Parkrun..

average_runner

If the parks charge the soccer and gaa clubs for using the pitches etc, then its only fair to charge the parkrun. Thats the big question.

I love running the one in Griffeen in Lucan, but lets get real here, the amount of damage getting done by the cars on the green areas out side the park is unreal. The GAA clubs are as bad there also.

The Muppet

average_runner wrote: »

If the parks charge the soccer and gaa clubs for using the pitches etc, then its only fair to charge the parkrun. Thats the big question.

As taxpayers we all ready pay for the use of the parks. With the explosion of poor lifestyle illnesses like diabetes you would think that initiatives like parkrun should be supported rather than obstacles put in its way.

If there are costs involved to the state in facilitating Parkrun in public parks it could well pay for itself by reducing health service/medication costs etc on the state .

Its extremely short sighted to look at park run solely from the cost of ware and tear on parks while ignoring the obvious health benefits to the thousands taking part every week.

I'd make the same arguments for football clubs etc using public facilities even though the GAA and FAI are quite different to parkrun .

average_runner

The Muppet wrote: »

As taxpayers we all ready pay for the use of the parks. With the explosion of poor lifestyle illnesses like diabetes you would think that initiatives like parkrun should be supported rather than obstacles put in its way.

If there are costs involved to the state in facilitating Parkrun in public parks it could well pay for itself by reducing health service/medication costs etc on the state .

Its extremely short sighted to look at park run solely from the cost of ware and tear on parks while ignoring the obvious health benefits to the thousands taking part every week.

I'd make the same arguments for football clubs etc using public facilities even though the GAA and FAI are quite different to parkrun .

GAA and FAI are no different to Parkrun, all providing an service to keep people fit etc.

RayCun

I don't think running on a path will even erode the path. The path will be damaged by the weather over 3 years far more than by foot traffic

edisonolmy

Someone should FOI the council asking for a detailed breakdown of maintenance costs in the park - month by month.

davedanon

average_runner wrote: »

GAA and FAI are no different to Parkrun, all providing an service to keep people fit etc.

Can you join a Gaelic or Soccer club, or come to that, an athletics club, for free?


No, you can not. Therefore not the same. This is what makes parkrun unique among organisations that promote physical activity.

The Muppet

average_runner wrote: »

GAA and FAI are no different to Parkrun, all providing an service to keep people fit etc.

I'd argue there is a significant difference, You wont get 80000 people paying at the gate of a sunday to watch a parkrun,

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think running on a path will even erode the path. The path will be damaged by the weather over 3 years far more than by foot traffic

Its not all on the path, speaking on the one i run:

- Griffeen starts on the path but not enough room for all, so most start on the grass
- Alot of the corners are cut by the runners, so grass gone from them
- It cuts across the grass at the bridge, so that grass is gone
- Finish area is on grass and baggage area, so thats all getting damaged.

average_runner

davedanon wrote: »

Can you join a Gaelic or Soccer club, or come to that, an athletics club, for free?


No, you can not. Therefore not the same. This is what makes parkrun unique among organisations that promote physical activity.

Our gaa club has no membership fee, all supported through sponsors!

Our soccer club charges the kids a euro a week, just to cover the jerseys.

davedanon

The council at Little Stoke seem to think that parkrun having some paid administrators means they are no different to any other sporting organisation, which is basically average runner's argument. But it's not the case. I'm sure parkrun have paid staff only because it became impossible for the founders to run it all on their own, and in that case it would be totally unfair to expect someone to work for free. People have to make a living. The point about all the unpaid volunteerism that actually makes each individual event happen is that they aredrawn from the ranks of parkrunners themselves . If there was one cohort of parkrunners, and then another, quite separate, of volunteers who were expected to do it despite having no other involvement it would be totally unfair and completely unjustifiable.

davedanon

average_runner wrote: »

Our gaa club has no membership fee, all supported through sponsors!

Our soccer club charges the kids a euro a week, just to cover the jerseys.

you are the envy of every other amateur sports club in the country. Very few have that luxury I'd say.

