Illegal immigration

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

I dislike immigration lawyers that play the run around and cost my nation millions - im being a gentlemen about it for the moment.

I am sure that you are a nice guy.

In case you forgot what you said, "- bar immigration lawyers, such as yourself."

That is not being a Gentelman, either for the moment or ever.

I don't have to be a nice guy, in my profession, but I do have to be a person of honesty and integrity.

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

In case you forgot what you said, "- bar immigration lawyers, such as yourself."

That is not being a Gentelman, either for the moment or ever.

I don't have to be a nice guy, in my profession, but I do have to be a person of honesty and integrity.

As I said, Iam being a gentleman about it for the moment.

Iam sure that you are a nice guy.:)

The Corinthian

IrishAm wrote: »

For that reason only, id support a once off amnesty in exchange for an immigration system that benefits the Irish people. I think that is a fair compromise, no?

That's an exception, not a compromise.

When the FF government changed the work permit legislation a lot of folk fell through the cracks. Give them a once off pass - but never again !

Until the next sob story tugs at our heart strings enough to engender another exception...

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

As I said, Iam being a gentleman about it for the moment.

Iam sure that you are a nice guy.:)

No Gentlemen do not insult people on a public forum, by implying the person has low moral/legal standards.

I don't care if you think I am a nice guy or not, in fact from your post history I would rather you did not think I'm a nice guy.

But I do not accept your assertion that lawyers act in an underhanded way to help illegals to get around the laws of this country.

I don't attack you or your profession, do not attack me or mine personally. If you want to debate immigration please do otherwise I will not engage with you.

IrishAm

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's an exception, not a compromise.

Until the next sob story tugs at our heart strings enough to engender another exception...

I think that is fair - maybe put the illegals on a probationary period. One things for sure , we aint gonna deport the 30,000.

The state deported circa 400 people last year.

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

I think that is fair - maybe put the illegals on a probationary period. One things for sure , we aint gonna deport the 30,000.

The state deported circa 400 people last year.

I am going to shock you now. If we do an over all amnesty, that is say any illegal living here no matter what the reason, here is a permission be good and we will make it permanent. If we do that there is a huge chance that Asylum applications will rise again, there is a huge chance people will decide to enter Ireland on student and holiday visas in the hope of another amnesty.

We have systems to deal with the difficult cases, the people who fall into illegal status, but a blanket amnesty is a very risky way of dealing with the issue. Also I would personally think the number of illegals is closer to 50000, based on nothing more than gut instinct.

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

No Gentlemen do not insult people on a public forum, by implying the person has low moral/legal standards.

I don't care if you think I am a nice guy or not, in fact from your post history I would rather you did not think I'm a nice guy.

But I do not accept your assertion that lawyers act in an underhanded way to help illegals to get around the laws of this country.

I don't attack you or your profession, do not attack me or mine personally. If you want to debate immigration please do otherwise I will not engage with you.

There are a lot of people asking why is this bogus asylum seeker living beside my whilst I work all hours to pay my mortgage ?

Eventually these angry people will be pointed in your direction. For now I am blaming the government.

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

There are a lot of people asking why is this bogus asylum seeker living beside my whilst I work all hours to pay my mortgage ?

Eventually these angry people will be pointed in your direction. For now I am blaming the government.

A few facts, an Asylum seeker bogus or other wise is more than likely living in a refugee centre while their claim is being processed. If they move out and live beside someone that's not my fault or any lawyer.

A second fact under Ireland's obligations in relation to international treaties all, refugee applications are entitled to legal assistance, which sorry must be given by lawyers.

Third fact on declaration of somebody as being a bogus asylum seeker at the end of the process, they should be deported once all applications are made, its not their lawyers fault that 5 years later the applicant is living and working in this country. That lays fairly and squarely at the feet of the Department, I do not understand why years after a deportation order is made people are still here it is not fair to them or to this country. In fact it creates a whole new issue as after a number of years the illegal can claim a right to legally reside here.

Scofflaw

IrishAm wrote: »

As I said, Iam being a gentleman about it for the moment.

No, you aren't. And you had better start being, because otherwise you'll be off this forum as well for good. This is your one final warning.

moderately,
Scofflaw

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

I am going to shock you now. If we do an over all amnesty, that is say any illegal living here no matter what the reason, here is a permission be good and we will make it permanent. If we do that there is a huge chance that Asylum applications will rise again, there is a huge chance people will decide to enter Ireland on student and holiday visas in the hope of another amnesty.

We have systems to deal with the difficult cases, the people who fall into illegal status, but a blanket amnesty is a very risky way of dealing with the issue. Also I would personally think the number of illegals is closer to 50000, based on nothing more than gut instinct.

