So, what REAL reasons for the union or not?

martinedwards

All righty.....

Mods, feel free to delete if this gets too hot, or move it to a political area, but I'd like to ask a sensible question, and here it'll be seen by folks with a more Northern viewpoint.

personally, I'm a moderate, and British Passport holder. My family originate in the South and moved here in the 50s.

I have family on both sides of the border, and good friends on both sides of the Prod/RC divide too.

with the current population shifts, and the fact that Northern Ireland now has very little difference in Prod/RC numbers, we live in "interesting" times......

so, what are the advantages of staying in the union, and the advantages of dropping that and going to a united Ireland?

lets pretend that we could have a one off vote that would be binding for 200 years and that the loosing side would say "OK fair enough, lets make the most of it" (as if!!)

arguments like "my granny says that a soldier kicked her gate in 1972" or "the Brits stole our land in 1106" or "they'll make us all Catholic" are obviously all bunkum and so wise up, don't bother.

as a parent, with a job that pays my way, not a millionaire or on the dole, I reckon the education and health systems are better in the UK.

I'm not a financial whizz, but it looks to me that it's SLIGHTLY better to be aligned with the UK than the Euro in the current state of things.

I personally don't care which government I pay my tax to, but so far it's been the UK. can anyone persuade me that it would be better to be paying the Dail using sensible reasons?

Deedsie

martinedwards wrote: »

All righty.....

Mods, feel free to delete if this gets too hot, or move it to a political area, but I'd like to ask a sensible question, and here it'll be seen by folks with a more Northern viewpoint.

personally, I'm a moderate, and British Passport holder. My family originate in the South and moved here in the 50s.

I have family on both sides of the border, and good friends on both sides of the Prod/RC divide too.

with the current population shifts, and the fact that Northern Ireland now has very little difference in Prod/RC numbers, we live in "interesting" times......

so, what are the advantages of staying in the union, and the advantages of dropping that and going to a united Ireland?

lets pretend that we could have a one off vote that would be binding for 200 years and that the loosing side would say "OK fair enough, lets make the most of it" (as if!!)

arguments like "my granny says that a soldier kicked her gate in 1972" or "the Brits stole our land in 1106" or "they'll make us all Catholic" are obviously all bunkum and so wise up, don't bother.

as a parent, with a job that pays my way, not a millionaire or on the dole, I reckon the education and health systems are better in the UK.

I'm not a financial whizz, but it looks to me that it's SLIGHTLY better to be aligned with the UK than the Euro in the current state of things.

I personally don't care which government I pay my tax to, but so far it's been the UK. can anyone persuade me that it would be better to be paying the Dail using sensible reasons?

You would have more trouble convincing people in the south voting for it at the moment! I'd love to see a United Ireland but there is to much bitterness. Look at the flag cráic at the moment, or the dissidents murdering people for just trying to live their lives! I am happier letting the British government pay to run Northern Ireland. It will nice to see it become greener over the next few decades, hopefully the Irish living in Northern Ireland will be given a vote in Irish presidential elections or something like that.

Hopefully as the two tribes numbers even out, the sectarianism will be reduced and NI will start to work out its societal problems.

muffler

Moved from North forum

martinedwards

Ok, we've been moved.

fair enough, it's likely to get political!!

so, if you are in Cork or Tralee, or some other place nowhere near the north, why do you think that we should or should not become a united Ireland?

can you afford us?

can we afford you?

etc

goz83

There should be a vote every 10 years up north to decide whether the north is viewed as part of the UK, or whether it falls to the control of the Dail. Then, when we have a united Ireland, the voting should stop

Us catholics tend to breed like rabbits, so it's just a matter of time really.

Anyway. On a more serious note; I haven't really formed an opinion on this. I would like to see a united Ireland, but what matters is what's best for the folks up north.

Conmaicne Mara

I am nowhere near the north and I'd prefer things stay as they are for the time being. For me there seem to be large societal problems north of the border, the flag riots being the latest incarnation of what's still under the surface. I do believe there will be a unification of Ireland in the future. But, until people in the north find a way of dealing with those tensions honestly and effectively, or however one wants to describe it, my vote would be to keep things as they are.

muffler

goz83 wrote: »

but what matters is what's best for the folks up north.