Also sponsorship doesn't come without strings. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Some compromise is inevitable when commercial organisations get involved. Do you get funds from the GAA also?

davedanon

average_runner wrote: »

Its not all on the path, speaking on the one i run:

- Griffeen starts on the path but not enough room for all, so most start on the grass
- Alot of the corners are cut by the runners, so grass gone from them
- It cuts across the grass at the bridge, so that grass is gone
- Finish area is on grass and baggage area, so thats all getting damaged.

All details, and easily fixed. A bit of tape on corners, etc.

average_runner

davedanon wrote: »

you are the envy of every other amateur sports club in the country. Very few have that luxury I'd say.

Also sponsorship doesn't come without strings. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Some compromise is inevitable when commercial organisations get involved. Do you get funds from the GAA also?

We get a small bit, but AAI sponsors the Parkrun.

All I am saying based on the Parkrun where I am, there is alot of wear and tear, but also would say if the council went down this route, would they charge the local jogger running on the grass?

The biggest problem I see in my area is the people parking anywhere, the same goes for the other sports in our area, wrecking the green areas with their cars or parking right up on footpaths so you can't get by with a buggy.

The gardai should do a visit every so often and ticket the cars.

average_runner

davedanon wrote: »

All details, and easily fixed. A bit of tape on corners, etc.

And yet its not!!

Kennyg71

average_runner wrote: »

Its not all on the path, speaking on the one i run:

- Griffeen starts on the path but not enough room for all, so most start on the grass
- Alot of the corners are cut by the runners, so grass gone from them
- It cuts across the grass at the bridge, so that grass is gone
- Finish area is on grass and baggage area, so thats all getting damaged.

The park is free to be used by the public and is paid for with local taxes. Such
as LPT tax. Gaelic and Soccer teams have a permanent area which is maintained
and have goals to use, pitches are also lined out for them. Not to sure they
pay Huge amount anyway, GAA and Soccer receive millions in tax payers money each year in funding, parkrun is a group coming together in the community and
making use of a great publicly owned facility. Park run share paths etc with all
Other runners joggers and walkers who come to use this public area.

average_runner

Kennyg71 wrote: »

The park is free to be used by the public and is paid for with local taxes. Such
as LPT tax. Gaelic and Soccer teams have a permanent area which is maintained
and have goals to use, pitches are also lined out for them. Not to sure they
pay Huge amount anyway, GAA and Soccer receive millions in tax payers money each year in funding, parkrun is a group coming together in the community and
making use of a great publicly owned facility. Park run share paths etc with all
Other runners joggers and walkers who come to use this public area.

GAA gives alot more back than what they get off the government.

I have no problem with Parkrun using it and not getting charged, all i was saying there wear and tear which people seem to think there wasn't

davedanon

average_runner wrote: »

And yet its not!!

I think they had this in Marlay, and the council were all over it, to the point that eventually they changed the route. The thing is, the council are seemingly sanguine about thousands of concert goers turning the concert field into the Somme every summer. I just think at the root of it, there's an ideological objection to the notion of an event that is genuinely free for the user, apart from the printer ink and a sheet of A4 for your barcodes.

Does the AAI sponsor parkrun? I was unaware of that. I thought parkrun provided half the set-up costs for each event, and the event organisers raised the rest through fundraising, local authority grants etc.

I agree with you about cars destroying grass verges. It was a problem long before parkrun appeared, however, and the biggest culprits are probably soccer clubs who are more likely to use municipal pitches than GAA clubs, a lot of whom have their own grounds and parking. (check out the likes of Ballyboden on big game days, though. Cars everywhere)

davedanon

parkruns that operate solely on paths are obviously a slightly different case to those that use the grass, and there was a good point made there. parkruns impose no restrictions on other park users or demand any special right of way: in fact it is an article of faith that parkrunners go around any obstacles they encounter - people, dogs, bicycles, etc.

Where grass is being used, wear and tear is obviously more immediate and visible, but dealt with on a case-by-case basis all problems should be resolvable without taking Little Stoke council's attitude.

davedanon

average_runner wrote: »

GAA gives alot more back than what they get off the government.

Possibly, but that's a different argument. and anyway parkrun can make the same claim even though it gets nothing from government.

ArmaniJeanss

average_runner wrote: »

If the parks charge the soccer and gaa clubs for using the pitches etc, then its only fair to charge the parkrun. Thats the big question.

