The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2013

igorbiscan

Just on Noel McGrath who is still very young,has he being playing an awful lot since he emerged as the next big thing at 17-18?.Does it seem he needs a good break to re-discover his appetite/love of the game. Not knocking the lads effort,he just seems to have lost a bit of his edge..Think some of the younger guys coming through who have club,college,u21's, seniors to contend with all at once have a serious risk of burnout and its unfair to expect so much from them all the time..

igorbiscan

igorbiscan wrote: »

Just on Noel McGrath who is still very young,has he being playing an awful lot since he emerged as the next big thing at 17-18?.Does it seem he needs a good break to re-discover his appetite/love of the game. Not knocking the lads effort,he just seems to have lost a bit of his edge..Think some of the younger guys coming through who have club,college,u21's, seniors to contend with all at once have a serious risk of burnout and its unfair to expect so much from them all the time..

My fear is that it could be burn out with Noel. In 2011 for example, he played hurling and football for Loughmore at both senior and u21 level as well as senior and u21 hurling for Tipp and Fitzgibbon cup hurling for LIT. Sooner or later it was bound to take effect on him. 2012 he was a shadow of the player he was but 2013 there was a slight resurgence in his game.

I think he can still play a big part in Tipperary's future and was impressed with one or two things he done from midfield this year. Barring Lar's hat trick i think Noel would have been awarded the motm back in 2010 as no doubt about it he pulled an awful lot of strings that day. I think perhaps Noel needs stiff competition for his place on the team and there is even the potential of his own brother offering him this among a few others in the future so that can only be a good thing.

On the other hand, time may have ran out on the intercounty careers of Seamie Callanan and Pa Bourke. Both have been there years and while Noel might improve, i dont think either of these have much more to offer. Noel proved he can cope in a physical encounter but neither of Pa or Callanan warrant any confidence.

the player

No disrespect to the 40yr old hurler, but surely thats the problem. A lot of teams have one or two star players and then some ordinary players, and sadly some to make up the numbers. Thats Ok in Junior hurling and maybe even intermediate, but senior is supposed to be the top level. If you look at all sports, there is an elite level, there has to be whether we like it or not. Attendances are falling because, most of the games are no contests. The looseness which the Tipp Gunner alluded to is there because, of the sheer imbalance in personnel. On one hand you have an inter-county star and on the other a guy who is not even up to senior inter-county standard.The mantra of these senior clubs seems to be, put out a team and retain senior status, full stop. Dylan Fitzelle of Cashel is a classic example of the disparity in ability, within the average senior club set up. Most of the match ups on the field of play between the lower tier and the better teams, beggar belief.
Most clubs know they are not of senior standard, but why take a drop down when you have a free pass to the top level. What makes the whole set up even more of a joke, is the fact that one of the best senior clubs in the country nearly got relegated. They are obsessed with relegation play offs, while missing the point totally.
Its the overall numbers that need addressing, there are far too many teams of sub-standard.
There is no competition anymore, as half the games are meaningless one sided affairs. Whats really worrying is the fact that the divisional finals are starting to be affected as well.The North final was a non event, ditto the mid. Clonoulty were heading for seven in a row in one division?
I feel that our senior model has failed at club level. Standards are falling rapidly, and something more urgent that a lone relegation battle is required. I am sorry to keep banging on about this esteemed forum members, whom I know wont enjoy or agree with this post.

evolving tipperary

If the weak were culled we'd get tougher and better senior games - higher standard - faster pace - players can only get sharper and better - needs to happen fast - we it would actually make intermediate more competitive as well - if some of the senior clubs were dropped - clubs like brackens - boherlahan - lorrha - cashel - burgess - roscrea are at nothing at the moment - neither here nor there

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

If the weak were culled we'd get tougher and better senior games - higher standard - faster pace - players can only get sharper and better - needs to happen fast - we it would actually make intermediate more competitive as well - if some of the senior clubs were dropped - clubs like brackens - boherlahan - lorrha - cashel - burgess - roscrea are at nothing at the moment - neither here nor there

I'd agree. I think perhaps they should look at creating 5 or 6 tiers (or grades).

I may be open to correction here but here is the breakdown of clubs

32 at Senior,
22 at Intermediate (for 19 clubs its the highest level they hurl at + Sars, Holycross and Drom 2nd teams),
30 at Junior A (for 9 clubs this is the highest level they hurl at)
27 at Junior B (for 7 clubs this is the highest level they hurl at).

