What recession?

Boskowski

I don't understand why people keep bringing negative equity into it?

Unless you bought for speculative reasons or youre splitting up with the wife negative equity means nothing. You're still on the same payment plan you agreed to and you're still living in the same house.

djpbarry

Godge wrote: »

The equivalent figure for the UK is 50%. Ireland is well above the average for the EU in terms of pay tv subscribers. Yet Irish people expect pay television as part of their standard of living. It is an adjustment in that expectation that is needed.

I would also guess that the typical Irish household has more extensive cable packages than their UK counterparts. I don't know too many people here who are prepared to fork out for Sky Sports, for example, but it seemed to be relatively common in Ireland.

Duiske

flutered wrote: »

i am assuming that the greatest percentage of sky dishes are in council and corporation dewellings, they will not have to pay the household charge.

That is unlikely to be the case as the property tax will also be be levied against council/corporation housing stock. The local authorities will have to recoup that money, and whats being considered at the moment is a charge to the tenant of between €150 and €200 per property. It will probably mean a rent increase of around €3.50 per week.

H3llR4iser

I actually tend to agree with the substance of the OP; I take it as a "Irish people are not begging on the streets en-masse as most Irish media, and many posters on Boards, seem to suggest".

Perhaps the fact is that on average, over the years Irish people got used to a lifestyle that relied heavily on credit and overspending. People would often burn hundreds of euros on a night's drink, change cars like they change clothes and buy poorly built 2-bedroom apartments for 400k. Now this is not possible anymore and they're struggling to adapt; On one side, consumers often mistake luxury goods for necessities (e.g. Pay TV, alcoholic beverages, any car that's not just a runaround), on the other retailers and service providers still apply prices that would be out of the market in most of Europe. All of this, along with the slight increase in taxation gives people a worse feeling than it actually should be.

The problem is in the mentality; Believe it or not, Ireland still has some of the highest salaries and lowest taxes amongst the industrialized countries, not to mention one of the most generous social welfare systems (not healthcare, but that's off topic). Most people still have spending power and afford goods and services that are considered luxuries everywhere else (except perhaps the US).

flutered

djpbarry wrote: »

So the definition of rock bottom in 21st century Ireland is not being able to watch Man Utd live.

there is a hell of a lot more on it than watching man u live.

bk

Godge wrote: »

82% of households in Ireland have pay television. The equivalent figure for the UK is 50%. Ireland is well above the average for the EU in terms of pay tv subscribers. Yet Irish people expect pay television as part of their standard of living. It is an adjustment in that expectation that is needed.

The difference in pay TV between the UK and Ireland is because the Irish government was it's typical greedy self and shafted us.

In the UK you have freeview, which allows you to receive 30 TV channels via an aerial for free, including almost all the BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 channels including their variants (+1, e4, Film 4, etc.), you can even opt to subscribe to Sky Sports on it and all for a very minimal cost of an aerial and €40 set top box (assuming your TV doesn't already have it built in as most models have had for many years).

And all of this has been available for many years, thus acting as very strong competition to Sky and Virgin (cable company), keeping their sub numbers low and their prices competitive.

In Ireland, due to the greed of the Irish government, the equivalent digital service was only launched last year and with only 6 crappy Irish channels, no BBC, etc. Thus most people subscribe to Sky and UPC to get a wider variety of UK channels and Sky/UPC charge much higher price then in the UK due to the lack of competition.

FYI You can get most of the UK channels for "free" in Ireland too, but it is a lot more expensive to set up (needing more expensive satellite dishs and satellite STB's) and is quiet techy to do it right.

djpbarry

bk wrote: »

The difference in pay TV between the UK and Ireland is because the Irish government was it's typical greedy self and shafted us.

Might have something to do with the fact that the UK is far larger than Ireland?

bk

djpbarry wrote: »

Might have something to do with the fact that the UK is far larger than Ireland?

No, you obviously don't know the story.

Despite everyone in the industry telling them there was no demand for pay tv over digital terrestrial, they decided to go this route and put it out to tender. Three consortium applied for it (included UPC, RTE, Eircom, etc.), then when the contract was awarded, each consortium in turn turned it down saying there was no market for it.

This entire process delayed the launch by years and everyone knew this was going to happen.

The government were clueless and greedy.

djpbarry

bk wrote: »

No, you obviously don't know the story.

No, I don't really know the ins and outs. But, it's not all that relevant to the discussion at hand.

Andy!!

ulyssescohen wrote: »

The recession is a myth. I went to Liffey valley a while ago, and not only was there a queue to get into the car park - there was a queue to get out. It was choc-a-block. I recall a similar situation in Kildare Village a year ago. In fact, it is very difficult to get parking in Kildare Village after 2pm

There is no recession in this domestic economy. And I don't care what stats you provide - the car park barometer is accurate.

