The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2013

daniels.ducks

Davin Stand wrote: »

He certainly has more to offer, IMO, than his brother.

I think the two of them will have a lot more to offer in the big ball. As for hurling i'm not sure.

daniels.ducks

daniels.ducks wrote: »

I think the two of them will have a lot more to offer in the big ball. As for hurling i'm not sure.

I rate Niall tbh because as well as being a good hurler, he never gives up. He battled to the end. The knock he took had an effect on his performance last night I felt.

kilnamanagh

Annacarthy won the West final 4.17 to 1.17, delighted to see them win it as they stopped the Clonoulty 7 in a row! Enjoyable game that saw Eire Og really put it up to Clonoulty and I thought that Brian, Kevin and Tom Fox were all superb, they were all over the place and hurled a world of ball. For a small club they really do very well at both senior football and hurling.

Clonoulty were lacking in the forwards and caught out defensively at times, it should be very interesting to see how they take this defeat and move on, they have been Kings in the West for so long that many of their players know nothing other than winning it out.

Hopefully the Mid final will be a cracker tomorrow evening.

tippspur

Great to see someone different win the West at long last,it was a shock result but well done to Annacarty

kilnamanagh

kilnamanagh wrote: »

Annacarthy won the West final 4.17 to 1.17, delighted to see them win it as they stopped the Clonoulty 7 in a row! Enjoyable game that saw Eire Og really put it up to Clonoulty and I thought that Brian, Kevin and Tom Fox were all superb, they were all over the place and hurled a world of ball. For a small club they really do very well at both senior football and hurling.

Clonoulty were lacking in the forwards and caught out defensively at times, it should be very interesting to see how they take this defeat and move on, they have been Kings in the West for so long that many of their players know nothing other than winning it out.

Hopefully the Mid final will be a cracker tomorrow evening.

Thanks for the update.

Sadly as one West team makes huge progress, another will fall on the relegation sword as Boherlahan beat Golden in the replay the other night so therefore its a shootout between Cashel KC and Golden Kilfeacle to determine who will survive and who will take the plunge to the intermediate ranks for 2014.

High scoring game between Borrisilleagh and Burgess this evening with Borrisilleagh winning by 4 points (1-25 to 4-12)

kilnamanagh

Disappointing to see that there will be a team gone from the West next year, the relegation match was always going to be a tough one but between those two clubs in particular it will be a real battle, very hard to call it I think.

Am I wrong in saying that Nenagh, Borris, Roscrea and the winners of Toomevara/Kenyons will be in the draw against Silvermines, Clonoulty, Carrick and the losers of Drom/Loughmore?

ormond lad

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the update.

Sadly as one West team makes huge progress, another will fall on the relegation sword as Boherlahan beat Golden in the replay the other night so therefore its a shootout between Cashel KC and Golden Kilfeacle to determine who will survive and who will take the plunge to the intermediate ranks for 2014.

High scoring game between Borrisilleagh and Burgess this evening with Borrisilleagh winning by 4 points (1-25 to 4-12)

Borrisoleigh and Burgess was a high scoring game but not great standard. Brendan Maher and Conor Kenny were very good for Borrisoleigh and really stood out in a poor game

evolving tipperary

I think Tipp are in serious trouble now...The senior panel has obviously been traumatized by all the Kilkenny beatings throughout the years. Our best players were the new players, for example the two Killenaule men. Do our backs lose motivation now due to the performance of the forwards - Could we fault an inter county senior for thinking - Whatever we do at the back we don't have the forwards to go anywhere, why am I making all these sacrifices?

The Clare under 21s, were in reality, in terms of hurling ten points a better team on the night. Yet, the four points we lost by could made been made up by the goalkeeping mistakes for the goal and a weak puck out. Hogan talked before hand about the Clare defensive style and the need for patience - he seemed to be making all the right noises. Yet, there was no discernible plan in the game. Was it solely down to the players? Did a bunch of players who had never won an inter-county medal just not believe? Whereas Clare have all the believe from the amount they have won? The Clare selector in the prematch interview had a smile on his face as he said we believe we have a plan that will win today. Totally confident. The young Tipp minors who won last year have now been exposed to his kind of self doubt - just as Bubbles and the younger men on our senior team have been exposed. The great Under 21 team players of 2010 now look full of self-doubt...particularly in the forwards.

