PDC vs BDO - Discuss

Jayob10

T-K-O wrote: »

Taylor is a very UN-likeable but very talented player. If we are to follow your logic at least half of his world titles do not count because the competition was so so poor.

Barney went over took the titles and basically retired :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Thats all very true. But with stiffer competition in the PDC he has continued to win.

So anyone else calling themselves world champ (in the BDO) during his reign at the top in the PDC is stretching the truth.

Theres arguments to be made for both sides. But the stronger competition in the PDC gives the holder of that world title more of a claim to the title of world champ.

Sure the BDO is the historical tournament, and the PDC is the glossy, manufactured tournament. You have to look at the players.

Where is there more strength in depth?

unknown13

You cannot compare Boxing with Darts. Just because the Hearn's are serious promoters of both sports means nothing. Also, comparing boxing sanctioning bodies to darts is just stupid.

I saw a bit of the BDO darts and it was the 10th seed against a qualifier and they were going out in 18 or more darts. For a 10th seed that is pretty shocking. If you are good enough to be ranked that high, you should be going in less. You cannot get away with that in the PDC.

Jayob10

T-K-O wrote: »

But the IBO will never be the WBC no matter what

correct in terms of history it won't.

But if Floyd, Manny, Maravilla and Co all decided in the morn that they would only fight for IBO titles, then IBO becomes the most competitive.

The fact Shane Mosley, Zab Judah and Josh Clottey are still clinging onto the WBC belts history means damn all.

Ok enough boxing talk TKO, we'll be banned

Felexicon

But the title they win is called BDO WORLD CHAMPION and PDC WORLD CHAMPION.

As in they are the world champions or the respective organisations.

T-K-O

Jayob10 wrote: »

Thats all very true. But with stiffer competition in the PDC he has continued to win.

So anyone else calling themselves world champ (in the BDO) during his reign at the top in the PDC is stretching the truth.

Theres arguments to be made for both sides. But the stronger competition in the PDC gives the holder of that world title more of a claim to the title of world champ.

Sure the BDO is the historical tournament, and the PDC is the glossy, manufactured tournament. You have to look at the players.

Where is there more strength in depth?

I have already said, in the last few years PDC successfully poached most of the talent. But it's wasn't that long ago when the BDO (less Taylor) still had the better players.

So Taylor is a 6 time world champion and we should scratch the BDO

T-K-O

Jayob10 wrote: »

correct in terms of history it won't.

But if Floyd, Manny, Maravilla and Co all decided in the morn that they would only fight for IBO titles, then IBO becomes the most competitive.

The fact Shane Mosley, Zab Judah and Josh Clottey are still clinging onto the WBC belts history means damn all.

Ok enough boxing talk TKO, we'll be banned

Right lets be friends.

BDO is better....:pac::pac:

But seriously there is room for both. What annoys me more is the newer fan who knows nothing about the BDO, is blinded by the lights over at Sky and does not appreciate what the BDO has done for the game

Jayob10

unknown13 wrote: »

You cannot compare Boxing with Darts. Just because the Hearn's are serious promoters of both sports means nothing. Also, comparing boxing sanctioning bodies to darts is just stupid.

I saw a bit of the BDO darts and it was the 10th seed against a qualifier and they were going out in 18 or more darts. For a 10th seed that is pretty shocking. If you are good enough to be ranked that high, you should be going in less. You cannot get away with that in the PDC.

of course you can compare.

The IBO boxing title is a relatively new mad up belt by the sanctioning body. Lots of money behind it.

It has zero relevance historically speaking amongst the greats.

If all the worlds best boxers start competing for the IBO title only, leaving the dregs to compete over the WBC belt (held by Tyson and Co.) does this mean the WBC belt (the historically prestigous one) is still the barometre of the best?

You judge it by the players who are currently competing.

Kingp35

Kingp35 wrote: »

Waites lost in the Quarter Finals of the Worlds in 2010. Hardly the best player around, in fact not even close.

