Dessie Ellis - The Sinn Fein TD who is linked to 50 murders

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Excellent post up there by storker.

There's a few issues here. One is that Sinn Fein are asking us to leave the past behind, but at the same time putting convicted bomb makers and gun runners up for election. How's that square? Why not remove the people with a terrorist past from the party, or at the very least have them retire from public roles?

The other is using Sinn Fein's past as a means of deflection, which isn't really on. I think the point Kenny was trying to make was that you can't accuse someone of criminality in the Dail while at the same time having people with a criminal past sitting on your own benches. That's fair enough but he did it so cackhandedly that everyone just saw him trying to dodge a question by raising McConville. McDonald wasn't entirely blameless either and if she'd toned it down a bit she wouldn't have given him a in. But it worked out well for her in the end given Kenny's meltdown.

We might be without a Tánaiste if that were to happen.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

We might be without a Tánaiste if that were to happen.

That's a pretty serious allegation.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

That's a pretty serious allegation.

What part?

Sully

Ghandee wrote: »

We might be without a Tánaiste if that were to happen.

He wasn't a member of the IRA or an advocate/supporter/leader of the IRA. He was a member of a party that had links to the Official Sinn Fein alright, but that didn't last long as the party soon cut ties and became the Workers Party.

He didn't make bombs that would be used to kill people. He isn't a convicted criminal who skipped bail to avoid going to jail in Ireland and went on hunger strike to avoid being sent to the UK for trial. He isn't a former IRA leader and he isn't someone connected with the deaths of people.

Current Sinn Fein has a lot of deep dirty ties that cannot be matched by any other party.

Completely different.

freddiek

"He was a member of a party that had links to the Official Sinn Fein"


this is not entirely accurate. Official SF was the party and he was in it. joined the youth version of it while at UCG

anything beyond that is conjecture but he surely would have had known that their finances were not acquired by "traditional" methods

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

We might be without a Tánaiste if that were to happen.

Either you're alleging Gilmore used to be a terrorist (which is news to me) or you misread my post.

Ghandee

Sully wrote: »

He wasn't a member of the IRA or an advocate/supporter/leader of the IRA. He was a member of a party that had links to the Official Sinn Fein alright, but that didn't last long as the party soon cut ties and became the Workers Party.

He didn't make bombs that would be used to kill people. He isn't a convicted criminal who skipped bail to avoid going to jail in Ireland and went on hunger strike to avoid being sent to the UK for trial. He isn't a former IRA leader and he isn't someone connected with the deaths of people.

Current Sinn Fein has a lot of deep dirty ties that cannot be matched by any other party.

Completely different.

Republican club.

Look it up.

dvpower

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Either you're alleging Gilmore used to be a terrorist (which is news to me) or you misread my post.

Or is yet again attempting to bring the thread off topic.

guinnessdrinker

Sully wrote: »

He was a member of a party that had links to the Official Sinn Fein alright, but that didn't last long as the party soon cut ties and became the Workers Party.

Just to clarify on this point, he was a member of a party that changed its name to the Workers Party, formerly known as Sinn Fein The Workers Party formerly known as Official Sinn Fein.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Or is yet again attempting to bring the thread off topic.

On the contrary, if 'allegations' are to be taken seriously, then this rule must apply to everyone.

Gilmore was a 'sticky'.

Are we going to go down the 'good IRA, bad IRA' path here?

Sully

freddiek wrote: »

"He was a member of a party that had links to the Official Sinn Fein"


this is not entirely accurate. Official SF was the party and he was in it. joined the youth version of it while at UCG

anything beyond that is conjecture but he surely would have had known that their finances were not acquired by "traditional" methods

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Just to clarify on this point, he was a member of a party that changed its name to the Workers Party, formerly known as Sinn Fein The Workers Party formerly known as Official Sinn Fein.

Happy to clarify that he joined a party that was both, that soon after became just the one and was a member of the UCG Republican Club which was affiliated also with Official Sinn Fein.

Ghandee wrote: »

Republican club.

Look it up.

As above. But my point still stands.

freddiek

i would doubt that Ellis was an "ira leader". while he is known as having been a bomb-maker, the leadership would have been Northern-dominated when he became involved

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

On the contrary, if 'allegations' are to be taken seriously, then this rule must apply to everyone.

