Can SF transform into a leading party in next 5-10 years?

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

Martin McGuinness..... Leading member/former member of the ira true or not?
On 10 February 2005, the government-appointed Independent Monitoring Commission reported that it firmly supported the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) and Garda assessments that the IRA was responsible for the Northern Bank robbery and that certain senior members of Sinn Féin were also senior members of the IRA and would have had knowledge of and given approval to the carrying out of the robbery.

Sinn Féin had nothing to do with it, more speculative crap from the establishent who would hate to see a left party in government, What proof is there that Sinn Féin were behind it and "gave approval"? More nonsense.

Since we have brought up the issues of robberies how about that 90 Billion Euros that was robbed from the Irish taxpayer by the government? Or that 1 billion euro that was robbed from us to pay bondholders. All this money taken from the people of this country WITHOUT OUR CONSENT.

The likes of yourself trying to demonize Sinn Féin by associating the entire party with criminality is sheer libel and hypocrisy. Especially when you choose to ignore how Irish people are being exploited economically.

In March 2005, Mitchell Reiss, the United States special envoy to Northern Ireland, condemned the party's links to the IRA, saying "it is hard to understand how a European country in the year 2005 can have a private army associated with a political party".

You mean Reiss the right wing nut who served with Mitt Romney in his presidential bid? Of course he would be quick to criticize a party his likes would label "commies". Do not make me laugh.

Nervous Nigel

Anytime Sinn Fein/IRA try and make inroads with "real people", the cold blooded murder of Jerry McCabe can be wheeled out to remind them what they are.

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

Sinn Féin had nothing to do with it, more speculative crap from the establishent who would hate to see a left party in government, What proof is there that Sinn Féin were behind it and "gave approval"? More nonsense.

Since we have brought up the issues of robberies how about that 90 Billion Euros that was robbed from the Irish taxpayer by the government? Or that 1 billion euro that was robbed from us to pay bondholders. All this money taken from the people of this country WITHOUT OUR CONSENT.

The likes of yourself trying to demonize Sinn Féin by associating the entire party with criminality is sheer libel and hypocrisy. Especially when you choose to ignore how Irish people are being exploited economically.



You mean Reiss the right wing nut who served with Mitt Romney in his presidential bid? Of course he would be quick to criticize a party his likes would label "commies". Do not make me laugh.

I love the way you ignore the mcguinness question,

You will never convince me sf had no knowledge/involvement in the ni bank robbery .
Which government do you mean in relation to 90 billion?
The governments were democratically elected to govern. That was the peoples consent.
I know sf would love to have done different....I have heard that danni dyer lookalike from Donegal getting ripped to shreds on economic policy on many programmes .

I am not trying to demonize sf, I simply brought to your attention the findings of an independent commission, of course you do not accept the findings. That is your opinion.

In relation to reiss, it is accurate what he said in relation to sf/ira regardless of his politics

OCorcrain

Nervous Nigel wrote: »

Anytime Sinn Fein/IRA try and make inroads with "real people", the cold blooded murder of Jerry McCabe can be wheeled out to remind them what they are.

What absolute trash. Sinn Féin had nothing to do with the McCabe killing as has been reiterated countless times, but ok let us ignore the fact that the killing has been condemned by Sinn Féin.

Anytime Fine Gael/Fascists try to make inroads with "real people", the cold blood murder of Spanish civilians the plight and the Holocaust can be wheeld out to remind them what they are.

Anytime Fianna Fáil/Oligarchs try to make inroads with "real people", the cold blood murder and abuse of Irish children by the protected clergy in industrial schools, and of Irish people during the Irish Civil War started by De Valera can be wheeled out to remind them what they are.

Anytime Labour/OIRA try to make inroads with "real people", the cold blood murder of people and betrayal of the people who voted for them can be wheeled out to remind them of who they are.

Now you at least have a glimpse of the stupid, hypocritical nonsense you spout.

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

The governments were democratically elected to govern. That was the peoples consent.

