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The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2013
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I'm sorry to say but I don't agree with him,they didn't all fight,some of them did but others definitely didn't fight,that was plainly obvious.Also he did nothing to change the failings of the half forward line, we got the same crap from them as we did against Limerick and in several other games this year and last.:mad:
I agree with that but tbf to O'Shea i suppose he has to refer to them all collectively. The fact he took off our captain for example and put on a guy with injury doubt would suggest that he well knows that certain players are only playing to a percentage of their capability
Overall i felt Tipp were decent having seen it on second showing to be honest. When your at match emotion runs extremely high but in the cold light of day i was encouraged with the few things i seen in the highlights that you almost forget about during the course of a match when your there.
When we ran at Kilkenny i felt we were getting most joy funnily enough but if that was counteracted then we were up the creek without a paddle because we are just no good at fielding. Since Pat Kerwick who could catch with the best of them, we have lacked a real good ball catcher0 -
evolving tipperary wrote: »
Id have no doubt Tommy would be good to have in a role that Dublin have him in but as a manager/selector im not so sure. Doing drills is one thing and to be fair to Tommy he did win 2 Munster's with us, but the fact that he sanctioned that crazy tactic last August even if he didnt come up with it would suggest he lacks a bit in tactical planning.
Denis Byrne had a fairly similar role in Dublin back in 2007 where he was doing skills training with them afaik0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Id have no doubt Tommy would be good to have in a role that Dublin have him in but as a manager/selector im not so sure. Doing drills is one thing and to be fair to Tommy he did win 2 Munster's with us, but the fact that he sanctioned that crazy tactic last August even if he didnt come up with it would suggest he lacks a bit in tactical planning.
Denis Byrne had a fairly similar role in Dublin back in 2007 where he was doing skills training with them afaik
Bang on!0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I agree with that but tbf to O'Shea i suppose he has to refer to them all collectively. The fact he took off our captain for example and put on a guy with injury doubt would suggest that he well knows that certain players
Overall i felt Tipp were decent having seen it on second showing to be honest. When your at match emotion runs extremely high but in the cold light of day i was encouraged with the few things i seen in the highlights that you almost forget about during the course of a match when your there.
When we ran at Kilkenny i felt we were getting most joy funnily enough but if that was counteracted then we were up the creek without a paddle because we are just no good at fielding. Since Pat Kerwick who could catch with the best of them, we have lacked a real good ball catcher
totally agree - some of the performances were outstanding really - it was so tight - crisp hurling - high skill level - when compared to the looseness of Sunday's game - A bigger pitch might have suited us but that's neither here nor there now - Kilkenny just got a better return out of their forwards - picking Larkin midfield and having him drop deep to help out and pick up ball - was a masterstroke from KK0 -
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tonyduggan wrote: »I think a lot of ye are refusing to believe just how bad we have been the ever since the Munster Final of 2012. We havent won a game since. No positives and onwards and upwards and all that crap, i dont want to go through a 2002-2008 again. We should be winning All Irelands, not having lads afraid to contest a 50-50 ball for god sake
I dont think we will be as bad going forward. I'm optimistic that when O'Shea gets to work with a new wave of great young players coming through to go with the likes of Bergin, O'Mahony, Brendan, Saint, Padraic, Bonnar, Bubbles and Cahill that we will rise again. My belief is that despite the disappointment, that the bell curve has began to turn upward. We cant compare last years hiding to losing a very close game against Kilkenny on Saturday where we missed goal chances and our most potent forward went off injured.
Pat Gilroy suffered annihilation to Kerry back in 2009 when he first took the Dublin job so it took him time to mould Dublin in the way he wanted them to play. Tipp's transition will be alot smoother.0 -
Davin Stand wrote: »It was a real eye opener during the week to read that our starting 15 on Saturday had 13 players who started the 2010 All Ireland Final. The only players not playing were Declan Fanning (retired) and Gearoid Ryan (returning from injury).
Very good point.
As much as lads go on about Kilkenny having old legs, they seem to forget that a lot of the Tipp players have been there since Sheedy came along in 08, with very little turnover in personnel. They've done an awful lot of hurling in that time, and emotionally they've been involved in 10 different finals in that time (3 AI's, 3 league finals and 4 Munster Finals), not to mention 2 AISF's.
