Leasing farmland in 2013

southkilkenny

Hi all,

Sorry to butt in but I have an amateur and perhaps silly question. What is meant by renting the land with maps and how does it differ from renting without maps?

farmer1990

I have 83 acres of land and have only been renting 80 acres of that land, while keeping a horse and a few bullocks on the other 3 acres to comply with those rules....So i have been told by teagasc I can still lease the land without the maps ??

nashmach

Tipp Man wrote: »

And not before time

+1 to that

bob charles

^^^^^^^

Pat

talk about eating ones cake, any chance of a slice Pat?

PatQfarmer

bob charles wrote: »

^^^^^^^

Pat

talk about eating ones cake, any chance of a slice Pat?

Lol! I've been warning lads about maps for years! Have refused to be party to deals where it is not done properly. It'll all end in tears.

Remember bob, I'm a farmer too. I would like to see all SFP go to producers.

Actually I'd prefer no SFP and a fair price for produce, but that's a whole other story...:rolleyes:

JohnBoy

farmer1990 wrote: »

I have 83 acres of land and have only been renting 80 acres of that land, while keeping a horse and a few bullocks on the other 3 acres to comply with those rules....So i have been told by teagasc I can still lease the land without the maps ??

I'd imagine you're on sketchy ground for the 80 acres, but your post doesnt exactly spell out all the facts very clearly.

farmer1990

JohnBoy wrote: »

I'd imagine you're on sketchy ground for the 80 acres, but your post doesnt exactly spell out all the facts very clearly.

Sorry John I'm lost with that last comment, what do you mean??

Dairynewbie

Did u consider share farming with a tillage guy.
If your going to rent it. Make sure get a proper lease done up with the individual not a company. Avoid the handshake in the field "type" deal. Avoid auctioneers they have clients they can fix you up with but you will get screwed if dealing with the wrong clan. There are a few in the wider mallow area. You will get upfront payment of half and then excuses when crops/stock are gone off the land when second half is due. Experience learned

Sometimes a reliable lad with lower price is better than half a big price per acre.

bob charles

Dairynewbie wrote: »

Did u consider share farming with a tillage guy.
If your going to rent it. Make sure get a proper lease done up with the individual not a company. Avoid the handshake in the field "type" deal. Avoid auctioneers they have clients they can fix you up with but you will get screwed if dealing with the wrong clan. There are a few in the wider mallow area. You will get upfront payment of half and then excuses when crops/stock are gone off the land when second half is due. Experience learned

Sometimes a reliable lad with lower price is better than half a big price per acre.

+1 to that, also if going letting out land - look for references of other lands rented, take a drive and have a look at the farmers own place. if his place looks like sh*te, I can guarantee yours will look the same in a short while, whatever money you get wouldnt bring it back to where it was.

Dairynewbie

bob charles wrote: »

+1 to that, also if going letting out land - look for references of other lands rented, take a drive and have a look at the farmers own place. if his place looks like sh*te, I can guarantee yours will look the same in a short while, whatever money you get wouldnt bring it back to where it was.

Also consider you existing neighbours and the impact of a bad farmer/practices on you land. (Use of poultry manure) They will be gone in a few years you will be there for ever dealing with the aftermath.

Dont be daft

Dairynewbie wrote: »

Also consider you existing neighbours and the impact of a bad farmer/practices on you land. (Use of poultry manure) They will be gone in a few years you will be there for ever dealing with the aftermath.

Very good point. I know of a farm that 15 years ago was the best farm in the local area.
The tenant fell out with the owner and a new tenant came in. 15 years on the farm is now a complete joke. The place floods because the drains aren't maintained, there's rushes in some fields that never had a rush in them before. The stocking rate is about 5 acres per bullock. You'd actually swear the place was abandoned.
I'd say the current tenant has devalued the land by about €2,500 an acre.

JohnBoy

farmer1990 wrote: »

I have 83 acres of land and have only been renting 80 acres of that land, while keeping a horse and a few bullocks on the other 3 acres to comply with those rules....So i have been told by teagasc I can still lease the land without the maps ??

farmer1990 wrote: »

Sorry John I'm lost with that last comment, what do you mean??

I could be misinterperting your post, but here's how I understand it.

you have 83 acres, around 33ha

you rent out 32ha, keeping 1ha for yourself

if you have 33 entitlements and are claiming all 33 of them, but are only farming 1 ha then you're breaking the rules for the other 32entitlements.


unless you've done some stacking (a concept I still dont understand) or you only have one entitlement then you should not be claiming the rest of the 32 entitlements, your tenant should.

whether your tenant simply claims and pays back to you or not is between you and your tenant. I can see nothing to suggest that's not legal.