Oh wow that is fine then, they were elected so they can do as they please, even when it comes to robbing the Irish taxpayer over 90 Billion euros.

Bashar Al Assad was elected as well, so that completely justifies the 60,000 of his own people he has massacred. But that is ok though because he was elected by them after all...

sure joe

barney 20v wrote: »

I am of the opinion that a citizen who chooses to serve this republic and to protect it and its people from ALL threats both domestic and foreign is a good person.
Garda McCabe was murdered by ira operatives while doing his duty.
Sinn fein turned up to the release of these murderers .
The gardai were armed, on that you are correct.
May I remind you they were legally armed and part of a democratically controlled state ..the ira were not.

was it a democratically created state. where the uvf and uff who were organised and assisted by the british goverment and supported by the irish goverment and gardai a legal army

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

What absolute trash. Sinn Féin had nothing to do with the McCabe killing as has been reiterated countless times, but ok let us ignore the fact that the killing has been condemned by Sinn Féin.

Anytime Fine Gael/Fascists try to make inroads with "real people", the cold blood murder of Spanish civilians the plight and the Holocaust can be wheeld out to remind them what they are.

Anytime Fianna Fáil/Oligarchs try to make inroads with "real people", the cold blood murder and abuse of Irish children by the protected clergy in industrial schools, and of Irish people during the Irish Civil War started by De Valera can be wheeled out to remind them what they are.

Anytime Labour/OIRA try to make inroads with "real people", the cold blood murder of people and betrayal of the people who voted for them can be wheeled out to remind them of who they are.

Now you at least have a glimpse of the stupid, hypocritical nonsense you spout.

What absolute trash. Sinn Féin had nothing to do with the McCabe killing as has been reiterated countless times, but ok let us ignore the fact that the killing has been condemned by Sinn Féin.......


The killing of Detective McCabe happened four months after the breakdown of the first IRA ceasefire in 1996. The Army Council of the IRA initially denied involvement, but later admitted that individual members were involved "in contravention of its orders". Later Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams would state that the operation was "not authorised by the Army Council, but authorised at a lower level by an authorised person"
Nothing to do with it....yea I doubt it tbh.

barney 20v

sure joe wrote: »

was it a democratically created state. where the uvf and uff who were organised and assisted by the british goverment and supported by the irish goverment and gardai a legal army

Proof please ?

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

Oh wow that is fine then, they were elected so they can do as they please, even when it comes to robbing the Irish taxpayer over 90 Billion euros.

Bashar Al Assad was elected as well, so that completely justifies the 60,000 of his own people he has massacred. But that is ok though because he was elected by them after all...

Are you directly comparing the economic steps taken by the governments with the killing of 60,000 people ?

sure joe

barney 20v wrote: »

Martin McGuinness..... Leading member/former member of the ira true or not?
On 10 February 2005, the government-appointed Independent Monitoring Commission reported that it firmly supported the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) and Garda assessments that the IRA was responsible for the Northern Bank robbery and that certain senior members of Sinn Féin were also senior members of the IRA and would have had knowledge of and given approval to the carrying out of the robbery

In March 2005, Mitchell Reiss, the United States special envoy to Northern Ireland, condemned the party's links to the IRA, saying "it is hard to understand how a European country in the year 2005 can have a private army associated with a political party".

yes because the u.s are in a position to lecture anybody in morality

barney 20v

sure joe wrote: »

yes because the u.s are in a position to lecture anybody in morality

As I previously stated, his Comments are accurate and truthful regardless of his nationality or political viewpoint.
More sf deflection from the point.

sure joe

Nervous Nigel wrote: »

Anytime Sinn Fein/IRA try and make inroads with "real people", the cold blooded murder of Jerry McCabe can be wheeled out to remind them what they are.

and when it is. F.F, F.G & Lab should be asked what they done about. bloody sunday, british collusion with unionist paramiltaries, the shooting of unarmed civilians including children by british security forces and why after a british army led bombings of dublin, monaghan and dundalk the irish goverment and gardai handed over evidence to the british.

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

Are you directly comparing the economic steps taken by the governments with the killing of 60,000 people ?