.....and the folks down south

Manach

Given the present incumbents in the Dail, the State's financial quagmire and the majority of our legislation originates from Europe anyway, perhaps a united Ireland in the context of a United Kingdom. I would be an interesting item to have on the ballot box in the South ...

SoulandForm

What became Northern Ireland at the time of partition was way ahead of what was to become the Free State and than the Republic of Ireland- now it seems the situation is reversed. I dont think the Union has been good at all to the "Celtic Fringe" in general.

The problem in Northern Ireland is that unlike in the South there was no De Valera to come along after the violence of the early 20s and late teens of the last century and give legitimacy in the eyes of the over whelming majority to the state, which in turn led to the old wounds bursting open again in the late 60s. The GFA was supposed to deliver this, but it came from outside- from London, Washington and to a lesser extent Dublin- and to a large extent has failed to take away the essential lawlessness on both sides (the murder of the prison officer by Republicans, the death threats against Alliance members by Loyalists and their attempted murder of a PSNI officer are just the tip of the ice berg- the only ones actually "Loyal" to the law are the Alliance party).

I dont believe for one moment that Westminster has any desire to give up its ownership of Northern Ireland. What I think we will see is a reversal of the situation with the UK state backing the oppression of Protestants/Ulster Scots/Scotch Irish by the Provisional movement. The whole thing is tragic because what is Northern Ireland has the potential to be the greatest place on these islands, it really does, but instead its wastes all its psychic energies.

pablomakaveli

I dont think there is any benefit of a UI to NI or the ROI. NI benefits more being funded by the UK while the Republic couldnt afford to run NI and it would only make it even more difficult to recover from the current economic crisis.

Also given that both have evolved seperately since 1922 it would be harder to integrate both into a unified state.

tipptom

I think westminster would be delighted to hand over NI if they could.
By the looks of the last census it would nearly need a 75% nationlist majority before a referendum vote would be a majority yes to a united Ireland

barney 20v

I grew up in a republican sympathetic area of Wexford , I do not want a united Ireland .
The north is too fcuked up!
I wish for the north to become its own state relying on itself not on us or the UK.
It has a basket economy,not saying we don't BTW.

As a father of two young girls I'd prefer us in this republic to concentrate on running 26 correctly before we ever even contemplate running 32.
The north has always been about money And control, nothing will change.

SoulandForm

You are probably right about the health system but how long it will remain that way with the Tories in charge is open to debate. I dont think you are right about the education system though. You are completely correct about the Euro though.

gurramok

barney 20v wrote: »

I wish for the north to become its own state relying on itself not on us or the UK.

It can't fund itself, that's the problem. Ask any Unionist if they will embrace massive tax hikes for NI to pay for itself and their enthusiastic brand of Unionism gets diluted as it will hit them massively in the pocket. So at present its down to Westminster to subsidise the union and Cameron is slowly implementing public sector cutbacks in NI.

All this about the Euro financial problems will blow over and its being tackled, the UK is in severe debt too, that's conveniently forgotten.

lottpaul

My family background at the time of partition in 1921 would have been of 2 extremes - one half had poppies and red, white and blue ribbons wrapped around pictures of the King and Queen, the other side were resolutely anti Treaty and ended up with one of their young men being "executed" by the Free State troops in 1922

I grew up listening to every side of every possible argument and reason, logical and illogical, for and against the Union, a United Ireland etc. I hated the mention of politics for that reason!

Now I can take a more detatched view and I don't think we are going to see a peaceful United Ireland in the near future. Look at the shenanigans that erupted over the flag issue in Belfast. Look at the persisting CIRA efforts to bomb/kill some police/prison/army personnel.
It saddens me hugely for a number of reasons. I would love to have seen a republic with a bigger protestant (deliberate small "p" ) input into public life, with less RC clerical control etc. I think it would still have benefits. The narrow protestant control and deliberate exclusion of catholics in NI was a disgrace to democracy and contrasted greatly with the far more accomodating attitude of most agencies and departments to the Protestant minority in the Republic.