Gilmore was a 'sticky'.

Are we going to go down the 'good IRA, bad IRA' path here?

Are you saying that EG was a member of the OIRA?

Red About Town

Sully wrote: »

He was a member of a party that had links to the Official Sinn Fein alright, but that didn't last long as the party soon cut ties and became the Workers Party.

The 'ties weren't cut' with the paramilitary wing when Official Sinn Fein changed their name to the Workers Party.

Paddy De Plasterer

freddiek wrote: »

i would doubt that Ellis was an "ira leader". while he is known as having been a bomb-maker, the leadership would have been Northern-dominated when he became involved

I think bombs normally kill people and tear limbs apart, exposing guts and gore.

Red About Town

dvpower wrote: »

Are you saying that EG was a member of the OIRA?

Part of the same movement so you would have to assume he supported the illegal methods of that paramilitary organisation (e.g armed robbery to fund a political party)

Sully

freddiek wrote: »

i would doubt that Ellis was an "ira leader". while he is known as having been a bomb-maker, the leadership would have been Northern-dominated when he became involved

Not the issue being discussed though. Its just weird that Sinn Fein have a problem with James Reilly who they claim that he acted corruptly and hold various motions of no confidence yet they are defending one of their own TDs who is a convicted criminal who made bombs for the IRA that would have killed many people including children.

He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone.

dvpower

Red About Town wrote: »

Part of the same movement so you would have to assume he supported the illegal methods of that paramilitary organisation (e.g armed robbery to fund a political party)

He may we'll have been in a 'movement' but that's a far cry from being a terrorist. Just like any SF member during the troubles shouldn't be lumped in with the IRA (for example, no one would say that every SF member supported the Warrington child killings).

Dessie Ellis is a convicted terrorist, who has now been linked with 50 murders.

Anyone trying to equate that with Gilmore is really only trying to deflect.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

He may we'll have been in a 'movement' but that's a far cry from being a terrorist. Just like any SF member during the troubles shouldn't be lumped in with the IRA (for example, no one would say that every SF member supported the Warrington child killings).

Dessie Ellis is a convicted terrorist, who has now been linked with 50 murders.

Anyone trying to equate that with Gilmore is really only trying to deflect.

Lol......

So by your definition, Gilmore is a hypocrite (when he launched his attack on Mary Lou)?

People in glass houses and all that?

freddiek

Sully wrote: »

Not the issue being discussed though. Its just weird that Sinn Fein have a problem with James Reilly who they claim that he acted corruptly and hold various motions of no confidence yet they are defending one of their own TDs who is a convicted criminal who made bombs for the IRA that would have killed many people including children.

He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone.

whyd you say he was a Leader then?

Sully

freddiek wrote: »

whyd you say he was a Leader then?

Sorry, I don't understand your post?

guinnessdrinker

Sully wrote: »

Not the issue being discussed though. Its just weird that Sinn Fein have a problem with James Reilly who they claim that he acted corruptly and hold various motions of no confidence yet they are defending one of their own TDs who is a convicted criminal who made bombs for the IRA that would have killed many people including children.

He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone.

In fairness SF are not the only party to have a problem with James Reilly. All parties apart from FG seem to have issues with him.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

So by your definition, Gilmore is a hypocrite (when he launched his attack on Mary Lou)?

A member of a terrorist organization, downgraded to a member of a party with links to that organization, downgraded to a hypocrite.

Good backtracking. You'll be voting for him in a page or two at this rate.

Sully

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

In fairness SF are not the only party to have a problem with James Reilly. All parties apart from FG seem to have issues with him.

Indeed, but that's not the point I was making. I'm not justifying Reilly in any shape or form.

Einhard

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The establishment doesn't want the spotlight shone on it by SF so it tries to deflect its glare by bringing up the conflict.

Eh, the papers are released every year. Considering SF are in the teens nationally in polls, I think you're giving them a tad too much credit there. Anyway, aren't SF very much part of the establishment in the North. And when they get into power here, it'll be much the same.

Chuck Stone

dvpower wrote: »

Dessie Ellis is a convicted terrorist, who has now been linked with 50 murders.

For the moment this is has as much credence as a conspiracy theory. I doubt even Dessie Ellis knows how many people the bombs he made killed (never mind if they were belligerents or civilians).