Compared to Kilkenny who had Eoin Murphy, Paul Murphy, Kieran Joyce, Lester Ryan, Mattie Ruth, Walter Walsh and Colin Fennelly that started on Saturday that weren't there in 2010, with some of them only making debuts last year. Joyce is the oldest at 26.
If anyone looked the tired team towards the end on Saturday, it was Tipp.Davin Stand wrote: »To me that was a recipe for failure. I have sympathy for EO'S because the reaction to his appointment as manager was way over the top, We almost took it for granted that the good times were back and that we were on our way up the steps of the Hogan Stand.
Another good point. Kilkenny have rebuilt to an extent since 2010, while other sides like Galway, Clare, Dublin and Limerick are getting better and harder to beat. There was no guarantee that what worked in 2010 was going to work now. To be fair to O'Shea, one of the first things he said was it wasn't going to like 2010 this time around.
I think there was a lot of hype about him being some tactical genius, lads lauding him as the mastermind of 2010, with the word intelligent passed around like confetti.
I think what's forgotten was the manager Tipp had at the time, Sheedy, had a great record in charge of teams for for coming up with new tactics and outfoxing other managers tactics but always said it was a management team effort. Perhaps too much was expected of O'Shea, maybe a man that wasn't as good as people think?
Also there's a world of difference to managing a team than coaching one, O'Shea may be a top coach but does that mean he'll be a top manager? I suppose we'll have to wait and see on that count.Davin Stand wrote: »Tipp have played 10 matches since the Waterford Crystal Final up to last Saturday and we lost 6 of them. Those stats. speak for themselves.
A telling statistic.
Whatever about the early rounds of the league or the WC cup, the fact is in the last three knockout games, Tipp have been beaten, twice by Kilkenny without their full compliment and once by Limerick when the signs were there that Limerick could do a number on them. Something should have been copped early this year and sorted.
Tipp certainly don't lack quality, or fight in certain terms. I wouldn't be surprised if they came back next year and won the AI to be honest, such is their quality.
However there needs to be a freshening up of personnel and attitude, and if that means being utterly ruthless then so be it.
I just wonder does O'Shea have that ruthlessness about him considering he stuck with what he knew which hasn't been working than gamble on something unknown like playing a serious (and hard-working) talent like Forde that may have been the difference?
Bear in mind that Cody was prepared to throw in Walsh, Shefflin and Delaney straight into the team when young, started Walter Walsh in an AI final, Allen is doing it with Limerick and that JBM has done it with Cork as well.0 -
I think really its harsh to judge Eamon on this year and that next year will be the managements real litmus test which i think those doubters will eat their words.
He only started to assemble the squad late last winter so to expect so much in so little time is unrealistic and unfair. In 2010, None of John O'Brien, Lar Corbett, Eoin Kelly and Paul Curran had hit the 30 mark.
Shane McGrath has declined in form with the last two years considering how instrumental he was previously and while many would question the decision to make him captain, he may have been going well in training over the winter tbf and once the decision is made its very hard to put the hand up and admit it went badly wrong.
Its a different situation when a manager has to choose a captain unlike the situation when the county champions were nominating one, pre-2010. Once you make a decision its very hard to go back on it and put your hand up and admit that you were wrong. It could also destroy the little bit of confidence the player has, if they were to be stripped of the captaincy and could cause a backlash within the panel right or wrong. So while his persistence with McGrath might have seemed bizarre to those on the outside, perhaps we may need to think about it and see where he was coming from0 -
Additionally the fact that some of the players are in their 30s might mean that movement within those forwards has declined and then we have Callanan and Noel who seem to want the ball on a platter. Bonnars confidence and form has dipped alot. If he has joined the army then more than likely the pressures of changing to a new job that has its own physical demands for the first few months may be a factor. I feel there needs to be more cohesion and communication between forwards also. All too often we see 2 men going for the same ball or one man fighting on his own in isolation. Contrast that to 2010 when we hunted in packs and in the present day the 6 backs seem to have a telepathic understanding of each other0
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Its hard to beleive that Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Wexford, Kilkenny, Galway, thats eight counties; are still standing, and Tipperary are gone. Four Munster counties remain, we were number one for the last two years; now we are actually fifth ranked in Munster terms, as Kerry dont compete.
