The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2013

tonyduggan

Deleted User wrote: »

Well what would you prefer though? Our best players following backs around the field like last year? He needs time at the very least to introduce a new crop and yes he has to be totally ruthless in the next 12 months. If you havent forgotten he trained the All Ireland winning team also and is widely respected by the group. Eoin Kelly even said to me there last year 'he was the only man for the job'

Pa Bourke is far from our best player. It was Lar following Tommy Walsh around. He needs time i agree but hes had time, we still had to look at Pa Bourke fluttering around against Limerick, Noel Shane Bonnar Callanan all not up to it this year and they all started against Limerick, all bar Callanan yday and he came on for lar then. Why couldnt Denis Maher or Aidan McCormack get a look in instead of these clowns afraid to give it 100%? Why didnt Bergin start yesterday if he was fit? Im afraid i cant defend this team now. It was bad enough the way we lost last year. To be done for the summer and the Munster final hasnt even been played yet is unreal

tonyduggan

Reginald P. DuM wrote: »

Cannot stress how unhelpful that post is....

What would be "helpful"? Pretending we played well yesterday?

We were humiliated last year, and we didnt win a championship game this year. Spending my ****ing money to go and see Noel McGrath pulling out of a 50-50 ball is unhelpful to my wallet

tonyduggan

Eli Manning wrote: »

We all want a massive improvement but at the moment it's about steadying a sinking ship. We need to find a midfielder and up to 3 forwards over the next 6-10 months.

I'm quite happy with the competition between 2-7 bar 3. I know Saint was very good yesterday but realistically we need to find another option at full back as Saint isn't exactly very tall.

Next year we're probably looking at:

Gleeson
O'Brien Saint Cahill
Bergin O'Mahony P. Maher
B. Maher No. 9
No.10 Bonnar Forde
Bubbles No.14 Lar

I'd say Lar will give it another year. He won't wont to leave it like that. I don't know if Saint is the future at FB but he was excellent yesterday. All our back line were. I think Bergin might see a bit of time in midfield next year in the league. But I hope we can find a guy out of somewhere to play with Brendan Maher.

Hopefully Forde can make the step up and I think he probably deserved more time on the field this year. Bubbles will be there next year and hopefully without the weeks of Army training Bonnar can regain form. Then you have Callanan, Noel McGrath etc. who will need to up a gear to get back into the side.

If we can unearth two forwards we will be 90% of the way there. I think this team could well be back in good competition next year but I think we may be in a period where it'll take 2 years for lads to find their place on this side. Luckily we have a decent core of young players.

I could have sworn we did that a few years ago though?

Alpha Dog 1

People say EOS needs time blah blah blah, he's had plenty of time and has not even started to try and change things. Just because he was a selector in 2010 does not automatically make him a good manager 3 years later.

I know changing managers consistently is not ideal but maybe it's time to look for a manager from outside the county.

randd1

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont deny EOS has made mistakes but lets not go down the road of lauding Declan Ryan who appeared to have little interest in the team let alone influence and as for Tommy Dunne...let us not forget these are lads who sanctioned the ludicrous tactic of Lar stalking Tommy last year.

There's a difference in having little interest in the team, and the team not having the same belief in new management, which I don't think they had after Sheedy left.

I think you're being very unfair to Declan Ryan and Tommy Dunne as well. As a senior management team they delivered two Munster titles and got Tipp to the point of a two in a row.

They also weren't that estranged from the players either considering they helped a few of them to an AI minor in 07, and were popular choices for the job when they first took the big chair because of how well they worked with those players.

I think looking at how some of the players regressed in attitude and application are more telling of Tipp than the ability of the managers of the past three years.

One management teams failure can be explained as poor management, but two? No.

The management teams of the past three years have to have their share of the blame, and have and will, but to me its down to the players, the older driving force of 09/10 have waned badly and can't carry the same fight, responsibility and quality as they once could, and the younger lads are not the players, mentally especially, as we thought they would be (Paudie Maher and Micky Cahill apart).

Ryan and Dunne were scapegoats for one horrendous result last year, despite everything they've done for Tipp hurling in management across two levels.

O'Shea made some bad mistakes too this year, worse in some cases in my opinion than Ryan and Dunne, and will either fall on his sword or will have every single decision scrutinized and will be under the fiercest pressure from here on that no Tipp manager has been under for years.

