who have any connection to the sorts of crimes Ellis is linked to!) but having to choose, I'd choose the corrupt useless guy over the murderer (and yes I know Ellis has not been convicted of murder but how many of our politicians have been convicted of corruption either).

gurramok

murphaph wrote: »

I'm not even saying he hasn't done something useful. I don't live in his constituency (the nearest I came was when I lived in D15) but to me it's not the issue. I would rather have a poorly performing corrupt FFer representing me in Dail Eireann than a hardworking SFer who has had a hand in murdering people.

I would of course rather a clean politician who had no connection to either corruption or murder (even if that politician was a SFer as someday SF will (hopefully) have no members who have any connection to the sorts of crimes Ellis is linked to!) but having to choose, I'd choose the corrupt useless guy over the murderer (and yes I know Ellis has not been convicted of murder but how many of our politicians have been convicted of corruption either).

Hard worker is the key here, a useless corrupt guy is useless. The constituents who live in poverty and despair amongst severe anti-social elements without hope of a resolution over a generation needed action done at a political level, why would anyone vote for a useless politician? Somebody who delivers was who they voted for.

The void could of been filled by a extreme right wing party, a party of Tony Gregorys or a party of Joe Higgins, it just so happens SF jumped in at the right time and were rewarded.

dvpower

gurramok wrote: »

Despite your allegations, i'll say the following.

As I said earlier in the thread, Finglas people voted for him since 1999. You have to ask why they did and many people who live there know why. The main parties(FF\FG\Lab) neglected Finglas over generations leaving it to the hands of serious anti-social elements. Nothing was done for over 30 years and SF filled the void, this has happened in deprived communities all over Dublin.

2011 was the first time Dublin North West elected Ellis to DE (along with two LAB candidates). In all previous GEs, he was rejected in favour of FF and LAB.

In the last local elections in Finglas, Ellis was elected along with candidates of each of the parties that you say neglected the people there.

You have to ask why the people of Finglas are voting for candidates who are neglecting them.

tipptom

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry, I thought I had. To be clear for you then: No, Nelson Mandella IMHO is not a role model any more than Dessie Eliis is and I would not have voted for him, knowing his past. I don't believe he even did a particularly good job in SA as their president.

If the people in Ellis' constituency who voted for him are comfortable with the likelihood that his components were used to murder people then I feel slightly despondent. Irish politicians generally aren't great, but the vast majority have not been involved murder which is, no matter way SF and their supporters might like to spin it, much much worse than any corrupt acts undertaken by "normal" politicos.

Voting for an individual connected to manufacturing murder weapons because he helped with social housing or whatever is pretty disgraceful IMO.

Your opinion of Mandela would be at variance with nearly every country in the world including England who bestowed honours and garlands on him bar ironically enough the Unionist people of NI who hold the same opinion of him as you do.

I presume you would not have voted for Eamonn DeValera or Sean LeMeas either who served and became leaders in our parliment giving your criteria of not voting for people who were involved in any conflict.

FTA69

tipptom wrote: »

Your opinion of Mandela would be at variance with nearly every country in the world including England who bestowed honours and garlands on him bar ironically enough the Unionist people of NI who hold the same opinion of him as you do.

I presume you would not have voted for Eamonn DeValera or Sean LeMeas either who served and became leaders in our parliment giving your criteria of not voting for people who were involved in any conflict.

Including England? Sure Margaret Thatcher was an ally of South Africa and famously dubbed Mandela and the like as "terrorists".

gurramok

dvpower wrote: »

2011 was the first time Dublin North West elected Ellis to DE (along with two LAB candidates). In all previous GEs, he was rejected in favour of FF and LAB.

In the last local elections in Finglas, Ellis was elected along with candidates of each of the parties that you say neglected the people there.

You have to ask why the people of Finglas are voting for candidates who are neglecting them.

Trying to know more local knowledge are we?!

Dublin NW includes middle class and well to do areas like Glasnevin. It also includes mixed areas like Santry and Whitehall.

Dessie Ellis was elected as a local councillor in the Finglas ward in 1999 and kept the seat since then.