Conmaicne Mara

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I doubt even Dessie Ellis knows how many people the bombs he made killed

Why wouldn't he? It is not as if they went of unnoticed.

Red About Town

dvpower wrote: »

He may we'll have been in a 'movement' but that's a far cry from being a terrorist. Just like any SF member during the troubles shouldn't be lumped in with the IRA (for example, no one would say that every SF member supported the Warrington child killings).

Dessie Ellis is a convicted terrorist, who has now been linked with 50 murders.

Anyone trying to equate that with Gilmore is really only trying to deflect.

I would never suggest that he was a terrorist. He was in a party with a terrorist wing though.

(Provisional) Sinn Fein members may not have supported Warrington but I would think they supported the bombing of Canary Wharf, Manchester etc.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

Some of the comments on this thread are getting way too personal. Play the ball, not the man, and please keep the debate civil.

Also, the ad hominem attacks are getting tiresome - cut it out.

Hannibal

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Excellent post up there by storker.

There's a few issues here. One is that Sinn Fein are asking us to leave the past behind, but at the same time putting convicted bomb makers and gun runners up for election. How's that square? Why not remove the people with a terrorist past from the party, or at the very least have them retire from public roles?

Any of these people that have emerged from a war and followed a political path have invaluable experience of the situation in the north and given the situation is far from resolved there is still a need for these people around. Don't be fooled by a peace process when there is loyalist mobs staging viscious protests about the removal of a flag, loyalist paramilitary groups yet to decommission weapons and of course dissident republicans still on the scene. We're still in the early stages of post conflict and there is still secterian issues at hand.

The people of Dublin North West elected Dessie Ellis to Dáil Éireann so why should he resign over an unproven allegation? Would anybody trust this British "forensic evidence" linking Ellis to 50 murders.
I guarantee most of the people in Finglas where Deputy Ellis is from and Ballymun/Glasnevin are well aware that he was formerly in the IRA before they voted for him and I've no doubt he will be elected again in the next election.

Fine Gael can point fingers all they want at SF over links to the IRA which for the record has been non-existent since 2005 all they want but look at how FG idolise someone like Michael Collins who carried out and ordered the execution of RIC men and other British occupying forces in their own beds on front of their families. FG also have a history of supporting fascism in the form of the German Nazi's and General Franco in Spain.

Also there's 3 or 4 senior members of the Labour Party that come to mind when people mention criminality including bank robberys, certain involvements in North Korea but lets not make allegations that can't be proven and the the same should apply to other parties making allegations about Sinn Féin's past history.

tipptom

Dotsey wrote: »

Any of these people that have emerged from a war and followed a political path have invaluable experience of the situation in the north and given the situation is far from resolved there is still a need for these people around. Don't be fooled by a peace process when there is loyalist mobs staging viscious protests about the removal of a flag, loyalist paramilitary groups yet to decommission weapons and of course dissident republicans still on the scene. We're still in the early stages of post conflict and there is still secterian issues at hand.

The people of Dublin North West elected Dessie Ellis to Dáil Éireann so why should he resign over an unproven allegation? Would anybody trust this British "forensic evidence" linking Ellis to 50 murders.
I guarantee most of the people in Finglas where Deputy Ellis is from and Ballymun/Glasnevin are well aware that he was formerly in the IRA before they voted for him and I've no doubt he will be elected again in the next election.

Fine Gael can point fingers all they want at SF over links to the IRA which for the record has been non-existent since 2005 all they want but look at how FG idolise someone like Michael Collins who carried out and ordered the execution of RIC men and other British occupying forces in their own beds on front of their families. FG also have a history of supporting fascism in the form of the German Nazi's and General Franco in Spain.

Also there's 3 or 4 senior members of the Labour Party that come to mind when people mention criminality including bank robberys, certain involvements in North Korea but lets not make allegations that can't be proven and the the same should apply to other parties making allegations about Sinn Féin's past history.

Sure dont they still love to call themselves The Blueshirts

flutered

the two things that puzzles me are, if british intelligence claimed that ellis was involved in 50 murders, how come that they could not convict him, after all the british establishment have a rather dodgy past with regard to convictions, also how come irish people are glad to convict ellis on evidence that says it suggests that ellis is guilty, not that he is guilty here are the extradition papers cane we have him please, there was no hue and cry when dollar garlands extraition was required by the u.s.

