Black Monday - NFL Coaching Changes

Realt Dearg Sec

davyjose wrote: »

Big difference between yelling at your coach over a decision, and blanking your coach in such a diva-ish manner. Don't think anyone would have questioned Cutler if he had got heated with him.

Well they questioned him when he got heated with J'Marcus Webb, and there was no semantic issue with whether he was heated at the time or not. In fact, they did a lot more than question him, they acted like he was at fault. Even though, by any rational analysis, he was right to be pissed off with the crappy protection he was getting. Doubt Rodgers would have gotten the same attention for doing that.

None of which is to say Cutler is above criticism. He just seems to get criticism that other QBs in similar situations don't get (dodgy O-lines, for example)

davyjose

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Well they questioned him when he got heated with J'Marcus Webb, and there was no semantic issue with whether he was heated at the time or not. In fact, they did a lot more than question him, they acted like he was at fault. Even though, by any rational analysis, he was right to be pissed off with the crappy protection he was getting. Doubt Rodgers would have gotten the same attention for doing that.

None of which is to say Cutler is above criticism. He just seems to get criticism that other QBs in similar situations don't get (dodgy O-lines, for example)

There's a difference between yelling at a coach in the heat of the moment, and yelling at a teammate, walking off the field, and then "bumping" him for what was all-round sloppy play. Rodgers takes plenty of hits -- have yet to see him verbally attack another teammate over it tbh.

Oat23

davyjose wrote: »

Big difference between yelling at your coach over a decision, and blanking your coach in such a diva-ish manner. Don't think anyone would have questioned Cutler if he had got heated with him.

You don't honestly believe that, do you? They'd have an absolute field day with it if it was Cutler!

Syferus wrote: »

It's a bit easier to get away with being fired up when you're the best QB in the entire league. If Culter wants to shut people up there's a very obvious way to do it.

Play better.

Not the point I was trying to make, clearly. The point was that the media over-analyse everything Cutler does, whereas with others these nothing things get what they deserve, no attention.

davyjose wrote: »

There's a difference between yelling at a coach in the heat of the moment, and yelling at a teammate, walking off the field, and then "bumping" him for what was all-round sloppy play. Rodgers takes plenty of hits -- have yet to see him verbally attack another teammate over it tbh.

Rodgers has done it plenty of times with the line,as every other QB in the league does when their line isn't playing well, it just doesn't get the media coverage like it does with Cutler. This season Rodgers "verbally attacked" one of his receivers. I forget if it was for a false start or not blocking and I'm not arsed looking for the .gif of it, but it was posted on the Bears forum when it happened.

LuckyLloyd

Think Reid should have taken a year out, but understand him wanting to jump straight back into work rather than mulling over recent family tragedy. If he gets three years he could turn them around. Who gets that long in the NFL these days though? The Chiefs are a long way off it, and will need an overhaul of personnel to play the way Reid has done with the Eagles.

Wish him the best. He's about the best the Chiefs could have gotten I think.

Oatesy23

Oatesy23 wrote: »

Like it says - Imagine if this was Jay Cutler shouting at Lovie Smith for throwing a challenge flag when he shouldn't. It would be blown way out of proportion, every analyst on every channel would be talking about it and everyone would come to the conclusion that Cutler is a fool.

Is the moral of the story not that Rodgers and Cutler engage in the same behaviour all the time, but more like when you are the best QB around, you get cut a little slack when you lose it, whereas when you're not top tier and you give journos the middle finger* well tough.

Edit - might be a very archaic way of putting it!

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Think Reid should have taken a year out, but understand him wanting to jump straight back into work rather than mulling over recent family tragedy. If he gets three years he could turn them around. Who gets that long in the NFL these days though? The Chiefs are a long way off it, and will need an overhaul of personnel to play the way Reid has done with the Eagles.

Wish him the best. He's about the best the Chiefs could have gotten I think.

I don't think the are that far off at all. They just need a QB and possibly to improve the OL. They have a good defense and a real good running back/game.

Jolly Red Giant

Oatesy23 wrote: »

You don't honestly believe that, do you? They'd have an absolute field day with it if it was Cutler!

They would - and precisely because Cutler has been a thorough pain in the rear end since he was drafted. He would get a hounding because he'd deserve it - it would be the norm for him to behave in such a fashion - the guy is a whinging cry-baby who is completely up his own rear end when he is on the field. He has bags of talent and potential with few footballing smarts to go with it - and he p*sses off his team mates and coaches.

