Can SF transform into a leading party in next 5-10 years?

djpbarry

OCorcrain wrote: »

Show more where he said he didn't and completely dismissed that possibility?

When did I say he completely dismissed the possibility?

You explicitly stated that the Irish government supported the release of Jerry McCabe's killers. The article you linked merely states that the possibility was discussed between a number of parties, but at no point was the release endorsed by the Irish government. That is an entirely different thing.

FTA69

OCorcrain wrote: »

And who was the war against, the British Forces or the Gardaí Síocháina?

Going back to 'fund-raising'.


Answer this.

It's a stupid question, it's like asking if the IRA raped a woman or something would it be political, it's a loaded and nonsensical query. The IRA carried out literally thousands of bank and securicor van robberies and in many cases ended up in armed conflict with the police. Regardless of this fact, it was a political action committed in the context of a wider political struggle. You mightn't agree with that and that's fair enough, but the fact remains it was an IRA action, the IRA prisoners in question were eligible for release and Sinn Féin actively campaigned on their behalf.

I'd advise you not to deny history that is within very recent living memory because you'll only end up looking silly.

djpbarry,

But they didn’t in the immediate aftermath of the murder, did they? Hence it was made abundantly clear during negotiations that the murderers would not be eligible for release.

There were umpteen operations carried out that weren't complained until a few days after they transpired. I quoted you the full text concerning prisoners and the Castlerea crowd met every one of the conditions laid down. They weren't released because the McDowell refused to release them, not because they weren't qualifying.

OCorcrain

djpbarry wrote: »

The article you linked merely states that the possibility was discussed between a number of parties, but at no point was the release endorsed by the Irish government. That is an entirely different thing.

Would the fact that they actually considered the possibility arouse your indignation and disgust?

golfball37

The Irish governement never publicly supported the release of the McCabe killers they just went along and released them.

Actions speak louder than words to most people of average intelligence. I wouldn't trust any Irish government from 1975 on and what they say or have said.

Zubeneschamali

OCorcrain wrote: »

Nope I still don't see anywhere where I explicitly said that.

I'll try once more. djpbarry said:

djpbarry wrote: »

The Irish government made it quite clear on more than one occasion that McCabe’s killers would not be released under the terms of the GFA.

You wrote:

OCorcrain wrote: »

Really? Because our Taoiseach and the British Government did.

That certainly looks as though you are disagreeing with what djpbarry said, and what he said was that the Irish Government position was that the killers would not be released under the GFA.

The linked story also quotes Ahern saying that the GFA does not apply, so it supports what djpbarry wrote.

So what exactly were you disagreeing with?

MakeEmLaugh

Does it strike anyone else as odd that Sinn Féin have had the same party leader for the last 30 years, whereas Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour have all had multiple changes to party leader? To wit...

Fianna Fáil (1983-2013): Charles Haughey, Albert Reynolds, Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen, Micheál Martin.

Fine Gael (1983-2013): Garret Fitzgerald, Alan Dukes, John Bruton, Michael Noonan, Enda Kenny

Labour (1983-2013): Dick Spring, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, Eamon Gilmore

Sinn Féin (1983-2013): Gerry Adams

It's almost as if Sinn Féin aren't a normal, democratically functional political party at all. More a front for a more sinister, militant, anti-democratic movement...

Crooked Jack

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that Sinn Féin have had the same party leader for the last 30 years, whereas Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour have all had multiple changes to party leader? To wit...

Fianna Fáil (1983-2013): Charles Haughey, Albert Reynolds, Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen, Micheál Martin.

Fine Gael (1983-2013): Garret Fitzgerald, Alan Dukes, John Bruton, Michael Noonan, Enda Kenny

Labour (1983-2013): Dick Spring, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, Eamon Gilmore

Sinn Féin (1983-2013): Gerry Adams

It's almost as if Sinn Féin aren't a normal, democratically functional political party at all. More a front for a more sinister, militant, anti-democratic movement...

Because they have a strong leadership that the party members support?
Riiiight.
Also' you're aware that anybody is free to challenge Adams every year at the party's Ard Fheis so explain how their anti-democratic. If you could also explain "sinister" and "militant" that would be a help.

Oh, and I'd take Adams over that lot you just mentioned any day.

blahfckingblah

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that Sinn Féin have had the same party leader for the last 30 years, whereas Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour have all had multiple changes to party leader? To wit...