And I welcome the property tax - those who can afford subscriptions to Sky can well afford it. Well done Mr Noonan. Middle Ireland has lots more to give.

Never heard of window shopping then I take it. Or cheap(ish) eats, cinemas, etc...

Pharaoh1

bk wrote: »

The difference in pay TV between the UK and Ireland is because the Irish government was it's typical greedy self and shafted us.

In the UK you have freeview, which allows you to receive 30 TV channels via an aerial for free, including almost all the BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 channels including their variants (+1, e4, Film 4, etc.), you can even opt to subscribe to Sky Sports on it and all for a very minimal cost of an aerial and €40 set top box (assuming your TV doesn't already have it built in as most models have had for many years).

And all of this has been available for many years, thus acting as very strong competition to Sky and Virgin (cable company), keeping their sub numbers low and their prices competitive.

In Ireland, due to the greed of the Irish government, the equivalent digital service was only launched last year and with only 6 crappy Irish channels, no BBC, etc. Thus most people subscribe to Sky and UPC to get a wider variety of UK channels and Sky/UPC charge much higher price then in the UK due to the lack of competition.

FYI You can get most of the UK channels for "free" in Ireland too, but it is a lot more expensive to set up (needing more expensive satellite dishs and satellite STB's) and is quiet techy to do it right.

I think we need to introduce some facts here. It is not expensive to get all these free channels.

http://www.tvtrade.ie/satellite-receivers/combined-digital-receivers.html

Even if you are not a DIY expert it is very cheap. I got a guy to do the whole lot for me for €300.

FREETV

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

I think we need to introduce some facts here. It is not expensive to get all these free channels.

http://www.tvtrade.ie/satellite-receivers/combined-digital-receivers.html

Even if you are not a DIY expert it is very cheap. I got a guy to do the whole lot for me for €300.

A friend or someone in the community with some DIY skills quite possibly could have installed the equipment for free for you if you bought the equipment beforehand? Plenty of helpful people all over the country still who will help others get in free television to their dwellings to help them save money. Anyway you are happy and your satellite tv is sorted already so that is the main thing.

Bullseye1

Godge wrote: »

you are missing the point.

82% of households in Ireland have pay television. The equivalent figure for the UK is 50%. Ireland is well above the average for the EU in terms of pay tv subscribers. Yet Irish people expect pay television as part of their standard of living. It is an adjustment in that expectation that is needed.

If we had decent native tv channels maybe there would be less tv subscriptions. But regardless of this have you considered that some people have subscriptions because they can no longer afford to go out socialising and €50 a month is a hell of alot cheaper than going out in this country. Noonan using sky subscriptions as justification for the property tax is quite frankly ridiculous and insulting to the people paying his wages and pension.

djpbarry

Bullseye1 wrote: »

...€50 a month is a hell of alot cheaper than going out in this country.

These arguments are getting ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure €50 will pay for at least one visit to a pub.

FREETV

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If we had decent native tv channels maybe there would be less tv subscriptions. But regardless of this have you considered that some people have subscriptions because they can no longer afford to go out socialising and €50 a month is a hell of alot cheaper than going out in this country. Noonan using sky subscriptions as justification for the property tax is quite frankly ridiculous and insulting to the people paying his wages and pension.

I agree, he is clueless and there are far better free channels available in the Middle East in comparison to here. What those men in suits are paid is outlandish.

Bullseye1

djpbarry wrote: »

These arguments are getting ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure €50 will pay for at least one visit to a pub.

These counter arguments are even worse. Some people don't like the ambiance of public houses and prefer to socialise at home.

Having some luxury in ones life isn't against the law. The government needs to get its own house in order. The Irish people are not slaves for its government.

djpbarry

Bullseye1 wrote: »

These counter arguments are even worse. Some people don't like the ambiance of public houses and prefer to socialise at home.

Eh, you're the one who said people weren't going out because it was cheaper to stay home?

Bullseye1

Do you doubt it's cheaper to stay at home? Have you ever went out with your partner and had change out of €50 in Ireland? Even if you went out and had change its one night. A €50 sky subscription over 30 days is €1.66 a night. Next Noonan will be saying if you can afford a night out a week you can afford the property tax. The guy is so far removed from reality it's frightening.

djpbarry

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Have you ever went out with your partner and had change out of €50 in Ireland?

Of course? You're telling me €50 won't pay for a visit to the pub?

Bullseye1

Of course it will if you sip on a couple of drinks for the night. You need money for the taxi and babysitter too.