No I am using the fallacy of the argument that was used in the context that just because a political party or individual was elected to govern it does not mean what or everything they do is legitimate or justifiable.

barney 20v

sure joe wrote: »

and when it is. F.F, F.G & Lab should be asked what they done about. bloody sunday, british collusion with unionist paramiltaries, the shooting of unarmed civilians including children by british security forces and why after a british army led bombings of dublin, monaghan and dundalk the irish goverment and gardai handed over evidence to the british.

Once again... Where's the proof ? Hearsay..!

sure joe

barney 20v wrote: »

As I previously stated, his Comments are accurate and truthful regardless of his nationality or political viewpoint.
More sf deflection from the point.

again you believe his comments are correct because they are the same as yours. a true democrat indeed

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

Once again... Where's the proof ? Hearsay..!

Oh the irony...

sure joe

barney 20v wrote: »

Once again... Where's the proof ? Hearsay..!

so hearsay is only applicable to the claims made about members of sinn fein.....hhhmmmmmm interesting

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

No I am using the fallacy of the argument that was used in the context that just because a political party or individual was elected to govern it does not mean what or everything they do is legitimate or justifiable.

Maybe try to use a less inflammatory/realistic Comparison next time eh?

barney 20v

sure joe wrote: »

so hearsay is only applicable to the claims made about members of sinn fein.....hhhmmmmmm interesting

Once again/ the findings of an independent commission... Not hearsasy.

barney 20v

sure joe wrote: »

again you believe his comments are correct because they are the same as yours. a true democrat indeed

I believe he is correct simple as... Nothing more!
Its fully democratic to have and express my opinion

RandomName2

sure joe wrote: »

northern was a state that was created to give the protestant control over a part of ireland, because they had the majority and were armed to the teeth. agreeing to this partition was the cause of thosands of deaths and was an act of cowardice by both the english and irish.

The Irish Free State was a state that was created to give the catholics [sic] control over part of ireland, because they had the majority and were armed to the teeth. agreeing to this partition was the cause of thousands of deaths and was an act of cowardice by both the english [sic] and unionists.

sure joe wrote: »

all they managed to do was delay the inevitable

And that claim is by the right of our manifest destiny to overspread and to possess the whole of the island which Providence has given us

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

Once again/ the findings of an independent commission... Not hearsasy.

And what irrefutable evidence does the independent commission have to substantiate these (to put it mildly),speculative claims.

Or is that all it is...speculation? Along with assumptions that cater towards vested interests, which realistically speaking would amount to political manouvering and gain for the third parties involved.

OCorcrain

RandomName2 wrote: »

The Irish Free State was a state that was created to give the catholics [sic] control over part of ireland, because they had the majority and were armed to the teeth. agreeing to this partition was the cause of thousands of deaths and was an act of cowardice by both the english [sic] and unionists.

Wrong in the context that your argument is that it was solely the objective of the independence movement to seek a Catholic state, a core principle of Irish Republicanism is secularism, a principle many of the uniformed seem to be unaware of.

Proclamation of Independence wrote:

The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

And what irrefutable evidence does the independent commission have to substantiate these (to put it mildly),speculative claims.

Or is that all it is...speculation? Along with assumptions that cater towards vested interests, which realistically speaking would amount to political manouvering and gain for the third parties involved.

As previously stated and to further clarify, you do not accept the findings of this commission- so be it! But I and many others do.
Still no answer to my mcguinness question ... 3rd time of asking.
If sf/ira were-are separate organisations as ye claim how could Gerry Adams claim....the operation was "not authorised by the Army Council, but authorised at a lower level by an authorised person" how would he know that.....?

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

If sf/ira were-are separate organisations as ye claim how could Gerry Adams claim....the operation was "not authorised by the Army Council, but authorised at a lower level by an authorised person" how would he know that.....?

As Sinn Féin played the primary role within the peace process representing nationalists and republicans, one could reasonably deduce the fact that Adams developed contacts within the hierarchy of the paramilitaries involved.