Fianna Fáil (1983-2013): Charles Haughey, Albert Reynolds, Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen, Micheál Martin.

Fine Gael (1983-2013): Garret Fitzgerald, Alan Dukes, John Bruton, Michael Noonan, Enda Kenny

Labour (1983-2013): Dick Spring, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, Eamon Gilmore

Sinn Féin (1983-2013): Gerry Adams

It's almost as if Sinn Féin aren't a normal, democratically functional political party at all. More a front for a more sinister, militant, anti-democratic movement...

hmm in a lot of cases the leaders resigned after controversy, so your point is kind of invalid as they led to their own demise

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

The IRA carried out literally thousands of bank and securicor van robberies and in many cases ended up in armed conflict with the police.

This was no “armed conflict” – the guards in question didn’t even have a chance to draw their weapons.

And let’s not forget that there was no money stolen either.

This was a calculated murder, plain and simple.

FTA69 wrote: »

There were umpteen operations carried out that weren't complained until a few days after they transpired.

The IRA initially denied any involvement. They later relented and admitted that members were involved, but their actions were not authorised.

djpbarry

OCorcrain wrote: »

Would the fact that they actually considered the possibility arouse your indignation and disgust?

Not really, no, because in attempting to resolve a conflict, compromises have to be reached – nothing is black and white.

Now, if Bertie and McDowell greeted the killers on their release, that would disgust me.

golfball37 wrote: »

The Irish governement never publicly supported the release of the McCabe killers they just went along and released them.

They were released once they served their sentences? That’s generally how a justice system works.

Zubeneschamali

OCorcrain wrote: »

And who was the war against, the British Forces or the Gardaí Síocháina?

The war was fought against anyone who opposed the will of the Irish People expressed in the mandate given to Sinn Fein in the last all-ireland election in 1918, whether British forces or Free State traitors.

That mandate is currently held by the Continuity IRA, if you follow that sort of thing.

COYW

barney 20v wrote: »

I believe they might have a chance of getting a junior role in government.

With who though? What mainstream party is brave enough to go into coalition with SF? I can't see FF, FG or Labour going into power with them.

Stheno wrote: »

If they got rid of the likes of Ellis, McGuinness and everyone else associated with terrorism, and formulated some economic policies that actually made sense, then yes.

It would still take a few generations for that stigma to dissipate.

oscarBravo wrote: »

think about the knock-on effects: this will increase costs to health insurance companies, who will in turn raise premiums, which will in turn lead to a certain percentage of subscribers no longer being able to afford private health insurance, which leads to more patients and higher costs for the HSE.

Which will also lead to job loses across the private healthcare sector, of course.

If you leave SFs past aside for one moment and just take them on the value of their current policies, I fail to understand why any middle or upper class worker would vote for SF for them. The fact that they consider the last few government in this country as right-wing, shows how naive and populist they really are.

Zubeneschamali

COYW wrote: »

I fail to understand why any middle or upper class worker would vote for SF for them.

Obviously, they are trying to buy the votes of the bottom 50% income wise, not the top 50%.

SoulandForm

COYW wrote: »

If you leave SFs past aside for one moment and just take them on the value of their current policies, I fail to understand why any middle or upper class worker would vote for SF for them. The fact that they consider the last few government in this country as right-wing, shows how naive and populist they really are.

You could also the fact that many people consider Sinn Fein to be extreme left or even Marxist shows how naive they are also.

This is not true. Even members of the middle class vote for Sinn Fein (pub owners, small business men- I wouldnt say many Doctors or Lawyers vote for them but you never know) and certainly they have support among all layers of the working class (lumpens dont vote and hate SF because of their association with vigilantes).

SoulandForm

OCorcrain wrote: »

So the same unionist statelet that discriminates against Catholics still exists yes?:rolleyes:

This really gets me.

The Provisional IRA was clear that it believed that sectarianism was just a symptom of British rule and that there was no point in focusing or trying to solve other problems until that was sorted out. That was the cause of their split with the Officials. Now we here that the Provo campaign was about civil rights and an end to discrimination- it wasnt. You could argue that it undermined and halted the good work done by NICRA.

