Online freelancing - Elance, Odesk etc

Essien

Does anyone have any experience of these type of sites?

I recently signed up to Elance with a view to picking up some odd jobs for an extra bit of cash but so far, it's been an incredibly frustrating experience. The jobs (and the people who post them) are mostly complete bull****...

• "I need an ecommerce site with SEO for under $500"
• "I need a Wordpress site for $100"
• "I need you to complete a very specific ad hoc task but I refuse to offer any information, not even a screenshot or url"

I suppose my issue lies ultimately with the guys who accept these jobs, but what the hell is wrong with these people?


Anyway, is it something I should persevere with or will I always be left pulling my hair out?


Do decent jobs ever appear on these site?


Is there much money to be made or is it just not worth the time?


Are there any other sites for people in my situation that I should check out?

KonFusion

I wouldn't bother with elance if I was you unless you're ok working for less than minimum wage.

On elance you'll mostly be competing for jobs with people from India, Africa, Romania etc and it'll be hard to match their price.

Even if you're offering a greater quality of work, there are some (very few imo) designers/developers on elance who do really great work, but still work for buttons.

I wouldn't waste my time, same goes for freelancer.com

I've no experience with any other hiring sites, but maybe try something like http://www.freelanceireland.ie/ ?

Best of luck.

The Corinthian

From a Western perspective, competing with development houses from India, Pakistan and so on is doomed to failure. However, that doesn't mean that using sites like Elance can't be very profitable.

Remember, if a potential client goes to Elance, they're likely to have limited technical knowledge and more often than not will end up taking up the tender that comes in cheapest or sounds too good to be true - and as we know when it sounds too good to be true it typically is. It's not unusual to end up with overruns, due to misunderstandings, or substandard work as a result of suppliers overselling themselves. Most people who've done business over Elance and similar sites will tell you it's a game of Russian roulette, and if you're not in the business, then naturally your chances of winning are so much smaller.

This has created a gap in the market for a middleman, between the development house in the developing World and the client in the developed World. With this model, you do little or no development yourself - at most code reviews and a few minor tweaks. Your role becomes one of acting as a BA for the client and PM overseeing the development house (they'll have one locally as a point of contact, but you don't want to rely too much on them), as well as verifying / testing deliveries.

Note however, that you don't get your business from sites like Elance - you farm it out. You need to be able to bring in the business yourself, but if you can, then it's a model that can work very well indeed.

Axwell

KonFusion wrote: »

I've no experience with any other hiring sites, but maybe try something like http://www.freelanceireland.ie/ ?

That sites been pretty stagnant the last year or so unfortunately. Not many other sites out there at the minute where you can look for freelance work and get paid a fair price for your work. Its mostly sites like elance where jobs are accepted at ridiculous prices and more than likely the client gets a less than ideal solution but knows no better and possibly ends up paying someone shortly after to do the job properly.

KonFusion

The Corinthian wrote: »

This has created a gap in the market for a middleman...

...Note however, that you don't get your business from sites like Elance - you farm it out. You need to be able to bring in the business yourself, but if you can, then it's a model that can work very well indeed.

I happen to know someone doing this full-time. Specifically targeting SME's & start-ups.

They're good at what they do, and have worked very hard to get to where they are. To get there however took them 2-3 years of a tiny income, crazy hours, and a lot of stress & they're still not making all that much compared to the time they put into bringing in the work.

If they had to do it again, they would've spent their time elsewhere; trying to get maybe 3-5 big jobs per year, instead of the many projects they take on now.

Just my 2c.

The Corinthian

KonFusion wrote: »

They're good at what they do, and have worked very hard to get to where they are. To get there however took them 2-3 years of a tiny income, crazy hours, and a lot of stress & they're still not making all that much compared to the time they put into bringing in the work.

If they had to do it again, they would've spent their time elsewhere; trying to get maybe 3-5 big jobs per year, instead of the many projects they take on now.

I agree, and it's a model that suits people who are good at sales and networking, however I was responding in the context of a question of how to make a living through Elance, as it's probably the only realistic way that someone in a Western country can actually do so.

KonFusion

The Corinthian wrote: »

I agree, and it's a model that suits people who are good at sales and networking.

Indeed. The person I mentioned has a background in sales & marketing.

BostonB

Essien wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of these type of sites? - I recently signed up to Elance with a view to picking up some odd jobs for an extra bit of cash but so far, it's been an incredibly frustrating experience. The jobs (and the people who post them) are mostly complete bull****.......

TBH I think those sites are a waste of time for people here. You'll be constantly underbid and the money is a pittance. Even working locally in Ireland freelance work is a pita unless you are very good at getting money out of people. I used to spend half my time chasing people for money. In the end I would only do work if they paid in stages as we went. Few will agree to this, as a lot of freelance work is from chancer's who hope they'll get away with not paying if they can. Just not worth the effort.