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

As Sinn Féin played the primary role within the peace process representing nationalists and republicans, one could reasonably deduce the fact that Adams developed contacts within the hierarchy of the paramilitaries involved.

Indeed back in the 1970s eh?
Still no answer about bold martin eh?? 4th time now

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

Indeed back in the 1970s eh?
Still no answer about bold martin eh?? 4th time now

I do not know what the question is.

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

I do not know what the question is.

So he never was a member of the ira and only knew some of them due to his role in the pp Yea right....Derry/bloddy Sunday??? Ring a bell?

sure joe

RandomName2 wrote: »

The Irish Free State was a state that was created to give the catholics [sic] control over part of ireland, because they had the majority and were armed to the teeth. agreeing to this partition was the cause of thousands of deaths and was an act of cowardice by both the english [sic] and unionists.



And that claim is by the right of our manifest destiny to overspread and to possess the whole of the island which Providence has given us

the reason IRELAND was given control over part of IRELAND was because it was rightfully theirs. the clue might be in the name

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

So he never was a member of the ira and only knew some of them due to his role in the pp Yea right....Derry/bloddy Sunday??? Ring a bell?

I cannot speak for him, besides the fact he has stated he was a member and left in 1974.

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

I cannot speak for him, besides the fact he has stated he was a member and left in 1974.

In 1973, he was convicted by the Republic of Ireland's Special Criminal Court, after being caught with a car containing 250 lb (113 kg) of explosives and nearly 5,000 rounds of ammunition. He refused to recognise the court, and was sentenced to six months imprisonment. In court, he declared his membership of the Provisional IRA without equivocation: 'We have fought against the killing of our people... I am a member of Óglaigh na hÉireann and very, very proud of it'
After his release, and another conviction in the Republic for IRA membership, he became increasingly prominent in Sinn Féin, the political wing of the republican movement.

Ghandee

barney 20v wrote: »

In 1973, he was convicted by the Republic of Ireland's Special Criminal Court, after being caught with a car containing 250 lb (113 kg) of explosives and nearly 5,000 rounds of ammunition. He refused to recognise the court, and was sentenced to six months imprisonment. In court, he declared his membership of the Provisional IRA without equivocation: 'We have fought against the killing of our people... I am a member of Óglaigh na hÉireann and very, very proud of it'
After his release, and another conviction in the Republic for IRA membership, he became increasingly prominent in Sinn Féin, the political wing of the republican movement.

What's your point

We know McGuinness was in the 'Ra' sure he's admitted it himself.

Get to the point please.

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

What's your point

We know McGuinness was in the 'Ra' sure he's admitted it himself.

Get to the point please.

I have made my point a number of days ago.

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

What's your point

We know McGuinness was in the 'Ra' sure he's admitted it himself.

Get to the point please.

"I have never been in the IRA. I don't have any sway over the IRA" a direct quote from the bold martin from 1993.... Double convictions for being a member of the ira but he's not sure.... A lot of vague heads in sf eh?

Ghandee

barney 20v wrote: »

I have made my point a number of days ago.

Well that answers the question, no doubt about that one.:rolleyes:

You're telling everyone on this thread about Martin McGuinness' past a past he freely admits.

Its not like you've just revealed the third secret of Fatima for Christs sake

So I'll ask again, what is your point?

Do you have one?

If you want to tell us all something we already know why not copy and paste a wikipedia article for the love of God?

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

Well that answers the question, no doubt about that one.:rolleyes:

You're telling everyone on this thread about Martin McGuinness' past a past he freely admits.

Its not like you've just revealed the third secret of Fatima for Christs sake

So I'll ask again, what is your point?

Do you have one?

If you want to tell us all something we already know why not copy and paste a wikipedia article for the love of God?

Please refer to my previous post re his 1993 statement

sure joe

barney 20v wrote: »

Please refer to my previous post re his 1993 statement

maybe this cowardly state while bending over backwards to appease the british (who through their own army and security forces and the paramilatary organisations they were supporting were killing irish citizens) whould have jailed somebody who admitted volunteering to protect his/her community and free them from their british rulers

Ghandee

barney 20v wrote: »

"I have never been in the IRA. I don't have any sway over the IRA" a direct quote from the bold martin from 1993.... Double convictions for being a member of the ira but he's not sure.... A lot of vague heads in sf eh?