The fact is though that discrimination still continues in Northern Ireland- sometimes against its Catholics, other times its against Protestants. Yes the nastiness is spread around a bit more equally but that isnt the type of society I want to live in. Sinn Fein seem happy enough with the current set up at the moment.

British occupation remains. The six counties remain a strange colonial experiment even though Catholics now may have it just as bad as Prods in general.

Not yet Emmett.

ManMade

Can someone please tell me how they will raise money after defaulting on our debts and squandered the pension reserve on there block of voters?

GRMA

They already are a leading party...

Godge

GRMA wrote: »

They already are a leading party...

only in snapshot opinion polls, not in real elections. We have one more election, the next local elections, due before the general election that will see a rise in SF popularity. After that, all downhill, back to obscurity.

jimmycrackcorm

GRMA wrote: »

They already are a leading party...

Yes, leading the way in whacky economic policies and the politics of protest and double standards.

hyperborean

I can’t see them becoming anything other than what they are, a party with an aging leadership that has no intention of quitting despite the baggage that hold it back.
These are supported by young bucks with little or no rational political/economic interest.

The debating and propaganda expertise of the leadership is undoubtedly top quality but they don’t really stand up to scrutiny in both economic and ethical terms.

The young followers in my experience can be one of 2 types

-In the mould of the leadership
-Lacking common sense

There is absolutely no possibility of this party becoming mainstream or relevant.

LordSutch

God willing they will never have an overall majority, which leaves them coalition prospects.

Can't see Fine Gael getting into bed with the Shinners.
Can't see Labout doing a deal with them either.
What about a Fianna Fail & Sinn Fein government, nah.
SF plus independents? not enough seats I would imagine/hope.

So in answer to the OPs question, NO, they have too much unsavoury baggage anyway, ergo nobody would prop them up in government.

GRMA

Godge wrote: »

only in snapshot opinion polls, not in real elections. We have one more election, the next local elections, due before the general election that will see a rise in SF popularity. After that, all downhill, back to obscurity.

Not everyone has a partitionist mentality.

They are in govt in the north, in a mandatory coalition and trying to mitigate tory cuts.

They already are a leading party in Ireland.

They will be in govt in the south soon enough.

And as for Adams being in charge, he is very popular with the membership, thats why he is still president.

Madam

LordSutch wrote: »

God willing they will never have an overall majority, which leaves them coalition prospects.

Can't see Fine Gael getting into bed with the Shinners.
Can't see Labout doing a deal with them either.
What about a Fianna Fail & Sinn Fein government, nah.
SF plus independents? not enough seats I would imagine/hope.

So in answer to the OPs question, NO, they have too much unsavoury baggage anyway, ergo nobody would prop them up in government.

I stopped reading at the word 'shinners'(as I do when the word is mentioned in any post). Its a shame as you are one of the more interesting posters on here.

djpbarry

GRMA wrote: »

They already are a leading party in Ireland.

They received less than 10% of the vote in the last general election - how does that translate into "leading party"?

GRMA wrote: »

They will be in govt in the south soon enough.

That seems extremely unlikely. It is probable that economic conditions will be more favourable relative to 2011 come the 2015 general election. If SF couldn't secure a large enough protest vote to get into government in the immediate aftermath of the EU-IMF bailout, it seems highly improbable that they will manage it next time 'round (or any other election in the short-to-medium term).

Zubeneschamali

djpbarry wrote: »

If SF couldn't secure a large enough protest vote to get into government in the immediate aftermath of the EU-IMF bailout, it seems highly improbable that they will manage it next time 'round

I don't think the EU-IMF bailout was entirely a positive for SF, since it focused a lot of attention on deficits/tax/economic plans, and their crayon scribblings policies were particularly weak in that area.

GRMA

It makes me laugh, people slagging off SFs economic policies.

The other parties are hardly good at economics are they? They are the economic illiterates.

djpbarry

GRMA wrote: »

It makes me laugh, people slagging off SFs economic policies.

The other parties are hardly good at economics are they? They are the economic illiterates.

So it doesn't matter that SF's policies are nonsense, so long as the alternatives are less than perfect?

hyperborean

GRMA wrote: »

It makes me laugh, people slagging off SFs economic policies.

The other parties are hardly good at economics are they? They are the economic illiterates.