I don't believe all the hype about this Clare bunch of youngsters. I think they have still a long way to go to make it at senior. I can't see them beating Limerick. They know their weaknesses - fair play to them - and plan accordingly - their lightness and defensive frailties - hence why they play a sweeper system. Then utilize fast runners going deep and then driving runners into the wings from short passing. Its a distinctive pattern of play which can be figured out. Tipp didn't cope. The Clare players - not one of them scored more than 2 points from play - missed plenty of chances. Duggan won lots of possession but I'll doubt he'll make it at senior - great hands, no pace and will not have such a strength advantage at senior. He reminds me of Darragh Egan at that age. Their full back is decent but makes mistakes and is there to be exposed hence why Clare, at senior, play a player in front of him. Forde destroyed him when he went in full forward - when will Tipp learn to play their most dangerous players as close to goal as possible - forde is just decoration at wing forward - like wise Bubbles in the limerick senior game after scoring 1-3 is moved out to wing forward - madness. What about a full forward line of Bubbles, Forde, and Lar next year? That's a full line with goals in it - whether it has the belief or not is something that will only be found out when tried - and of course we need a half forward line to supply bullets...

picking the right team is essential. Ken Hogan has always been weak at that. His substitutions were terrible also. We only improved after he took off McCormack and Walsh - who both never worked hard on that night - seemed overcome by the occassion- never got into it - his decisions to take off Stapleton and Heffernan was horrendous. These latter two players were at least working hard. While being beaten by their men, at least they were working, unlike McCormack and Walsh.

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

I think Tipp are in serious trouble now...The senior panel has obviously been traumatized by all the Kilkenny beatings throughout the years. Our best players were the new players, for example the two Killenaule men. Do our backs lose motivation now due to the performance of the forwards - Could we fault an inter county senior for thinking - Whatever we do at the back we don't have the forwards to go anywhere, why am I making all these sacrifices?

The Clare under 21s, were in reality, in terms of hurling ten points a better team on the night. Yet, the four points we lost by could made been made up by the goalkeeping mistakes for the goal and a weak puck out. Hogan talked before hand about the Clare defensive style and the need for patience - he seemed to be making all the right noises. Yet, there was no discernible plan in the game. Was it solely down to the players? Did a bunch of players who had never won an inter-county medal just not believe? Whereas Clare have all the believe from the amount they have won? The Clare selector in the prematch interview had a smile on his face as he said we believe we have a plan that will win today. Totally confident. The young Tipp minors who won last year have now been exposed to his kind of self doubt - just as Bubbles and the younger men on our senior team have been exposed. The great Under 21 team players of 2010 now look full of self-doubt...particularly in the forwards.

I don't believe all the hype about this Clare bunch of youngsters. I think they have still a long way to go to make it at senior. I can't see them beating Limerick. They know their weaknesses - fair play to them - and plan accordingly - their lightness and defensive frailties - hence why they play a sweeper system. Then utilize fast runners going deep and then driving runners into the wings from short passing. Its a distinctive pattern of play which can be figured out. Tipp didn't cope. The Clare players - not one of them scored more than 2 points from play - missed plenty of chances. Duggan won lots of possession but I'll doubt he'll make it at senior - great hands, no pace and will not have such a strength advantage at senior. He reminds me of Darragh Egan at that age. Their full back is decent but makes mistakes and is there to be exposed hence why Clare, at senior, play a player in front of him. Forde destroyed him when he went in full forward - when will Tipp learn to play their most dangerous players as close to goal as possible - forde is just decoration at wing forward - like wise Bubbles in the limerick senior game after scoring 1-3 is moved out to wing forward - madness. What about a full forward line of Bubbles, Forde, and Lar next year? That's a full line with goals in it - whether it has the belief or not is something that will only be found out when tried - and of course we need a half forward line to supply bullets...

picking the right team is essential. Ken Hogan has always been weak at that. His substitutions were terrible also. We only improved after he took off McCormack and Walsh - who both never worked hard on that night - seemed overcome by the occassion- never got into it - his decisions to take off Stapleton and Heffernan was horrendous. These latter two players were at least working hard. While being beaten by their men, at least they were working, unlike McCormack and Walsh.

Cant say i disagree with any of your post but one or two things, i thought Cahill's replacement rather than Stapleton was a horrendous error. Stapleton was trying but i just think he was being skinned but he might have been served better if positional switches were made and moved to the 40 as he has a good paw on him - Hogan didnt even do this.

Clare are a very good side but going forward nothing suggests to me that they cant be beaten. They havent that air of invincibility about them like Kilkenny have for example. They are decent and lovely to watch but can be combatted.