FREETV

Another issue is water rates and having to pay for it above a certain level when it is started in areas not already paying for water. Repairing and replacing the water pipes is what is needed. I for one will not pay for fluoridated, chlorinated water, I don't think most people know the damage they are doing to themselves every time they take a bath, a shower, drink tap water. Boiling the water concentrates the fluoride further. Don't take my word for it, research it. The water in my folks area which they are paying for is undrinkable for the last twenty years, the smell and taste of the chemicals is unreal. All this present government seems to do is take take take from the public and give nothing back in services and yet they are trying to justify more and more taxes on the already overburdened public. The volcano is active and about to erupt shortly. We simply don't have anymore extra income to hand out. :rolleyes:

FREETV

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Do you doubt it's cheaper to stay at home? Have you ever went out with your partner and had change out of €50 in Ireland? Even if you went out and had change its one night. A €50 sky subscription over 30 days is €1.66 a night. Next Noonan will be saying if you can afford a night out a week you can afford the property tax. The guy is so far removed from reality it's frightening.

Does he represent the elite I wonder? :rolleyes: He gets a huge salary, expenses and pension, why would he care? Easy money.

cosbloodymick

That Noonan fella seems to think that he has a right to take any money off people because they have it. Message to Noonan, "its not your money you have not worked for it". The taxpayers of this country have had enough. The top rate of tax here kicks in at less than the average industrial wage ffs. And we are constantly been told we don't pay enough tax or as much as other countries but the stats say otherwise. The government mantra seems to be " You can afford a second pair of shoes you don't really need them so I can take that money and toss it into the carcass of Anglo". Give me a break!!

djpbarry

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Of course it will if you sip on a couple of drinks for the night. You need money for the taxi and babysitter too.

So we're agreed then.

Of course, if the couple in question were really interested in saving money, why stop at not going out any more? Why not get rid of the cable subscription in favour of something cheaper? For example, Screenclick's gold package is only €20 per month.

The "it's the only entertainment they have left" argument really doesn't stack up.

djpbarry

FREETV wrote: »

...I don't think most people know the damage they are doing to themselves every time they take a bath, a shower, drink tap water.

Virtually none?

cosbloodymick wrote: »

And we are constantly been told we don't pay enough tax or as much as other countries but the stats say otherwise.

Which stats are these?

beaner88

cosbloodymick wrote: »

That Noonan fella seems to think that he has a right to take any money off people because they have it. Message to Noonan, "its not your money you have not worked for it". The taxpayers of this country have had enough. The top rate of tax here kicks in at less than the average industrial wage ffs. And we are constantly been told we don't pay enough tax or as much as other countries but the stats say otherwise. The government mantra seems to be " You can afford a second pair of shoes you don't really need them so I can take that money and toss it into the carcass of Anglo". Give me a break!!

So you don't believe in any taxation then? Do you believe in government expenditure? If you don't then you don't believe in governments full stop.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2012/exchfinaldec.pdf

If you do then you should also understand that spending has to be balanced with taxes.

FREETV

djpbarry wrote: »

So we're agreed then.

Of course, if the couple in question were really interested in saving money, why stop at not going out any more? Why not get rid of the cable subscription in favour of something cheaper? For example, Screenclick's gold package is only €20 per month.

The "it's the only entertainment they have left" argument really doesn't stack up.

Aren't people already paying more than enough taxes? Paying a property tax for owning or paying a mortgage while already having stamp duty etc is below the belt. I don't go out anymore unless it is to a friends house or another family members to save money. People cannot afford to go to their GP anymore as it is so expensive these days. There are more and more homeless people now and suicide rates.

beaner88

FREETV wrote: »

Aren't people already paying more than enough taxes? Paying a property tax for owning or paying a mortgage while already paying stamp duty etc is below the belt. I don't go out anymore unless it is to a friends house or another family members to save money. People cannot afford to go to their GP anymore as it is so expensive these days. There are more and more homeless people now and suicide rates.

Do you believe paying motor tax after paying huge vrt sums on your car in 2006 is below the belt? Should paying a large amount of tax make you immune from all future tax changes?

Bullseye1

djpbarry wrote: »

So we're agreed then.

Of course, if the couple in question were really interested in saving money, why stop at not going out any more? Why not get rid of the cable subscription in favour of something cheaper? For example, Screenclick's gold package is only €20 per month.

The "it's the only entertainment they have left" argument really doesn't stack up.

We are not agreed. You want people to be slaves to their government. The fact that you are backing Noonan on the issue makes be me think we will never agree on the matter. I note your in London and I'm sure your standard of living and choices are superior to what is offered here.

djpbarry

FREETV wrote: »

Aren't people already paying more than enough taxes?