Id refute our asylum agreement and scoop up some legit refugees from red cross camps each year. After the amnesty, Id deport anyone found to be in the state illegally - no appeals.

And if an illegal was found guilty of rape or murder - id body them and chuck their remains into their communities area.

That would send out a message - soft touch, no more.

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

A few facts, an Asylum seeker bogus or other wise is more than likely living in a refugee centre while their claim is being processed. If they move out and live beside someone that's not my fault or any lawyer.

90 per cent are bogus.

-Dealing fairly but efficiently with the large number of unfounded asylum claims which are being received which represent over 90% of the total asylum applications being processed annually

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

djpbarry

IrishAm wrote: »

...soft touch, no more.

Ireland is a "soft touch"? Relative to where?

The Corinthian

IrishAm wrote: »

One things for sure , we aint gonna deport the 30,000.

We don't deport them; that's closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

We target those businesses that employ illegal labour, increase funding and powers so as to be able to carry out spot checks and impose hefty fines and possibly even criminal charges. If one can decrease the supply of potential illegal employment, then it is no longer viable for illegal migrants to stay or come to Ireland in the first place.

It won't eliminate all illegal labour, but it is a far more efficient and cost effective method of decreasing it to manageable levels.

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

90 per cent are bogus.

-Dealing fairly but efficiently with the large number of unfounded asylum claims which are being received which represent over 90% of the total asylum applications being processed annually

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

I never disagreed with that statement, in fact if you go over my posts you will see I accept 90% are bogus. What has that got to do with anything, is a person after going through the system is still living in Ireland how is that the lawyers fault, they did their job, the person was refused all applications, deportation order issued, why is that person living and working in ireland, well I don't know.

Applications went from very few to 12000 a year in a few short years, the system could not cope, now applications have gone from 12000 to 950 last year, so as an issue it is disappearing.

So your issue is what exactly, at this stage it's seems that you are just plucking statements out of the Air, what exactly is you point.

IrishAm

The Corinthian wrote: »

We don't deport them; that's closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

We target those businesses that employ illegal labour, increase funding and powers so as to be able to carry out spot checks and impose hefty fines and possibly even criminal charges. If one can decrease the supply of potential illegal employment, then it is no longer viable for illegal migrants to stay or come to Ireland in the first place.

It won't eliminate all illegal labour, but it is a far more efficient and cost effective method of decreasing it to manageable levels.

I have no issue with that - id give an amnesty due to the fook up FF created.

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

I never disagreed with that statement, in fact if you go over my posts you will see I accept 90% are bogus. What has that got to do with anything, is a person after going through the system is still living in Ireland how is that the lawyers fault, they did their job, the person was refused all applications, deportation order issued, why is that person living and working in ireland, well I don't know.

Applications went from very few to 12000 a year in a few short years, the system could not cope, now applications have gone from 12000 to 950 last year, so as an issue it is disappearing.

So your issue is what exactly, at this stage it's seems that you are just plucking statements out of the Air, what exactly is you point.

I got infracted last time I spoke honestly with you.:o

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

I got infracted last time I spoke honestly with you.:o

Nobody gets infracted for speaking honestly, people get infracted because they make things personal. If you can not deal with my arguments then don't. If you can with out attacking me or any other poster personally then do, otherwise its not really a discussion is it.

Death and Taxes

There is certainly a need to completly overhaul the system with regard to both asylum/refugee claims and illegal workers.
Many of those who are undocumented were encouraged to come to Ireland to work legally, but were either treated very badly by employers or lost their jobs in the recession. Many have settled here, have children in school and simply wish to remain and build on the lives they initially created here when their position was legal.
For hose people there should be some grounds for an amnesty or some programme to allow them to remain here legally.

IrishAm

What do you guys make of Kai Murros and his speeches?

djpbarry

IrishAm wrote: »

What do you guys make of Kai Murros and his speeches?

Maybe you could address the questions that have been put to you. Specifically, this one:

djpbarry wrote: »

Ireland is a "soft touch"? Relative to where?

IrishAm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

There is certainly a need to completly overhaul the system with regard to both asylum/refugee claims and illegal workers.
Many of those who are undocumented were encouraged to come to Ireland to work legally, but were either treated very badly by employers or lost their jobs in the recession. Many have settled here, have children in school and simply wish to remain and build on the lives they initially created here when their position was legal.
For hose people there should be some grounds for an amnesty or some programme to allow them to remain here legally.

I am sorry, but you were educated/brainwashed by Lentin.

She is anti European.

IrishAm

djpbarry wrote: »

Maybe you could address the questions that have been put to you. Specifically, this one:

30,000 illegals - 400 deportees

Death and Taxes

IrishAm wrote: »

I am sorry, but you were educated/brainwashed by Lentin.

She is anti European.