But - what makes a country? So far most of the replies deal with economics and the practicalities of both parts joining together, in whatever form. Surely if a community of people have the will and desire to unite a way will and can be found?
In ways we already have a very united island. You can sit into your car in any part of Ireland and drive to any other part, with no borders, barriers etc. What a change from 20 years ago when we had watch towers and blown-up bridges, land mines and checkpoints.
But lets face facts too. The average Belfast person on the Falls Road has much more in common economically and in terms of daily living with their neighbours in the Shankill and very very little in common with e.g. a Limerick person in Patrickswell.
But again... they all watch Coronation Street and Eastenders, love/hate Man Utd in equal measure. They will know the lives of each X-factor, Come dancing competitor etc. I think each would be surprised at how much they share.
Fast forward 30, 40, 50 years. A nominally Catholic majority in NI? - the edges of difference will have been blurred even more by popular culture. Who knows what will happen. Maybe our concept of the nation state will have changed and we will all be living in a Swiss style cantonised Ireland/Europe. (Often suggested as a good solution for NI in the past)

In the end I think Parnell summed it up well - No man has the right to say to his country, "Thus far shalt thou go and no further", and we have never attempted to fix the "ne plus ultra" to the progress of Ireland’s nationhood, and we never shall

and

It is undoubtedly true that until the prejudices of the Protestant and Unionist minority are conciliated …..
Ireland can never enjoy perfect freedom, Ireland can never be united.

SoulandForm

gurramok wrote: »

It can't fund itself, that's the problem. Ask any Unionist if they will embrace massive tax hikes for NI to pay for itself and their enthusiastic brand of Unionism gets diluted as it will hit them massively in the pocket. So at present its down to Westminster to subsidise the union and Cameron is slowly implementing public sector cutbacks in NI.

All this about the Euro financial problems will blow over and its being tackled, the UK is in severe debt too, that's conveniently forgotten.

Taiwan built itself up from nothing through state schemes, the problem is that the Westminster funding of the civil service in Northern Ireland doesnt actually produce anything, it just shuffles paper, giving no possibility of being able to stand eventually on its own. The money "subsidizing" Northern Ireland is channeled so it has no long term positive effect and just makes the country reliant on Westminster.

Make no mistake though that while people such as the OP might well switch to a United Ireland position with good economic arguments there are whole layers of Unionism who's very being is identified in resisting such- I doubt for instance that the OP was out throwing petrol bombs over the flag for instance. Than there are people on the other side who resent the presence of the Scotch Irish on this island full stop.

Offy

I moved from the Republic of Ireland to NI just over a year ago. It was a real eye opener for me. I lived in Manchester from '94 to '99. The first thing I noticed was that people from NI are nothing like the English. I previously assumed that the protestants loved the English and wanted to be just like them. Much to my surprise I learnt from protestants I work with that they actually resent and dislike the English. They want to be British NOT English. For an Irishman, ie me, this is confusing. I still dont understand it.
As to education, my daughter was at best an average student in the Republic. In NI she is an A student. I honestly do not think the British education system is as strong as the Irish education system. I would see the healthcare system as been slightly worse than the Irish healthcare system.
I would love to see a 32 county Ireland. I believe I will in my lifetime. Since moving here I have changed my view of protestants, I now see two types of protestants. I didnt see these two types while living in Manchester. The first type is very much like your typical Irish man or woman. They want to live in peace, to raise their families and get on with everyone in their community. The second type is scum that hate us Irish and are not afraid to let us know they hate us. Unfortunately there is nothing we can legally do to redress this. The collusion, as highlighted in the Pat Finucane case, is very real Im afraid. My experience teaches me that bringing a complaint to the PSNI is a complete waste of time. I see this as the reason the IRA exist and prosper.
The Republic has similar problems. How many GAA members, bankers, politicians or other such 'celebrity types' have gotten away with serious crimes including murder, theft, corruption, etc. simply because of their status in society? In NI you dont have to be a celebrity, if your protestant and you commit a crime against a catholic you are placed in the same category. This issue of PSNI people, AGS people, judges, etc. letting people commit crimes without punishment lies at the heart of the problems in NI. In NI its amplified to the extent that organisations exist that are happy to murder anyone they see as the 'enemy'.
In my honest opinion this is NI's hurdle. This is the issue NI must address to eliminate the IRA and support for the IRA. Only the British government can do this. History has taught us that to date they are not willing to do so.
Economically NI is a complete mess. English people want to off-load it, Irish people dont want to know about it and theres no way in hell NI could stand on its own two feet. This doesnt have to be the case. With proper management NI could support itself and here lies NI's biggest challenge. How many politicians in NI are 'ex terrorists'? NI needs politicians that are natural on the whole religious issue. The Alliance party seem to be NI's best hope IMHO.
As a catholic (christened not by choice and not a believer in the Roman Catholic Church I might add) I see no advantage to people like me from NI remaining in the Union. I am a second class citizen here but I was also a second class citizen in the Republic. The only difference is I wasnt in receipt of any hatred in the Republic. Equally I see no advantage to joining the republic. If the republic wasnt continuously governed by FF and FG then I do believe it would be in my best interests to live in a 32 county republic. I hope that neither FF or FG will get into government in the next election but I suspect that the Irish will do their usual stupid thing of saying 'ah sure the devil you know is better than the devil you dont' and elect one of them again.
As to the Euro, I believe the UK is in trouble in the long run for not using the Euro. Its not going to go away and GB isnt the power it used to be. The Euro will stabilise and as it does I predict the pound will continually decrease in value. As this happens I see the UK pulling funding from NI. In the long run I believe the English will put more and more pressure on the British government to withdraw support from NI. If Scotland do actually break away from GB then the NI protestants will have to think long and hard about 'Britishness'. Most of them come from Scotland originally and their loyalty will surly be in question???
We certainly do live in interesting times.

