Absence of Tricolour

Jimoslimos

LivelineDipso wrote: »

Do they really? Or do they just create the next generations of FF/FG voting ****?

Thread derail...

LordSutch

Dodge wrote: »

Exactly that. People used the term gold in a snub to the 'orange side' (not that anyone ever used that term, but you know what I mean). Was used fairly liberally when i was growing up.

Not sure what the current generation of kids are picking up but it seems more green, white and orange these days

Surely a snub to the Orange side would be an anathema to the unity of Green & Orange? but I still ask, what did the gold signify?
Definately not wealth, was it?

gbee

LordSutch wrote: »

Definately not wealth, was it?

Prosperity.

LordSutch

Well up until the 1990s Ireland (EIRE) was hardly prosperous.

Duckworth_Luas

LordSutch wrote: »

Surely a snub to the Orange side would be an anathema to the unity of Green & Orange? but I still ask, what did the gold signify? definately not wealth, was it?

Traditionally the colours of nationalist Ireland were green and gold since the United Irishmen.

This was continued by other Irish nationalist groups like the Fenians, Irish Brigade, Irish Volunteers etc up until the Anglo-Irish War when the modern tricolour, introduced in 1848, was adopted.

Leftist

the only way it ever was considered a representation for 'prosperity' was because someone had to concoct a reason for the colour. The change by some to gold happened because of spite towards the orange colour and what it represented. Any legitimisation of the bastardisation came afterwards and it's absolutely ridiculous anyway. Prosperity ffs. Sounds like some tinpot west african country founded on hip hop.

Rasheed

gbee wrote: »

I can't disagree with that assessment, however, I've seen what goes on from about ten years through teens, and we all know the value of sport, exercise, health, crime and sociability.

Does it outweigh the overall results? I'm not convinced, maybe I'll know in another ten years.

Wha?? Because I'm involved in the GAA, I'm so how politically affiliated?

gbee

Rasheed wrote: »

Wha?? Because I'm involved in the GAA, I'm so how politically affiliated?

As I said, we'll see.

smurgen

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

It does fly in a lot of places around the capital though doesn't it. I'd be wary of going down the American route, I hate the way they plaster their flag over everything.

I'd be of the opposite opinion,i think a flag is a nice way of marking the identity of a place of a county or country. I'm living in geneva at the moment and everywhere you go, hanging off the side of bridges,buildings etc you see massive swiss flags and flags of the canton(county) of geneva,i think it looks great and shows pride. why cant we do the same?

Shenshen

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I don't get why people are so anti-patriotism. I'm not one to go around flying the Irish flag out my window and shouting 'up the Ra'...I'm not that kind of patriotic person. But being Irish is part of who I am. Somebody earlier on said why would nationality be part of your identity. I say it's a huge part. Irish people, in general, are different to Australian people who are different to Korean people, who are different to Botswanian people etc. etc. Each nationality holds its own languages, cultures, 'ways of life'. It's what I find most interesting about travelling, learning different languages and cultures and tasting different food etc.

There's nothing wrong with being patriotic. Being patriotic doesn't automatically mean being an extreme nationalist xenophobic. I hate the way in Ireland if you're seen wearing and Ireland jersey or with a flag at a football match you're considered to be that type of person. It doesn't seem to happen in other countries.

I'd suggest spending some time in Germany, then.
A national team football jersey is about as much nationalism as you can ever get away with there without being considered neo-nazi.

I would agree that the country you grow up in will culturally shape you, mostly in your views and habits. But identity?
There are a lot of things that make up a person's identity, and if nationality becomes a dominant factor it would be an indicator that other aspects are neglected or missing...
Personally, I've got too many of my own achievements to be proud of, I don't need to borrow achievements from my compatriots.

bluecode

The reality is that we don't need a flag to reinforce that we're Irish. Others countries and people do. We're Irish, we're of this country, this land. We don't need a lot of flag waving to prove it. I'd say most old world and European countries have a similar view on their flags. They don't need a cult of the flag to reinforce their identity. I can't be sure but I would guess the countries like Holland or Norway or Finland and most others don't get all worked up about their flags. It's just a detail.

That's a good thing. We don't have to look very far to see how use of flags is negative. Just across the border and the ridiculous fuss over the flying of the Union flag. In particular for the loyalists their whole identity is wrapped up in that flag. So they fly them everywhere. To a ridiculous degree. But what it tells you is that they are not of Ireland. I think deep down they see themselves still as outsiders, colonisers. Their flag is their shield from going native. Becoming Irish, their worst nightmare.

Of course you see tricolours all over the North too but somehow that's more retaliation.