As you have not read the thread, Dessie Ellis electoral core base is in Finglas and recently some of Ballymun, not Glasnevin, Whitehall or Santry. As you know, turnouts in deprived areas are lower than in middle class areas so to get the voters out takes alot more effort, that helped FF before.

dvpower

gurramok wrote: »

[...]As you have not read the thread[...]

I've 39 posts in this thread. I've read it alright.

gurramok wrote: »

Trying to know more local knowledge are we?!

Dublin NW includes middle class and well to do areas like Glasnevin. It also includes mixed areas like Santry and Whitehall.

Dessie Ellis was elected as a local councillor in the Finglas ward in 1999 and kept the seat since then.

As you have not read the thread, Dessie Ellis electoral core base is in Finglas and recently some of Ballymun, not Glasnevin, Whitehall or Santry. As you know, turnouts in deprived areas are lower than in middle class areas so to get the voters out takes alot more effort, that helped FF before.

I'm quite familiar with the area thanks.

What I'm confused about is you using the fact the Ellis was elected as evidence of him being a good representative (which is fair enough), but at the same time all of the other candidates that they elected 'neglected' them.
It doesn't add up. Why do you think the people of Finglas voted for FF/LAB/FG candidates, if those candidates have been neglecting them.

gurramok

dvpower wrote: »

What I'm confused about is you using the fact the Ellis was elected as evidence of him being a good representative (which is fair enough), but at the same time all of the other candidates that they elected 'neglected' them.
It doesn't add up. Why do you think the people of Finglas voted for FF/LAB/FG candidates, if those candidates have been neglecting them.

They voted in greater numbers in Finglas(especially South and West) for SF than they did in Glasnevin for example. Of course other candidates received votes in Finglas(far more in the East where the likes of Tormey is based), they got fewer from the late 90s onwards.
As you know Finglas is only one area of Dublin NW, SF did not get all 3 TD seats as they have no base in the likes of Whitehall\Santry\Glasnevin!

golfball37

tipptom wrote: »

Your opinion of Mandela would be at variance with nearly every country in the world including England who bestowed honours and garlands on him bar ironically enough the Unionist people of NI who hold the same opinion of him as you do.

I presume you would not have voted for Eamonn DeValera or Sean LeMeas either who served and became leaders in our parliment giving your criteria of not voting for people who were involved in any conflict.

Thatcher famously referred to Mr Mandela as a terrorist in the 1980's

murphaph

tipptom wrote: »

Your opinion of Mandela would be at variance with nearly every country in the world including England who bestowed honours and garlands on him bar ironically enough the Unionist people of NI who hold the same opinion of him as you do.

I presume you would not have voted for Eamonn DeValera or Sean LeMeas either who served and became leaders in our parliment giving your criteria of not voting for people who were involved in any conflict.

It's not just about people "involved in conflict". Mandella was plotting to blow up a school full of white kids. The IRA actually did blow up children, possibly with Ellis' weaponry (we'll never know exactly what murders if any his equipment were used in, but the intent was there from Ellis). There's conflict and conflict that breaches even the various Geneva conventions! I don't expect you to be convince by my arguments and i won't be convinced that it's ok to vote for someone who made murder weapons for an organisation that engaged in the murder of children among others.

I don't know what unionists in NI think of Mandella. Do you know what all of them think about him really? I wouldn't have voted for DeValera for a whole host of reasons and believe that he set us back as a country by decades, but that's another matter.

As for what honours Britain has bestowed on Mandella, well, so what? We as a nation sent regards to Germany upon the death of Adolf Hitler...but I dare say very few of us were sad to see his demise at the time or today!

golfball37

Its a very spurious claim to say the intent was there to kill children with respect of Dessie Ellis- if thats what you are claiming below? Whatever the IRA were I dont for a second believe any of them went out to intentionally kill children.

" Mandella was plotting to blow up a school full of white kids. The IRA actually did blow up children, possibly with Ellis' weaponry (we'll never know exactly what murders if any his equipment were used in, but the intent was there from Ellis)."