I beg your pardon, at what point did Professor Lentin become anti European.
I resent your claim that I was brainwashed by the way, and Ronit was only one of many lecturers I have had while obtaining some level of education.

Death and Taxes

IrishAm wrote: »

What do you guys make of Kai Murros and his speeches?

He is a viruent Neo-Nazi and racist who promotes violence as a means to his deluded end.

IrishAm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I beg your pardon, at what point did Professor Lentin become anti European.
I resent your claim that I was brainwashed by the way, and Ronit was only one of many lecturers I have had while obtaining some level of education.

Since birth.

She has refused our offers to debate these last 6 months.

She, a zionist, calls my nation a racial state!!!

Joker.

Death and Taxes

IrishAm wrote: »

Since birth.

She has refused our offers to debate these last 6 months.

She, a zionist, calls my nation a racial state!!!

Joker.

There are no circumstances under which Ronit Lentin could ever be described as a Zionist. That is a deplorable and indeed defamatory characterization.
Who by the way is "Our"?

djpbarry

IrishAm wrote: »

30,000 illegals - 400 deportees

Ireland is "soft" relative to where? I'd expect a hell of a lot more than 30,000 illegal immigrants (let's not forget that figure is completely without basis) in a "soft" state.

IrishAm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He is a viruent Neo-Nazi and racist who promotes violence as a means to his deluded end.

Hes a wee bit mad, aint he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2hUiKLZkdI&list=WLs6Ei4YL8iOIuoTLfEJ_sf4YpFCdAo2Eg

Hes pro us and loves our people, so he gets a pass.

What a speaker.

IrishAm

djpbarry wrote: »

Ireland is "soft" relative to where? I'd expect a hell of a lot more than 30,000 illegal immigrants (let's not forget that figure is completely without basis) in a "soft" state.

Take the figure up with the Immigration Council of Ireland.

Death and Taxes

IrishAm wrote: »

Hes a wee bit mad, aint he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2hUiKLZkdI&list=WLs6Ei4YL8iOIuoTLfEJ_sf4YpFCdAo2Eg

Hes pro us and loves our people, so he gets a pass.

What a speaker.

Who are "us"?
And who are the "us" that Ronit Lentin refused to debate with?

IrishAm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Who are "us"?
And who are the "us" that Ronit Lentin refused to debate with?

People that disagree with anti Irish/Europeans.:)

Death and Taxes

IrishAm wrote: »

People that disagree with anti Irish/Europeans.:)

Who actually invited her to debate, what organization?
I can certainly understand her unwillingness since she is , like myself, neither antiIrish,anti-European, or a Zionist.

IrishAm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Who actually invited her to debate, what organization?
I can certainly understand her unwillingness since she is , like myself, neither antiIrish,anti-European, or a Zionist.

No, ok? Read her material.

G.D

Annasopra

IrishAm wrote: »

No, ok? Read her material.

G.D

Who is the us, our, etc?

Death and Taxes

IrishAm wrote: »

No, ok? Read her material.

G.D

I have , extensivley, as well as having studied under her.
The woman is one of the most outspoken critics of zionism and Israeli policy towards the Palistinians you would ever meet.
But dont let that get in the way of you defaming her.:mad:

IrishAm

mango salsa wrote: »

Who is the us, our, etc?

Who are you?

F*ck it. Golden Dawn.

IrishAm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I have , extensivley, as well as having studied under her.
The woman is one of the most outspoken critics of zionism and Israeli policy towards the Palistinians you would ever meet.
But dont let that get in the way of you defaming her.:mad:

Has she an Irish passport?

Death and Taxes

IrishAm wrote: »

Has she an Irish passport?

Yes, and publicly identifies herself as an "Irish Jew".
Obviously you are ignorant in extremis of both the life and work of Professor Lentin.

Death and Taxes

IrishAm wrote: »

Who are you?

F*ck it. Golden Dawn.

Ah, so you are a Neo Nazi.
Enough said, I wont be engaging with you again, I have certain standards beneath which I will not lower myself.

IrishAm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Yes, and publicly identifies herself as an "Irish Jew".
Obviously you are ignorant in extremis of both the life and work of Professor Lentin.

Quite the contrary. The anti Irish/anti Euro lady is quite high on my radar.

IrishAm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Ah, so you are a Neo Nazi.
Enough said, I wont be engaging with you again, I have certain standards beneath which I will not lower myself.

I am pro white.

Problem?

Scofflaw

IrishAm wrote: »

"Only Whites colonized, non-whites are saints who have never harmed a fly." No one needs to give you an apology for colonization. If it weren't for that, Africans and Indians would still be living in mud huts, wiping their asses with the same hand they use to eat. Oh, wait, they still do that. You hateful little madman . Remember no matter how much permission you might have to hate Whites, behind their PC smiles they ****ing despise you right back.