Instead of laughing you should articulate the point and expand on it and then you and other SF supporters may get some traction on moving the party away from the current "ULSTER SAYS NO" type political dialogue!
This is why the majority of posters consider SF a party on the perifery with no future but opposition.

sarumite

GRMA wrote: »

It makes me laugh, people slagging off SFs economic policies.

The other parties are hardly good at economics are they? They are the economic illiterates.

They may well be economic illiterates and yet their economic policies are far superior to any of the populist nonsense spouted by SF. SF will always (and should always) remain an opposition party in the south. Governing is not the job of demagogues. One term in government would see SF either decimated in the next election or completely abandon 90% of their economic policies due to the harsh realities of governing a country.

Zubeneschamali

GRMA wrote: »

The other parties are hardly good at economics are they? They are the economic illiterates.

Well, no. Fianna Fail were irresponsible. Fine Gael are illiberal. Labour are unfashionable.

Good loser

sarumite wrote: »

They may well be economic illiterates and yet their economic policies are far superior to any of the populist nonsense spouted by SF. SF will always (and should always) remain an opposition party in the south. Governing is not the job of demagogues. One term in government would see SF either decimated in the next election or completely abandon 90% of their economic policies due to the harsh realities of governing a country.

My favourite is the one where they're going to generate 50,000 or 60,000 jobs in twelve months!

Son Of A Vidic

barney 20v wrote: »

No. And they never should be allowed into government in this state

Spoken like a true democrat.

Godge

GRMA wrote: »

Not everyone has a partitionist mentality..

What is a partitionist mentality? Is it a term of abuse or an insult? If so, how does using it contribute to rational debate on internet fora?

There are many people who are happy with the current situation, respect the Unionist majority in the North and are content with the status quo being in place for the next 30-50 years. The fact that these people exist and are therefore an obstacle to childish dreams of imminent unification of the island should not be reason for abuse.

GRMA wrote: »

They are in govt in the north, in a mandatory coalition and trying to mitigate tory cuts..

Don't you mean that they are implementing tory cuts.

GRMA wrote: »

They already are a leading party in Ireland..

In this state they are a minority party which has never been in power.

GRMA wrote: »

They will be in govt in the south soon enough..

I cannot see that happening ever.

GRMA wrote: »

And as for Adams being in charge, he is very popular with the membership, thats why he is still president.

Good, because he is unpopular with the voting public and that is fine with me.

OCorcrain

Godge wrote: »

What is a partitionist mentality? Is it a term of abuse or an insult? If so, how does using it contribute to rational debate on internet fora?

Anyone who completely dismisses the past and future concept of a United Ireland without regard for the arguments that support the concept itself. An individual who holds disdain for Irish heritage and culture, and are more likely to criticize and berate the people and the island of Ireland for its apparent 'mediocrity'.

The fact that these people exist and are therefore an obstacle to childish dreams of imminent unification of the island should not be reason for abuse.

I would not see unionists as people to be hated, ignored and dismissed. People such as yourself are quick to label and imply that every Sinn Féin member as mindless militants, out of touch with reality, sectarian and uneducated. All in an attempt to lend credence to your blatantly biased arguments and philosophy. It shows extraordinary ignorance on the part of posters such as yourself. But that is fine because all an impartial individual has to do is read the vitriol from posters such as yourself.

Don't you mean that they are implementing tory cuts.

Elaborate.

In this state they are a minority party which has never been in power.

The First Dáil was Sinn Féin. Shows how ignorant you are of your own country's history.

Good, because he is unpopular with the voting public and that is fine with me.

Yes, that is why he had one of the highest first count votes in the country...

barney 20v

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Spoken like a true democrat.

As a democrat I am entitled to hold an opinion on ALL political parties in this state.
I strongly feel that sf should never be allowed into government in this state... Ask Garda McCabe's family about sf/nationalist attitudes to the democratic process.

pablomakaveli

OCorcrain wrote: »

Anyone who completely dismisses the past and future concept of a United Ireland without regard for the arguments that support the concept itself. An individual who holds disdain for Irish heritage and culture, and are more likely to criticize and berate the people and the island of Ireland for its apparent 'mediocrity'.

Hang on a second here. Just because someone opposes a UI does not mean they have disdain for Irish heritage and culture.

It seems to be part of the Sinn Fein mentality that you arent truly Irish and must hate Ireland if you dont support a UI which is complete nonsense.

oscarBravo

OCorcrain wrote: »

Anyone who completely dismisses the past and future concept of a United Ireland without regard for the arguments that support the concept itself.