All the major teams are still standing, bar us. When you look at it that way, it puts the year in perspective.
When you consider three years ago we were number one in the country, its some fall from grace.0 -
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the player wrote: »Its hard to beleive that Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Wexford, Kilkenny, Galway, thats eight counties; are still standing, and Tipperary are gone. Four Munster counties remain, we were number one for the last two years; now we are actually fifth ranked in Munster terms, as Kerry dont compete.
All the major teams are still standing, bar us. When you look at it that way, it puts the year in perspective.
When you consider three years ago we were number one in the country, its some fall from grace.
Not accusing you per se, but I think as a county that we need to lose the whole snobbery of having a devine right to be ahead of certain counties. Yes its a kick up the arse but one we should use in a proactive way to build and go forward. Its hard, but its happened and the rest remain because they deserve to be there. Only one team will win the All Ireland in the end and sometimes losing in September can be the worst feeling of the lot.
Its been one of those years but i think the curve will turn. The draw you could argue hadnt been kind to us considering we have got best team of the last decade. We got nothing soft.
But i believe we will come back stronger from this. The other counties were bound to improve at some stage and we will turn our corner too. I think that personally we are entering an age of hurling similar to the 90s where the team that wants it the most on any given day will ultimately prosper. I could be wrong and this could be a false dawn but i cannot help feeling that this year is giving us a picture of whats to come in the future. We will have to be ready to have everything in our Arsenal to meet these challenges in the future head on0 -
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You are talking sense Tipp G. I suppose it takes a Waterford man to give us perspective.
John Mullane reckons we bring the best out of Kilkenny. Hard to argue with that. He also said if you took our meltdown last year out of the picture, we have been the only county to consistently give them a game.
If we are talking about the best team in hurling history, then we should be realistic.
If KK were not around we could have done a three in a row, with a little luck. Apart from Galway (once) and Cork in Munster (as ever) we have lorded over the rest.
Thats sport for you, every one has a great champion who rules a certain period of time. We were cursed to have a great side in the making in the KK era.
It was so telling to note the different attitude of their players against Tipp. Against Dublin they were lethargic and battle weary, yet they were men on fire the following week. Ritchie Hogan was missing against the Sky blues, yet he was a man on a mission against us, ditto Eoin Larkin, Jackie Tyrell.
They have a deep seated hatred for us, their manager never has a good word to say about us, yet he talks up everyone else.
their faces said it all after 2010 final, sick as pigs!
The backlash was always going to be severe, they have gone down in many peoples estimation after jeering Corbett. Great champs, lousy sporting people.
P.S. Fair play to Des Cahill for highlighting the jeering issue, and saying it had no place in the game.0 -
the player wrote: »You are talking sense Tipp G. I suppose it takes a Waterford man to give us perspective.
John Mullane reckons we bring the best out of Kilkenny. Hard to argue with that. He also said if you took our meltdown last year out of the picture, we have been the only county to consistently give them a game.
If we are talking about the best team in hurling history, then we should be realistic.
If KK were not around we could have done a three in a row, with a little luck. Apart from Galway (once) and Cork in Munster (as ever) we have lorded over the rest.
Thats sport for you, every one has a great champion who rules a certain period of time. We were cursed to have a great side in the making in the KK era.
Circumstances haven't helped Tipp's cause either to be fair. On the back of winning an All Ireland we had a change of management. Firstly say hypothetically Liam, Eamon and Mick had stayed on for 2011 then i would reckon that they might have observed any complacency and drop of standards and changed the panel and tactics how they seen fit.
To be fair to Declan and Tommy, they came in and had a hard job of putting their stamp on a team which had just won the All Ireland. They hadn't dealt with any of this dynamic of players at Senior level in 2010 to know who had become complacent and who was getting carried away with the success of the previous year.
They also were in a no win situation. Win and it was Sheedy's team and of course in defeat they shouldered alot of blame that perhaps with the benefit of hindsight some of the players should have received more than their fair share of.
Then of course tactically they were naive if im being totally honest. In terms of personality type, the shoe never quite fitted either with Declan in the hotseat. He is a genuinely decent man but perhaps not suited to being number 1. Might have benefited to have done his trade under an experienced manager first before he could ever step into that position and Tommy hadn't much more experience at this level where your going up against Cody.