With Cutler under centre the Bears will not win the SB, no matter who they have around him - he will choke and then blame everyone else for the problem.

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't think the are that far off at all. They just need a QB and possibly to improve the OL. They have a good defense and a real good running back/game.

I agree - the Chiefs aren't as bad as their 2-14 record. The problem is - where do they find a QB who can do the job - there is none in the draft and the only decent QB in free agency is Flacco (and Baltimore are unlikely to let him leave). A move for Flynn could work but it will cost KC if they want him.

Son Of A Vidic

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Think Reid should have taken a year out, but understand him wanting to jump straight back into work rather than mulling over recent family tragedy.

Surprised myself that Reid was proactively seeking a coaching job. Like you, I also thought a year out might have been good for him. I also thought he would have stayed in the NFC, rather than moving to the AFC. But I suppose in a way it probably is like turning over a new leaf for him.

Realt Dearg Sec

Deleted User wrote: »

when you're not top tier and you give journos the middle finger* well tough.

I don't know what you're talking about.

kmart6

Scott Pioli gone

ABajaninCork

Confirmed.

Possibly paving the way for Andy Reid who's already started offering jobs to his intended team?

ABajaninCork

It's not looking good for Ron Rivera either.

It's a shame if he goes, as he should be given another year I think.

Jolly Red Giant

Reid has been hired by KC -

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/53423/chiefs-go-big-with-andy-reid

GoldFour4

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It's not looking good for Ron Rivera either.

It's a shame if he goes, as he should be given another year I think.

He'll be okay I think, would have been fired by now tbh !

Jolly Red Giant

malistheman wrote: »

He'll be okay I think, would have been fired by now tbh !

Decision won't be made until after Carolina hire a new GM.

GoldFour4

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Decision won't be made until after Carolina hire a new GM.

That's only a suggestion by the author of that article and it makes no sense to leave it that long when all the top candidates will more then likely be hired by then.

matthew8

The idea is a big name might want to put their own guy in, but I don't think they'll get a big name with their catastrophic cap situation.

Jolly Red Giant

In reality there are very few 'top' candidates around. The options usually are (1) a failed former HC - (2) an untried coordinator (3) an untried college coach. Hiring a HC is pretty much a lottery - there are few (throughout the years) who could repeat performances with more than one team. Occasionally you get the right guy in the right place at the right time - example recently would be John Fox at Denver - longer term - Belichick at the Pats. Far more important in my opinion is the supporting cast around the HC and the ability to pick productive players in the draft. If picking a HC was easy and a matter of picking the 'top' candidates then there would be significantly more than 7 HCs who were more than 4 years in the job (and 4 years is really the minimum for a HC to build their own team).

Syferus

It's very much the point, Oatsey. Cutler is at best an average QB with a big arm and potential. Rodgers is the league MVP and a Superbowl champion and on course to be one of the all-time greats at the position.

Just like Tom Brady and his co-ordinatator the best get treated differently for a very real reason - they've proven themselves. That pretty much ruins the premise of that glib GIF because Culter in no way is deserving of the leeway Rodgers or Brady gets.

Does he get a bad rap? Sure, but he certainly doesn't help his case on the field or at times off it.

davyjose

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

In reality there are very few 'top' candidates around. The options usually are (1) a failed former HC - (2) an untried coordinator (3) an untried college coach. Hiring a HC is pretty much a lottery - there are few (throughout the years) who could repeat performances with more than one team. Occasionally you get the right guy in the right place at the right time - example recently would be John Fox at Denver - longer term - Belichick at the Pats. Far more important in my opinion is the supporting cast around the HC and the ability to pick productive players in the draft. If picking a HC was easy and a matter of picking the 'top' candidates then there would be significantly more than 7 HCs who were more than 4 years in the job (and 4 years is really the minimum for a HC to build their own team).

John fox had a worse record in his last 2 seasons at Carolina, than Reid had at Philly. Belichick pretty much forced the move to New England. My point is, there are never any other real candidates aside from three types you've pointed out above.

Sometimes mistakes are made -- for instance, Tony Dungy was the architect of the TB Super Bowl team; the Colts got lucky with him. But the argument could be made that he was a "failed HC". He was, after all, fired by TB.