As for the USA, there is a very good reason why the flag is emphasised and why patriotism is drummed into every kid in school. The US is a huge and diverse nation. The only thing keeping them together is the fact that they are Americans first and foremost. It's very important for the unity of the country that being American is very important. I think they learned that from the civil war. Also you have the fact that very few Americans can trace their ancestry more than a few hundred years. All of them came from somewhere else at some point in time.

It's often the same with other new world countries. Lots of flag waving and taking pride in new identity.

It's seems over the top to us. But we Irish know where we're from and we don't need a flag to impress us.

So we don't need tricolours everywhere. Actually we're more likely to see county colours everywhere. That maybe a bad thing in itself. Sometimes I think we Irish are more interested in our county than our country.

As for the flag itself. I never liked it. It's fairly meaningless anyway as of course we are neither united with or at peace with the Orangemen. My own preference would be the old green flag with the golden harp. Much more classy.

Get rid of the tricolour. The IRA stole it off us years ago anyway and ruined it.

Rasheed

gbee wrote: »

As I said, we'll see.

And my father who is involved since the sixties? Or my grandfather since the thirties? All politically unbiased.

I'm sorry, gbee, I don't see the connection with the GAA and the two aforementioned political parties.

Duckjob

We should take the lead from our UK neighbours with their Union Jack jocks. Nothing demonstates classy patriotism like using your national flag to wrap up your meat and two veg.

gbee

Rasheed wrote: »

And my father who is involved since the sixties? Or my grandfather since the thirties? All politically unbiased.

I'm sorry, gbee, I don't see the connection with the GAA and the two aforementioned political parties.

BTW, maybe you should ask the poster who posted this for his opinions too.

tayto lover

Duggy747 wrote: »

I suggest pirate flags.

Everyone likes pirate flags....

What about the German flag? Sure don't they own us now.

gallag

gbee wrote: »

As it is near certain that Scotland will return to independence soon, Northern Ireland is thought to be next to do so and Wales are staying to see how everyone else gets on.

Wait, what? Every statistic is counter to this? Where are you getting your info?

Rasheed

gbee wrote: »

BTW, maybe you should ask the poster who posted this for his opinions too.

Grand. But why don't you give me your opinion first?

Dravokivich

smurgen wrote: »

I'd be of the opposite opinion,i think a flag is a nice way of marking the identity of a place of a county or country. I'm living in geneva at the moment and everywhere you go, hanging off the side of bridges,buildings etc you see massive swiss flags and flags of the canton(county) of geneva,i think it looks great and shows pride. why cant we do the same?

You'd have to be an idiot to forget where the hell you are every 2 doors.

gbee

Rasheed wrote: »

Grand. But why don't you give me your opinion first?

I'm sure I already have, but have not agreed with the poster how posted the comments, you might notice.

_GOD_

The tricolour is feckin boring! Needs a redesign

I suggest a Wolfhound playing electric guitar on the summit of mount Brandon with lightning in the backround!

gbee

gallag wrote: »

Wait, what? Every statistic is counter to this? Where are you getting your info?

BBC Country File mostly. And there was a few programmes about how Great Britain formed and the nationalist leaders and type of parliaments they used to run prior to joining the UK, by force or by treaty.

All recent programmes, Country File runs every Sunday and visits all parts of the UK and Ireland and further afield.

Rasheed

gbee wrote: »

I'm sure I already have, but have not agreed with the poster how posted the comments, you might notice.

gbee wrote: »

They create and support division, despite that I think they do great work for the youth, their roots are still firmly in the past and mentality entrenched.

They create and support division? Of who?

Their roots are firmly in the past? What longstanding organisation hasn't roots in the past?

gbee

_GOD_ wrote: »

The tricolour is feckin boring! Needs a redesign

I suggest a Wolfhound playing electric guitar on the summit of mount Brandon with lightning in the backround!

I could like this, except it reminds me of CIE. No, actually I like it, it's a red Setter in the bus ad, nice imagery.

gbee

Rasheed wrote: »

They create and support division? Of who?

Their roots are firmly in the past? What longstanding organisation hasn't roots in the past?

Make a new thread, tell me where it is, otherwise you're going on ignore for badgering.

Zillah

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Seriously doubt that, Humanity will find another reason to kill each other be it religion,ethnicity etc.

I said arbitrary identities. Religion and ethnicity I include in that.

Chuck Stone

gbee wrote: »

Our flag is stained with blood and embarrassed

Thanks mostly to our colonisers.

awec

I find the American-esque flag waving uber-patriotism to be incredibly cringeworthy, if I'm being honest.

Rasheed

gbee wrote: »

Make a new thread, tell me where it is, otherwise you're going on ignore for badgering.

Great answer. Don't make insinuations about an organisation that you can't back up.

carlmango11

Patriotism always seemed a bit stupid to me. Why is pride such a virtue?