But to me the failing of the past three years has not been management, but the players. They driving force have regressed, and the lads coming through just don't have the stomach and heart as the core that they're replacing.

There's not much that a management team can do if the players aren't up to the job in terms of what's needed, or are up to the job but don't have the work ethic or stomach for a fight.

Put simply, Tipp's failure the last few years has been down to some Tipp players who have failed their consistently good colleagues (especially those in defense who have carried them since the 2011 Munster final) and their most recent management teams by lacking something in work ethic, attitude and stomach rather than than being simply down to poor management.

And if those some Tipp players got the finger out, work as hard as they possibly can, develop the stomach for a fight, develop the attitude, ignore their own hype, believe in themselves, are willing to die for their teammates and apply themselves to their very limit every time they take to the field, there's no reason why Tipp can't compete and win another AI in the next few years, those players have hurling and the ability, they just lack stomach, work ethic, attitude and application at highest level at the moment. And those aspect won't come from management, its got to come form the players themselves.

Eli Manning

Eli Manning wrote: »

We all want a massive improvement but at the moment it's about steadying a sinking ship. We need to find a midfielder and up to 3 forwards over the next 6-10 months.

I'm quite happy with the competition between 2-7 bar 3. I know Saint was very good yesterday but realistically we need to find another option at full back as Saint isn't exactly very tall.

Next year we're probably looking at:

Gleeson
O'Brien Saint Cahill
Bergin O'Mahony P. Maher
B. Maher No. 9
No.10 Bonnar Forde
Bubbles No.14 Lar

I'd say Lar will give it another year. He won't wont to leave it like that. I don't know if Saint is the future at FB but he was excellent yesterday. All our back line were. I think Bergin might see a bit of time in midfield next year in the league. But I hope we can find a guy out of somewhere to play with Brendan Maher.

Hopefully Forde can make the step up and I think he probably deserved more time on the field this year. Bubbles will be there next year and hopefully without the weeks of Army training Bonnar can regain form. Then you have Callanan, Noel McGrath etc. who will need to up a gear to get back into the side.

If we can unearth two forwards we will be 90% of the way there. I think this team could well be back in good competition next year but I think we may be in a period where it'll take 2 years for lads to find their place on this side. Luckily we have a decent core of young players.

Good post, but i think all players over 30 barring Darren Gleeson, should not be considered. We need to build for the future today. Im not so sure we can afford the luxury of either Pa Bourke, Callanan or Noel McGrath or perhaps any of them anymore. The whole outlook and philosophy has to change. Tiky-Taka hurling is redundant and we cant rely on boys to battle. We need the men to step up to the plate. Our 21s weren't the most stylish bunch last year but their commitment couldn't be faulted. The likes of the Clonakenny Ryans (Pa and Willie), Andrew Ryan, Cathal Barrett, John Meagher, Seamus Kennedy, Tossy Hamill, Justin Cahill, Liam Mcgrath, Colm O'Riordan, Dylan Fitzelle, Niall O'Meara....there is no shortage of talent there but we definately have to start looking at ways of utilising that ball better around the opposition 40.

randd1

randd1 wrote: »

I think looking at how some of the players regressed in attitude and application are more telling of Tipp than the ability of the managers of the past three years.

One management teams failure can be explained as poor management, but two? No.

The management teams of the past three years have to have their share of the blame, and have and will, but to me its down to the players, the older driving force of 09/10 have waned badly and can't carry the same fight, responsibility and quality as they once could, and the younger lads are not the players, mentally especially, as we thought they would be (Paudie Maher and Micky Cahill apart).

Ryan and Dunne were scapegoats for one horrendous result last year, despite everything they've done for Tipp hurling in management across two levels.

O'Shea made some bad mistakes too this year, worse in some cases in my opinion than Ryan and Dunne, and will either fall on his sword or will have every single decision scrutinized and will be under the fiercest pressure from here on that no Tipp manager has been under for years.

But to me the failing of the past three years has not been management, but the players. They driving force have regressed, and the lads coming through just don't have the stomach and heart as the core that they're replacing.

There's not much that a management team can do if the players aren't up to the job in terms of what's needed, or are up to the job but don't have the work ethic or stomach for a fight.