I love running the one in Griffeen in Lucan, but lets get real here, the amount of damage getting done by the cars on the green areas out side the park is unreal. The GAA clubs are as bad there also.

The football club is paying for exclusive guaranteed use of that pitch at particular times though, very different to the parkrun share concept.

(In addition they are paying for the grass to be maintained to a specific height, goalmouths kept safe, dressing rooms & toilets to be provided as per the rules of that league).

wrstan

There is a petition here if anyone is interested

youngrun

How does the parkrun model work if it doesnt charge ? what about costs like equipment, insurance, websites etc and park hire/costs?....

robinph

The Little Stoke course is 99% on tarmac paths during the winter, or after a lot of rain during the summer, with just the last couple of meters of the finish funnel on grass. The summer course is probably 80% on tarmac with the final half lap being around the edge of a couple of football sorry soccer pitches.

There is no damage to the grass from the parkrun happening, other than one corner between a bench and a tree that is sometimes used when in good condition. That corner has been taped off for a good number of months now to keep people on the tarmac. The BBC reporter stationed at the park today went around and didn't see any damage other than beside the rugby pitch:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-bristol-36027560

I cant see any evidence of the grass being churned up other than at the top of the park, where people playing rugby have walked across the grass in their studs.

The councillors have been making various claims over the last few months, and yesterday and today on the various new reports.

Last September the council told parkrun that they must pay £1 per runner per week, parkrun said "huh! What, when did this happen?!?". The council are now saying they have never asked for runners to pay to run around the park.

The council claim that because parkrun has paid employees and sponsors that parkrun the organisation must pay. Sometime during the night he seems to have given up on that line and wasn't using it as much in his justification today.

The council have kept on saying that they will fill in a grant application that parkrun just need to sign. There is no grant available to be claimed either by parkrun or by the parish council to pay for the maintenance of the park. South Gloucestershire Council, who actually own the park but lease it to the parish council have said to parkrun there is no grant that could be made.

South Gloucestershire Council did provide a grant, which I believe was paid to parkrun, for the initial setup costs for the junior parkrun equipment etc. This is what the parish council are then claiming means there is a grant available, SGCC deny this.

SGCC are fully behind parkrun, but because of the lease do not have the final say on the parks use. There is another nature reserve area about half a mile away that SGCC own directly and do not sub lease and they have been looking into if parkrun can move there. The area really needs multiple parkruns though.

The only point I may agree with the parish council on is that there are quite a lot of people for a relatively small park. Unfortunately this weekend is now likely to be even bigger number I expect and could work against parkrun...if this weekend does still happen.

The parish council would make a killing if they opened a cafe and sold me, and the rest of the parkrunners, coffee and cake.

plodder

davedanon wrote: »

The council at Little Stoke seem to think that parkrun having some paid administrators means they are no different to any other sporting organisation, which is basically average runner's argument. But it's not the case. I'm sure parkrun have paid staff only because it became impossible for the founders to run it all on their own, and in that case it would be totally unfair to expect someone to work for free. People have to make a living. The point about all the unpaid volunteerism that actually makes each individual event happen is that they aredrawn from the ranks of parkrunners themselves . If there was one cohort of parkrunners, and then another, quite separate, of volunteers who were expected to do it despite having no other involvement it would be totally unfair and completely unjustifiable.

That and the sheer scale of it seems to make them think there is a huge well of cash waiting to be exploited. But, the truth is that the parkrun model is quite precarious. The small number of people who get paid are paid nothing like the market rate for what they do. There is some sponsorship, but actually it's not a model that lends itself very well to commercial sponsors. They've been relying more recently on earnings from selling branded running gear through wiggle, but that's hard to predict as well. Here, the AAI includes parkruns under their insurance scheme, which is a big help. A similar arrangement exists in the UK with Run Britain I think.

I'm surprised about the claims of damage as well. In our park, the last 100metres is grass and it gets a bit of wear during the Winter, but you move it around from week to week and there is absolutely no problem or complaint ever.

wrstan

I agree that the parkrun model is quite precarious, but for a different reason. I think the reason that it is precarious is because it has so much commercial potential, while being so dependent on the goodwill of unpaid volunteers.

One of the key challenges for parkrun is whether, or how, they can tap into that commercial potential without damaging the relationship with its unpaid volunteers. I think it is a really interesting challenge.

