Can SF transform into a leading party in next 5-10 years?

Nervous Nigel

sure joe wrote: »

and when it is. F.F, F.G & Lab should be asked what they done about. bloody sunday, british collusion with unionist paramiltaries, the shooting of unarmed civilians including children by british security forces and why after a british army led bombings of dublin, monaghan and dundalk the irish goverment and gardai handed over evidence to the british.

All of which happened in a different country.

Sinn Fein/IRA are nothing more than opportunistic thugs. They wear a fake cloak of Republicanism, but what about the protection rackets, the drug smuggling, etc?

All political parties have faults, but Sinn Fein/IRA and Fine Gael are like the Nazi Party and the Conservative Party in terms of morality.

megafan

Ghandee wrote: »

Come clean about what exactly?

How about Everything he was involved in?

Ghandee

barney 20v wrote: »

Nothing to say about sf chairmans comments regarding the murder of Jean McConville ....?ghandee.....

Was Jean McConville working for the British and feeding information to British agents?

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

Was Jean McConville working for the British and feeding information to British agents?

I don't know... Was she given a day in court? Oh wait.... Its sf/ira we're talking about. Anything at all to say re his comments?

Ghandee

megafan wrote: »

How about Everything he was involved in?

What was he involved in?

If you have evidence that Gerry Adams was involved in her murder, I strongly suggest you present yourself to your local Garda/PSNI station and divulge your information immediately.


You do have evidence right?

Barney there will fill you in on the importance of not relying on 'hear say' as proof of something.

Right Barney?

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

What was he involved in?

If you have evidence that Gerry Adams was involved in her murder, I strongly suggest you present yourself to your local Garda/PSNI station and divulge your information immediately.


You do have evidence right?

Barney there will fill you in on the importance of not relying on 'hear say' as proof of something.

Right Barney?

More sf bs.... Stop trying to deflect from the question asked.
Do you agree with the sf chairman's comments regarding her murder yes or no?

Ghandee

barney 20v wrote: »

More sf bs.... Stop trying to deflect from the question asked.
Do you agree with the sf chairman's comments regarding her murder yes or no?

My views on Mitchell McLaughlin's statement are irrelevant, they were his words.

megafan

Ghandee wrote: »

My views on Mitchell McLaughlin's statement are irrelevant, they were his words.

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

My views on Mitchell McLaughlin's statement are irrelevant, they were his words.

It was an official sf response though...that makes it very relevant . Do you support this position yes or no?

Ghandee

barney 20v wrote: »

It was an official sf response though...that makes it very relevant . Do you support this position yes or no?

No.

Her death was regrettable IMO.

What did Gerry Adams have to say about her death?

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

No.

Her death was regrettable IMO.

What did Gerry Adams have to say about her death?

Please do enlighten me as to his quotes about this subject

Ghandee

barney 20v wrote: »

Please do enlighten me as to his quotes about this subject

Gladly.

"expressed his deep regret at the injustice that was inflicted on the McConville family by republicans".

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12517623

blahfckingblah

this will likely be closed soon it has gone in the same direction of every thread about SF/ the north "what about Gerry McCabe/Jean McConville?" same reason I rarely come to the politics part of the forum anymore

Ghandee

blahfckingblah wrote: »

this will likely be closed soon it has gone in the same direction of every thread about SF/ the north "what about Gerry McCabe/Jean McConville?" same reason I rarely come to the politics part of the forum anymore

They're merely following the examples set by our current leaders in the coalition.

Valid question about the economy? Jean McConville
Valid Queston about excessive salaries/expense system? Jerry McCabe.

barney 20v

Ghandee wrote: »

They're merely following the examples set by our current leaders in the coalition.

Valid question about the economy? Jean McConville
Valid Queston about excessive salaries/expense system? Jerry McCabe.

GARDAI will have to arrest Gerry Adams if secret IRA tapes held in the US are handed over to the authorities in the North, the family of murdered Jean McConville has claimed.

Relatives of the mother of 10 have said the onus will eventually be on gardai to question the Sinn Fein president over her kidnapping, disappearance and murder back in 1972.