There's a lot of talent out there. For a start, Bruce Arians, took the Colts 9-3 under his tenure. Hardly untried. Chip Kelly has created the most dynamic Offense in football. He's a college coach, but that doesnt make him untried.
Pete Carroll was in a similar situation -- a dead cert to succeed at the next level, and he's proven he can.

HigginsJ

Why aren't teams trying to push and get Nick Saban back to the NFL? If he wins Monday night there is very little left for him to achieve at Bama

davyjose

HigginsJ wrote: »

Why aren't teams trying to push and get Nick Saban back to the NFL? If he wins Monday night there is very little left for him to achieve at Bama

Peter King was on the Dan Patrick show today and claimed all sources close to Saban say he has zero interest in going to the NFL

Justin10

Not remember what sabin did in Miami? Supposedly he turned down nfl teams this year.

Chip Kelly to browns all but done.

Son Of A Vidic

Looking at Sabans record, it's pretty obvious why he's happy to stay with Alabama.

(College HC record ) 153–55–1

(NFL HC with Miami) 15–17

davyjose

Rochey18 wrote: »

Not remember what sabin did in Miami? Supposedly he turned down nfl teams this year.

Chip Kelly to browns all but done.

Source? I'm surprised at that. Would have thought the Browns would be bottom of anyones list. Particularly a guy who (as one reporter said) is essentially interviewing teams.

Onecoolcookie

davyjose wrote: »

Source? I'm surprised at that. Would have thought the Browns would be bottom of anyones list. Particularly a guy who (as one reporter said) is essentially interviewing teams.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000122151/article/chip-kelly-very-close-to-deal-with-cleveland-browns

It's being reported in plenty of places must say I'm very surprised aswell thought the Eagles would have been a better platform for his style of offense. I'm a huge fan of Chip so obviously I hope he does well in the NFL but struggling to see what he'll do with a poor Browns team. They've got a good D and decent O line but surely he'll have to get rid of Weeden and Richardson didn't have the best of rookie seasons either.

Onecoolcookie

Lovie Smith to the Bills is another move I must admit I'd love to see. The Bills have plenty of talented players on defence but they just haven't gelled and I think Lovie could turn them into a formidable unit. Replace Fitzpatrick and with Spiller and Jackson forming a strong run game I'd like the look of them next season.

UnitedIrishman

Would rather discuss it other than in this thread but only seen it now, anyways:

Heard it all before. Cutler isn't a sulky cry-baby. The media show you what they want, and they want to portray Cutler as a sulky cry-baby. Everything he does is blown out of proportion.

What gets thrown back then is this radio show that Cutler does that he's a great guy on and that he's so reasoned. It's all well and good being a nice and good guy on a show that you are king of and in control of compared to what you do in the heat of the moment and when you're reacting on true emotions and actually showing who you are as a character.

Granted, I've only seen Rodgers in 40 odd games as a Packer fan. Very very rarely does he go off on one. And when he does, as in the gif, it's generally for good reason. Cutler, comes off the field, doesn't take on board what those above him tell him and generally comes across as a guy that is so up his own hole it's unreal.

Rodgers has done it plenty of times with the line,as every other QB in the league does when their line isn't playing well, it just doesn't get the media coverage like it does with Cutler.

Rodgers has been sacked more than anyone this year and never once has he reacted beyond having a look at whoever is responsible. He's not gone to bump into an offensive lineman or shout at him because he knows well that the minute he does something as dumb as that, respect will go out the window. And that tends to be enough for the player to react - on the field.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy for the Bears to keep Cutler as long as they want. They won't go anywhere as long as he's there.

UnitedIrishman

Edit: Double post.

davyjose

Onecoolcookie wrote: »

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000122151/article/chip-kelly-very-close-to-deal-with-cleveland-browns

It's being reported in plenty of places must say I'm very surprised aswell thought the Eagles would have been a better platform for his style of offense. I'm a huge fan of Chip so obviously I hope he does well in the NFL but struggling to see what he'll do with a poor Browns team. They've got a good D and decent O line but surely he'll have to get rid of Weeden and Richardson didn't have the best of rookie seasons either.

He'll keep Richardson. Likely he'll get the very best out of him. Not sure about Weedon -- he obviously likes mobile guys, but Weedon's an intelligent player and if he can keep an up-tempo no huddle going, he'll fit in fine.