So he told a lie, then went on to come clean about it......

What's your point?


Is he still denying it

The brits told us they were opened fired on by the Provos in Derry, and in self defence shot 27 unarmed civilians, 13 of them fatally.

38 years later, and after countless investigations and enquiries (not to mention the millions of pounds spent) they were found to not have 'been truthful' and admitted their involvement.

Similar?

OCorcrain

barney 20v wrote: »

In 1973, he was convicted by the Republic of Ireland's Special Criminal Court, after being caught with a car containing 250 lb (113 kg) of explosives and nearly 5,000 rounds of ammunition. He refused to recognise the court, and was sentenced to six months imprisonment. In court, he declared his membership of the Provisional IRA without equivocation: 'We have fought against the killing of our people... I am a member of Óglaigh na hÉireann and very, very proud of it'
After his release, and another conviction in the Republic for IRA membership, he became increasingly prominent in Sinn Féin, the political wing of the republican movement.

As I said, I will not judge the people of the north who were sucked into the downward spiral of violence as a result of decades of intolerance, brutality discrimination and misunderstanding. They tried to defend their communities because the police and army would not and achieve equal civil rights that as human beings that they were depried of.

I will not condone or defend the unneccessary gratuitous violence and bloodshed or atrocities committed by all the parties involved, and neither does Sinn Féin.

Both communities suffered, peace was achieved, a peace that is now in jeopardy. All I know is that they succeeded in bringing about a peace between the ordinary and decent people involved, and I will not continue to bring up the past and the Troubles like some people do to deflect from the economic exploitation by an unjust predatory capitalist system and a government who facilitates such. We can easily bring up what happened to the nationalist community every day in the Dáil but we won't except when we are slandered in the Dáil by cowards and hypcrits using parliamentary priviledge to avoid being sued. Who are also quick to associate and libel even young, educated middle class members such as myself with criminality.

We concentrate on the here and now, we a I wish some people did the same

No matter what happens we will always be seen as pariahs by certain people, a party of criminals, with unsound and unrealistic economic and social policies, and are nothing but populist.

I will relish the day that comes when we are in government when we prove these people wrong.

barney 20v

sure joe wrote: »

maybe this cowardly state while bending over backwards to appease the british (who through their own army and security forces and the paramilatary organisations they were supporting were killing irish citizens) whould have jailed somebody who admitted volunteering to protect his/her community and free them from their british rulers

Again you fail to address the point I made.... Sf double standards etc etc. He admitted it and was rightfully convicted, he was a terrorist .
Then he denied it Completely.... Which is it gents? I used mcguinness as an example of sf trying to shove they're past under the rug while trying to dupe the working classes into voting for they're left wing unsustainable sociaL/economic policies .

barney 20v

OCorcrain wrote: »

As I said, I will not judge the people of the north who were sucked into the downward spiral of violence as a result of decades of intolerance, brutality discrimination and misunderstanding. They tried to defend their communities because the police and army would not and achieve equal civil rights that as human beings that they were depried of.

I will not condone or defend the unneccessary gratuitous violence and bloodshed or atrocities committed by all the parties involved, and neither does Sinn Féin.

Both communities suffered, peace was achieved, a peace that is now in jeopardy. All I know is that they succeeded in bringing about a peace between the ordinary and decent people involved, and I will not continue to bring up the past and the Troubles like some people do to deflect from the economic exploitation by an unjust predatory capitalist system and a government who facilitates such. We can easily bring up what happened to the nationalist community every day in the Dáil but we won't except when we are slandered in the Dáil by cowards and hypcrits using parliamentary priviledge to avoid being sued. Who are also quick to associate and libel even young, educated middle class members such as myself with criminality.