Put simply, Tipp's failure the last few years has been down to some Tipp players who have failed their consistently good colleagues (especially those in defense who have carried them since the 2011 Munster final) and their most recent management teams by lacking something in work ethic, attitude and stomach rather than than being down to poor management.

Probably a fair way of looking at it. Yes Declan etc should shoulder the blame but not all. Still think O'Shea will get it right but acknowledge he has made mistakes.

Alpha Dog 1

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

People say EOS needs time blah blah blah, he's had plenty of time and has not even started to try and change things. Just because he was a selector in 2010 does not automatically make him a good manager 3 years later.

I know changing managers consistently is not ideal but maybe it's time to look for a manager from outside the county.

He has had one year in fairness. At least give him one more. If its the same result next year then ill agree.

Alpha Dog 1

randd1 wrote: »

There's not much that a management team can do if the players aren't up to the job in terms of what's needed, or are up to the job but don't have the work ethic or stomach for a fight.

.

Of course there is, under performing players should be dropped which seems to be almost impossible for some players on the team it seems.
We won the minor all Ireland last year, there's plenty of young, hungry players in the county who would jump through hoops to play for their county.

tonyduggan

tonyduggan wrote: »

Pa Bourke is far from our best player. It was Lar following Tommy Walsh around. He needs time i agree but hes had time, we still had to look at Pa Bourke fluttering around against Limerick, Noel Shane Bonnar Callanan all not up to it this year and they all started against Limerick, all bar Callanan yday and he came on for lar then. Why couldnt Denis Maher or Aidan McCormack get a look in instead of these clowns afraid to give it 100%? Why didnt Bergin start yesterday if he was fit? Im afraid i cant defend this team now. It was bad enough the way we lost last year. To be done for the summer and the Munster final hasnt even been played yet is unreal

Yeah id agree with you re Pa. He quite simply isnt good enough and i would say even to be a sub. The fact that Bergin had a plate and pin inserted in his hand 20 days ago and our captain was taken off for him speaks volumes. Fact is he wasnt fit either but O'Shea had to go for broke at that stage

Not sure im convinced with Denis Maher. Firstly i think he headed off to America this year if i recall and only done so because he couldnt make the panel and secondly Maher is very very windy. He could be absolutely brilliant or absolutely dire. McCormack yes would definately be worth a try as he can take points from any range. Another one for next year.

O'Shea needs to wield the axe in the next few months. We cant always blame the managers i mean he cant exactly go onto the field for them and win ball for them so the players should have stepped it up to a certain degree. O'Sheas big foible has been his loyalty to lads who have delivered previously but unfortunately the sands of time have now run out for some.

tonyduggan

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah id agree with you re Pa. He quite simply isnt good enough and i would say even to be a sub. The fact that Bergin had a plate and pin inserted in his hand 20 days ago and our captain was taken off for him speaks volumes. Fact is he wasnt fit either, O'Shea had to go for broke.

Not sure im convinced with Denis Maher. Firstly i think he headed off to America this year if i recall and only done so because he couldnt make the panel and secondly Maher is very very windy. He could be absolutely brilliant or absolutely dire. McCormack yes would definately be worth a try as he can take points from any range. Another one for next year.

O'Shea needs to wield the axe in the next few months. We cant always blame the managers i mean he cant exactly go onto the field for them and win ball for them so the players should have stepped it up to a certain degree. O'Sheas big foible has been his loyalty to lads who have delivered previously but unfortunately the sands of time have now run out for some.

In fairness more than 2 players that started yesterday should have been dropped. Thats the managers choice not the players.

How in gods name could, after eveything that happened last year, Callanan play the way he has this year. Who does he think he is? Noel McGrath too. Attitude just looks terrible from them, and a few others

Hard luck to the minor footballers. Lost by 5 in the end but battled to the death with 14 for most part and never gave up in what was a tough away tie. Nothing went right for us but we are still in it by all means.

Alpha Dog 1

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Of course there is, under performing players should be dropped which seems to be almost impossible for some players on the team it seems.
We won the minor all Ireland last year, there's plenty of young, hungry players in the county who would jump through hoops to play for their county.

And they'll get their go i reckon. He called up some u21s after the Limerick defeat but lets face it now it was a bit late to give a heap of these lads their Championship debut in a cauldron atmosphere to be fair.

tonyduggan

tonyduggan wrote: »

In fairness more than 2 players that started yesterday should have been dropped. Thats the managers choice not the players.