martinedwards

a very interesting and well put post.

my only real dispute is the "most come from Scotland" thing.....

maybe 300 years ago, but there isn't a massive influx of Scots nowadays....

there ARE closer links to Scotland than to England.

many Northerners are defined by the Celtic/Rangers thing.

and yes, most Ulster Prods hate the English (but then even the Northern English hate the southerners!!) and there is a DEFINITE 3rd class citizen thing going on.

for instance my Passport says British SUBJECT not Citizen......

BBC weather forcast mentions Northen Ireland maybe 1 buleten in 4......

even the Olympics was Team GB and not team UK.......

(United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland y'know!!)

Very interesting folks, keep it up!!

COYW

Offy wrote: »

They want to be British NOT English. For an Irishman, ie me, this is confusing. I still dont understand it.

Christ on a bike. How could you actually think such a thing? There is a massive difference between being British and English. The Welsh and Scots are British but you couldn't get any more anti-english. You think the petty snipping you find here in relation to the English is bad, you should see what it is like amongst Glasgow protestants.

I Know a Manchester United fan who traveled up to Ibrox when they played there and he said he never felt so much anti-English hatred as he did that night.

tipptom

Having lived in England for a lot of years,your average English man has nothing in common with your average Welsh or Scottish man and a Newcastle man and his accent is like a foreigner to your average Londoner but seeing a NI man marching down the street with a Union jack and a bowler hat just confuses the sh*t out of them.

I honestly think if the politicians in NI stopped using the working class protestants and Catholics as their battering rams and worked at getting them jobs instead,people could move on with their lives, and being what I would consider a republican in the loosest sense of the word, I would think it would be a massive gesture from SF if they just turned around after all skangers are cleared from the streets and not be seen to have got their way, that they passed some sort of resolution to fly the union jack more often and show that flags do not define a country,it would be a small gesture that things are moving on passed silly people.

martinedwards

its all about power.

the nationalist politicians rub their hands in glee at getting Derry city council to drop the London part of the city's name and the flag thing PURELY as a "we annoyed the prods" thing.

there is no benefit to anyone in doing this.

if you get the politicians together to work for jobs etc then folks might start to think for themselves and vote for other parties and so the politicians with their one policy parties will be lost at sea.

take away sectarian hatred from Northern Ireland and you take away the reason for pretty much all the parties other than Alliance and the Greens to exist.

you really think the idiots rioting about flags this last month are so in love with HM the Queen that they all sleep in Beefeater uniform Jammies and ask to pay extra tax to support the union?

no, me either!!

Terrontress

It has been reported that NI has the best primary education in Europe, particularly excelling in maths.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20678866

Offy

Terrontress wrote: »

It has been reported that NI has the best primary education in Europe, particularly excelling in maths.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20678866

Its also reported that Dessie Ellis is linked to 50 murders but no proof is offered. Something been reported doesnt mean a whole lot. How was the report compiled?

Offy

Terrontress wrote: »

It has been reported that NI has the best primary education in Europe, particularly excelling in maths.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20678866

Heres another report!!!

