Dessie Ellis - The Sinn Fein TD who is linked to 50 murders

MadsL

I'll just leave this here. This is Gerry Adams on David Cameron admitting British collusion in Pat Finucane's murder.

Gerry Adams, the Sinn Féin president and Irish deputy, said: "The information provided by Desmond de Silva is a damning indictment of British state collusion in the murder of citizens. It reveals some of the extent to which this existed. It does not diminish the need for a public inquiry. On the contrary, it makes such an inquiry more necessary than ever."

It would seem a different story when it comes to the other side of things and then public inquiry is the way to go.

Us: Not Bothered
Them: Public Inquiry, dammit.

tipptom

freddiek wrote: »

good man Charlie Flanagan...

the Brits could always rely on fine gael to do what they asked of them in the 26 counties

Cant wait for the comment fron John Unionist

TheUsual

Well based on the reaction to this, Sinn Fein are obviously making gains in the "middle classes" as described by the above mod.

"Middle Classes" meaning educated, right-thinking people. Never think of a "United Ireland", British History in Ireland and is it ok to celebrate blood spilled by the "good IRA" in 1916 but not in 1974 by the "bad IRA".
26 county rebels so they are, and Charlie Flanagan a proud leader of them.

FTA69

Is anyone here actually seriously surprised? In all honesty like? Dessie Ellis was a senior member of the IRA for years, a fact that he never tried to hide from anyone; least of all the people who elected him and voted him in as a councillor in poll after poll since the 1990s. Arthur Morgan and Martin Ferris, were also senior members of the IRA, the latter being especially so. Why has Dessie Ellis' case suddenly become so important when there are numerous other former IRA members currently in Leinster House. Was it a big secret that Sinn Féin and the IRA were connected or something? Are these recent revelations?

AS for the "not bothered" comment, the British government have no right to comment on clandestine killings in Ireland considering they themselves were behind enough of them. And refuse to admit to them to this day. Even last year Enda Kenny asked Cameron to supply files relating to the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and was basically told to f*ck off. I've no time for Sinn Féin, but Ellis is dead right in taking this attitude toward this particular document.

MadsL

FTA69 wrote: »

AS for the "not bothered" comment, the British government have no right to comment on clandestine killings in Ireland considering they themselves were behind enough of them. And refuse to admit to them to this day. Even last year Enda Kenny asked Cameron to supply files relating to the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and was basically told to f*ck off. I've no time for Sinn Féin, but Ellis is dead right in taking this attitude toward this particular document.

Would you be in favour of a Truth and Reconciliation process to get these skeletons out of closets?

FTA69

MadsL wrote: »

Would you be in favour of a Truth and Reconciliation process to get these skeletons out of closets?

As an Irish citizen I'd be delighted to see it but it'll never happen because neither side wants it to. The British will never fully admit their role in Ireland. It took them 40 years to apologise for their troops killing 14 civilians on the streets of Derry, they'll never admit to the likes of colluding with Loyalists as to do so would mean their entire narrative throughout the conflict will be shown to a lie. If they fully disclosed their role in using proxies to murder their own citizens then the "keeping the peace" agenda they propagated will be shown to be nonsense.

On the other side you can be sure Sinn Féin doesn't want a truth and reconciliation committee because while they're trying to build a political presence in the south, the last thing they need is skeletons from the conflict (and there are many) coming out of the press. Gerry Adams denies he was ever in the IRA, he's done it so long now he can never do otherwise. A truth committee is a good stick Sinn Féin can use to beat the Brits with over collusion, but it will never happen because neither side can afford to have one.

spikethedog

MadsL wrote: »

Would you be in favour of a Truth and Reconciliation process to get these skeletons out of closets?

SF have been calling for one for years.
I haven't heard much from FG about setting one up until today.
Maybe there's a lot of skeleton's on both sides.
I'd love to find out the truth about the Dublin/Monaghan bombings for example.

Sully

spikethedog wrote: »

SF have been calling for one for years.
I haven't heard much from FG about setting one up until today.
Maybe there's a lot of skeleton's on both sides.
I'd love to find out the truth about the Dublin/Monaghan bombings for example.

Of course they would, because they can be safe in the knowledge that its highly unlikely to happen.

murphaph

Nodin wrote: »

the electorate may have twigged he was a bit of a republican when they voted for him.

Indeed. If the people of Dublin North–West want a convicted terrorist representing them in our parliament then that's their right.

Rascasse

Sully wrote: »

Of course they would, because they can be safe in the knowledge that its highly unlikely to happen.