You'd better getting partime work through an agency. It will still be a pittance, but you'd get paid and you'll make more contacts, which is probably just as important as the money.

The Corinthian

BostonB wrote: »

In the end I would only do work if they paid in stages as we went.

That's unfortunately necessary in Irish business at an SME level.

Few will agree to this, as a lot of freelance work is from chancer's who hope they'll get away with not paying if they can. Just not worth the effort.

The trick is packaging. If you come across as professional they'll treat you as such and larger firms will take you seriously. It's quite superficial, in reality, but unfortunately that's the way the World turns.

BostonB

I think the trick is getting as much of the money upfront as possible. Anyone that's planning to pull as fast one, will disappear once thats on the table. Most larger companies only deal with agencies or other companies. In my experience it would be far less common to see someone freelance and part-time working for a bigger place. I've only seen it handful of times.

Essien

Thank for the replies folks.

I wasn't asking if I could make a living at it (sorry if that's how it came across), it was more about picking up some extra cash, so I'd be very picky about the jobs I go for.

However, it seems that even this would be pointless.

Stephenius

The Corinthian wrote: »

This has created a gap in the market for a middleman, between the development house in the developing World and the client in the developed World. With this model, you do little or no development yourself - at most code reviews and a few minor tweaks. Your role becomes one of acting as a BA for the client and PM overseeing the development house (they'll have one locally as a point of contact, but you don't want to rely too much on them), as well as verifying / testing deliveries.

Note however, that you don't get your business from sites like Elance - you farm it out. You need to be able to bring in the business yourself, but if you can, then it's a model that can work very well indeed.

If this is true then web designers in Ireland are directly competing for work with web developers in developing countries -- only difference is that the work silently goes through a middleman.
Kinda like the way we outsourced manufacturing -- and lots of that disappeared.
Could that happen here? Could it put downward pressure on web design/developer wages?
Or is this just not going to happen for other reasons?

The Corinthian

BostonB wrote: »

I think the trick is getting as much of the money upfront as possible.

To a degree. The more you come across as a 'real business' and less a freelancer, the less likely they'll try to pull one over one you. Also, with experience you get a much better feeling of the one's who will do that and the ones who won't - and charge them double, seeking 50% up front.

Retaining ownership of the software until final payment (this may be included in the contract they sign with you) also works, in a few cases, as then suing them becomes a more viable proposition, as you are no longer suing for a bill of a few grand, but for the use of the software, which based upon revenue projections, can be tens of thousands.

Maintaining control on hosting or the domain can also be used to ensure payment, as pulling the plug can quickly get the attention of a client.

But as a rule, the cowboys will always pay you as long as they will need you in the future - it's always the last payment that is the tricky one. Structuring up-front payments to minimize any potential bad debt is one way around it, but so is the clever use of SLA's (that are always paid up front), as this prolongs their need for you.

A more imaginative, if less ethical, means of ensuring payment, is the inclusion of a logic bomb in your code, timed to cause a major bug to surface two months after your last invoice is due - it's an excellent way to focus the wayward client into paying what they owe, so as to ensure your services to 'fix' the bug in question.

Essien wrote: »

I wasn't asking if I could make a living at it (sorry if that's how it came across), it was more about picking up some extra cash, so I'd be very picky about the jobs I go for.

It's the same question at the end of the day - if the rates are not enough to make a living, then they're unlikely to be enough to tempt one to give up their free time.

However, it seems that even this would be pointless.

Indeed.

The Corinthian

Stephenius wrote: »

Could that happen here? Could it put downward pressure on web design/developer wages?
Or is this just not going to happen for other reasons?

Depends on the uptake of the managed-outsourced business model in any market and what margins are charged.

Stephenius

The Corinthian wrote: »

Depends on the uptake of the managed-outsourced business model in any market and what margins are charged.

Uptake is determined by the middleman since he is receiving the work. Margins are determined by labour costs. Generally, business occurs if there is a profit. There must be more to it. Maybe clients or middlemen prefer to communicate directly with the developer. Anyways, this is kinda off the topic.

BostonB

The Corinthian wrote: »

To a degree. The more you come across as a 'real business' and less a freelancer, the less likely they'll try to pull one over one you. Also, with experience you get a much better feeling of the one's who will do that and the ones who won't - and charge them double, seeking 50% up front....

Personally I just want to avoid them. Always more trouble than they are worth.

The Corinthian

BostonB wrote: »

Personally I just want to avoid them. Always more trouble than they are worth.

True, and as a rule of thumb you should - indeed, you will want to build up your reputation so you can draw your clients from a more reputable league - however, in a recession you don't always have the option to do this, if you still want to put food on your table.