It was a complete accident that you were born in Ireland. Odds are you have not and will not make any great contribution to the nation that it is.

Also I personally find the Irish flag to be cheap and tacky looking because generally I associate it with knackers. Not entirely sure why. Probably because it's tattooed onto so many of their arms :pac: In fact I think one could definitely find an inverse correlation between education and national pride.

im invisible

smurgen wrote: »

I'd be of the opposite opinion,i think a flag is a nice way of marking the identity of a place of a county or country. I'm living in geneva at the moment and everywhere you go, hanging off the side of bridges,buildings etc you see massive swiss flags and flags of the canton(county) of geneva,i think it looks great and shows pride. why cant we do the same?

well, thats one thing that can be said for living in Switzerland, the flag is a big plus

tomlad123

im invisible wrote: »

course he knows the name, he's just using the descriptive 'the Republic of...' to differentiate it from 'the Island of...'

Thank you

Mr_Spaceman

gbee wrote: »

It's the legal part, the part in the UN Charter and so on, the part the flag officially and legally covers.

Like that or not, that's the way it is. Northern Ireland is as good as a separate state and is recognised as such whilst being a willing partner to the UK. As it is near certain that Scotland will return to independence soon, Northern Ireland is thought to be next to do so and Wales are staying to see how everyone else gets on.

Scotland will not be "returning" to independence any time soon.

jaffacakesyum

Shenshen wrote: »

I would agree that the country you grow up in will culturally shape you, mostly in your views and habits. But identity?
There are a lot of things that make up a person's identity, and if nationality becomes a dominant factor it would be an indicator that other aspects are neglected or missing...
Personally, I've got too many of my own achievements to be proud of, I don't need to borrow achievements from my compatriots.

There are a lot of things that make up a person's identity, and nationality is one of them. You can choose to ignore that or not let it shape you or whatever, and that's fine. But don't diss on people who do see it as making up part of their identity. It sure as hell makes up mine, and like I said I don't go around wearing Irish jerseys 24/7, waving around the flag, singing nationalist songs.

There are 100s of things that make up my identity. Being Irish is one of them. Being female is one of them. Being bisexual is one of them. Being tall is another.

Who said anything about nationality becoming a dominant factor? Again, people are assuming if we stick up a few more flags around the place we'll turn into the Irish equivolent of neo-Nazis :rolleyes:

That said, I wouldn't want to go the American route of having flags on literally every building. That's a bit silly. I think Dublin/Ireland is fine the way it is - I wouldn't be out there campaigning to put more flags up, but if they do, so what? Good for them. I see no problem in instilling a little bit of patriotism in people - God knows, we need it after what this country's been through.

Fighting Irish

tomlad123 wrote: »

The flags symbolic meaning is peace between the Catholic and Protestant population living on the island of Ireland.

The flag officially represents the sovereign State of the Republic of Ireland. As a proud citizen of the Republic of Ireland I believe we should fly it high to show our devotion to our country

:rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You are massively and passionately involved in the culture you are born into anyway. And being "anti-Catholic" is a part if that these days. The culture is basically that of the Anglosphere, and you know far more about those countries than, say, France.

Is it?

Culture is simply a way a person is supposed to act and a collection of traditions based on one's birth. I'm born in Ireland, therefore I'm supposed to speak Irish, play GAA and love guineess? How does that work?

Being anti-catholic is not traditional. Trendy, yes, but not traditional. Im mentioned catholicsm because it's somethign else I have no control over, and yet am supposed to identify with.

strobe

Should fly the Jolly Roger from all of them, and then when ever anyone, tourists, foreign press, what have you, asks about it just go all quiet and stare off into the distance and outright refuse to make any comment.

Ye know... for funsies.

pabloh999

carlmango11 wrote: »

In fact I think one could definitely find an inverse correlation between education and national pride.

What a disgusting attitude.

I would think the more pride someone has in where they are living then the less likely they are to vanadalise/litter generally wreck the place

9959

pabloh999 wrote: »

What a disgusting attitude.

I would think the more pride someone has in where they are living then the less likely they are to vanadalise/litter generally wreck the place

Agreed.
Think of all the people - both sides of course - who actively showed their pride over the last 40 years or so, "wreck the place", shudder the thought.

"A ballot paper in one hand and a sweeping brush in this hand", I think that's what Danny Morrison said.

Do bombs wreck the place?

pabloh999

9959 wrote: »

Agreed.
Think of all the people - both sides of course - who actively showed their pride over the last 40 years or so, "wreck the place", shudder the thought.

"A ballot paper in one hand and a sweeping brush in this hand", I think that's what Danny Morrison said.

Do bombs wreck the place?