EURATS

flutered wrote: »

the two things that puzzles me are, if british intelligence claimed that ellis was involved in 50 murders, how come that they could not convict him, after all the british establishment have a rather dodgy past with regard to convictions, also how come irish people are glad to convict ellis on evidence that says it suggests that ellis is guilty, not that he is guilty here are the extradition papers cane we have him please, there was no hue and cry when dollar garlands extraition was required by the u.s.

Is all a convenient smokescreen for the powers that be..to deflect attention away from their sh1te performance, the extortion of the populations money, the firesale of the states assets and to conceal the fact that millions of the states coffers is going to be forked out ferrying around and wining and dining the very big wigs in Europe that demand the Irish taxpayer repay banking debt...or ELSE!!!! (NO MONEY IN THE ATM's etc etc etc)

Britain's intelligence services have a terrible history with regard to fabrications of the truth..and with the disappearance of the truth altogether. This is not to say this man Dessie Ellis is innocent of these accusations but it really is interesting to see how the government parties accept this intelligence document as fact without any merit in a court of law. I see he was jailed on explosives charges in the past but this doesn't convict him on the allegations in this report.

I take it we have now completely changed our legal system to guilty till proven innocent.

Things are in greater sh1te than I previously thought!!!

oscarBravo

EURATS wrote: »

I take it we have now completely changed our legal system to guilty till proven innocent.

Yes. Yes, we've done that. And Dessie Ellis is in prison right now on foot of this news story.

Jesus, the arm-waving is getting ever more frantic.

Einhard

EURATS wrote: »

Is all a convenient smokescreen for the powers that be..to deflect attention away from their sh1te performance, the extortion of the populations money, the firesale of the states assets and to conceal the fact that millions of the states coffers is going to be forked out ferrying around and wining and dining the very big wigs in Europe that demand the Irish taxpayer repay banking debt...or ELSE!!!! (NO MONEY IN THE ATM's etc etc etc)

Britain's intelligence services have a terrible history with regard to fabrications of the truth..and with the disappearance of the truth altogether. This is not to say this man Dessie Ellis is innocent of these accusations but it really is interesting to see how the government parties accept this intelligence document as fact without any merit in a court of law. I see he was jailed on explosives charges in the past but this doesn't convict him on the allegations in this report.

I take it we have now completely changed our legal system to guilty till proven innocent.

Things are in greater sh1te than I previously thought!!!

So you think that the annual release of British files fro 30 years ago is part of a plot by the Irish government to deflect attention from their own policies? I think you'll find the Conspiracy Theory forum is that way ==>

EURATS

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes. Yes, we've done that. And Dessie Ellis is in prison right now on foot of this news story.

U would swear the man was alright. Such was ur(and others) desperate attempts to convince people that this meaningless document actually had some relevance in 2012.. or anytime for that matter.
It has no legal basis so therefore is rubbish. It's simply a christmas gift to the media from the British government to sell a few papers over the christmas..and stir a bit of sh1t over here.

None of us had any idea that the IRA was involved in a violent struggle with the British. We were all really climbing trees with the leprechauns and never noticed a thing.

Is funny how desperate politicians lite like flies on sh1te on any bit of rubbish material they can find, when their backs are against the wall and the people are starting to turn against them and see them for what they are!!

EURATS

Einhard wrote: »

So you think that the annual release of British files fro 30 years ago is part of a plot by the Irish government to deflect attention from their own policies? I think you'll find the Conspiracy Theory forum is that way ==>

Don't get too excited now. Plenty of cold water to cool u down.
They(British gov) release what suits them. And as I said already..this document is not a legal document and therefore has no legal basis. It's a smear campaign and nothing short of it.

I have said enough in my previous post. I'm not going to go round and round in circles like u guys do... trying to beat it into people's heads like a 1960's schoolteacher.

Thanks for ur time!!

Paddy De Plasterer

was Dessie Ellis just a boy scout ? If he was really in the RA he would have had to step up to the plate and get his hands dirty. If not he would be nutted.

dickwod1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

There's a few issues here. One is that Sinn Fein are asking us to leave the past behind, but at the same time putting convicted bomb makers and gun runners up for election. How's that square? Why not remove the people with a terrorist past from the party, or at the very least have them retire from public roles?