BostonB

I think you need to compare it to other types of work. If you can make much more money say painting someone's house, or cleaning up a garden, than doing IT work. The the IT work isn't financially viable. Do something else and go work on certs, or a course or a opensource project until you have the skillset to can get that IT job/work that will pay close to (or more) than another job.

The Corinthian

I agree, but that's essentially what I've said throughout the discussion here.

was.deevey

They can be a good source of income Assumming you have a decent portfolio, decent personalized cover letters and are willing to go a bit further to prove you are more valuable than the next best Indian at (what seems to be) half the price.

For the majority of western freelancers pushing the fact that you are native english speaking and the ability to be flexible about your working hours to suit the client are key - I've got plenty of jobs where just "being Irish", getting on the phone to talk to a person and being blatantly honest and thorough about what i'd realistically provide given the price made a huge difference to the clients attitude of "I can get a guy for $100". I have taken over jobs from a fair few companies and individuals who could simply not deliver. A GOOD Asian firm will still charge around $20 per hour and you may or may not get a finished product if they think its not worth while bug testing.

For those wanting to get a leg-up into putting together a portfolio it can be good place to start.

Odesk IMHO is a joke these days, Freelancer.com is better quality employers but they are a complete shower of sh1ts as a company and will make you jump through some ridiculous hoops on occasions when you want to withdraw your money. If you are the designer type 99 designs has better payouts in the long run if you think you are up to it.

ivanc

Essien wrote: »

I suppose my issue lies ultimately with the guys who accept these jobs, but what the hell is wrong with these people?

Met with a woman last week who commissioned a small 5 product eCommerce site from a Pakistani company via Elance.

She was quoted what seemed like a very reasonable €550.00 for it but ended up with an almost bog standard copy of Storebox with no attempt at SEO and non-working links to her PayPal account.

It took them FIVE months to build and FTP it.

As a final kick in the teeth they have all the dependent files hosted on their server meaning that it will be a nightmare for anyone else to try and redesign or fix it.

Not exactly value for money.

devildriver

ivanc wrote: »

Met with a woman last week who commissioned a small 5 product eCommerce site from a Pakistani company via Elance.

She was quoted what seemed like a very reasonable €550.00 for it but ended up with an almost bog standard copy of Storebox with no attempt at SEO and non-working links to her PayPal account.

It took them FIVE months to build and FTP it.

As a final kick in the teeth they have all the dependent files hosted on their server meaning that it will be a nightmare for anyone else to try and redesign or fix it.

Not exactly value for money.

A client of mine did something similar last year. He picked a low-ball quote from Elance and contracted a company in Eastern Europe to build a medium sized ecommerce site. After 4 months it transpired that they had only completed some fairly ropey PSD files. No coding whatsoever had been done. He ceased working with that company.

He then took those PSDs and gave them to another company(?) on Elance, this time in Asia. Another 6 months passed before a very, very, ugly site was produced. No SEO, an almost unusable frontend, a dreadful backend and very questionable security. And it took the best part of a year..

But hey, it was cheap!

To get back on topic, I think those freelancing sites could be detrimental to your career! I certainly would never subcontract out to somebody on one of those sites.

The Corinthian

devildriver wrote: »

I certainly would never subcontract out to somebody on one of those sites.

It's like any outsourcing where you have limited, if any, ability to vet the potential supplier - a bit of a hit and miss. There are some good developers on these sites, but you do have to vet them and realistically given the limited options to do so, being able to test their knowledge is the only real way to do this, unless they come recommended by someone you trust. But if you find the good ones, they're worth their weight in gold (and cost much less).

Nonetheless, I certainly would not recommend that someone outside of the Web/mobile/software industry deal with them directly - I suspect both the examples that have just been given involved non-technical stakeholders who would have easily been 'pulled over the table' (to use a German expression) by a prospective supplier.

KonFusion

The Corinthian wrote: »

There are some good developers on these sites, but you do have to vet them and realistically given the limited options to do so, being able to test their knowledge is the only real way to do this, unless they come recommended by someone you trust. But if you find the good ones, they're worth their weight in gold (and cost much less).

Definitely. I know a Romanian PHP dev on elance and he's just excellent! Really high quality work & communication.

I can understand what devildriver is saying about it detrimental to your career though. If you come across a potential employer who's been burned by someone on elance in the past and left with a sour taste; it'd could be easy for them to tar you with the same brush.

daigo75

My personal opinion is that Elance & Co. are a complete waste of time in 90% of the cases. Waste of time for bidders, for the usual reasons (cheap competition who would almost work for free) and waste of time for the clients, because most of the contractors are complete cr.p. Being the middle man in such environment would be suicide, as you would still have to face the client (who is your client) when the contractor won't deliver what promised. Having to handle two hot potatoes at the same time is really not worth the effort.
Sure, there are some skilled people on these sites, but I doubt the percentage of them reaches two digits. Therefore, if you are a client, you will have to do a ton of vetting work. If you are a contractor, you will have to do a ton of poorly paid work to get yourself known.