If the arguments are pragmatic, they deserve to be listened to; if they're emotive, they deserve to be dismissed out of hand. Most of the pragmatic arguments I've heard boil down to economies of scale, which arguments could equally (or better) be applied to a fully integrated, federal Europe - but strangely enough, I rarely hear the same people who argue for a united Ireland also argue for a united Europe.

On that point, it's interesting that Sinn Féin have consistently opposed every single EU treaty. What's more interesting is that in the case of the last several, they have claimed to be a pro-EU party, but that the EU they are in favour of is the one implemented by the previous treaty - the last one they opposed.

Crooked Jack

barney 20v wrote: »

As a democrat I am entitled to hold an opinion on ALL political parties in this state.
I strongly feel that sf should never be allowed into government in this state... Ask Garda McCabe's family about sf/nationalist attitudes to the democratic process.

Normally doesnt take this long for someone to drag up jerry mccabe's ghost and kick it about for their own ends. dont forget to throw in a jean mcconville reference if garda mccabes emotional blackmail doesnt work. so when you say they shouldnt be allowed into government ever does that mean even if the people elect them, cause then youre not a democrat

barney 20v

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Normally doesnt take this long for someone to drag up jerry mccabe's ghost and kick it about for their own ends. dont forget to throw in a jean mcconville reference if garda mccabes emotional blackmail doesnt work. so when you say they shouldnt be allowed into government ever does that mean even if the people elect them, cause then youre not a democrat

It was brought up recently in the dail directly to sf TD's who ignored it.
If I choose to not forget the murder of a servant of the state by an illegal organisation its up to me.
I take badly to sf supporters forgetting exactly who they are voting for.
You know exactly what I mean,I have clarified it previously on this thread.

I believe that sf will possibly get one shot at being in government in the next 20 yrs.
I fully believe that they will make a complete sh1te of it .

No doubt their are some good people involved in sf, but I doubt they will exist in sufficient numbers to influence the party leadership to reform their policies and to develop a realistic/honest economic and fiscal policy .

I know many many people who support sinn fein, most do so out of an urge to rile against the established parties in the Dail.
Some are hardcore supporters looking for an united Ireland etc.

I believe that sf will get many young votes next time around, mostly from under 30's who do not remember why these people will be remembered in history.
I hope for my children's sake that sf never get into government .
If they are elected then so be it.
But I will educate my kids all about the real sf when they are old enough, in the hope that they to will never vote for a party involved in anyway in the murder of Irish citizens.

pablomakaveli

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Normally doesnt take this long for someone to drag up jerry mccabe's ghost and kick it about for their own ends. dont forget to throw in a jean mcconville reference if garda mccabes emotional blackmail doesnt work. so when you say they shouldnt be allowed into government ever does that mean even if the people elect them, cause then youre not a democrat

This actually hows another reason why Sinn Fein do themselves no favours. When Sinn Fein and their supporters are so dismissive of these legitimite concerns of people in this country, people who Sinn Fein are asking for votes, then why should these people vote for them?

Its insulting to voters plain and simple and as long as this attitude persists Sinn Fein will struggle to become a leading party.

Crooked Jack

pablomakaveli wrote: »

This actually hows another reason why Sinn Fein do themselves no favours. When Sinn Fein and their supporters are so dismissive of these legitimite concerns of people in this country, people who Sinn Fein are asking for votes, then why should these people vote for them?

Its insulting to voters plain and simple and as long as this attitude persists Sinn Fein will struggle to become a leading party.

It has nothing to do with legitimate concerns and everything to do with using this poor mans death to score political points. if nothing else its disrespectful to the man's memory. fact is sinn fein did not kill this man so to link his death to sinn fein is nothing other than point scoring

murphaph

In answer to the original question...no, SF cannot transform into a LEADING party in the next few years and not because of their past but because of their policies.

Forgetting all their "baggage" (and it is too soon to forget IMO as known murderers are still active in SF) they are a strongly left leaning, almost marxist party. That is their business but strongly left leaning parties in Ireland have never been historically leading parties. The largest left leaning party is Labour and they are not at all succesful outside urban Ireland. Assuming Labour don't vanish from the face of the earth, then SF and Labour will always be splitting the vote.