As for the psychological damage done to Tipperary, I refuse to believe we're a lost cause. Yes the last 3 years have been incredibly frustrating but we have the personnel. We need to rediscover our mojo. Denis Byrne said he found little difference in terms of ability between the Tipperary and Kilkenny camps barring the fact that Kilkenny would be sore as bunions after defeat whereas he found alot of the Tipp panel were a little too accepting of it. Denis himself is a very dedicated hurling man and a serious trainer. He would often be training an hour before the rest of his teammates in Graigue/Ballycallan. Look at Dublin for example or Cork, who would have them paired in the semi final today? Or next's pairing either? Alot can happen in twelve months so keep the faith. I do think though O'Shea needs to send a message and reward hard working players and get shot of the Fancy Dan's.

Not such a shock in the mid final with Drom/Inch winning 3-20 to Loughmore/Castleineys 1-11

So champions that enter the quarter finals are Kildangan, Drom/Inch, Killenaule and Annacarthy Eire Og while Loughmore/Castleiney, Carrick Swan, Silvermines and Clonoulty will enter round 4.

When will the draw for Round 4 be made?

ormond lad

ormond lad wrote: »

Borrisoleigh and Burgess was a high scoring game but not great standard. Brendan Maher and Conor Kenny were very good for Borrisoleigh and really stood out in a poor game

The big thing in Tipp club hurling is that its far too loose when compared to other championships which are tight, physical and intense affairs.

Alpha Dog 1

Am I right in thinking that cashel and golden will be both intermediate next season?

ReacherCreature

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Our best players were the new players, for example the two Killenaule men. Do our backs lose motivation now due to the performance of the forwards - Could we fault an inter county senior for thinking - Whatever we do at the back we don't have the forwards to go anywhere, why am I making all these sacrifices?

Are you talking senior hurlers? I thought Michael Cahill was excellent this year. Brendan Maher was very good too.

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that cashel and golden will be both intermediate next season?

I'm not sure but according to tipp_Gunner, they've to contest a relegation battle.

ReacherCreature

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Are you talking senior hurlers? I thought Michael Cahill was excellent this year. Brendan Maher was very good too.



I'm not sure but according to tipp_Gunner, they've to contest a relegation battle.

Your right on the relegation battle. ET wasnt saying the backs were poor but that they might become disillusioned with the fact that the forwards are nullifying their own efforts as backs with their inability to win the deliveries they give up the pitch to them.

Davin Stand

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that cashel and golden will be both intermediate next season?

No. Only one of them. Whoever loses the relegation final goes down to Intermediate.

ReacherCreature

Deleted User wrote: »

Your right on the relegation battle. ET wasnt saying the backs were poor but that they might become disillusioned with the fact that the forwards are nullifying their own efforts as backs with their inability to win the deliveries they give up the pitch to them.

Ah makes sense now. For much of the year we were fairly solid from 1-8 but 9-15 was shaky.

Alpha Dog 1

Davin Stand wrote: »

No. Only one of them. Whoever loses the relegation final goes down to Intermediate.

Is it next year that two will be relegated?

Alpha Dog 1

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Is it next year that two will be relegated?

I think the clubs could only agree on narrowing it down to 28 over the next few years so i think your right it will be minus 1 per year from 2014 to 2018

evolving tipperary

I agree - Cahill and Brendan - were probably our best players all year - O'Mahony class - but I'd expect that leadership from him as he is what 28? Mickey and Brendan are what 23/24? But are both natural leaders....I just worry that if they lose faith in teh forwards it might affect their game - but i think both players take nothing other than winning - they only play that way - we just need forwards like them - sadly Eoin's time is up - probably went that year too long - we need a Ryan O'Dywer type player (but that's more intelligent and does not lose the head) - David Collins should be looked at again and Niall O'Meara (hopefully he'll bulk up a bit more)

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

I agree - Cahill and Brendan - were probably our best players all year - O'Mahony class - but I'd expect that leadership from him as he is what 28? Mickey and Brendan are what 23/24? But are both natural leaders....I just worry that if they lose faith in teh forwards it might affect their game - but i think both players take nothing other than winning - they only play that way - we just need forwards like them - sadly Eoin's time is up - probably went that year too long - we need a Ryan O'Dywer type player (but that's more intelligent and does not lose the head) - David Collins should be looked at again and Niall O'Meara (hopefully he'll bulk up a bit more)

Niall undoubtedly will be given a gym program and will bulk up more. Bonnar joined the army this year which might mean he is doubling on his training regime between them and Tipp, but he will get back to form. David Collins i would definately agree with you. Now he probably would have been picked only i think he went on a J1 to the US ( i could be wrong).