So we have 67 hurling clubs hurling at 4 different grades and just under half of these are Senior which is a ludicrous situation.

In total there is 111 teams (many clubs with multiple teams across the board) so 111 divide by 5 is average of 22 teams per grade and by 6 is 19 teams average per grade. Thats probably what we should be aiming in or around and where teams are depleted by emigration or other issues that may arise they should look to form mergers. Given the amateur nature of the game its not easy.

looder

evolving tipperary wrote: »

If the weak were culled we'd get tougher and better senior games - higher standard - faster pace - players can only get sharper and better - needs to happen fast - we it would actually make intermediate more competitive as well - if some of the senior clubs were dropped - clubs like brackens - boherlahan - lorrha - cashel - burgess - roscrea are at nothing at the moment - neither here nor there

Roscrea are in the last 12 of the county on merit. A bit harsh to be relegating them at the stroke of a keyboard...

The club situation in Tipp has been discussed to death over the years. In my opinion any Senior club should be relegated on the field of play and not in the Board room.


The Co Board wanted to introduce a system that would finally change the imbalance at Senior level from next year onwards but it was changed from 4 Senior teams relegated to 2. It'll bring down the number and should raise the standard but it'll take time to get rid of the deadwood.

RE the Divisional Championships. The South Final was a very high standard this year, especially if you compare it to the last 2 years.

Swan vs Ballingarry in the Semi Final was the game of the year.

Sars been knocked out of the Co Championship and beating teams with their Intermediate team in the Seamus O' Riain really shows how poor some teams are in the County.

From Tipperary gaa site

http://tipperary.gaa.ie/latestnews/cleanirelandrecyclingtipperaryseniorhurlingchampionshipround4draw

Clean Ireland Recycling Tipperary Senior Hurling Championship Round 4 Draw & Fixtures
Nenagh Eire Og v Silvermines on Saturday August 24th at 6pm in Cloughjordan
Roscrea v Loughmore-Castleiney on Saturday August 24th at 6pm in Templemore
Borris-Ileigh v Carrick Swan on Saturday September 7th at 2:30pm in Holycross
Toomevara V Clonoulty Rossmore on Saturday September 7th at 4:30pm in Holycross

Toome came through last night after beating Kenyons by a point in extra time. 0-24 to 2-17

evolving tipperary

I didn't relegate Roscrea...I said they are at nothing - last twelve...a kind draw...Roscrea will not beat Loughmore...and Loughmore are poor this year...and even if they did...Loughmore are in free fall this year...Roscrea are by far the worst team left in it...need I say more than this result: Quarter Final

ROSCREA 1-10 V 1-21 BORRIS-ILEIGH

What purpose does this serve? Can you not see that Roscrea are not senior standard? What did Borris learn from that game with Roscrea? Nothing! They got beat by the mines in the semi....and the mines were then hammered in the final....HAMMERED...

Borris are no world beaters!?!?!?

Alpha Dog 1

That's golden relegated then.
Is it next year that 2 teams go down?

Davin Stand

Huge crowd at the relegation final in New Inn last night. Two teams going down next year so we will have 2 relegation matches.

Alpha Dog 1

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

That's golden relegated then.
Is it next year that 2 teams go down?

3-13 to 9 points? :eek: Good god above how many sub-tiers actually lie within in our championship you'd have to wonder?

buggy beag

so lads whos going to win the all ireland?have cork really been tested playing their last two games against 14 men?limerick couldnt counteract clares gameplan but cork did in the munster semi so is it a flip of a coin?personally id like to see a neverending draw as i cant stand davy fitz and i dont want cork to go another one ahead of us:P

buggy beag

buggy beag wrote: »

so lads whos going to win the all ireland?have cork really been tested playing their last two games against 14 men?limerick couldnt counteract clares gameplan but cork did in the munster semi so is it a flip of a coin?personally id like to see a neverending draw as i cant stand davy fitz and i dont want cork to go another one ahead of us:P

Possibility of them sharing it and winning half a one each so - still not good :P