SoulandForm

martinedwards wrote: »

take away sectarian hatred from Northern Ireland and you take away the reason for pretty much all the parties other than Alliance and the Greens to exist.

you really think the idiots rioting about flags this last month are so in love with HM the Queen that they all sleep in Beefeater uniform Jammies and ask to pay extra tax to support the union?

no, me either!!

The Alliance Party in my experience are a pretty varied bunch but what unites them is a longing for stability and a strong dislike of sectarian theatrics; if you took away sectarian hatred would there be enough to hold them together?

I also think you are failing to see how Loyalism gives a lot of people's lives meaning and therefore trumps economic considerations.

Offy

SoulandForm wrote: »

I also think you are failing to see how Loyalism gives a lot of people's lives meaning and therefore trumps economic considerations.

I would be interested to learn more about this point, could you explain what you mean?

Terrontress

Offy wrote: »

Heres another report!!!

So do you think something goes wrong between primary and secondary?

It's interesting that the author in the second reports discusses a myth, as if NI education is (wrongly) reported to be great.

SoulandForm

Offy wrote: »

I would be interested to learn more about this point, could you explain what you mean?

It means that gives people a fundamental identity, a sense of being something in particular rather than just a clump of atoms floating through space, and resisting a United Ireland/Roman Catholicism/Republicanism/etc (yes I do know that they are all not the same but are the same in the minds of many Loyalists) gives them a sense of purpose in life- these are two deep psychological needs. Im not sympathetic to Loyalist culture, but having grown up around it and having identified myself with it in the past I can see why it remains so strong.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

It means that gives people a fundamental identity, a sense of being something in particular rather than just a clump of atoms floating through space, and resisting a United Ireland/Roman Catholicism/Republicanism/etc (yes I do know that they are all not the same but are the same in the minds of many Loyalists) gives them a sense of purpose in life- these are two deep psychological needs. Im not sympathetic to Loyalist culture, but having grown up around it and having identified myself with it in the past I can see why it remains so strong.

So what your trying to say is that I define myself solely by resisting a united Ireland

Offy

Terrontress wrote: »

So do you think something goes wrong between primary and secondary?

It's interesting that the author in the second reports discusses a myth, as if NI education is (wrongly) reported to be great.

The point I was trying to make is that if one looks one can find conflicting report on just about anything.

Offy

junder wrote: »

So what your trying to say is that I define myself solely by resisting a united Ireland

Sorry but I cant find your original post where you say anything. You seem to have jumped into a discussion making claim that SoulandForm has said something about you. Where do you get this impression from?

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

So what your trying to say is that I define myself solely by resisting a united Ireland

No I didnt say that.

I did say that resisting a united Ireland, etc gives a purpose to the lives of many people.

But yes a lot of the Scotch Irish do define themselves against "Irishness". At the turn of the last century a shocking amount of Protestants in Belfast spoke Irish now a shocking amount find the Happy Christmas in Irish sign outside City Hall offensive. There is a lot in Loyalism/Unionism that is negative and nihilistic.

And I am very well aware that many Loyalist areas live under siege but there is something called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

No I didnt say that.

I did say that resisting a united Ireland, etc gives a purpose to the lives of many people.

But yes a lot of the Scotch Irish do define themselves against "Irishness". At the turn of the last century a shocking amount of Protestants in Belfast spoke Irish now a shocking amount find the Happy Christmas in Irish sign outside City Hall offensive. There is a lot in Loyalism/Unionism that is negative and nihilistic.

And I am very well aware that many Loyalist areas live under siege but there is something called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

There is alot in Northern Ireland that is negative and nihilistic, conflict has a tendency to do that to people, so to single out loyalism is unfair. And yes you are correct, in the past there where many in the unionist community who spoke Irish, many who fought for the 36th ulster divsion and died at the Somme where Irish speakers, but it's become so politicised and intrinsically linked to republicanism now that unionists what no part of it.
I am a loyalist, and proud of it, but I define myself by what i am, not what I am
Not

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

There is alot in Northern Ireland that is negative and nihilistic, conflict has a tendency to do that to people, so to single out loyalism is unfair. And yes you are correct, in the past there where many in the unionist community who spoke Irish, many who fought for the 36th ulster divsion and died at the Somme where Irish speakers, but it's become so politicised and intrinsically linked to republicanism now that unionists what no part of it.
I am a loyalist, and proud of it, but I define myself by what i am, not what I am
Not

See this my problem- its so easy to blame the Provisionals for everything. The fact is that it was Unionism that politicized the language which is extremely similar to Scottish Gaelic which is why it died out among the Scotch Irish. Unionists let it be politicized by the Republicans.