John Meagher and Colm O'Riordan will probably come into contention which is a great prospect. Make no mistake there is great personnel going forward. Not one All ireland hurling medal apart from Tom Kenny on the two sides today and yet they served up a classic. Cork are now 70 mins away from being All Ireland champions so this weeks result isnt the be all and end all. Ideally it would have been nice to win it but the fact we didnt might ground us that small bit

ReacherCreature

I was looking at Ryan O' Dwyer and Conal Keaney today, they're very good in the air and multiple times they snatched a ball out of the sky. Wish we saw more of that from our forwards this year.

The two teams today were brilliant. Even if we got to this stage we'd have a very tough time against them or Limerick/Clare. Any team in the country would!

Red Crow

I don't think we're in that bad of a state. We will need to find a couple of players but generally we're ok. I think a lot of our good play in the past 2-4 years has been when Kelly was on top form. With Lar as a solid goal threat and Kelly being absolutely class we had lots of space in the forward third to work with. We had solid young, hungry lads dying to get into a side that was in great form. We were quick and had good movement in the forwards. In the last 18 months we've lost all of that. Kelly is finished as a première hurler, Lar's hurling career is closing in and the young forwards that were making a mark in the side have secured places and just don't have the same impact on the side particularly Noel McGrath.

Also I think we have a solid back line to build on and Brenan Maher is a solid midfielder. Bonnar and Bubbles are the two current senior forwards that we should be focusing on. Hopefully Jason Forde can have some impact next year too. Bergin could be a solution in midfield for 1-2 years too.

Over the next 2-3 years we need to find a GK, Full Back, Midfielder and 2-3 forwards. I know that seems daunting but despite his height Saint was excellent against the Cats so he could be our FB moving forward. My big worry is the forwards hopefully Noel McGrath can kick rediscover some form next year and hopefully 1-2 forwards can be plucked form the under-21's this year.

Eli Manning

Eli Manning wrote: »

I don't think we're in that bad of a state. We will need to find a couple of players but generally we're ok. I think a lot of our good play in the past 2-4 years has been when Kelly was on top form. With Lar as a solid goal threat and Kelly being absolutely class we had lots of space in the forward third to work with. We had solid young, hungry lads dying to get into a side that was in great form. We were quick and had good movement in the forwards. In the last 18 months we've lost all of that. Kelly is finished as a première hurler, Lar's hurling career is closing in and the young forwards that were making a mark in the side have secured places and just don't have the same impact on the side particularly Noel McGrath.

Also I think we have a solid back line to build on and Brenan Maher is a solid midfielder. Bonnar and Bubbles are the two current senior forwards that we should be focusing on. Hopefully Jason Forde can have some impact next year too. Bergin could be a solution in midfield for 1-2 years too.

Over the next 2-3 years we need to find a GK, Full Back, Midfielder and 2-3 forwards. I know that seems daunting but despite his height Saint was excellent against the Cats so he could be our FB moving forward. My big worry is the forwards hopefully Noel McGrath can kick rediscover some form next year and hopefully 1-2 forwards can be plucked form the under-21's this year.

He is always an option there but id prefer to blood Andy Ryan or Michael Breen there for next year.

the player

The senior championship is a joke lads. How many teams are of senior standard. I went to Roscrea V Cashel and Roscrea won by a cricket score. Bearing in mind Roscrea are hardly even second tier, Cashel were dreadful. If you were being honest, half the teams are intermediate at best. You would struggle to get a decent ten teams out of it. It needs surgery, relegating one or two teams achieves what exactly. The gap in standards is scary. Borrisleigh beat Roscrea by ten points, to illustrate the different levels within a single competition.
We have to leave local loyalties aside here. I am from Templemore and JK Brackens are not good to be in the senior competition. If we are serious about hurling at the top level, we need to do something drastic. Also u-21 success is no big deal. Limerick had a patent on it and won nothing at senior. Cork have had very little under-age success, yet they are in an All-Ireland final. We won in 2010 with the team of all the talents. How many have made a serious impact at senior level? P.Maher, B.maher, have been outstanding, but many have clearly failed. The Bonnar has gone backwards, Buggy looks out of his depth. Clare are getting carried away with the whole U-21 picture. Young players suffer defeats in big matches at senior level and confidence drains. Look at our younger players, they are infected with self doubt. Inside three years we have forgotten how to hurl. We are miles behind the level at Croke Park today.