If i was pushed id go for Clare as they are a lovely side to watch but yes i absolutely detest that Davy.
He has a young team and yet some of them act more maturely then he does

the player

I hope Cork win lads. Clare are always begrudging us and going on about loving too beat Tipp.I remember I was like a lot of people who celebrated their win against Offaly. I doubt they would ever do the same. I was reading Gary Kirby the other day and he told a telling insight into the Clare mentality. He met Anthony Daly one night and while he dident really know him, they had a quick word about hurling 'Dalo' was saying wouldent it be great if they (Limerick and Clare) could keep Tipp and Cork from winning the munster every year. Hope Cork stuff that ignorent B****KS. Davy. Go the Rebels!!!

the player

the player wrote: »

I hope Cork win lads. Clare are always begrudging us and going on about loving too beat Tipp.I remember I was like a lot of people who celebrated their win against Offaly. I doubt they would ever do the same. I was reading Gary Kirby the other day and he told a telling insight into the Clare mentality. He met Anthony Daly one night and while he dident really know him, they had a quick word about hurling 'Dalo' was saying wouldent it be great if they (Limerick and Clare) could keep Tipp and Cork from winning the munster every year. Hope Cork stuff that ignorent B****KS. Davy. Go the Rebels!!!

Once them bloody Cats are gone sure whoever like can win it now!! :P

tippspur

the player wrote: »

I hope Cork win lads. Clare are always begrudging us and going on about loving too beat Tipp.I remember I was like a lot of people who celebrated their win against Offaly. I doubt they would ever do the same. I was reading Gary Kirby the other day and he told a telling insight into the Clare mentality. He met Anthony Daly one night and while he dident really know him, they had a quick word about hurling 'Dalo' was saying wouldent it be great if they (Limerick and Clare) could keep Tipp and Cork from winning the munster every year. Hope Cork stuff that ignorent B****KS. Davy. Go the Rebels!!!

I'm with you player.:)

Next year the following teams will play in Roinn A composing of 4 groups of 4 teams with seedings yet to be determined apart from those latter 4 that have just exited the championship who will be in pot 4 or seed 4 if you like. Seed 1 will be the county semi finalists and seed 2 will be the county quarter finalists whereas seed 3 will be those who exit next round.

Annacarthy Clonoulty Borrisilleagh Burgess Drom/Inch Carrick Swan Roscrea Upperchurch Kildangan Loughmore Nenagh Moycarkey Killenaule Silvermines Toomevara Templederry


And these following teams will compose 4 groups of 4 teams in Roinn B. The former 8 are seeds 1 and 2 in no specific order while the latter 8 will be seeds 3 and 4 in no specific order

Ballingarry Boherlahan Cappawhite Borrisokane Holycross Carrick Davins JK Brackens Cashel KC Kilruane Intermediate champions
Knockavilla Lorrha/Dorrha Mullinahone Moneygall Portroe Thurles Sars

Divisional championships played separate and winners will go into preliminary quarters. The group winners in Roinn A and the runners up of Roinn A go through to Preliminary QFs as well as the 4 winners of Roinn B.

Where qualification for any given team through 2 routes occur (division and group) then AFAIK a place will be offered to the next best placed team in the Roinn/group instead. So if for example Sars are in a group with Mullinahone and Sars win the group and win the Mid then the other place in the preliminary QFs will be offered to Mullinahone. This duplicity could also happen to a runner up in Roinn A so in that case the third place team in Roinn A will obtain a place in the preliminary QFs


I hope you can follow and i do appreciate it is confusing

Davin Stand

It is fairly confusing all right and many thanks for explaining it. However I don't understand your reference to a possible Sarsfields/Mullinahone scenario. Certainly Sarsfields should top their section in Roinn B and are well capable of winning the Mid, but would there not be 2 other teams in that possible section as well as Mullinahone. How are Mullinahone given a place in the knock out stages. Should that not go to the 2nd placed team in the section irrespective of who that club is. Reason I ask is that no one seems to know what is going to happen in the football this year to decide who qualifies for knockout section when a club qualifies as Divisional winners and from their section. Intermediate hurling is equally confusing.

Davin Stand

Davin Stand wrote: »

It is fairly confusing all right and many thanks for explaining it. However I don't understand your reference to a possible Sarsfields/Mullinahone scenario. Certainly Sarsfields should top their section in Roinn B and are well capable of winning the Mid, but would there not be 2 other teams in that possible section as well as Mullinahone. How are Mullinahone given a place in the knock out stages. Should that not go to the 2nd placed team in the section irrespective of who that club is. Reason I ask is that no one seems to know what is going to happen in the football this year to decide who qualifies for knockout section when a club qualifies as Divisional winners and from their section. Intermediate hurling is equally confusing.