What exactly does Loyalism mean to you? (It means different things to different people- much like Republicanism does, in some ways Im a Republican and in some ways Im not).

martinedwards

The Irish language is a funny one...

I read somewhere that it was the Prods who kept it alive and wanted to try and keep it while the Catholic community said sod it.....

I love the story of Ken Maginnis speaking at the QUB unionist society in the 80s. some SF activist asked a question in Gaelic (QUB has a bilingual policy) expecting the loyalist not to understand. KM then spent the next 20 mins correcting his grammar as he is fluent.

there are many people in Northern Ireland with very firm opinions that are about 1mm deep.

tell hard line unionists that King Billy wouldn't go ahead with his attack without the Popes blessing, and that he had a LOAD of Catholic mercenaries on his force, and that the fenian uprising was signifigantly Methodist and Presbyterian and they get all grumpy for some reason!!

I LOVE a bit of Irish history!!

there are a load of republicans who have no idea that SF is a Marxist party....

Sadly there are a LOT of people in the North (on both sides) who are more "ANTI that lot" then "PRO anything in particular"

lottpaul

martinedwards wrote: »

Sadly there are a LOT of people in the North (on both sides) who are more "ANTI that lot" then "PRO anything in particular"

Equally sadly, I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding much intercommunity relations on this island, past and present, political and religious. E.g. ask most Fine Gael supporters why they vote for FG and they'll start by telling you of the "evils" of Fianna Fáil etc.
In the Republic the religious element has decreased enormously as fewer and fewer people attend church of any sort. Obviously in Northern Ireland where religion and politics and so closely intertwined that hasn't changed yet.

Gosub

I've heard many shocking things about the North. However nothing compares to the shock when I heard Ian Paisley's (snr) answer when he was asked how he defines his nationality. I can't quote directly at the moment, but it went something like this: I'm first an Irishman, second an Ulsterman and third British.

I remember when Nationalists and Unionistst politicians couldn't even be in the same room as with each other. Now they laugh and joke in public. (I often wonder why they are laughing. Could it be the cushy jobs they now have?)

The thing is that most of the headline issues are petty and superficial. I'm not saying that they are not a serious barrier to true peace and integration, they are. But things change and who knows how they will change in the next 10 or 20 years.

I would truly love to see a united Ireland in my lifetime. I haven't given up hope. I'm not even considering the financial aspect. It's just that she's my mother country and I love her deeply. I was born in County Down and could have either or both passports. I chose to have an Irish one. Not because it's cheaper, it's not. It's just that I consider myself first an Irishman, second an Irishman and third an Irishman.

For me Ireland has been, and always will be, comprised of four green fields containing 32 counties. The politicians can kiss my shiny white ass!

Little_Korean

Deedsie wrote: »

It will nice to see it become greener over the next few decades, hopefully the Irish living in Northern Ireland will be given a vote in Irish presidential elections or something like that.

Presumably then the Unionists would have to get the vote as well?

They'd probably vote in Sean Gallagher just to troll us.

woodoo

NI is so heavily dependent on the state sponsored jobs and cash injections form London that Ireland just couldn't compete. People up there know that of they joined a UI they would be worse off for quite some time. And it would take a lot of effort to make it work. Considering that a lot of unionists don't particularly like us anyway then what is in it for them. Why would they make the effort.

Things may change in the future with prolonged peace and if London decides it wants to configure NI to be self sustaining and pay its own way.

loveboat captain

Im a northerner, originally from the very north coast but now living on the outskirts of Belfast. I was brought up in a staunchly protestant household where my father was an orangeman and my mother loved the royal family. Just thought id give you a brief background of my upbringing before giving my opinion.