I don't really know the circumstances around Little Stoke, but my guess is that this issue is an early expression of this dilemma. In other words I suspect that part of the issue is that the Councillors, and those objecting, sense that there is some commercial potential in having c. 300 runners out 52 weeks a year, and they are looking for a slice of it. It's similar to the reasons why parkrun has found it so hard to gain traction in the US where I understand that the key stakeholders cannot understand why you would provide this event for free!

I should nail my colours to the mast - I am a regular parkrunner, I think it is an amazing organisation, built on incredible commitment from its volunteers (not dissimilar to many sports). But it is not an understatement to say that it has changed people's lives and it always has a positive influence on its local communities. It has an incredibly strong culture and set of values which I find so impressive given the organic nature of the organisation.

I sincerely hope that it continues to be free, and manages to find the right balance between its ethos around volunteering and its commercial potential, but I don't underestimate that challenge.

#dfyb :-)

Skid X

I saw this linked on Facebook ...

http://www.victoriawestaway.co.uk/index.php/art-gallery/the-running-man

"Herefordshire and Worcestershire based wire sculptor Victoria Westaway was commissioned by Stoke Gifford Parish Council in South Gloucestershire to create a celebratory Running Man Sculpture. Now named 'Momentum' by local school girl Meredith Runmey, this wire sculpture is sited in Little Stoke Park near Bristol and takes the form of a Running Man, commissioned by the council to celebrate the 1st Anniversary of the Little Stoke Parkrun."

The Council have no problem spending cash on a sculpture to honour their local parkrun ... but they then claim they can't afford to maintain their park. You couldn't make it up.

davedanon

wrstan wrote: »

I think the reason that it is precarious is because it has so much commercial potential.

One of the key challenges for parkrun is whether, or how, they can tap into that commercial potential

In other words I suspect that part of the issue is that the Councillors, and those objecting, sense that there is some commercial potential in having c. 300 runners out 52 weeks a year, and they are looking for a slice of it.

I sincerely hope that it continues to be free, and manages to find the right balance between its ethos around volunteering and its commercial potential.

#dfyb :-)

It's very simple. The only way to do this is to ignore the "commercial potential". the moment that anyone in parkrun looks at parkrunners and sees 'customers' is the moment parkrun dies. End of f*cking story, as Bill Hicks used to say. Is this so hard to comprehend?

Coffee Fulled Runner

Any updates on Lough Key Park Run?

edisonolmy

May 14 for Lough Key - the web page will go live in the next couple of weeks

https://www.facebook.com/Lough-Key-parkrun-985864868149692/?fref=ts

robinph

Have a listen to this weeks Marathon Talk for a bit of background and behind the scenes info regarding Little Stoke, it's from about 11:30 in:

http://www.marathontalk.com/podcast/episode_327_team_gb_rio_marathon_womens_contenders.php

robinph

No such thing as bad publicity right? New people signing up for parkrun this week is up a third on normal already:

https://twitter.com/normal_danny/status/720380266783506432

edisonolmy

Almost 50 registrations at Little Stoke this week. I wonder are they new or people just switching their home run

Amigaman

@ Average Runner - I'll have a chat with the Core team in Griffeen parkrun to do an assessment of our impact on the park, but from my own experience , and I've run griffeen parkun 119 times and the parkrun course itself outside of Saturday mornings probably another 200 times on top of that , is that the only damage I would attribute to parkrunners is at the second tree at the tight right hand turn down to the first bridge ...there is a 3-5 meter section that is a little worn and scuffed and in the wet is a little mucky , I honestly cant think of another ...the run groove in the last 150 meters to the the finish funnel was not caused by parkrunners I can definitely say its from others that use that section as part of their on grass circuit training, and being honest I probably contributed to some of that just training ( and given the state of my current running form I probably need to get out and add to the wear on the park :-) ) . Seriously though its a valid point you raise and we need to be respectful to the park and will have a look , never hurts...we do take this very seriously and I have lost track of the amount of times I've picked up broken glass , cans , swept bridges moved branches and cleaned up after a parkrun , we honestly do take the "leave no trace" message to heart ...I'll be there on Sat if you are around would love to meet up :-) - Ed

TheBigGreen

I wonder will Mallow have a Parkrun at some stage or a Parkrun around the Norht Cork Area?

edisonolmy

If people in Mallow want to start a parkrun, there is no reason why it can't happen - if they have a suitable location.