Kilkenny haven't had to face this issue of managerial change and of course a great Cork team suffered because of that lack of continuity. Kilkenny have been blessed in this regard. They have had their own bad seasons by their high standards in 2001, 2004, 2005, 2010 and last years Leinster final, but they have had Brian Cody every step of the way learning from all the negative experiences and transforming them into positive experiences. It makes a huge huge difference to have that continuity.
I believe you can use other examples of sport that can apply to scenarios in Inter-county management. I remember an anecdote told by Gary Pallister one time that when Alex Ferguson won the title for the first time and the squad returned to pre season training ahead of the 93/94 season he observed a slackness creeping into the panel, so to combat this he arrived at training one morning brandishing an envelope.
He called the squad over into a huddle and said "In this envelope, i have the names of 3 players....and i think that these 3 players might be just dropping their standards and becoming complacent...i might have to keep an eye on them". And then he walked off.
With that announcement the United squad rallied together and took ownership of the situation, each petrified that it might be their name in the envelope and collectively decided that they needed to up the ante as a team to avoid being dropped/sold. I think Sheedy and co would have been priceless in this regard also if he had been there in 2011 as he would have noticed slackening a mile away and dealt with it.
Eamon was right to go with the core group of players that he had in 2010 and build from there tbh. I think that now he is in a position to transform a situation which he has inherited and he can blend the right mix of youth and experience going forward0 -
I would not agree at all that Eamonn O'Shea was right to depend almost entirely on the 2010 team to repeat that year in 2013. He tried to turn back the clock 3 years and failed. It was a policy destined to fail. The result was that 2013 was mostly a year wasted in both league and championship..0
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Just wondering if anyone knows a good website that has the Tipp senior football and hurling club championship fixtures and results in it.
Tried all the usual places for it0 -
Davin Stand wrote: »I would not agree at all that Eamonn O'Shea was right to depend almost entirely on the 2010 team to repeat that year in 2013. He tried to turn back the clock 3 years and failed. It was a policy destined to fail. The result was that 2013 was mostly a year wasted in both league and championship..
Bubbles, Kieran Bergin, Jason Forde... Not all doom and gloom0 -
Just wondering if anyone knows a good website that has the Tipp senior football and hurling club championship fixtures and results in it.
Tried all the usual places for it
The official website, http://tipperary.gaa.ie has all fixtures and results. I have heard complaints that some of the divisional boards are slower than others to update their fixtures and results.0 -
Davin Stand wrote: »I would not agree at all that Eamonn O'Shea was right to depend almost entirely on the 2010 team to repeat that year in 2013. He tried to turn back the clock 3 years and failed. It was a policy destined to fail. The result was that 2013 was mostly a year wasted in both league and championship..
Well to be fair, he had just returned to the setup himself and who does he pick? I mean if there was another peer group of hurlers to bring in that were better then the existing group of players then they would be there but there wasnt, and he cant exactly flood the camp with young lads or it could backfire like it did for the Galway footballers up in Mayo.
I think he was right to stick with the core group of players and mould from there. Anyone who thought 2013 was going to be instant ready brek were kidding themselves. Next year though there will be pressure to drive on.
Your a Tipp football fan also judging from your past comments. Creedon has done poorly also this year. We failed to get out of div 4 and we are out of the championship after 2 defeats, one of which was an abysmal showing down in Kerry. A very contrasting year to last year when he turned our fortunes around and got us to within one game of a quarter final. Now we could say its time for him to go or we could give him time and have patience and faith that he is putting his mark on the panel and that isnt an instant process0 -
the player wrote: »Its hard to beleive that Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Wexford, Kilkenny, Galway, thats eight counties; are still standing, and Tipperary are gone. Four Munster counties remain, we were number one for the last two years; now we are actually fifth ranked in Munster terms, as Kerry dont compete.
All the major teams are still standing, bar us. When you look at it that way, it puts the year in perspective.
When you consider three years ago we were number one in the country, its some fall from grace.
Sorry but your logic is crazy here. If Man U are drawn against Chelsea in an fa cup early round, it doesn't mean that just cos one looses, they're "ranked" lower that the other teams remaining in the competition.
To be fair, you gan argue either way that we're better or worse than last year. I don't feel we're too different either way.
What's for sure, is that the others like limerick and cork have improved and narrowed the gap.