We concentrate on the here and now, we a I wish some people did the same

No matter what happens we will always be seen as pariahs by certain people, a party of criminals, with unsound and unrealistic economic and social policies, and are nothing but populist.

I will relish the day that comes when we are in government when we prove these people wrong.

No matter what happens we will always be seen as pariahs by certain people, a party of criminals, with unsound and unrealistic economic and social policies, and are nothing but populist.
Got it in one... Good job!

megafan

Ghandee wrote: »

So he told a lie, then went on to come clean about it......

What's your point?


Is he still denying it

The initial Question asked was "Can SF transform into a leading party in next 5-10 years?" Unlikely... as it seems too many unanswered questions & blood on hands of party members!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_McConville

Ghandee

barney 20v wrote: »

Again you fail to address the point I made.... Sf double standards etc etc. He admitted it and was rightfully convicted, he was a terrorist .
Then he denied it Completely.... Which is it gents? I used mcguinness as an example of sf trying to shove they're past under the rug while trying to dupe the working classes into voting for they're left wing unsustainable sociaL/economic policies .

The past is the past.


You do know about FF's past right?

Anyone ever teach you about the blueshirts stalwart support of fascism/nazism?

Labour/worker party/stickies?

As for your economic remarks, the last guys plan worked well, and the 'new crowd' who promised they'd change all that those before them did, continue down the same track.

Somebody somewhere got their economic policies severely wrong, and someone in the driving seat now has learnt little from past mistakes.

RandomName2

OCorcrain wrote: »

Wrong in the context that your argument is that it was solely the objective of the independence movement to seek a Catholic state, a core principle of Irish Republicanism is secularism, a principle many of the uniformed seem to be unaware of.

Well it's not my argument as such, but it doesn't really matter what a movement claims to be, but more what it practices is important. Catholicism was seen, among other things, to embody Irish nationalism, and was as such accorded great privileges within the state, until relatively recently.

Besides which, most Republicans have, and still do, claim their republicanism exclusively due to an opposition to monarchy (i.e. the UK) rather than anything else embodied by the term. If a core belief of Irish Republicans is secularism, why is it that so few are? The 'republican parties', FF, FG, and SF are not secular. Of the three, FG is the nearest to being 'secular', and indeed, is the least 'republican'.

It is also demonstrable that equality was a somewhat Orwellian concept in the infancy of our state - as it tends to be in those that lack confidence in their own national identity. Nationalism, and the concepts of what encompassed Irish nationalism, were pursued to the exclusion of all other considerations. Automatically fail your entire education if you don't pass Irish? You betcha!

Ghandee

megafan wrote: »

The initial Question asked was "Can SF transform into a leading party in next 5-10 years?" Unlikely... as it seems too many unanswered questions & blood on hands of party members!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_McConville

So, SF (the political party) was responsible for Jean McConvilles death :eek:

Is that really what you're telling me?

megafan

Ghandee wrote: »

So, SF (the political party) was responsible for Jean McConvilles death :eek:

Is that really what you're telling me?

Ask the SF leader to come clean!:rolleyes:

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

So, SF (the political party) was responsible for Jean McConvilles death :eek:

Is that really what you're telling me?

Here is a sf response to her murder....
] In January 2005, Sinn Féin party chairman, Mitchel McLaughlin, claimed that the killing of Jean McConville was not a criminal act, given the context of the Troubles and of the belief that she had been a British spy....... Murder is murder...

Ghandee

megafan wrote: »

Ask the SF leader to come clean!:rolleyes:

Come clean about what exactly?

RandomName2

Ghandee wrote: »

As for your economic remarks, the last guys plan worked well, and the 'new crowd' who promised they'd change all that those before them did, continue down the same track.

Somebody somewhere got their economic policies severely wrong, and someone in the driving seat now has learnt little from past mistakes.

Hey, give it a rest. The past is the past. Everyone makes mistakes, and the Irish economy was just collateral damage for a policy of growth that was otherwise justified.

barney 20v

Nothing to say about sf chairmans comments regarding the murder of Jean McConville ....?ghandee.....