So do you think Nelson Mandela should not have went into politics upon his release from prison?

Einhard

EURATS wrote: »

Don't get too excited now. Plenty of cold water to cool u down.

Thanks, I needed that...

They(British gov) release what suits them.

That's absolute nonsense. The documents are released year in, year out, are a major source of information for historians, and are not some plot by the Brits to damage SF. Why the hell would Cameron want to target Dessie Ellis of all people? If he wanted to smear someone, it would the Labour party not some random Shinner in Dublin. Seriously, try harder with your conspiracy theories.

And as I said already..this document is not a legal document and therefore has
no legal basis.

Oh I agree. Absolutely. I don't know if Ellis was involved in 50 murders or not. As an admitted bomb maker, it's possible he was. Then again, it's possible he wasn't. It's simply a note passed on by the embassy in Washington, nothing more and nothing less. Of course, other parties are making it into a bigger deal than it is, but that's what all politicians do! If the Brits released something that protrayed Michael Martin in a certain way, then all the parties bar FF would be up in arms. It's par for the course in politics. Didn't ML McDonald recently refer to James Reilly as corrupt in the Dail? She had no conclusive evidence, but she was doing her job as a politician, just as the rest are doing now with regard to SF.

It's a smear campaign and nothing short of it.

It's politicians doing what politicians do. Surely you don't believe that David Cameron orchestrated this whole thing to smear Dessie Ellis?? Or that Thatcher did in 1982 so Dessie Ellis would have a bit of trouble 30 years later?

dickwod1

Einhard wrote: »

Quote: They(British gov) release what suits them.

That's absolute nonsense. The documents are released year in, year out, are a major source of information for historians

But they dont release everything they only release what suits them and black out or dont even bother declassifing things they dont want you to know.

Einhard

dickwod1 wrote: »

But they dont release everything they only release what suits them and black out or dont even bother declassifing things they dont want you to know.

That's fair enough, but it's still fact that they release a huge amount of information every year, and that the info on Dessie Ellis is simply part of that, not some huge plot by David Cameron to smear a random SF TD.

Chips Lovell

dickwod1 wrote: »

So do you think Nelson Mandela should not have went into politics upon his release from prison?

Dessie Ellis most certainly isn't Nelson Mandela.

dickwod1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Dessie Ellis most certainly isn't Nelson Mandela.

I never said he was although Nelson Mandela coordinated sabotage campaigns against military and government targets, making plans for a possible guerrilla war if the sabotage failed to end apartheid. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad and arranged for paramilitary training of the group he would use bombs to blast the symbolic places of apartheid like pass offices, native magistrates courts, post offices and the government offices

I was responding to your quote where you said "Why not remove the people with a terrorist past from the party, or at the very least have them retire from public roles?"

Chips Lovell

I'm well aware of what Mandela did alright. But are you actually claiming that the fight against Apartheid in South Africa was comparable to the IRA campaign?

touts

The only surprising thing is that people are surprised when a party that spent years murdering, bombing and robbing its way to power has murderers bombers and robbers in its ranks.

Tip of the iceberg.

dickwod1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'm well aware of what Mandela did alright. But are you actually claiming that the fight against Apartheid in South Africa was comparable to the IRA campaign?

Well your going slightly off topic I was making a valid point about your quote as previously advised but I'll reply anyway,

Yes I think that when 26 unarmed civil-rights protesters and bystanders get shot and 14 die (murdered) by soldiers of the British Army during a peaceful civil rights march to get the same voting rights and employment opportunities as their protestant counterparts is comparable to apartheid South Africa.

Chuck Stone

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

But are you actually claiming that the fight against Apartheid in South Africa was comparable to the IRA campaign?

Institutional discrimination top trumps is it?

Interesting game.

Chips Lovell

I'm speechless to be honest.

EURATS

dickwod1 wrote: »

Well your going slightly off topic I was making a valid point about your quote as previously advised but I'll reply anyway,

Yes I think that when 26 unarmed civil-rights protesters and bystanders get shot and 14 die (murdered) by soldiers of the British Army during a peaceful civil rights march to get the same voting rights and employment opportunities as their protestant counterparts is comparable to apartheid South Africa.

Also the treatment of a lot of the Irish in Britain(long before, during.. and even after the troubles)...

..NO BLACKS...NO DOGS..NO IRISH!!!!