We were incredibly unlucky to have drawn the cats away in the qualifiers. We'd have easily beaten any of the others left in the competition.
I believe we're still the 2nd best team in the country. The trouble is that most of the others don't fear us like they would kk. We're capable of loosing to any team any given Sunday unfortunately.
I hope the dubs win it out but I fear the cats will improve as the season progresses.0 -
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Tipp Gunner, I have supported Tipp hurlers and footballers for many years and I would not be too happy with Peter Creedon's performance this year either. I don't see what the footballers' poor year has to do with the hurlers' performance. IMO both were very disappointing. I have never suggested the either manager should be replaced. but still feel that Eamonn O'Shea got off on the wrong foot by appointing Shane McGrath as captain and sticking too much to the 2010 panel. Hopefully, both teams will be a lot better next year and I am confident that they will.0
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Davin Stand wrote: »Tipp Gunner, I have supported Tipp hurlers and footballers for many years and I would not be too happy with Peter Creedon's performance this year either. I don't see what the footballers' poor year has to do with the hurlers' performance. IMO both were very disappointing. I have never suggested the either manager should be replaced. but still feel that Eamonn O'Shea got off on the wrong foot by appointing Shane McGrath as captain and sticking too much to the 2010 panel. Hopefully, both teams will be a lot better next year and I am confident that they will.
Im not accusing you of anything but my point is that with the benefit of hindsight it is perhaps too easy to criticise decisions. I kept an open mind to Mcgrath as captain but sadly it just didnt work out. Ive no doubt O'Shea and Creedon will have learned alot from this year and both codes will be stronger going forward.0 -
Well its not as crazy a logic as you think. Heres the Tipp record in the championship this year. Played 2 won 0. Heres the record in the last three competitive matches played.Played 3 won 0.
Heres the record for league and championship. Played. 8. won 3 lost five. .
Of the big 5 in munster, four remained in contention up to sat night. Thats the cold hard facts of our season.0 -
Great post Tipp Gunner. I suppose we should remember that Jimmy Barry Murphy took four years to get it right with cork, last time. I dont think Cody was an instant success in his first term.(could be wrong there). It takes time, Sheedy needed a few years too. We need to build a more lasting Dynasty. We seem to be unable to build on our success, over the last few decades.
One All-Ireland every ten years is the way its heading again.
Also Kilkenny are constantly evolving, changing a few every year. I was reading one of the rugby writers, and he said transition is a sign of bad management, holding onto players too long.
I suppose O'Shea had to go with the tried and trusted. The dilemma he faced was simple enough. We dont have a large pool of players ready to come in. Lots of raw talent, he felt they would need more time.
On the plus side he unearthed Kieran Bergin, and 'Bubblels is getting game time. He is still the man to steer the ship, his job this year was about getting some credibility back, after last years comedy show in Croker. He has done that.0 -
the player wrote: »Great post Tipp Gunner. I suppose we should remember that Jimmy Barry Murphy took four years to get it right with cork, last time. I dont think Cody was an instant success in his first term.(could be wrong there). It takes time, Sheedy needed a few years too. We need to build a more lasting Dynasty. We seem to be unable to build on our success, over the last few decades.
One All-Ireland every ten years is the way its heading again.
Also Kilkenny are constantly evolving, changing a few every year. I was reading one of the rugby writers, and he said transition is a sign of bad management, holding onto players too long.
I suppose O'Shea had to go with the tried and trusted. The dilemma he faced was simple enough. We dont have a large pool of players ready to come in. Lots of raw talent, he felt they would need more time.
On the plus side he unearthed Kieran Bergin, and 'Bubblels is getting game time. He is still the man to steer the ship, his job this year was about getting some credibility back, after last years comedy show in Croker. He has done that.
Cody lost in 99 to a young Cork team. He had inherited a panel from the Kevin Fennelly and Nicky Brennan era's so it took him time to put his stamp on the matters. They won in 00 but had a huge drawback in 2001 against Galway and then from 02, a golden generation emerged from minor and u21 winning teams.