I think the "contributing classes" will get more conservative in their voting and the public service will keep voting Labour, leaving the unemployed to vote for SF (and I don't believe they can get a majority of unemployed voters, who vote less anyway, to support them)

pablomakaveli

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It has nothing to do with legitimate concerns and everything to do with using this poor mans death to score political points. if nothing else its disrespectful to the man's memory. fact is sinn fein did not kill this man so to link his death to sinn fein is nothing other than point scoring

Some of their members did greet his killers outside prison. When members of a party do that and expect it to be forgotten about come election time, then its becomes pure arrogance and ignorance on their part.

As i said it is a concern of some voters and to dismiss it as point scoring is just a plain insult to them.

barney 20v

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It has nothing to do with legitimate concerns and everything to do with using this poor mans death to score political points. if nothing else its disrespectful to the man's memory. fact is sinn fein did not kill this man so to link his death to sinn fein is nothing other than point scoring

Garda McCabe was murdered by the Ira.... Of course you say sinn fein knew nothing about it.... You may claim I am being disrespectful but IMHO good people such as Garda McCabe should never be forgotten and his murder by the ira is one legitimate example of the double standards of sf/ira
I will never forget the real sf or their crimes against this state and its people .
The other parties as I previously stated are useless as well.
I think the electorate deserve better than ALL those sitting in the dail.

Its Just the last time I checked the Green party for example had not murdered unarmed police officers in the recent past....

Fr Tod Umptious

OCorcrain wrote: »

The First Dáil was Sinn Féin. Shows how ignorant you are of your own country's history.

Yes, that is why he had one of the highest first count votes in the country...

And if you wish to be pedantic about it I'll remind you that the Irish who signed thaw Anglo Irish treaty that divide wed the island were all SF.

The fact that Gerry Adams topped the poll is true, but then again SF had to bring in the biggest of the big guys to make sure that Arthur Morgans seat was saved, in a border county and all.

rightwingdub

If Sinn Fein ever got into government they would be quickly found out as a bunch of economic illiterates that would make FG/FF/Labour look competent, how many SF TDS have ever run a business, their economic policies would turn Ireland into Cuba, on the positive side for SF a lot of middle class or wealthy people would emigrate as they would tax the middle income families as well as the wealthy into oblivion in order to throw welfare like confetti at the terminally poor who would be Sinn Fein's main support, I admire their policies on the North as well as standing up for Northern Nationalists but their economic policies are absolutely rubbish.

Kinski

rightwingdub wrote: »

how many SF TDS have ever run a business

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin - he was a bank manager.

rightwingdub

Kinski wrote: »

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin - he was a bank manager.

Thats not something to be putting on his CV given what the banks did to the country.

RandomName2

OCorcrain wrote: »

The First Dáil was Sinn Féin. Shows how ignorant you are of your own country's history.

Not this again.

I could change my name by deed poll to Brian Boru.

Did you know that I once happened to be the high king of Ireland?

oscarBravo wrote: »

On that point, it's interesting that Sinn Féin have consistently opposed every single EU treaty. What's more interesting is that in the case of the last several, they have claimed to be a pro-EU party, but that the EU they are in favour of is the one implemented by the previous treaty - the last one they opposed.

Although disingenuous, their position is logical enough. Why would they want to pursue hegemony, and at the same time, water down sovereignty? Nonetheless, despite their innate opposition to European governance, the Dail, and Westminster, (an aspect of ourselves-alone autarky) they are willing to work with all of the above for their own ends (although they are still keeping up the tradition of their representatives, who are elected to Westminster, not actually taking their seats for symbolic reasons).

Besides which, if you say that you were opposed to all the former EU treaties, and that they were passed anyway, would it not seem to undermine the significance of your opposition?

maccored

If SF keep working hard at a public level - as they are now (there are many who will tell you their local SF Councillor works hard) - then their vote will increase. I think thats going to be the defining factor ... are they doing their job at a grassroot level and helping voters in whatever way they can.

I find it interesting people seem to be more concerned about the reputation a party has moreso on the work that they do. If SF pretended to have no links with the north or the IRA - learned to lie constantly through their teeth in other words - then there are those who would suddenly support them. Yet we all are struck with shame when our elected representative lie to us. I really dont get that 'make yourself more presentable and you might get my vote' mindset.