Clearly they are not, no. If they were, there wouldn't be a huge deficit.

Bullseye1

beaner88 wrote: »

Do you believe paying motor tax after paying huge vrt sums on your car in 2006 is below the belt? Should paying a large amount of tax make you immune from all future tax changes?

What level of tax would be enough to satisfy you? 60-70%?

djpbarry

Bullseye1 wrote: »

We are not agreed. You want people to be slaves to their government.

How about less hyperbole and more answering the question?

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The fact that you are backing Noonan on the issue...

Who said I was backing Noonan?

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I note your in London and I'm sure your standard of living and choices are superior to what is offered here.

How do you know? You have absolutely no idea what I do or how much I earn.

Bullseye1

djpbarry wrote: »

Clearly they are not, no. If they were, there wouldn't be a huge deficit.

There is a huge deficit because the public sector bloated significantly during the celtic tiger and wages matched those in the private sector trough benchmarking and through Croke Park. People are paying enough taxes. The government is just spending too much and there are too many people unemployed. The current administration has neglicted the domestic economy and thrown its eggs into the importers basket. 13,600 have been created in exports but 9000 jobs have been lost. Their job creation strategy has been an mitigated disaster.

beaner88

Bullseye1 wrote: »

What level of tax would be enough to satisfy you? 60-70%?

I just want the deficit closed. I would like to see public sector lay offs, huge welfare cuts and more taxation for lower earners. The vast majority of people in Ireland pay hardly any tax.

FREETV

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There is a huge deficit because the public sector bloated significantly during the celtic tiger and wages matched those in the private sector trough benchmarking and through Croke Park. People are paying enough taxes. The government is just spending too much and there are too many people unemployed. The current administration has neglicted the domestic economy and thrown its eggs into the importers basket. 13,600 have been created in exports but 9000 jobs have been lost. Their job creation strategy has been an mitigated disaster.

As stated earlier they are out of touch with reality and haven't the proper qualifications or knowledge to get the job done. They are a bunch of amateurs in the political world blaming the last government in order to save face. A new administration is needed already, they have outstayed their welcome and never lived up to all of their spin doctor hype. :rolleyes:

Bullseye1

djpbarry wrote: »

How about less hyperbole and more answering the question?
Who said I was backing Noonan?
How do you know? You have absolutely no idea what I do or how much I earn.

€10-20 euro for taxi there and back, €15-20 for babysitter for say 3 hours. That leaves €10 for drinks. So yeah I'd rather stay at home thanks.

What hyperbole? You have stated we are not paying enough tax, but have not based it solely on our deficit. That is only one part of the equation. I would suggest that people working in Ireland are paying enough taxes both directly and indirectly. I counter your more taxes with get people back to work and reduce spending further.

With regards to London I'm sure you have a better choice with regard freeview and TV channels. I've no interest in your lifestyle or quality of life but you seem concerned with people's lifestyle and quality of life here.

Bullseye1

beaner88 wrote: »

I just want the deficit closed. I would like to see public sector lay offs, huge welfare cuts and more taxation for lower earners. The vast majority of people in Ireland pay hardly any tax.

I agree with most of this but the tax issue would be a non issue if we had 200,000 out of the 300,000 unemployed back in work. Expecting a smaller workforce to pay for government expenditure which are at similar levels to that when employment was almost 100% is unrealistic.

beaner88

I agree. We need to get people in the workforce and slashing welfare rates, minimum wages and internship schemes could help in this regard. The government would need to go after the big costs for people to make this work and number one would be accomodation costs. They are not going to do this as this would sink them from all the whinging owners out there and it would hurt the banks made up balance sheets.

FREETV

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I agree with most of this but the tax issue would be a non issue if we had 200,000 out of the 300,000 unemployed back in work. Expecting a smaller workforce to pay for government expenditure which are at similar levels to that when employment was almost 100% is unrealistic.

I think that the government attitude is that people are lucky to have a job and as a result should keep paying whatever new taxes and tax rates they invent as you are working and therefore must take the burden and keep coughing up. Slavery is too kind of a word to describe it. :rolleyes:

cosbloodymick

djpbarry wrote: »

Clearly they are not, no. If they were, there wouldn't be a huge deficit.