Ex-IRA members including the late Brendan 'Darkie' Hughes have claimed Mr Adams gave the order for Ms McConville to be "disappeared" after being murdered. She was branded an informer, a claim which has been disputed by her family for four decades

The US Supreme Court is to rule this autumn on whether tape recordings of IRA activists held by Boston College can be handed over to the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

The PSNI wants to obtain recorded material in the college's archive that relates to Ms McConville's murder.

The PSNI is now only one step away from seizing the tapes that could prove highly damaging to Mr Adams's claim that he was never a member or active inside the IRA.
I have twice stated on this thread that I have a poor opinion of ALL the current parties in the dail, don't assume because I seek to highlight sf shortcomings that I am in favour of fg/fg lab etc etc.

Sf supporters need to answer these pertinent questions because you can NOT be taken seriously until these issues are dealt with.

OCorcrain

blahfckingblah wrote: »

this will likely be closed soon it has gone in the same direction of every thread about SF/ the north "what about Gerry McCabe/Jean McConville?" same reason I rarely come to the politics part of the forum anymore

And it is always the same people who derail those threads.

megafan

Ghandee wrote: »

They're merely following the examples set by our current leaders in the coalition.

Valid question about the economy? Jean McConville
Valid Queston about excessive salaries/expense system? Jerry McCabe.

Well isn't that the answer to original question!... Let SF & it's leaders clear up these questions & might help their image (or not?)

Godge

blahfckingblah wrote: »

this will likely be closed soon it has gone in the same direction of every thread about SF/ the north "what about Gerry McCabe/Jean McConville?" same reason I rarely come to the politics part of the forum anymore

I keep saying that it is Sinn Fein and Sinn Fein only who can end all debate on these issues.

Apologise for the murders of Garda McCabe and others like Garda Fallon, admit they were wrong at the time and wrong now, condemn those who carried out the murders. Tell the truth about the public representatives and their involvement in the campaign. The real past of Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris, Dessie Ellis, Martin McGuinness needs to be put before the Irish people. Find the bodies of the disappeared, Sinn Fein either know where they are or they know people who know where they are.

Once Sinn Fein have done all that, nobody will be able to derail any thread with these questions.

blahfckingblah

so you think the way to get answers is to ask on a thread whereby Sinn Fein have no official representative.

maccored

I totally agree, but unless you can get the british government, british army, various secret security units etc to air all their dirty laundry as well, then its a bit of a one sided demand.

Godge wrote: »

I keep saying that it is Sinn Fein and Sinn Fein only who can end all debate on these issues.

Apologise for the murders of Garda McCabe and others like Garda Fallon, admit they were wrong at the time and wrong now, condemn those who carried out the murders. Tell the truth about the public representatives and their involvement in the campaign. The real past of Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris, Dessie Ellis, Martin McGuinness needs to be put before the Irish people. Find the bodies of the disappeared, Sinn Fein either know where they are or they know people who know where they are.

Once Sinn Fein have done all that, nobody will be able to derail any thread with these questions.

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

I totally agree, but unless you can get the british government, british army, various secret security units etc to air all their dirty laundry as well, then its a bit of a one sided demand.

Are the British government/army etc looking to get into government in this state???
Sinn fein are and we only require the truth from them.
It is a one sided demand, you are correct.

This is about sf... No one else

maccored

its not that simple. the questions you asked are part of a much wider issue, and if you expect one part of that equation to delve into the murky past - a place where the answers you seek might no longer exist or be traceable in the first place - then its only fair to make sure you demand the same of everyone involved.

barney 20v wrote: »

Are the British government/army etc looking to get into government in this state???
Sinn fein are and we only require the truth from them.
It is a one sided demand, you are correct.

This is about sf... No one else

maccored

otherwise you'll just be spinning your wheels. Besides - only people high up in SF have any hope (in your eyes) of telling you, so you should send them an email, get in touch and ask them.

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

its not that simple. the questions you asked are part of a much wider issue, and if you expect one part of that equation to delve into the murky past - a place where the answers you seek might no longer exist or be traceable in the first place - then its only fair to make sure you demand the same of everyone involved.

Only one part ie,sinn fein are seeking to govern this state.
IMHO they must address these serious issues before being taken seriously ....just my opinion!

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

otherwise you'll just be spinning your wheels. Besides - only people high up in SF have any hope (in your eyes) of telling you, so you should send them an email, get in touch and ask them.