Nicky English inherited a team that left an All Ireland behind them in 1997 only to go out on his first attempt v Waterford in 1998. 1999 after coming very close to beating Clare who were saved by Davy's frying pan the last poc of the ball (Clare had developed a stranglehold over us in the 90s similar to Kilkenny's current stranglehold) we got hammered down in Pairc Uí Chaoimh the following week in the replay. 2000, we left the Munster final behind us after finally ending Clare's hoodoo over us and then lost to Galway. 2001 we finally came good but rode our luck along the way (Wexford and the final v Galway) and the following year we regressed. People often laud Nicky English and while he is a super shrewd man he has made errors too.
The big reason for optimism in this day and age has been the fact we have won 3 minors and an u21 and contested 2 other u21 finals since 2006. We have also won an Intermediate last year. We were gong dry on the roll of honour up to then. The key will be in keeping underage teams contesting for the next few years in order to keep a good flow of players.0 -
the player wrote: »Well its not as crazy a logic as you think. Heres the Tipp record in the championship this year. Played 2 won 0. Heres the record in the last three competitive matches played.Played 3 won 0.
Heres the record for league and championship. Played. 8. won 3 lost five. .
Of the big 5 in munster, four remained in contention up to sat night. Thats the cold hard facts of our season.
Oh I agree with this post. I'm as dissappointed as you are that we're done for the year. However as for any county the draw in the qualifiers dictates their season. Look at the Galway footballers. They were destroyed by mayo and drew us and Waterford-who they barely scraped past. Are they a higher ranked team this year compared to last year because they beat 2 of the weakest teams in the championship? I don't think so. In fact they're pretty brutal but were steeped with the draw they got.
We were unlucky with he draw. We're not the 8th best team in the country just because we lost to the greatest team of the last decade last week.0 -
Oh I agree with this post. I'm as dissappointed as you are that we're done for the year. However as for any county the draw in the qualifiers dictates their season. Look at the Galway footballers. They were destroyed by mayo and drew us and Waterford-who they barely scraped past. Are they a higher ranked team this year compared to last year because they beat 2 of the weakest teams in the championship? I don't think so. In fact they're pretty brutal but were steeped with the draw they got.
We were unlucky with he draw. We're not the 8th best team in the country just because we lost to the greatest team of the last decade last week.
At the end of the day the ranking system, be it unofficial amongst media and fans alike, is a very flawed way of establishing where your team is at. Really there is basically number 1- normally Kilkenny - who reign supreme in September, and then there is everyone else. There is a poc of the ball between almost every team this year in reality though. Clare might have beat Waterford by a considerable margin and Cork done same to Clare, Dublin likewise to Galway but the result could easily be flipped on its head if either match-ups were to take place in the not too distant future again. I think its a more sore point to lose in Sept then July to be honest. In Sept there could be alot of regrets, if's, buts and maybes whereas July there is an acceptance that in the given year, your team just weren't up to it for whatever reason0 -
Your right we are not that bad. Theres no actual way of rating teams who are eliminated early. (especially the ones who lose to Kilkenny).
Thanks Tipp Gunner also for the usual great perspective on things. I am of to Wexford/Clare/Waterford /KK.
I suppose was just feeling a bit pessimistic, (hard to watch three of these four teams, when we should be there.
Its hard to watch KK all the time, still will grin and bear it.
The other gripe I have is surely the qualifiers must have some sort of seeding system.
Maybe the teams should be rated on past performance. You then get rewarded for what you have done, rather then what amounts to a lucky dip.
I am all for give everyone a chance, but the championship is diminished when one of the top teams goes out early. you know the system need tweaking, when the number one, and two teams of the past few years, have to go head to head. Wexford who have done nothing in the last few years, got to play Carlow? Hard to see the logic of that.0 -
the flip side to that i suppose would be that the so called superior counties are already being giving a 2nd chance with the qualifiers and im sure if you asked carlow or the other so called weaker counties they would rather not have it seeded as they would think they would have a better chance against the likes of wexford rather than the likes of tipp or kk:)0
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Cashel KC in the relegation final after 7 point defeat to Moneygall tonight. Golden and Boherlahan will have to fight it out next week after drawing the other semi.
Cashel KC, once a force in Tipperary hurling with the Bonnars and Raymie Ryan are staring down the barrel of being demoted to the Intermediate ranks. What's been the big factor behind their decline? Emigration? Not producing enough quality? perhaps both?
Dylan Fitzelle aside they have little to shout about in the future.0
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