Jolly Red Giant

davyjose wrote: »

John fox had a worse record in his last 2 seasons at Carolina, than Reid had at Philly. Belichick pretty much forced the move to New England. My point is, there are never any other real candidates aside from three types you've pointed out above.

Which is precisely the point I was making - hiring a HC is pretty much a lottery - no one knows how it will pan out. Fox did have a worse record than Reid (although there were mitigating circumstances) - however, Fox was the right person, in the right place at the right time for Denver - a wise experienced head to steady the ship after the disaster that was McDaniels (the hot new kid on the block that would blow everyone away with his coaching talent). Same with Belichick.

davyjose wrote: »

Sometimes mistakes are made -- for instance, Tony Dungy was the architect of the TB Super Bowl team; the Colts got lucky with him. But the argument could be made that he was a "failed HC". He was, after all, fired by TB.

Unless a team wins a SB then the HC hire is nearly always a 'mistake' - after all that is what is expected from everyone of them.

davyjose wrote: »

There's a lot of talent out there. For a start, Bruce Arians, took the Colts 9-3 under his tenure. Hardly untried. Chip Kelly has created the most dynamic Offense in football. He's a college coach, but that doesnt make him untried.
Pete Carroll was in a similar situation -- a dead cert to succeed at the next level, and he's proven he can.

There is always a lot of talent out there - there is not one single coach any better than any other. You take Belichick out of New England and he could (and probably would) be useless. An awful lot of factors, situations, people and events have to fall into place for a coach to be successful.

The only certainty for every coach is that at some point along the line they will be sacked (unless they resign/retire before it happens). Take Mike Shanahan - useless at the Raiders - but every Broncos fan knew once he took over in Denver, the Broncos would win the SB. When he won two in a row Bowlen told him he had a job for life - it took Bowlen nearly ten years to realise that Shanahan couldn't repeat the process without Elway because Shanahan needed an Elway for the way he ran the offence. Shanahan spent years trying to find the new Elway and couldn't do it. Eventually Shanahan was fired with the Broncos stuck in mediocrity. Shanahan could possibly repeat his feat of winning the SB in Washington because for the first time he has a QB capable of doing what Elway did in RGIII. Only time will tell - however, eventually, Shanahan will be sacked by the Redskins just like he was with the Broncos, whether they win the SB or not.

Masked Man

Be hard not to be optimistic if your a Browns fan and they land Kelly. Things seem to be turning for them. Apparently BB told Kelly that Cleveland would be a better fit for him than the Eagles. Must still have a soft spot for the Browns.

Justin10

He will get time in Cleveland where as he may not get it with the Eagles.

GoldFour4

Schefter just confirmed that Ron Rivera will be returning to Carolina.

Justin10

Looks like Gamble is going to be the Jets GM.

Great signing for them, he was number 1 candidate in my eyes.
Dont even think the Chargers interviewed him

Syferus

Onecoolcookie wrote: »

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000122151/article/chip-kelly-very-close-to-deal-with-cleveland-browns

It's being reported in plenty of places must say I'm very surprised aswell thought the Eagles would have been a better platform for his style of offense. I'm a huge fan of Chip so obviously I hope he does well in the NFL but struggling to see what he'll do with a poor Browns team. They've got a good D and decent O line but surely he'll have to get rid of Weeden and Richardson didn't have the best of rookie seasons either.

Richardson managed almost 1000 yards rushing and over 1300 total yards playing broken ribs since week two and broke Jim Brown's rookie rushing TD record. It's very hard to say the kid did any less than good.

Any coach would be very happy with a back as talented as Richardson.

Hard to say what Kelly would do with Weeden, he showed glimpses this season but his arrival may mean a revival of Colt McCoy's fortunes in Cleveland, I still think with a good supporting cast he would be the better QB and obviously he's way younger than Weeden and fits more naturally into Kelly's established type of offense.

Realt Dearg Sec

Syferus wrote: »

Richardson managed almost 1000 yards rushing and over 1300 total yards playing broken ribs since week two and broke Jim Brown's rookie rushing TD record. It's very hard to say the kid did any less than good.

Any coach would be very happy with a back as talented as Richardson.