They have been asked by our elected government... They decline to comment.

maccored

I disagree. Hard work will get them taken seriously.

maccored

When? With the snide remarks to ML? Yeah - Im sure she knows alright :rolleyes:

barney 20v wrote: »

They have been asked by our elected government... They decline to comment.

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

When? With the snide remarks to ML? Yeah - Im sure she knows alright :rolleyes:

One recent example,
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/-Irish-parliament-suspended-after-Enda-Kenny-and-Gerry-Adams-row-over-IRA-disappeared-Jean-McConville-183151411.html?mob-ua=Ysurely good bold Gerry will know...?

maccored

“You might some day tell the truth about the tragedy and the remorse and about the compassion that should have been shown for Jean McConville. Maybe you might do that, Deputy Adams.”

soooo .... he basically accused adams of taking part in her death. and you wonder why anyone would find that annoying?

maccored

barney 20v wrote: »

surely good bold Gerry will know...?

explain to me how in gods name would good bold Gerry know. really. He knew the killers? Or he knows who did? Maybe he has a map in his head of exactly where all the missing bodies are?

Where though is there any kind of evidence to suggest he does? And if there is any, why isnt it being used?

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

soooo .... he basically accused adams of taking part in her death. and you wonder why anyone would find that annoying?

I suspect that ends knows more than you or I tbh... Just on Gerry, a little excerpt...
GARDAI will have to arrest Gerry Adams if secret IRA tapes held in the US are handed over to the authorities in the North, the family of murdered Jean McConville has claimed.

Relatives of the mother of 10 have said the onus will eventually be on gardai to question the Sinn Fein president over her kidnapping, disappearance and murder back in 1972.

Ex-IRA members including the late Brendan 'Darkie' Hughes have claimed Mr Adams gave the order for Ms McConville to be "disappeared" after being murdered. She was branded an informer, a claim which has been disputed by her family for four decades

The US Supreme Court is to rule this autumn on whether tape recordings of IRA activists held by Boston College can be handed over to the Police Service of Northern Ireland.


The PSNI wants to obtain recorded material in the college's archive that relates to Ms McConville's murder.

The PSNI is now only one step away from seizing the tapes that could prove highly damaging to Mr Adams's claim that he was never a member or active inside the IRA.

maccored

Justice isnt based on what you suspect. I think thats the problem there. its easy to fling mud at a party thats just come out of a conflict. apply a bit of logic and tell me how you expect to get the answers. Did the IRA keep logs of all their actions? like, them being secret and all (probably not).

This is useless politiking by avoiding important national questions by asking impossible questions.

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

Justice isnt based on what you suspect. I think thats the problem there.

Indeed... Only discussion here, but in fairness I am not looking to prosecute anyone! Just giving my viewpoint .

maccored

Then please answer these for me

barney 20v wrote: »

Indeed... Only discussion here, but in fairness I am not looking to prosecute anyone! Just giving my viewpoint .

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

Then please answer these for me

Sorry your link is not specific ... So I can not respond.

maccored

As below. Mainly, how do you reckon gerry adams has these answers. Or is it just your suspicion again?

maccored wrote: »

explain to me how in gods name would good bold Gerry know. really. He knew the killers? Or he knows who did? Maybe he has a map in his head of exactly where all the missing bodies are?

Where though is there any kind of evidence to suggest he does? And if there is any, why isnt it being used?

barney 20v wrote: »

Sorry your link is not specific ... So I can not respond.

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

As below. Mainly, how do you reckon gerry adams has these answers. Or is it just your suspicion again?

I said sinn fein as a party need to answer these questions... You brought up ml so I provided the link as stated -a recent example.
That link happened to be about Gerry. Nothing more.
Although he has Been president of sf since 1983 so I reckon IMHO he knows more than ml etc... Clear enough for ya?

maccored

i still dont understand where you expect the answers to come from.

Im going to do some suspecting this time, but I suspect theres no records anywhere of exactly who done what and who is buried where, bar the small group of people that would have been involved.

I honestly think if SF knew any more info they would have provided it, but its just been lost with history. It was a violent conflict so the people who did have the information could have been killed or locked up years ago. As I said - its a great way to divert attention from current issues.