Alpha Dog 1

The average winning margin of the divisional finals was 12 points!
Says it all really!

I think 16 senior teams would be plenty.

Davin Stand

Why do people think that we would have a better county team if we only had 16 Senior teams and the other 16 teams were relegated to Intermediate. The same players would still be playing and no matter how one sided this year's mid final was Drom and Loughmore would both be senior clubs.

the player

the player wrote: »

The senior championship is a joke lads. How many teams are of senior standard. I went to Roscrea V Cashel and Roscrea won by a cricket score. Bearing in mind Roscrea are hardly even second tier, Cashel were dreadful. If you were being honest, half the teams are intermediate at best. You would struggle to get a decent ten teams out of it. It needs surgery, relegating one or two teams achieves what exactly. The gap in standards is scary. Borrisleigh beat Roscrea by ten points, to illustrate the different levels within a single competition.
We have to leave local loyalties aside here. I am from Templemore and JK Brackens are not good to be in the senior competition. If we are serious about hurling at the top level, we need to do something drastic. Also u-21 success is no big deal. Limerick had a patent on it and won nothing at senior. Cork have had very little under-age success, yet they are in an All-Ireland final. We won in 2010 with the team of all the talents. How many have made a serious impact at senior level? P.Maher, B.maher, have been outstanding, but many have clearly failed. The Bonnar has gone backwards, Buggy looks out of his depth. Clare are getting carried away with the whole U-21 picture. Young players suffer defeats in big matches at senior level and confidence drains. Look at our younger players, they are infected with self doubt. Inside three years we have forgotten how to hurl. We are miles behind the level at Croke Park today.

Conor Gleeson aged 40, scored 4 points against Golden there on Friday night. Nothing against Gleeson, good hurler for Tipperary he was and well done to him and all but at Senior level a 40 year old having that type of scoring ability in a game says more about Golden then Conor imho.

Davin Stand wrote: »

Why do people think that we would have a better county team if we only had 16 Senior teams and the other 16 teams were relegated to Intermediate. The same players would still be playing and no matter how one sided this year's mid final was Drom and Loughmore would both be senior clubs.

Your right there would be no guarantee of success and it may have little correlation when you look at the likes of Galway for example, but taking senior club hurling in Tipperary as an individual product, the competition still needs surgery because the fundamental thing here is that attendances are falling.

Lets be fair the recession and emigration has had some impact, but the extension a few years ago was crazy and it was done to appease certain clubs without any thought given to the fact that the quality of hurling might suffer.

We have had a few good county finals the last few years and some good semi finals but we have to be realistic about having a championship containing 32 teams. I would say that perhaps a tier exists between Senior and Intermediate and hopefully 2014 might bring some balance to the championship with the weaker teams finding it more difficult to get to the latter stages. Make no mistake about it its up to them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Everything is cyclical but some clubs need to take a good long hard look at themselves more often and ask themselves if they are truly utilising themselves to the fullest? would they prefer to be a competitive intermediate club or a poor senior or can they find and extra 10% to improve their performances?

The one thing that strikes me about Tipp club hurling is the looseness of play and thats even the better clubs like Sars last year. Now I wouldnt single us out in that regard and we dont want wall to wall mullocking to be fair but i think our clubs need an injection of intensity and toughness in order to compete at All Ireland level. The fact is, we're being bullied out of games by teams who are used to dogfights such as Kilcormac/Killoughy of Offaly were last year

buggy beag

whens the last time a team from tipp has won the all ireland club?and have we had many winners overall does anyone know?

ReacherCreature

Gave it a Google there. Taking this from Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ireland_Senior_Club_Hurling_Championship#By_county)

Tipperary clubs have won it three times (good for fifth best in the country) and Borris-ileigh were our last winners who won it in 1986-87.

buggy beag

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Gave it a Google there. Taking this from Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ireland_Senior_Club_Hurling_Championship#By_county)

Tipperary clubs have won it three times (good for fifth best in the country) and Borris-ileigh were our last winners who won it in 1986-87.

cheers lad.for a team with 26 senior titles we really do have a woeful club record at senior national level dont we.any ideas why this is?even more baffling is galway for all they won at underage level and the success and quality of their clubs they dont do it at senior intercounty the exact opposite of us,gas how the way of the world is:P