(I AM NOT A LAYWER, AGRICULTURAL ADVISOR, SCIENTEST OR ANYTHING MORE THAN SOMEONE WITH A GREEN CERT WHO'S TRIED TO INFORM THEMSELVES TO ENSURE I'M NOT BEING SCREWED ANY MORE THAN I NEED TO BE. I COULD VERY WELL BE WRONG. )

kingstown

Good point JohnBoy, if the tenant is claiming these units shouldn't the land owner (or person who's name is on the SFP) transfer his entitlement to into the tenant name in order that they claim these legally.

Now as you say they could have an agreement between them for this money to be paid over or back to the land owner on top of the rent.

Thing is, if he is doing this already he may loose his entitlement in the new round (least that what people are afraid of - hence the rise keeping the land themselves)



Question, is 1 entitlement = 1 ha ?

Anyone know more about stacking?

bob charles

kingstown wrote: »

Good point JohnBoy, if the tenant is claiming these units shouldn't the land owner (or person who's name is on the SFP) transfer his entitlement to into the tenant name in order that they claim these legally.

Now as you say they could have an agreement between them for this money to be paid over or back to the land owner on top of the rent.

Thing is, if he is doing this already he may loose his entitlement in the new round (least that what people are afraid of - hence the rise keeping the land themselves)



Question, is 1 entitlement = 1 ha ? YES

Anyone know more about stacking? allowed to stack if you lost land that you had during the reference period ie land lost to complusory purchase order, leased in land that you have lost. If you owned your total area then if you sold it you would not be allowed to stack. Stacked entitlement cannot be sold for 5 yrs. So really it only applies to people renting in land and CPO areas and a few more place I can think off, of hand

..

kingstown

Thanks Bob

If a guy had say 84 acres (or 34ha) and had only 20 entitlements could he farm the 20ha (50 acres) himself and claim his 20 entitlements but also rent the remaining 34 acres?

Would there be any issues with the tenants heard number on the owners land even though no claims were being made on that portion of the farm? Assuming the cattle were seperate & fields well fenced with two yards and cattle crushes etc

REBEL COUNTY1

Can someone explain to me what the difference is of leasing land and leasing land "with maps". Surely anyone can get the maps which outline the land rented??

farmer1990

Okay say i was to lease the land to a person with the maps, how do i ensure that i don't lose my entitlements to this person in the future?? My uncle works in the department of Agriculture and his strongly against me leasing the maps to people as i can lose my entitlements....it's all very frustrating and confusing :P Even harder asking Local Farmers as they're telling me all sorts just to ensure I lease the land to them.

bob charles

kingstown wrote: »

Thanks Bob

If a guy had say 84 acres (or 34ha) and had only 20 entitlements could he farm the 20ha (50 acres) himself and claim his 20 entitlements but also rent the remaining 34 acres?YES no problems there, only issue is bio security, the dept of Ag would come down on you like a ton of bricks if different herds mix, which shouldnt be a problem

Would there be any issues with the tenants heard number on the owners land even though no claims were being made on that portion of the farm? Assuming the cattle were seperate & fields well fenced with two yards and cattle crushes etc sounds perfect, where a problem may arise is if say just a strand of electric wire was seperating the 2 different herds

hope above helps

bob charles

farmer1990 wrote: »

Okay say i was to lease the land to a person with the maps, how do i ensure that i don't lose my entitlements to this person in the future?? My uncle works in the department of Agriculture and his strongly against me leasing the maps to people as i can lose my entitlements....it's all very frustrating and confusing :P Even harder asking Local Farmers as they're telling me all sorts just to ensure I lease the land to them.

You cant ensure you dont lose the entitlements as it would be the farmer that is drawing the payments down whose name there in. look up the term "active farmer" on the SFP forms and this will show you why. You wouldnt be an active farmer if you leased lands and entitlements and rightly so. Best not give your uncles name as he would be in serious **** if it was shown that he was advocating fraud which he is. you are either a farmer or not, if you want to claim SFP now or the potential SFP in the future if there is even such a thing which wouldnt surprise if there wasnt. Look it best to get good independent advice which is hard to get (surprisingly on herd would be very independent) as if you ask farmers,auctioneers they all have their agenda. Be careful there are lots of sharks about.

If I was in your position I would lease the land for 7 years to a decent farmer that pays up and returns me a valuable asset in tip top order to me in 7 yrs time when you have college done, seen the world and seen plenty of the opposite sex.

kingstown

Thanks Bob, i appreciate your help.