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

i still dont understand where you expect the answers to come from.

Im going to do some suspecting this time, but I suspect theres no records anywhere of exactly who done what and who is buried where, bar the small group of people that would have been involved.

I honestly think if SF knew any more info they would have provided it, but its just been lost with history. It was a violent conflict so the people who did have the information could have been killed or locked up years ago. As I said - its a great way to divert attention from current issues.

Agreed fg in particular have used /abused the issue to score political points in the dail.
But I still personally feel more effort needs to be made to convince me and others to view sf as legitimate and worthy of my vote.
The issue is relevant both to this thread and real politics in this republic

maccored

I dont really know what more they can do, other than repeat words just so people can hear them saying it. I doubt if they have the answers to the questions.

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

I dont really know what more they can do, other than repeat words just so people can hear them saying it. I doubt if they have the answers to the questions.

They know a lot more than they say... We differ in opinion on this fair enough.. But they have not convinced me or many others.

maccored

unless you can prove that in a court of law, then it's basically an opinion. An unless you have some kind of proof, a pretty biased one.

barney 20v

maccored wrote: »

unless you can prove that in a court of law, then it's basically an opinion. An unless you have some kind of proof, a pretty biased one.

Opinions are ,by definition biased.... It is not my responsibility to prove anything anywhere.
Right here right now sf will never get my vote #outstanding issues
I understand many sf supporters find my viewpoint hard to comprehend .

megafan

blahfckingblah wrote: »

so you think the way to get answers is to ask on a thread whereby Sinn Fein have no official representative.

The original question to this tread was "Can SF transform into a leading party in next 5-10yrs"... Well unless the present leadership come clean & explains their involvement in murders maimings & bombings they'll find it hard to transform the party..... now where & what forum they use is their problem but a question was asked on Boards.ie!

Zubeneschamali

maccored wrote: »

i still dont understand where you expect the answers to come from.

No-one expects Adams to answer these questions.

We just intend to keep asking until he dies.

sure joe

barney 20v wrote: »

I suspect that ends knows more than you or I tbh... Just on Gerry, a little excerpt...
GARDAI will have to arrest Gerry Adams if secret IRA tapes held in the US are handed over to the authorities in the North, the family of murdered Jean McConville has claimed.

Relatives of the mother of 10 have said the onus will eventually be on gardai to question the Sinn Fein president over her kidnapping, disappearance and murder back in 1972.

Ex-IRA members including the late Brendan 'Darkie' Hughes have claimed Mr Adams gave the order for Ms McConville to be "disappeared" after being murdered. She was branded an informer, a claim which has been disputed by her family for four decades

The US Supreme Court is to rule this autumn on whether tape recordings of IRA activists held by Boston College can be handed over to the Police Service of Northern Ireland.


The PSNI wants to obtain recorded material in the college's archive that relates to Ms McConville's murder.

The PSNI is now only one step away from seizing the tapes that could prove highly damaging to Mr Adams's claim that he was never a member or active inside the IRA.

in my opinion it would be a struggle for the ruc to get brendan darkie hughes into court to testify against gerry. its strange how people who hate sinn fein are so willing to accept what a member of the ira has to say, so long as it backs up what they think about somebody who was never in the ira

Crooked Jack

Godge wrote: »

I keep saying that it is Sinn Fein and Sinn Fein only who can end all debate on these issues.

Apologise for the murders of Garda McCabe and others like Garda Fallon, admit they were wrong at the time and wrong now,

Sinn Fein did not kill Gardas McCabe or Fallon. The provisional IRA shot the armed Garda McCabe during a botched robbery. A small group called Saor Eire, who were formed before the provos ever saw the light of day, shot Garda Fallon. Are Sinn Fein to apologise for every killing they didnt have a hand in, because that will take some time? And before you trot out the usual whinging about martin ferris meeting the volunteers who killed Garda McCabe on their release do you also hold to account family members who meet a killer after his release?
They served their time and were released. Furthermore, while most people will rightly condemn their actions nobody can doubt their commitment to peace. When the Free state government reneged on its agreement to release them under the GFA they could have pushed for their early freedom, instead they released this statement.