Ye know it is possible to be proud of where your from and not want to bomb your neighbouring country, or whatever you were getting at.

mikemac1

gbee wrote: »

On that note, Cork used to fly the Confederate Flag ~ it is more or less banned now, well we tried.

Banned?

They still have it at Cork matches

Nobody banned it

9959

pabloh999 wrote: »

Ye know it is possible to be proud of where your from and not want to bomb your neighbouring country, or whatever you were getting at.

True

LuckyLloyd

seamus wrote: »

Can't stand individuals flying flags. I'm inherently suspicious of people who consider their nationality to be an important part of their identity, it means they're more likely to be bigots.

States fly flags to identify themselves. Individuals shouldn't.

Meh, while I understand a distaste of the lowest common denominator type of nationalism, I think it is shortsighted and fundamentally incorrect to deny the genuine effect being Irish has on people. See how most Irish people gravitate towards each other when overseas and go to bat for each other in a way other nationalities don't. We share particular cultural experiences and traditions. Irish people I know who are very 'non Irish' (for want of a better term) tend to have been raised in very non religous / non traditional households.

It is true to say that it is possible to be born and raised in Ireland and not feel in tune or beholden to a particular set of Irish values or beliefs - or to contend that such things are manafactured and arbitary. But the majority of Irish people carry them with them for better or worse and, as such, it does help to shape and define who they are to varying extents.

carlmango11 wrote: »

In fact I think one could definitely find an inverse correlation between education and national pride.

Hmm, some of the most intelligent and well educated people I know are fiercely proud to be Irish. That doesn't mean they aren't critical of the failings in Irish society or unable to identify where particularly 'Irish' traits and customs are lacking.

I think a lot of the posting in this thread is a reaction to the most redundant stereotype type of Irish nationalism - the Wolfe Tone / IRA sympatiser / Celtic fan shadow figure. Those types do exist, but they are a tiny minority and it seems a shame that their presence produces thoughts like I've quoted above.

mackerski

tomlad123 wrote: »

I was waiting for this comment. We are lacking just that. That may be the problem

Not unless you can show us why it's a problem. You don't get a whole lot of line dancing these days either. But is it a problem?

9959

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Meh, while I understand a distaste of the lowest common denominator type of nationalism, I think it is shortsighted and fundamentally incorrect to deny the genuine effect being Irish has on people. See how most Irish people gravitate towards each other when overseas and go to bat for each other in a way other nationalities don't. We share particular cultural experiences and traditions. Irish people I know who are very 'non Irish' (for want of a better term) tend to have been raised in very non religous / non traditional households.

It is true to say that it is possible to be born and raised in Ireland and not feel in tune or beholden to a particular set of Irish values or beliefs - or to contend that such things are manafactured and arbitary. But the majority of Irish people carry them with them for better or worse and, as such, it does help to shape and define who they are to varying extents.



Hmm, some of the most intelligent and well educated people I know are fiercely proud to be Irish. That doesn't mean they aren't critical of the failings in Irish society or unable to identify where particularly 'Irish' traits and customs are lacking.

I think a lot of the posting in this thread is a reaction to the most redundant stereotype type of Irish nationalism - the Wolfe Tone / IRA sympatiser / Celtic fan shadow figure. Those types do exist, but they are a tiny minority and it seems a shame that their presence produces thoughts like I've quoted above.

To which particular set of "Irish values or beliefs" are you referring?

also

Do Irish expats and holiday makers "go to bat" for each other more so than say expats or holiday makers from Ausrtalia, England or America, if so then that's news to me, we must in some way be superior, world beaters in fact, in the 'batting' department.
You'll never best the Irish indeed!

minidazzler

Patriotism, the belief that your own country is the greatest in the world by virtue of you being born there?

9959

minidazzler wrote: »

Patriotism, the belief that your own country is the greatest in the world by virtue of you being born there?

Albert Einstein (clever bloke):

"Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism"

pabloh999

9959 wrote: »

Albert Einstein (clever bloke):

"Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism"

Einstein, being from Germany, might have had a few hang ups to blind mindless patriotism.
Being proud of where you live, does not equal senseless violence.

minidazzler

pabloh999 wrote: »

Einstein, being from Germany, might have had a few hang ups to blind mindless patriotism.
Being proud of where you live, does not equal senseless violence.

There is a difference between being proud and being patriotic. Patriotism is a devotion.

I like Ireland as a place, but I fcuking hate it as a country.

Quazzie

minidazzler wrote: »

I like Ireland as a place, but I fcuking hate it as a country.

Why do you hate it as a country?

minidazzler

Quazzie wrote: »

Why do you hate it as a country?

I'd personally think of the country as the government and such. I doubt that needs much explaining. Great place, lovely people, grand infrastructure, but a system of government that opens itself to everything from incompetence to downright corruption.