Completely impossible to have a South African style TRC. I suspect what they really want is a blanket amnesty.

MadsL

Currently MPs are disqualified from Parliament if they are sentenced to a prison term of more than 12 months. Is there any such disbarment from standing as Teachtaí Dála?

Should there be?

GRMA

MadsL wrote: »

Currently MPs are disqualified from Parliament if they are sentenced to a prison term of more than 12 months. Is there any such disbarment from standing as Teachtaí Dála?

Should there be?

That was an anti democratic measure brought in to stop hunger strikers like bobby sands from getting elected. That's why his election agent ran after bobby died. It stops people who are in jail from running.

MadsL

GRMA wrote: »

That was an anti democratic measure brought in to stop hunger strikers like bobby sands from getting elected. That's why his election agent ran after bobby died. It stops people who are in jail from running.

Is there any reason you can think of to keep it in place now?

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

Should there be?

If there isn't, I'd like to see one introduced. I don't think anybody convicted of any crime should be allowed to stand as a candidate. I mean, where do you draw the line? Bomb making? Rape? Murder? We've enough problems with corrupt carry on from people who haven't been convicted of crimes to have to worry about criminals as well IMO.

spikethedog

Sully wrote: »

Of course they would, because they can be safe in the knowledge that its highly unlikely to happen.

Is that their fault too?

NufcNavan

Haha. So if you were never convicted of anything then that proves to everyone that you are your typical squeaky clean politician.

Politics. Gotta love it.

spikethedog

murphaph wrote: »

If there isn't, I'd like to see one introduced. I don't think anybody convicted of any crime should be allowed to stand as a candidate. I mean, where do you draw the line? Bomb making? Rape? Murder? We've enough problems with corrupt carry on from people who haven't been convicted of crimes to have to worry about criminals as well IMO.

Be careful what you wish for.

MadsL

murphaph wrote: »

If there isn't, I'd like to see one introduced. I don't think anybody convicted of any crime should be allowed to stand as a candidate. I mean, where do you draw the line? Bomb making? Rape? Murder? We've enough problems with corrupt carry on from people who haven't been convicted of crimes to have to worry about criminals as well IMO.

I'd be happy with just one rule in that would boot Lowry out of it! Hopefully the SIPO investigation will eject him.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lowry-may-face-standards-probe-after-380-complaints-3312122.html

MadsL

Dessie Ellis wrote:

"I enthusiastically support the establishment of an Independent International Truth and Reconciliation Commission to deal with the legacy of conflict in Ireland,"

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/sinn-fein-denies-murder-claims-3338202.html

Well, well.

spikethedog

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/sinn-fein-denies-murder-claims-3338202.html

Well, well.

Well, well, what?

GRMA

Responding to remarks this evening by Fine Gael TD Charlie Flanagan, Sinn Féin Dublin North West TD Dessie Ellis said:

“It is interesting that Fine Gael's Charlie Flanagan places such importance on the unsubstantiated claims of British intelligence – the same shadowy forces who murdered so many Irish citizens over the years.

“I'm sure that it hasn't escaped Deputy Flanagan's attention that I was cleared by a British court of these trumped up allegations which begs the question as to where he is coming from.

“Mr Flanagan mentions without any hint of irony the need for an Independent Truth & Reconciliation Commission despite the fact that it is Sinn Féin who have led such calls and despite the fact that Mr Flanagan's government has done nothing at all to support the establishment of such a process.

“I enthusiastically support the establishment of an Independent International Truth and Reconciliation Commission to deal with the legacy of conflict in Ireland. I hope Charlie Flanagan will follow up his new found support for such a process with positive action to pressurize his colleagues in government to act on this.

“Finally, let me say that I am very proud of my involvement in the republican struggle over the years and of the leadership role republicans have played in the peace process, despite the best efforts of nay-sayers such as Charlie Flanagan and his ilk.”


So he was cleared by a British court.... An IRA man cleared with the deck stacked against him... good enough for me

Sierra Oscar

GRMA wrote: »

So he was cleared by a British court.... An IRA man cleared with the deck stacked against him... good enough for me

Are you familiar with the court case? If so, you should be well aware that his entire defence was based upon exploiting a loophole within the British legal system. You can read up on the case here.

Also, aren't you not aware that Ellis has himself publicly admitted that he was a prominent bomb-maker for the IRA? Yet now he claims that he has no blood on his hands?

The Waltzing Consumer

GRMA wrote: »

So he was cleared by a British court.... An IRA man cleared with the deck stacked against him... good enough for me

What was he charged with? Was it possession of explosives?

GRMA

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

What was he charged with? Was it possession of explosives?