How in gods name could, after eveything that happened last year, Callanan play the way he has this year. Who does he think he is? Noel McGrath too. Attitude just looks terrible from them, and a few others

He certainly done himself no favours with Rocky who should be binned but i do feel bad for a good man like O'Shea at the same time to show such loyalty to him and be rewarded with one lacklustre performance after another. Bonnar has changed job this year being and myself from a family where there is plenty of army men i can tell you that the first 3 months of that particular job are the most intense as it involves heavy training to go with the heavy training he was doing with Tipperary. Callanan and Noel id agree though. Im not sure they have any place on an intercounty team with our annual aspirations. I hope loyalty isnt O'Sheas major flaw either and that he doesn't go down the Giovanni Trappatoni route.

It is possibly fair to say also that Eoin and John O'Brien have played one championship game too many and are struggling with the pace?

tonyduggan

Deleted User wrote: »

He certainly done himself no favours with Rocky who should be binned but i do feel bad for a good man like O'Shea at the same time to show such loyalty to him and be rewarded with one lacklustre performance after another. Bonnar has changed job this year being and myself from a family where there is plenty of army men i can tell you that the first 3 months of that particular job are the most intense as it involves heavy training to go with the heavy training he was doing with Tipperary. Callanan and Noel id agree though. Im not sure they have any place on an intercounty team with our annual aspirations. I hope loyalty isnt O'Sheas major flaw either and that he doesn't go down the Giovanni Trappatoni route.

It is possibly fair to say also that Eoin and John O'Brien have played one championship game too many and are struggling with the pace?

Kelly, Curran and Cummins, id say thesun is after setting. JOB though, its hard to drop him considering he can still win ball. Maybe best used as a sub should he stay on. Lar is one man who has to stay he was very good yesterday until his unfortunate injury, met with howling from a lot of black and amber tinted fools in the crowd.

Look I'm not saying sack O shea or whatever but jesus this year has been horrific. I've been to 5 tipp games this year and the only one they won is the league semi v dublin. Bubbles and Forde the only two young players blooded this year. Unfair bringing Forde on yday in fairness, a 19 year old wasnt going to swing things our way yesterday. I cant understand why buggy didnt get more time yday, a big strong lad like him, that game was made for him.

This is the 3rd year in a row we've been calling for big changes in the tipp camp, and we've been returned with humiliation last year and our worst year since 1998 this year.

ReacherCreature

This calling for O' Shea's head is surprising. I'm a firm believer in giving some time, miracles don't happen overnight. I know it's hard to watch and tough on the wallets but Rome wasn't built in a day; he surely has a plan. It's the creeping of the soccer culture where managers are fired out after a year.

I'll go on the record and say Cummins has a year left in him. The guy is fiercely motivated and won't give way any time soon. I don't know can I say the same for Eoin Kelly though, regarding him having another year.

Maybe it's post-game reaction but I won't be surprised to see a few players to go.

tonyduggan

ReacherCreature wrote: »

This calling for O' Shea's head is surprising. I'm a firm believer in giving some time, miracles don't happen overnight. I know it's hard to watch and tough on the wallets but Rome wasn't built in a day; he surely has a plan. It's the creeping of the soccer culture where managers are fired out after a year.

I'll go on the record and say Cummins has a year left in him. The guy is fiercely motivated and won't give way any time soon. I don't know can I say the same for Eoin Kelly though, regarding him having another year.

Maybe it's post-game reaction but I won't be surprised to see a few players to go.

Rome was built between 2007 and 2010 and has been dismantled since then by poor management and horrible horrible attitudes and performances of players

ReacherCreature

ReacherCreature wrote: »

This calling for O' Shea's head is surprising. I'm a firm believer in giving some time, miracles don't happen overnight. I know it's hard to watch and tough on the wallets but Rome wasn't built in a day; he surely has a plan. It's the creeping of the soccer culture where managers are fired out after a year.

I'll go on the record and say Cummins has a year left in him. The guy is fiercely motivated and won't give way any time soon. I don't know can I say the same for Eoin Kelly though, regarding him having another year.

Maybe it's post-game reaction but I won't be surprised to see a few players to go.