JohnBoy

farmer1990 wrote: »

Okay say i was to lease the land to a person with the maps, how do i ensure that i don't lose my entitlements to this person in the future?? My uncle works in the department of Agriculture and his strongly against me leasing the maps to people as i can lose my entitlements....it's all very frustrating and confusing :P Even harder asking Local Farmers as they're telling me all sorts just to ensure I lease the land to them.

Your uncle sounds like anyone I know in the department too. they know the rules, but unless they're actually in your yard, carrying out an EU audited inspection they generally seem to have similar views to the rest of us.


there has been some talk of potential contracts to allow for a tenant to activate the entitlements on your land, use them during the lease but transfer them back to you at the end of the lease. I believe there was the potential for similar arrangements last time round?

For such an arrangement to potentially happen you'd want to be on an annual lease though as you wont know until at least the end of the summer what the plans are for the next CAP.

We're delighted with the extra year rollover as some of our land is leased out until the end of 2014 so this means it'll be back to us for the start of the next system when we're gonna be taking it back in hand anyway.


The issue is that right now absolutely no-one knows what the final negotiated agreement will be on the cap reform and therefore they're all trying maximise their chances of the best deal in the future.

farmer1990

Thanks for the advice lads much appreciated....Now that I've found out i have too rent the maps how much should i be asking for P.A, i should be getting rent and my entitlements back aye??

bob charles

local tenant paying a decent price for this land aswell.

there is no good reason firstly why there is a rush in the field in the foreground, poaching has led to that

secondly the tenant is practicing a new method of removing bales from the fields by leaving the job until he needs them, must say this approach is appealing, see the bales in the hill field in the background. worryingly there are 3 or 4 fields further along with bales where the baler dropped them.

caseman

bob charles wrote: »

local tenant paying a decent price for this land aswell.

there is no good reason firstly why there is a rush in the field in the foreground, poaching has led to that

secondly the tenant is practicing a new method of removing bales from the fields by leaving the job until he needs them, must say this approach is appealing, see the bales in the hill field in the background. worryingly there are 3 or 4 fields further along with bales where the baler dropped them.

Tasty bit of work taking place their.

farmer1990

He guys does any1 have a rough idea how much round sialge/hay bales might make this year I know there are alot of circumstance like the weather and supply/demand but I'm just wondering roughly how much?

1chippy

farmer1990 wrote: »

He guys does any1 have a rough idea how much round sialge/hay bales might make this year I know there are alot of circumstance like the weather and supply/demand but I'm just wondering roughly how much?

Dont even dream of it. its a complete waste of time trying to make money on bales. prices ranging round here between 18-28 30at a push, although heard of two farmers getting stuck into each other for bales at an auction and paying 48 a bale. you can make your own call from that.

mf240

Thats this year chippy only last march you could have your pick of bales round here for 12 euro. 20 collected is the price when silage is not really scarce or really over plentiful.

you will be taking a nice shot of p and k off too and if not replaced you will end up with moss and very little grass.

farmgirl

Hi. I have been leasing land for the past number of years with only a verbal agreement in place. I receive a single payment for this every April. The problem is, with only a verbal agreement in place for so long I can't remember whether that payment refers to the year passed or is it for the coming year? I know this may seem rediculous but this is the position I find myself in. Any suggestions as to how I might find out this info without actually asking the tenant? I would try the accountant but I'm having difficulty contacting him at the moment. Any ideas as I need to get this sorted and draw up a proper lease agreement.

Massey10

farmgirl wrote: »

Hi. I have been leasing land for the past number of years with only a verbal agreement in place. I receive a single payment for this every April. The problem is, with only a verbal agreement in place for so long I can't remember whether that payment refers to the year passed or is it for the coming year? I know this may seem rediculous but this is the position I find myself in. Any suggestions as to how I might find out this info without actually asking the tenant? I would try the accountant but I'm having difficulty contacting him at the moment. Any ideas as I need to get this sorted and draw up a proper lease agreement.

If you cant remember if the tenant payed on taking the ground or after having it for a year what can your accountan tell you.If he was claiming sfp on your land maybe the dept. could tell you when he first included it in his name. How much land are you talking about

neil7024

What is the Law when it comes to Adverse Possession or Squatters Rights . I have a lease in place but will it protect me from a tenant claiming adverse possession. The tenant has been in place for a total on 11 years. I read somewhere that the tenant could claim rights if left in place for 12 years.