Its not down to undertaxation that there is a deficit - its due to waste. Throughout the Celtic tiger there were 100,000 people/welfare spongers signing on for the dole when companies were screaming for staff. This demographic has never worked/contributed.
Then you have the carreer criminal with 35 previous conviction getting free legal aid every time he/she is in court. Even when convicted the taxpayer has to pay for his/her appeal.
In the last 6 budgets the Government has taken 28.5 billion out of the economy at a time when the budget deficit was 21 billion at its max. More than enough to balance the books except they chose to try and bail out failed banks to the tune of 70 billion.
If you're happy to keep dipping into your pockets to fund this largesse fire ahead, but I have had enough and I am not willing to volunteer any more without a protest.

FREETV

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Its not down to undertaxation that there is a deficit - its due to waste. Throughout the Celtic tiger there were 100,000 people/welfare spongers signing on for the dole when companies were screaming for staff. This demographic has never worked/contributed.
Then you have the carreer criminal with 35 previous conviction getting free legal aid every time he/she is in court. Even when convicted the taxpayer has to pay for his/her appeal.
In the last 6 budgets the Government has taken 28.5 billion out of the economy at a time when the budget deficit was 21 billion at its max. More than enough to balance the books except they chose to try and bail out failed banks to the tune of 70 billion.
If you're happy to keep dipping into your pockets to fund this largesse fire ahead, but I have had enough and I am not willing to volunteer any more without a protest.

Good on you cosbloodymick, at least you have the courage to tell the truth and it is time to make a protest against abject economic slavery.

Icepick

beaner88 wrote: »

more taxation for lower earners. The vast majority of people in Ireland pay hardly any tax.

There are taxes then just income tax.

beaner88

Icepick wrote: »

There are taxes then just income tax.

Not really. Income taxes and VAT. I don't buy the analysis that says welfare receipients pay tax because of the vat on their spend.

A Primal Nut

saintsaltynuts wrote: »

500,000 Unemployed.There's the recession.

But 1.8m are employed yet all we hear is how everybody is struggling, people can't afford to put bread on the table, etc. It is definitely exaggerated by the media, and of course the Irish people themselves love to complain and moan so the idea of a recession suits them down to the ground. I know many well off people who are non stop complaining about how everyone is struggling. They need to look at the rest of the world and get some perspective.

darkhorse

A Primal Nut wrote: »

But 1.8m are employed yet all we hear is how everybody is struggling, people can't afford to put bread on the table, etc. It is definitely exaggerated by the media, and of course the Irish people themselves love to complain and moan so the idea of a recession suits them down to the ground.

Hey, Nut. How about we watch the clip and see can we spot the millionaires in the queue. By the way, there is a funny man at 1:26(he actually gets paid by the 1.8m that you mention, on a nice little earner at that)saying something about how he would like to see people spending more money. I think someone should remind him that his government have diminished most people's spending power.:mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BWltDPjlteA

djpbarry

Bullseye1 wrote: »

People are paying enough taxes.

Define "enough".

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The government is just spending too much...

...because that's what people want. The concept of "cuts" is not exactly a popular one right now. So if people are not prepared to accept spending cuts, then the only alternative is tax increases.

Bullseye1 wrote: »

You have stated we are not paying enough tax...

I think the tax base in Ireland is too narrow, yes.

Bullseye1 wrote: »

With regards to London I'm sure you have a better choice with regard freeview and TV channels.

And as we all know, standard of living increases with number of available TV channels.

djpbarry

FREETV wrote: »

A new administration is needed...

Consisting of?

FREETV

djpbarry wrote: »

Consisting of?

Anybody other than FF, FG and Labour. All the same these three. Corrupt as hell. Immature and cannot even behave in the Oireachtas. All lies and half truths from them. They do not speak on behalf of the majority of people. They may as well unite under one party name.

Bullseye1

How about you tell us how much in every euro we should pay? I know I'm paying enough taxes. How about you?

Another alternative which you have either failed to recognise or maybe you do not accept is to get some of those 300,000 people back working. That is the real alternative.

I agree the tax base is too narrow. With those 300,000, even 200,000 back at work and that tax base got a whole lot wider.

Smirk all you like about TV your the one agreeing with Noonan and is stupid sky comments. Maybe you also agree with how he conducts himself while representing this country at economic events...cough....Greece...cough.

djpbarry wrote: »

Define "enough".
...because that's what people want. The concept of "cuts" is not exactly a popular one right now. So if people are not prepared to accept spending cuts, then the only alternative is tax increases.
I think the tax base in Ireland is too narrow, yes.
And as we all know, standard of living increases with number of available TV channels.

darkhorse

beaner88 wrote: »

Not really. Income taxes and VAT. I don't buy the analysis that says welfare receipients pay tax because of the vat on their spend.

Does that mean that welfare receipients dont have to pay car tax or vrt or tax on fuel or carbon tax, they only pay tax on their spend, such as vat, is that right?