He was jailed in Ireland for explosives stuff... he was then extradited after a hunger strike to england where he was tried for murder I think, or conspiracy to cause explosions, and was acquitted.

MadsL

GRMA wrote: »

He was jailed in Ireland for explosives stuff... he was then extradited after a hunger strike to england where he was tried for murder I think, and was acquitted.

On a technicality or was his innocence proved?

Stheno

Fattes wrote: »

It is at very worst highly likely, was Martin McGuinness on the Army council again highly likely is there anyone out there that believes otherwise even when they are lying through their teeth probably not.

Much and all as I have little time for Sinn Fein McGuinness has never denied he was involved with the IRA, of all of them he appears to be the most open to admitting it.

murphaph wrote: »

If there isn't, I'd like to see one introduced. I don't think anybody convicted of any crime should be allowed to stand as a candidate. I mean, where do you draw the line? Bomb making? Rape? Murder? We've enough problems with corrupt carry on from people who haven't been convicted of crimes to have to worry about criminals as well IMO.

The irony is that if you are declared bankrupt you cannot remain or be elected as a TD, yet you can spend years in prison for criminal offences and be elected

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/sinn-fein-denies-murder-claims-3338202.html

Well, well.

I suspect in the full knowledge that one will never occur.

Haleys comet will reappear before it would be over.

The Waltzing Consumer

GRMA wrote: »

He was jailed in Ireland for explosives stuff... he was then extradited after a hunger strike to england where he was tried for murder I think, or conspiracy to cause explosions, and was acquitted.

So he was not charged or cleared of murder?

GRMA

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Are you familiar with the court case? If so, you should be well aware that his entire defence was based upon exploiting a loophole within the British legal system. You can read up on the case here.

Also, aren't you not aware that Ellis has himself publicly admitted that he was a prominent bomb-maker for the IRA? Yet now he claims that he has no blood on his hands?

Hardly a loophole. If someone is extradited to stand trial for a certain charge then that is the charge they should face.

Sierra Oscar

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

What was he charged with? Was it possession of explosives?

Conspiracy to cause explosions alongside possession of explosive substances with intent. Ellis argued that under the then legislation under which he was charged, the CPS had no jurisdiction - as he was not physically within England at the time of the offence. The CPS then wished to alter the charge to overcome the loophole, however as he was extradited under a different pretence the case was dropped.

It was a technicality. Anyone who is trying to portray otherwise is not exactly up to speed with the case - or else they are trying to rewrite history, and there are many out there intent on ensuring SF do not rewrite history. It is well known that Ellis was one of the kingpin bomb-makers within the IRA. This has been openly admitted by Ellis and others within the IRA. To claim that his bombs did not kill people is ludicrous. It is not acceptable for SF to try and rewrite history now that it does not neatly fit in with their new political aspirations.

GRMA

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

So he was not charged or cleared of murder?

Nowhere is it alleged that he is a murderer? But that he is "linked" to murders, ie perhaps made bombs.

The Waltzing Consumer

GRMA wrote: »

Nowhere is it alleged that he is a murderer? But that he is "linked" to murders, ie perhaps made bombs.

So there is a TD who has alleged links to more murders then the Manson family, to bombings in England which killed civilians like children, OAPs and adults?? And SF are happy about that?

GRMA

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

So there is a TD who has alleged links to more murders then the Manson family, to bombings in England which killed civilians like children, OAPs and adults?? And SF are happy about that?

Alleged by whom? British security services who have made up umpteen things over the years, started wars over their "allegations" and murdered countless Irish civilians - and their allegations about Dessie were not even concrete enough to stand up in court or to bring new charges about!


And you believe these allegations? Why? Because, like FG, it satisfies your agenda?

dvpower

GRMA wrote: »

Nowhere is it alleged that he is a murderer? But that he is "linked" to murders, ie perhaps made bombs.

Only 50 instances of conspiracy to commit murder!
That's ok then.

murphaph

GRMA wrote: »

So he was cleared by a British court.... An IRA man cleared with the deck stacked against him... good enough for me

What about the conviction he received in our country though?

MadsL

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

So there is a TD who has alleged links to more murders then the Manson family, to bombings in England which killed civilians like children, OAPs and adults?? And SF are happy about that?

More to the point, the electorate seem happy about it. Or are in blissful ignorance.

I believe the forensic evidence is his fingerprints on the bombs.

The Waltzing Consumer

GRMA wrote: »

Alleged by whom? British security services who have made up umpteen things over the years, started wars over their "allegations" and murdered countless Irish civilians - and their allegations about Dessie were not even concrete enough to stand up in court or to bring new charges about!