No i think he needs to go. His overhit puckouts arent doing us any favours either. My father said he studied him pucking out and he seems to just place huge emphasis on power rather than accuracy. I mean tbh he is 40 and he probably stayed on a year too many if truth be known.

tonyduggan

Deleted User wrote: »

No i think he needs to go. His overhit puckouts arent doing us any favours either. My father said he studied him pucking out and he seems to just place huge emphasis on power rather than accuracy. I mean tbh he is 40 and he probably stayed on a year too many if truth be known.

I was behind the goals he was in in the first half. Seeing his puck outs from behind was a sight to see. Very poor placement and like you said too much power. Could do with a bit of accuracy between the sticks

tonyduggan

tonyduggan wrote: »

I was behind the goals he was in in the first half. Seeing his puck outs from behind was a sight to see. Very poor placement and like you said too much power. Could do with a bit of accuracy between the sticks

Who has great accuracy is Darragh Egan only he badly needs to shed that weight before he can even be considered

ReacherCreature

I suppose you guys are correct but a lot of balls that came down to forwards but Kilkenny won out. Forwards weren't getting up there. I know puck outs have declined in standard but there was a lot that were placed to forwards and they didn't win many.

ReacherCreature

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I suppose you guys are correct but a lot of balls that came down to forwards but Kilkenny won out. Forwards weren't getting up there. I know puck outs have declined in standard but there was a lot that were placed to forwards and they didn't win many.

True also. Additionally Tipp are a team who seem to have difficulty controlling the ball and the flipside sometimes overhitting passes to each other

Alpha Dog 1

Just watching the leinster final and thinking conal keaney is exactly the type of player tipp need.

Hitchens

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Just watching the leinster final and thinking conal keaney is exactly the type of player tipp need.

or Ryan Dwyer?

Hitchens

Hitchens wrote: »

or Ryan Dwyer?

Dwyer like Bonnar is a man of great heart but limited. I suppose though Tipp could do with more battlers. We simply havent enough. Keaney is a class act and they missed him badly when they played us in 2011. That said 8 wides today

Hitchens

Deleted User wrote: »

Dwyer like Bonnar is a man of great heart but limited. I suppose though Tipp could do with more battlers. We simply havent enough. Keaney is a class act and they missed him badly when they played us in 2011. That said 8 wides today

some win by the Dubs over Joe Canning Galway :eek:

the AI double could be on!

Tipperary animal lover

Hitchens wrote: »

some win by the Dubs over Joe Canning Galway :eek:

the AI double could be on!

Love to see the dubs win it out.

Alpha Dog 1

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Love to see the dubs win it out.

Anyone but Kilkenny.

ReacherCreature

ReacherCreature wrote: »

This calling for O' Shea's head is surprising. I'm a firm believer in giving some time, miracles don't happen overnight. I know it's hard to watch and tough on the wallets but Rome wasn't built in a day; he surely has a plan. It's the creeping of the soccer culture where managers are fired out after a year.

I'll go on the record and say Cummins has a year left in him. The guy is fiercely motivated and won't give way any time soon. I don't know can I say the same for Eoin Kelly though, regarding him having another year.

Maybe it's post-game reaction but I won't be surprised to see a few players to go.

I totally agree with you and to be fair to Premierstone its the exact kind of fickle sh*te he was referring to about Tipp fans. I for one am sickened to even hear O'Shea and sacking mentioned in the same sentence. While alot of us thought Daly had brought Dublin as far as he could they went on to take the Bob O'Keeffe today after beating Galway and Kilkenny because the powers that be knew better. Its 1 year ffs.

Tipp are in transition again sad as it is to say. Not ideal but the fact of the matter is that certain players who we thought would amount to become greats, have turned out to be great big flops who wouldn't jump into a dark room. And then out of the minor/u21 winning crop we did get leaders at the back who hopefully will form the bedrock to bringing us forward once more

If we do get rid of EOS then who would be better? Those who reckon Sheedy would do well to remember who his backroom team were in 2010. 2 of those are currently involved in the Tipp senior setup.

What annoys me is that there will be no way of avoiding the scutter from Babs Keating tomorrow. He of the huge ego who failed and blames everyone bar himself will undermine and cut the sh*t out of his own fellow county men in his gutter column tomorrow because of some grudge he has fabricated in his head against anyone who took the hotseat after the self professed great one.

We will be told by this man how O'Shea got it completely wrong and hadnt a clue and the sad thing is that certain people with not enough sense will follow his lead.