TheBigGreen

edisonolmy wrote: »

If people in Mallow want to start a parkrun, there is no reason why it can't happen - if they have a suitable location.

I'm not from Mallow but pass through it heading home from work and would stop off if they had a Parkrun. Mallow has a decent population but I'm not too sure about a suitable location, maybe the town park or GAA complex?

edisonolmy

The town park looks tiny in Mallow. You'd need to try to perhaps include an out-and-back along the river if you wanted to avoid multiple laps. I think 2-3 laps is the way to go, if you have to do laps - anything more and it gets messy.

edisonolmy

Just from messing around on maymyrun, you could start in Mallow town park, then head along the river path towards what looks like another green further east - you could do two laps of that, then head back

robinph

I didn't make it past the photo editor, but I think that is best for everyone:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/15/little-stoke-parkrun-on-what-it-means-to-them

RayCun

robinph wrote: »

I didn't make it past the photo editor, but I think that is best for everyone:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/15/little-stoke-parkrun-on-what-it-means-to-them

should have supplied your own photo...

average_runner

Amigaman wrote: »

@ Average Runner - I'll have a chat with the Core team in Griffeen parkrun to do an assessment of our impact on the park, but from my own experience , and I've run griffeen parkun 119 times and the parkrun course itself outside of Saturday mornings probably another 200 times on top of that , is that the only damage I would attribute to parkrunners is at the second tree at the tight right hand turn down to the first bridge ...there is a 3-5 meter section that is a little worn and scuffed and in the wet is a little mucky , I honestly cant think of another ...the run groove in the last 150 meters to the the finish funnel was not caused by parkrunners I can definitely say its from others that use that section as part of their on grass circuit training, and being honest I probably contributed to some of that just training ( and given the state of my current running form I probably need to get out and add to the wear on the park :-) ) . Seriously though its a valid point you raise and we need to be respectful to the park and will have a look , never hurts...we do take this very seriously and I have lost track of the amount of times I've picked up broken glass , cans , swept bridges moved branches and cleaned up after a parkrun , we honestly do take the "leave no trace" message to heart ...I'll be there on Sat if you are around would love to meet up :-) - Ed

As i said before it wasn't a criticism of the parkrun, just pointing out there is wear and tear. I have contributed to that myself running in the park.

Its the parking outside the park that is the real problem, this happens not just for the parkrun but also the GAA &soccer across the road there. There will be an accident there at some stage and more than likely on a summer morning when there is matches on a sat morning.

As for the glass, we have our work cut out there by a small number of people the night before

davedanon

No wear and tear in Tymon. All on tarmac.

whodafunk

With the change in course in St Annes parkrun is the start line the same?

Thank you

rainbow kirby

davedanon wrote: »

No wear and tear in Tymon. All on tarmac.

Same with the 3 nearest to me - all on paved ground or tarmac within the park. Highbury Fields and Hampstead Heath go onto grass for the finishing chute but that's about it.

The Black Oil

Going to volunteer tomorrow as I'm still injured. Looking forward to it.

opus

Was out at the currently defunct Tramore Valley park this morning, was sad to see it deserted at ~9:40 on such a nice day

chinguetti

Nice away trip to Navan parkrun today for me, all on tarmac apart from the finishing line/chute. Good course with a nice drag/hill so a good tester for everyone.

hot buttered scones

opus wrote: »

Was out at the currently defunct Tramore Valley park this morning, was sad to see it deserted at ~9:40 on such a nice day

When need a bit of #loveTVP!! Is the Half Moon Street gate open? I might pop out for a freedom run next Saturday morning around 9:30ish. I just might be passing that way on my long run. Coincidentally, like.

kit3

opus wrote: »

Was out at the currently defunct Tramore Valley park this morning, was sad to see it deserted at ~9:40 on such a nice day

Is the park actually open ? Will be down that way next week

annapr

whodafunk wrote: »

With the change in course in St Annes parkrun is the start line the same?

Thank you

Yes it is. And the finish is close to where it used to be.