And you believe these allegations? Why? Because, like FG, it satisfies your agenda?

Sorry GRMA, but your tone reminds me of fanatical Bertie Ahern defenders. If SF can accuse other TDs of corruption over health centres without evidence last week, then fifty murders can simply not be cast aside like what is happening given the reaction of SF today.
:eek:

The Waltzing Consumer

NufcNavan wrote: »

I love how every political party in the Dail has had members at some point that killed people.

How many have members now accused of killing people, sitting right now? Not decades ago, but now?

Sierra Oscar

GRMA wrote: »

Alleged by whom? British security services who have made up umpteen things over the years, started wars over their "allegations" and murdered countless Irish civilians - and their allegations about Dessie were not even concrete enough to stand up in court or to bring new charges about!


And you believe these allegations? Why? Because, like FG, it satisfies your agenda?

. . . but Ellis has already admitted being involved in the bomb making process. Yet you don't think it is reasonable to suggest that he has been linked to any killings through the use of those bombs?

GRMA

How come the British or Irish courts never tried him over it, if they had such great evidence? He served time for what he did, 10 years and suffered greatly on Hunger Strike. He has built up an exemplary record over the past decades as a community activist and representative.


Fact remains that Dessie Elllis was a major player in the peace process and has left his IRA activity long behind him... is that not a good thing?

NufcNavan

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

How many have members now accused of killing people, sitting right now? Not decades ago, but now?

I'd imagine SF are, but that is deflecting from the point that every party has blood on their hands. Just because SF do in more recent times doesn't negate the fact that FF/FG were both set up by people who murdered other people.

Stheno

GRMA wrote: »

How come the British or Irish courts never tried him over it, if they had such great evidence? He served time for what he did, 10 years and suffered greatly on Hunger Strike. He has built up an exemplary record over the past decades as a community activist and representative.


Fact remains that Dessie Elllis was a major player in the peace process and has left his IRA activity long behind him... is that not a good thing?

I don't see the likes of Shane O'Doherty running for public office.

GRMA

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

. . . but Ellis has already admitted being involved in the bomb making process. Yet you don't think it is reasonable to suggest that he has been linked to any killings through the use of those bombs?

I dont believe anything rags like the Indo cme out with or the British security services do.


IMO if someone was a member of the IRA then they were a member and they worked towards a common goal and fought a common enemy in the same war


Whether or not you think that was a good thing is another matter.

I don't care what they did individually really I dont see how it really matters what individual members of the IRA did, fact is they were in the IRA.

MadsL

NufcNavan wrote: »

I love how every political party in the Dail has had members at some point that killed people.

err.... bring back the Greens?

The Waltzing Consumer

GRMA wrote: »

I dont believe anything rags like the Indo cme out with or the British security services do.


IMO if someone was a member of the IRA then they were a member and they worked towards a common goal and fought a common enemy in the same war


Whether or not you think that was a good thing is another matter.

I don't care what they did individually really I dont see how it really matters what individual members of the IRA did, fact is they were in the IRA.

So there is no difference between someone killing children in England with a bomb and someone shooting a soldier in Nothern Ireland in the early Seventies?

The Waltzing Consumer

NufcNavan wrote: »

I'd imagine SF are, but that is deflecting from the point that every party has blood on their hands. Just because SF do in more recent times doesn't negate the fact that FF/FG were both set up by people who murdered other people.

Are you for real?? History as a justification??

GRMA

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

So there is no difference between someone killing children in England with a bomb and someone shooting a soldier in Nothern Ireland in the early Seventies?

No, what I am getting at is that there is a degree of collective responsibility.


Which I think most people accept... Dessie was in the IRA... the IRA did x.... what year are we in again? Nearly 2013? Could have sworn it was the late 80s

NufcNavan

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Are you for real?? History as a justification??

I haven't tried to justify anything.

The Waltzing Consumer

GRMA wrote: »

No, what I am getting at is that there is a degree of collective responsibility.


Which I think most people accept... Dessie was in the IRA... the IRA did x.... what year are we in again? Nearly 2013? Could have sworn it was the late 80s

I accept that. But he is a sitting TD. That is why this is in this forum.

GRMA

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I accept that. But he is a sitting TD. That is why this is in this forum.

So? Everyone knew he was a former IRA member when they voted for him, he never pretended otherwise and is very open about being in the IRA

Sully

GRMA wrote: »

So? Everyone knew he was a former IRA member when they voted for him, he never pretended otherwise and is very open about being in the IRA

Not everyone.