Re an All Ireland, i dont think the Irish government want us, in much the same way I dont think the British government want us either. I would love us to have our own, independant Northern Ireland but realise it will never be able to afford this while any form of trouble is still going on. I have a UK passport, not a British one (there is no such thing no matter what the loyalist fraternity would have you believe), but am not against the idea of getting an Irish one. To be honest whichever is cheaper when the renewal date is on the horizon will probably be purchased! I am proud to call myself Northern Irish, because that is what I am

martinedwards wrote: »

Sadly there are a LOT of people in the North (on both sides) who are more "ANTI that lot" then "PRO anything in particular"

And hear is the real problem with our country. At the time of the last elections I was doing something in the kitchen when a leaflet dropped in the front door. I went over, lifted the leaflet, which was the DUP election leaflet, and studied the 4 page leaflet. Not to my surprise I soon realised that all it consisted of was anti SF/SDLP propeganda. No mentioning of what the DUP were going to do for me to ease the financial burdens on me, no mentioning of what they would do for the community, just "SF will do this, SDLP will do that". I went over to the women dropping leaflets in peoples doors, handed it back to her and explained that until she could explains what the DUP would do for me they sould not be getting my vote. Unsurprisingly she couldnt give me an answer. Too many people vote for a religion rather than for the good of themselves

nordydan

Repartition?

Bring Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry (bar east Derry), S Armagh, S Down and Belfast into the Republic?

Thomas_I

SoulandForm wrote: »

What became Northern Ireland at the time of partition was way ahead of what was to become the Free State and than the Republic of Ireland- now it seems the situation is reversed. I dont think the Union has been good at all to the "Celtic Fringe" in general.

Agreed.

SoulandForm wrote: »

The problem in Northern Ireland is that unlike in the South there was no De Valera to come along after the violence of the early 20s and late teens of the last century and give legitimacy in the eyes of the over whelming majority to the state, which in turn led to the old wounds bursting open again in the late 60s. The GFA was supposed to deliver this, but it came from outside- from London, Washington and to a lesser extent Dublin- and to a large extent has failed to take away the essential lawlessness on both sides (the murder of the prison officer by Republicans, the death threats against Alliance members by Loyalists and their attempted murder of a PSNI officer are just the tip of the ice berg- the only ones actually "Loyal" to the law are the Alliance party).

Maybe it´d be worth comparing De Valera with Craig and those who followed him afterwards. One is for sure, they were both Die-hards on their claims and the Irish Free State was the compromise by the British to end the Anglo-Irish war. The civil war that emerged from that was the decision by De Valera and his fellows.

There was no other way to achieve something like the GFA from outside because neither side of the conflict was prepared to give in.

As for the Alliance Party "being the only party loyal to the law" I wouldn´t say so because the other parties in the NI Assembly have also their responsibility towards "being loyal" to the law and to take measures to restore public order in the areas concerned.

SoulandForm wrote: »

I dont believe for one moment that Westminster has any desire to give up its ownership of Northern Ireland. What I think we will see is a reversal of the situation with the UK state backing the oppression of Protestants/Ulster Scots/Scotch Irish by the Provisional movement. The whole thing is tragic because what is Northern Ireland has the potential to be the greatest place on these islands, it really does, but instead its wastes all its psychic energies.

I don´t think so because in the present time, there is no turning back by the British Government to their "policy" of the 1970s and 1980s. Whether NI still has the potential to be "the greatest place on these islands" isn´t for sure because you´re missing that the Industrial era in Europe has gone, or like to say "shifted" to Asia where most companies settled for cheap labour. Personally I see a brighter future for NI only within a united Ireland and nowhere else. Once Westminster can´t afford the financial transfers to NI anymore, they might drop them earlier than you´d expect them to do.

I´m not advocating any sort of Republicanism by this, it´s just the way how I see the political realities.

Thomas_I

junder wrote: »

There is alot in Northern Ireland that is negative and nihilistic, conflict has a tendency to do that to people, so to single out loyalism is unfair. And yes you are correct, in the past there where many in the unionist community who spoke Irish, many who fought for the 36th ulster divsion and died at the Somme where Irish speakers, but it's become so politicised and intrinsically linked to republicanism now that unionists what no part of it.
I am a loyalist, and proud of it, but I define myself by what i am, not what I am
Not

I rather think that this politicised link to republicanism comes from the Ulster Covenant and the perception maintained by your community. I´ve once read that pamphlet and I was astount on which anachronism these people advocate their "policies and way of life". It´s all complete outdated and it provides a picture of the Republic of Ireland with such fearmongering and unsustainable prejudice which can´t stand an assessment to the present time. The only thing from that reading that I would admit is that the decades of De Valera´s ruling gave some reason to maintain that picture, for he was the "best friend of the clergy they ever had in Ireland".