In my opinion, avoid it, unless you have no other option.

devildriver

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suspect both the examples that have just been given involved non-technical stakeholders who would have easily been 'pulled over the table' (to use a German expression) by a prospective supplier.

Yes, that was exactly the case. In fact the client was trying to get me to work with the Elance developer and also to guide him in his choice of developers as he didn't have enough knowledge to make the decision himself.

I politely refused.

The Corinthian

devildriver wrote: »

Yes, that was exactly the case. In fact the client was trying to get me to work with the Elance developer and also to guide him in his choice of developers as he didn't have enough knowledge to make the decision himself.

I politely refused.

I would likely do the same, as if the client manages them directly thereafter it is still more than likely going to become a clusterfsck and you'll actually have set yourself up for possible liability - and who do you think they'll sue?

I actually would recommend to such a client that a local, technical, consultant should act as both a business analyst to them and a point of contact (or PM-lite) to the development team. But never, never, never half-way through a project, because if they come looking for such a person half-way through, it's already a too late.

Test Plan

Essien wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of these type of sites?

I recently signed up to Elance with a view to picking up some odd jobs for an extra bit of cash but so far, it's been an incredibly frustrating experience. The jobs (and the people who post them) are mostly complete bull****...

• "I need an ecommerce site with SEO for under $500"
• "I need a Wordpress site for $100"
• "I need you to complete a very specific ad hoc task but I refuse to offer any information, not even a screenshot or url"

I suppose my issue lies ultimately with the guys who accept these jobs, but what the hell is wrong with these people?


Anyway, is it something I should persevere with or will I always be left pulling my hair out?


Do decent jobs ever appear on these site?


Is there much money to be made or is it just not worth the time?


Are there any other sites for people in my situation that I should check out?

I recently signed up to elance looking for someone for a simple job under $500 with the intention of outsourcing to the likes of India, etc. The proposals for say $150-200 from India were from individuals and companies with great feedback, they offered to fulfill the job as described. A few UK and US companies came forward with excellent proposals on how to go forward with the project with the task at hand for $500. However, I was so impressed with one guys proposal from the UK, how he interpreted the job description and where he could take it, I ended up awarding it to him for $950. In the long term it was saving me money on other jobs such as SEO because of the approach he took to the project. In his proposal he went over and beyond what I was looking for. And in this case it worked for him.

There are certainly opportunities for anyone on eLance with higher bids than those from cheaper economies. It's all in the proposal. And dealing with a native English speaker makes communication a lot easier.

abbeyrock

As a user of Elance and Odesk from an employers point of view, I have had nothing but problems. for starters I have hired 4 people to dat, not one stuck to budget or timescale, My big mistake was not hiring local guys on a COD basis. The bulls**t they try to pull must be taught in School, just before your project is due for completion they tell you about their families etc and could I forward another milestone of $100. Then they start begging for a bonus after the project is late. dont go near them as an employer

Test Plan

abbeyrock wrote: »

As a user of Elance and Odesk from an employers point of view, I have had nothing but problems. for starters I have hired 4 people to dat, not one stuck to budget or timescale, My big mistake was not hiring local guys on a COD basis. The bulls**t they try to pull must be taught in School, just before your project is due for completion they tell you about their families etc and could I forward another milestone of $100. Then they start begging for a bonus after the project is late. dont go near them as an employer

I solve this by going with guys with over 30 reviews and a rock solid reputation. I have hired the local webshops before and ended up with the same BS with long overdue time targets and requests for more money for this or that taking more time.

I suppose the key thing is, if your looking for absolute quality and on time deadlines you have to go to the top dogs in the industry.

jobucks

I started my freelance career on odesk about 6 years ago, it was extremely difficult at the start to make any money. I took one very low paid job to get myself started and get feedback, after that it moved pretty well. It was a great place to gain some experience and learn some new skills, as a result I launched my own business full time nearly 2 years ago and a lot of my odesk clients followed me.

My advice: take one job you know you can do easily for a low cost, then up your rate to what you're worth.

Don't compete on price, you'll never beat those in low paying countries.

Compete on skills and sell yourself in cover letters, don't copy and paste a generic response

I no longer use odesk to find work, but do sometimes use it to hire freelancers.......there's a lot of chancers there so I find it a tedious exercise.

Here's a link to my odesk profile if you want to take a look (not touting for business, just want to give you an idea of how my odesk history looks) https://www.odesk.com/users/~01db3a602db14d2431