Completely agree, dunno where all this stuff about Richardson is coming from. Thought he was great.

matthew8

The knock on Richardson is his 3.6 YPC. That's simply not very good and won't get them going down the field for a guy who's meant to be a playmaker. That said, RBs have been having trouble in Cleveland for years, and some of their OL are struggling mightily.

Justin10

I dunno why Im not a scouting guru or anything but I though Richardson looked slow playing with Alabama.

I watched him about 4 times this year one whole game against the Chargers and again I think he looks slow.

Onecoolcookie

Syferus wrote: »

Richardson managed almost 1000 yards rushing and over 1300 total yards playing broken ribs since week two and broke Jim Brown's rookie rushing TD record. It's very hard to say the kid did any less than good.

Any coach would be very happy with a back as talented as Richardson.

Hard to say what Kelly would do with Weeden, he showed glimpses this season but his arrival may mean a revival of Colt McCoy's fortunes in Cleveland, I still think with a good supporting cast he would be the better QB and obviously he's way younger than Weeden and fits more naturally into Kelly's established type of offense.

Yeah don't get me wrong he's still a very good RB but purely based on the hype surrounding him coming out of college I don't think he's lived up to it. His yards per carry record isn't great but in fairness he has been plagued by injury so hopefully after resting up we'll see a better player next season. Morris and Martin on the other hand have had fantastic rookie seasons and looked very exciting which I just haven't seen in Richardson.

HigginsJ

The guy has been playing with injuries all season. Give him a chance next year. It's not like he has been terrible or anything.

As for slow he ran the 40 in 4.45, that's more than quick enough

Realt Dearg Sec

Any of ye have him in fantasy? I did. Happy with the pick.

Syferus, feel bad about takin the piss out of you during the FF, all I meant was the division set up keeps it interesting even for **** players like me.

Justin10

HigginsJ wrote: »

As for slow he ran the 40 in 4.45, that's more than quick enough

There is a massive difference running the 40 and running in pads with a ball in your hand, trying to find a hole.

HigginsJ

Rochey18 wrote: »

There is a massive difference running the 40 and running in pads with a ball in your hand, trying to find a hole.

So your questioning his vision not his speed? I read an article on his vision following his debut vs the Eagles where they used the 22 cam to show where he made a few poor decisions so that is def something for him to work on.

I'm biased here as I was a huge fan of TRich going into the draft. I just think considering that he had no pre-season and had injuries during the year that he should be cut some slack

Justin10

Im questioning both, I think he is slow to react and slow when he hits the hole, I noticed a lot of times when he broke free in college players caught him.

I think he is a good player but If im a Browns fan I be much happier with picking him outside top 10.

Of course if your a fan of him then their no problems, just something I had a problem with him was his speed.

Next year if healthy will tell much more about him.

Silver-Tiger

Finish your dinner and sign the contract Kelly!

As for Trich. I watched every snap and considering what we've heard now, I couldn't be happier.

Players were saying he was wincing with every deep breath, such was the pain of the 2 broken ribs he sustained. Reading that if they get Kelly he will get some great chances to light it up. Give him all of next year including his pre season before you say he doesn't merit where he was picked.

Syferus

After making a total mess of the RG3 trade when they had all the needed cards to get it done (and that's something that only looks even more disgusting now) the Browns needed a tent-pole player, a guy to put on banners and someone the fan-bases could look forward to seeing. You don't get that by drafting a lineman or defensive tackle, indeed that sort of by-the-numbers logic is what's led the Browns into becoming probably the most boring team in the league right now. Boring play and the NFL should never go together if you want to run a good business or a good team.

Did they over spend for Richardson? Not in terms of pure talent or in terms of what the franchise needed, a spark. Sure, RB value is variable, as evidenced by Alfred Morris this year, but sometimes I think people on the outside obsess over 'value'. Especially now that teams don't need to mortgage the house on the contracts of top picks it made perfect sense in the circumstances the franchise found themselves. The Browns got a very good running back and what position he was drafted in will fade into meaningless if he continues to develop and perform.

Silver-Tiger

This is tough going. I was convinced going asleep that we had lost Kelly to the eagles(still kind of am) and had settled for this Marrone chap. he's now signed with buffalo.

HigginsJ

Ryan Nassib to the Bills now?

Justin10

Seems Browns pulled out of Chip Kelly deal, dont feel he is 100% committed to becoming NFL head coach.

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