Yes, I think that will do. Permabanned.

moderately,
Scofflaw

AlekSmart

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's an exception, not a compromise.

Until the next sob story tugs at our heart strings enough to engender another exception...

Too true.

Sadly for some who actively dislike the Izevbekhai case being raised (yet again :eek:),It remains the most strident of wake-up calls,which in true national fashion,many wish to ignore.

Two lovely daughters....danger,wait no...certainty of FGM if they return,dreadful family history "back home in evil backward Nigeria"....Yes indeed the heart strings were plucked in a fashion even Barney McKenna would have problems matching.

The fact is that our Asylum Law functioned as intended almost to perfection in this (hi-profile) case,however what followed-on from that,and the inability of the State to cope with it,has as yet not been addressed.

And yes,the attitudes,actions and ethics of a significant section of the Irish Legal Profession contributed to the campaign to frustrate and undermine the State's Democratic Asylum process.

AlekSmart

WileyCoyote wrote: »

There is certainly a need to completly overhaul the system with regard to both asylum/refugee claims and illegal workers.
Many of those who are undocumented were encouraged to come to Ireland to work legally, but were either treated very badly by employers or lost their jobs in the recession. Many have settled here, have children in school and simply wish to remain and build on the lives they initially created here when their position was legal.
For hose people there should be some grounds for an amnesty or some programme to allow them to remain here legally.

By whom were these people encouraged ?

We know from the Izevbekhai case and other Nigerian specific one's,that a substantial business sector existed in "Facilitating" Nigerians to enter Ireland.

I would be quite confident that similar "Business Opportunities" were in place in other African and Asian countries too.

However,in our heart-searching and prolonged pandering to a few charlatans,we singularly failed to focus on the shady characters standing in the shadows of the principal cast....these people,truly evil in my opinion,were allowed to remain faceless and slip away back into the night to carry on their trade unhindered.

I would reiterate tyhat,for me,this was never about Pamela Izevbekhai,Olivia Agbonlahor,Kunle Eluhanle or the others,it was always about and remains about the "Support Mechanisms" and attitudes which allowed,and even encouraged, Trafficking Criminal Gangs to target and almost destroy Irelands Asylum process.

Scofflaw

Just to bear in mind that asylum seeking is not the same as illegal immigration, and that this thread is ostensibly about the latter rather than the former.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Duzzer

Scofflaw wrote: »

Just to bear in mind that asylum seeking is not the same as illegal immigration, and that this thread is ostensibly about the latter rather than the former.

moderately,
Scofflaw

What category should an asylum seeker who is given citizenship on false pretenses be classed as? I would argue they woud be a class of illegal immigrant and the same would go for an asylum seeker on the run after their application has been rejected. In my opinion these groups would fall under the remit of this discussion?

Death and Taxes

Duzzer wrote: »

What category should an asylum seeker who is given citizenship on false pretenses be classed as? I would argue they woud be a class of illegal immigrant and the same would go for an asylum seeker on the run after their application has been rejected. In my opinion these groups would fall under the remit of this discussion?

Link to evidence of these people who have obtained citizenship under "False Pretences", what were the false pretences? If someone is a citizen then they are,by definition, residing here legally.

AlekSmart

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Link to evidence of these people who have obtained citizenship under "False Pretences", what were the false pretences? If someone is a citizen then they are,by definition, residing here legally.

Link or No Link,Duzzer raises a valid query regarding any individual who'se Naturalization or Permission to Remain was subsequently found to have been accquired fraudulently ( or purchased from an obliging Govt Minister,as was ).

Worth teasing out a bit perhaps...?

Scofflaw

Duzzer wrote: »

What category should an asylum seeker who is given citizenship on false pretenses be classed as? I would argue they woud be a class of illegal immigrant and the same would go for an asylum seeker on the run after their application has been rejected. In my opinion these groups would fall under the remit of this discussion?

I'd see those as fair, but the problem is that through prejudice some people extend "bogus asylum seeker" to basically mean any asylum seeker, or any asylum seeker they have an opinion on, and make the further assumption that bogus asylum seeking is a major component of illegal immigration to Ireland, which the numbers don't support.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

AlekSmart wrote: »

Link or No Link,Duzzer raises a valid query regarding any individual who'se Naturalization or Permission to Remain was subsequently found to have been accquired fraudulently ( or purchased from an obliging Govt Minister,as was ).

Worth teasing out a bit perhaps...?

If someone has figures, sure, but not the kind of logic that's regularly used in these cases:

1. I heard of a case of such and such (but have never bothered to check its veracity) or know someone who...

2. ......

3. ...there are millions of "them" (definition of "them" according to personal prejudice) and it's a huge problem that justifies my prejudices.

cordially,
Scofflaw