Firstly i made an error by referring them to Roinn A and B, its actually Roinn I and II so apologies for that not that its a huge detail or anything but to avoid confusion (if possible) its better to clarify

Sarsfield's and Mullinahone are ranked within the bottom 16 Senior teams in the county this year and will participate in the Roinn II competition where there is potential they could be drawn in the same grouping because in terms of rankings with regards to the poorest 16 performers this year, Sars are ranked in the latter 8 places due to their early exit and Mullinahone are ranked in the former half based on the timing of their exit in round 2 this year.

Im not suggesting Sars will come first and Mullinahone 2nd etc as you said there is two other teams but im just trying to give a hypothetical situation.

So if Sars were to win their group next year and then win the Mid they would have two routes into the last 16 but their mid title would take precedence therefore giving the 2nd placed team in their Roinn B group a place in the last 16 of the county championship.

Preliminary QF's =:
4 Divisional Champions Vs : 4 Roinn I Runners-Up
4 Roinn I Winners Vs : 4 Roinn II Winners

That's the 4 divisional winners advancing with 8 from Roinn I and 4 from Roinn II

So basically hypothetically speaking if the group winners of Roinn I are Nenagh, Drom, Annacarthy and Kildangan and each win their respective division then a place in the preliminary qfs will be awarded to the second placed team as group winners and third placed team as group runners up.

Likewise if the Divisional winners also come from the Roinn II winners, then they will advance as divisional champions and the Roinn II winners places will instead be awarded to the second placed team in their group.

Relegation is then contested between the bottom 4 teams of Roinn II with two being relegated out of the 4....which leaves me puzzled as to what happens in the very very rare situation where should a 4th place Roinn II team win their division? Im assuming then perhaps that they would be safe and that the third placed team from their Roinn II group could fall into the relegation finals in their place? Its a major flaw in this competition as it is possible that a team could always pull off a shock and win a knockout competition (divisional title) while being contrastingly s*ite in their group.

Just to clarify, where a team finishes bottom of their Roinn II group BUT wins their division, then they will avoid a relegation playoff altogether. However, that leaves 3 teams in the relegation play offs so how will they decide which 2 teams should relegate from those 3 in that scenario?

It was originally planned that 4 teams (bottom 4 of each roinn ii group) would relegate, but then it was readjusted to 2 due to the awkwardness and delusions of some of the club reps who attended the county convention to vote on the format last January.

kilnamanagh

Thanks for the info gunner I had been asking around the club at home and everyone seemed confused by it, that summed things up nicely. Hopefully it will help out the senior championship next year but we will see, it should be interesting to see how the new Limerick club championship develops next year also.

They are restructuring it so that there will be a new level between senior and intermediate known as premier intermediate which will have knock on effects right across the board for club hurling. Is it a case that many counties will be forced into restructuring their club set ups in the coming years?

Edit: Here is the link outlining the changes to the Limerick system in case anyone is interested. http://www.limerickleader.ie/sport/gaelic-games/limerick-club-hurling-changes-detailed-1-4761851

Here is the Tipp one from the original proposal stage.

It has been edited in the meantime on approval from the delegates at the co convention to adjust it from 32 to 28 teams between 2014 and 2018 as it originally had planned to trim the co championship by 8 teams.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kyyd4f4r6yer4u0/SHC%20Proposal.doc

Regulations attached

kilnamanagh

Cheers! There's a lot of info in there, I didn't realise so much work had gone into it. At the end of the day it is all geared up to strengthen senior hurling in Tipperary by developing a more balanced and competitive championship so I'm hoping it all works out.

In case anyone didn't see the result Tipperary won the New York senior hurling final against Galway. I guess the fact that the Tipp seniors were out of the championship so early and some clubs were knocked out early allowed a few good hurlers the opportunity to hurl over in the Big Apple for a little while at least.

Here's a short report and line up from the final: http://www.irishcentral.com/sport/NY-GAA-report-Tipp-get-title-in-battle-against-Galway-220169771.html

kilnamanagh

kilnamanagh wrote: »

Cheers! There's a lot of info in there, I didn't realise so much work had gone into it. At the end of the day it is all geared up to strengthen senior hurling in Tipperary by developing a more balanced and competitive championship so I'm hoping it all works out.