"We deeply regret and apologise for this and the hurt and grief we have caused to their families.There was never any intent to attack any members of the Garda Siochana.
We are qualifying IRA prisoners under the Good Friday Agreement and this has been confirmed by the High Court and the Supreme Court.
The Irish Government have an obligation to release us. They have refused to do so and are now presenting our release as an obstacle to negotiations and an agreement.
For this reason we do not want our release to be part of any further negotiations with the Irish Government.
We are totally committed to the peace process.
We will not allow ourselves to be used as political pawns or hostages to undermine this process. The cause of lasting peace is too important."

So, an apology and admission of wrongdoing from the very men who pulled the trigger. The IRA also apologised to all non-combatants killed during the war. What more can you want in this regard?

Godge wrote: »

condemn those who carried out the murders.

As soon as the killing happened Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein condemned it repeatedly and unreservedly.

Godge wrote: »

Tell the truth about the public representatives and their involvement in the campaign. The real past of Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris, Dessie Ellis, Martin McGuinness needs to be put before the Irish people.

Sinn Fein have been the only party pushing for a full and unrestricted truth and reconciliation process, one they have said they would fully engage in. The people not supporting this are unionists and the british government. Truth and reconciliation can only come from all sides, not one. Not only would it be personally daft for former IRA volunteers to admit their actions with no reciprocation from the British state and its unionist proxies but it would also be detrimental to the peace process.

Godge wrote: »

Find the bodies of the disappeared, Sinn Fein either know where they are or they know people who know where they are.

Once again, Sinn Fein have vociferously called for any information about the disappeared to be handed over to the ICLVR. Again, these people were not disappeared by Sinn Fein. The republican movement is a broad family and it's just silly to expect a handful of members to know everybody and everything that happened.

Godge wrote: »

Once Sinn Fein have done all that, nobody will be able to derail any thread with these questions.

Sinn Fein have done all that. The simple fact is people like yourself could care less about Garda McCabe or wether or not Sinn Fein apologise for things they have (or more likely haven't) done. You just want a convenient stick to beat the party with when they start raising very pertinent questions about government policy or when it looks like the party's message is getting across to more and more people.
Threads like this are pointless because people like yourself are every bit as biased, dogmatic and unwilling to even accept the possibility of change as you claim republicans are.

Happyman42

megafan wrote: »

Well unless the present leadership come clean & explains their involvement in murders maimings & bombings they'll find it hard to transform the party

What do you propose is done with the answers you want to those questions?('We were involved in x killing, y maiming') Do you want to imprison these leaders?
Have you any opinion on the rationale behind the setting aside of past wrongs as agreed in the GFA? Can you see any dividend currently in the setting aside of those actions? Can you see any damage to the process that might be done if SF where to begin fingering people within their own organisation, can you see how destabilising that would be? We all have to accept that things happened that we wish hadn't, just like Mrs Winsdor has.

Also how politically expedient or intelligent do you think it is to willfully hide information about the disappeared, considering the ongoing damage that it is inflicting on their political progress? Is it not more rational to believe that they genuinely don't know the answers? I for one cannot fathom why they wouldn't reveal if they knew, it makes no political sense to allow it to continue if they have the info. Like him or hate him, but Adams is clearly the most astute political leader this country has seen in a long long time.
SF have totally transformed from the party they where 15 or 20 years ago, and have clear aspirations to be a leading party here, I don't believe they would allow the continuing damage not answering these questions is doing if they could help it.

golfball37

People in Eire hate SF/IRA because they are teh personification of everything they glorify from history. Collins/Connolly/De Valera etc.

Like them or not their members put their lives on teh line for something they believed in. The current politcal and media establishment which is made up of cowards cannot live with this so they become demons.

Its a classical approach to self hate or as I would put it post colononial self loathing.

I hate what the IRA did in our name but I'd take someone like Martin McGuinness [warts and all] over anyone in Dail Eireann. Can you imagine 1 member of FG/Lab/FF defending a community with arms?

Zubeneschamali

golfball37 wrote: »

Can you imagine 1 member of FG/Lab/FF defending a community with arms?

Can you imagine any of them strapping a member of their own community, a cook, into a van with a with 1000lb bomb, and then forcing him to drive to a checkpoint, and then blowing him up?