So what is your ethnical definition of yourself then? To be a Loyalist is just a political expression and to be British refers just to the Kingdom of Great Britain it has no ethnical expression. It has just the reference about citizenship or to be a subject to the British crown.

In my view, that´s the real problem with the Unionists, they - aside from the Ulster-Scots - don´t know how to identify their ethnical links. Their "Britishness" is just an artificial substitude for either the lack or rather denial of an ethnical link, or it´s just for the reason to distinct themselves from the Irish.

SoulandForm

Thomas_I wrote: »

The only thing from that reading that I would admit is that the decades of De Valera´s ruling gave some reason to maintain that picture, for he was the "best friend of the clergy they ever had in Ireland". .

Actually De Valera stood up to pressure to actual turn the Free State into a Roman Catholic confessional state which at the time drew praise from both the Protestant and Jewish community, and resisted the RC Hierarchy on things like social housing and Spain. De Valera seems to get a rough time these days from everyone. I actually admire the man if not everything that he did.

Its funny that the RC Hierarchy in Ireland, particularly in the 26 counties, was so right-wing when the RC Hierarchy in England and Scotland was relatively speaking pretty far to the left and aligned to the Labour Party. George Galloway for instance is a practicing RC who is pretty socially conservative. This leads me to think that it wasnt so much the religion of the hierarchy that was the important factor but the fact of their social class and who their families were.

I believe the best solution for everyone whatever their background is direct rule from Dublin.

SoulandForm

Thomas_I wrote: »

As for the Alliance Party "being the only party loyal to the law" I wouldn´t say so because the other parties in the NI Assembly have also their responsibility towards "being loyal" to the law and to take measures to restore public order in the areas concerned.

Look the DUP have never came out and said that their sharing platforms with Loyalist Paramilitaries was wrong. They have never come and said that their importing of guns for the whole Ulster Resistance thing was wrong. A former leader of the UUP on television made some pretty shocking to a normal society statements on the Loyalist paramilitaries on a documentary- than there was their whole behaviour around Drumcree which again they never said was wrong. Sinn Fein still celebrate the Provisionals. The Alliance is only Party unconditionally loyal to the Law as it is written. Northern Ireland remains pretty lawless.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Actually De Valera stood up to pressure to actual turn the Free State into a Roman Catholic confessional state which at the time drew praise from both the Protestant and Jewish community, and resisted the RC Hierarchy on things like social housing and Spain. De Valera seems to get a rough time these days from everyone. I actually admire the man if not everything that he did.

Its funny that the RC Hierarchy in Ireland, particularly in the 26 counties, was so right-wing when the RC Hierarchy in England and Scotland was relatively speaking pretty far to the left and aligned to the Labour Party. George Galloway for instance is a practicing RC who is pretty socially conservative. This leads me to think that it wasnt so much the religion of the hierarchy that was the important factor but the fact of their social class and who their families were.

I believe the best solution for everyone whatever their background is direct rule from Dublin.

"In gods name will you go to the country that your affections lie in" eamon de Valera on the ulster unionists, 1948

Quoted from 'a history of the ulster unonist party, protest, pragmatism and pessimism' page 87

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

"In gods name will you go to the country that your affections lie in" eamon de Valera on the ulster unionists, 1948

Quoted from 'a history of the ulster unonist party, protest, pragmatism and pessimism' page 87

Context. That could easily mean that he is asking Ulster Unionist to go to the rest of Ireland because their affections at heart with their own land, which is Ireland- could it not?

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Context. That could easily mean that he is asking Ulster Unionist to go to the rest of Ireland because their affections at heart with their own land, which is Ireland- could it not?

I think it's fairly clear what he means

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

I think it's fairly clear what he means

To you of course it is.

However I would like to see both original context and the source for the quote (where the writer of the book you wrote got it from).

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

To you of course it is.

However I would like to see both original context and the source for the quote (where the writer of the book you wrote got it from).

If you haven't read the book how can you possibly say that Junder's context isn't the right one?

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you haven't read the book how can you possibly say that Junder's context isn't the right one?

Because I cant.

It could also have been directed against the Ascendancy who maintained an iron grip over Unionism until the rise of Ian Paisley who if did nothing else good broke that rather than ALL Unionists.