In case anyone didn't see the result Tipperary won the New York senior hurling final against Galway. I guess the fact that the Tipp seniors were out of the championship so early and some clubs were knocked out early allowed a few good hurlers the opportunity to hurl over in the Big Apple for a little while at least.

Here's a short report and line up from the final: http://www.irishcentral.com/sport/NY-GAA-report-Tipp-get-title-in-battle-against-Galway-220169771.html

Interesting Paul Schutte lined out for Tipp not long after he lined out for Cork against Dublin
Other notable names Padraic Maher, Donagh Maher, Brian O'Meara, John Sheedy and Shane Burke (sic)...Im assuming even though the Burke was misspelt that it was thee Shane that lined out for us this year?

ReacherCreature

Tipperary 1 Craig Harford 2 Donagh Maher 4 Paul Shutte 5 Colm Forde 6 Padraig Maher 7 Francis Kennedy 8 David Tracey 9 Cian Maher 10 John Sheedy 11 Brian O’Meara 12 Shane Burke 13 Paul Loughnane 15 Davie Loughnane Subs Pat Egan, Fintan Maher

That's just overpowered!

What's the story here, did the Tipp hurlers just go over on their own accord? Or were they paid for to fly over? It's a cool opportunity if the latter.

Is that the other way tipp_Gunner? Paul Schutte hurls for Dublin, doesn't he? Or this is a spelling error, they have Paul Shutte on the team list. David Treacy is another one, he's a Dublin forward but could have same name as this Tipperary hurler.

Colm Forde's name is familiar. Has his name been mentioned before on here? Or I'm confusing Jason Forde, Colin O' Riordan and a million other hurlers in my head.

ReacherCreature

ReacherCreature wrote: »

That's just overpowered!

What's the story here, did the Tipp hurlers just go over on their own accord? Or were they paid for to fly over? It's a cool opportunity if the latter.

Is that the other way tipp_Gunner? Paul Schutte hurls for Dublin, doesn't he? Or this is a spelling error, they have Paul Shutte on the team list. David Treacy is another one, he's a Dublin forward but could have same name as this Tipperary hurler.

Colm Forde's name is familiar. Has his name been mentioned before on here? Or I'm confusing Jason Forde, Colin O' Riordan and a million other hurlers in my head.

Its mostly the Tipp and other ex-Pats living in New York though they draw on a few other intercounty hurlers to be fair as well as a few of our senior panel who have probably flew over to work the remainder of the summer. i think officially 'Tipperary' is a club over there as opposed to a ceremonial selection of players.

Paudie Maher for example has no more club involvement as Sars are out and only fielding their intermediate team in the SOR.

Davin Stand

Not strictly correct about Sarsfields playing their Intermediate team in the Seamus O Riain Cup. AFAIK, Mickey Cahill and Pa Bourke played for them last Sunday.

Davin Stand

Davin Stand wrote: »

Not strictly correct about Sarsfields playing their Intermediate team in the Seamus O Riain Cup. AFAIK, Mickey Cahill and Pa Bourke played for them last Sunday.

id imagine give or take one or two though its predominantly their fringe squad which tbf is strong enough too. Will the big guns line out against the Davins in Clonmel Sunday?

kilnamanagh

Tipperary 1 Craig Harford 2 Donagh Maher (1-01) 4 Micheal Cahill 5 Colm Forde 6 Padraig Maher 7 Francis Kennedy 8 Neidin O’Riordan (0-02) 9 Liam Maher 10 Davie Loughnane (0-01) 11 Paul Loughnane (1-01) 12 John Sheedy (1-01) 13 Brian O’Meara (0-07) 15 Shane Burke (1-02)

This is the line up for the semi-final that Tipperary GAA Club played over in NY, Cahill is down as playing so maybe he was there for a little while and came back for the Sars.

Interestingly Tipperary were beaten in the semi-final, the opposition were the Long Island Gaels who had Paul Murphy playing for them. Seems that the Gaels must have been disqualified judging by Murphy's tweet three days after their win over Tipperary.

https://twitter.com/PaulMurphykk/status/368207391625838592

ReacherCreature

Deleted User wrote: »

id imagine give or take one or two though its predominantly their fringe squad which tbf is strong enough too. Will the big guns line out against the Davins in Clonmel Sunday?

That match was already on: Seamus O'Riain Cup Final Result - Thurles Sarsfields 3-18 Carrick Davins 1-13