Was he not the no. 1 BDO player when he won the Grand Slam?

Either way, my point is the fallacy of saying to be world champion you have to beat Taylor. The game should not be defined in that way. Heck even the PDC worlds should not be defined in that way.

T-K-O

The boxing analogy is perfect but it has nothing to do with Hearns

T-K-O

T-K-O wrote: »

But seriously there is room for both.

That certainly is true. As they both show at the moment. They coexist. Uneasily perhaps, but it is what it is. Insisting that the PDC is better is like insisting the Spanish League is better than the English League. We know that, but the question is "so what".

Kingp35

Deleted User wrote: »

Was he not the no. 1 BDO player when he won the Grand Slam?

Either way, my point is the fallacy of saying to be world champion you have to beat Taylor. The game should not be defined in that way. Heck even the PDC worlds should not be defined in that way.

He was seeded No. 2 for the tournament anyway, not sure about his world ranking.

As for your second point I completely agree, whoever wins the BDO has every right to be called a World Champion but it should be disclosed that they are/were BDO World Champion because as much as the old school darts fans wants it to be, the BDO is not at the same standard as the PDC.

T-K-O

Deleted User wrote: »

That certainly is true. As they both show at the moment. They coexist. Uneasily perhaps, but it is what it is. Insisting that the PDC is better is like insisting the Spanish League is better than the English League. We know that, but the question is "so what".

My thoughts exactly... I would love to see ESPN invest in the BDO to shorten that gap.

I have to say, much as I like the BDO and dislike the constant attempts to put it down, I also dislike Martin Adams attitude of "the PDC does not exist or is irrelevant". It exists Martin, I can see it, and it's pretty darn good!

T-K-O

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to say, much as I like the BDO and dislike the constant attempts to put it down, I also dislike Martin Adams attitude of "the PDC does not exist or is irrelevant". It exists Martin, I can see it, and it's pretty darn good!

Never a big fan of his

unknown13

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to say, much as I like the BDO and dislike the constant attempts to put it down, I also dislike Martin Adams attitude of "the PDC does not exist or is irrelevant". It exists Martin, I can see it, and it's pretty darn good!

Adams is a fool. Taylor would whitewash him and the most of the PDC top 10 would beat him well.

unknown13

unknown13 wrote: »

Adams is a fool. Taylor would whitewash him and the most of the PDC top 10 would beat him well.

They have played 4 times. Taylor won 3, Adams 1. None has been a whitewash.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Daroxtar

T-K-O wrote: »

I have already said, in the last few years PDC successfully poached most of the talent. But it's wasn't that long ago when the BDO (less Taylor) still had the better players.

So Taylor is a 6 time world champion and we should scratch the BDO

Completly wrong. Sure the PDC (WDC) was set up when virtually all the top BDO players left. Almost all the previous champions went to the WDC.

If Man U, Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Chelsea, Inter, Porto, Juve, AC, Liverpool, Benfica, Athletico and a few more all formed a new champions cup then I'm sorry but that's the competition that will now have more prestige. Same with darts. When the top talent left they took the prestige with them.
Who was left? Steve Beaton, Richie Burnett, Bobby George.....

Boxing is the wrong analogy. A far better comparison would be PDC =UFC and BDO =K1 Pride

AugustusMinimus

T-K-O wrote: »

But it's wasn't that long ago when the BDO (less Taylor) still had the better players.

The BDO never had a better set of players than the PDC throughout the history of the split.

The closest it got was about 1999 to 2004 but the PDC were still better, with far better 3 dart averages being thrown by most players.

AugustusMinimus

The PDC was established due to the almost fascist behaviour of Olly Croft.

The players asked him could they organise there own TV tournament outside of the World Championship as the BDO would not organise them. The players then pulled the WDC badge stunt at the 1993 World Championship.

Croft didn't like this and then firstly banned all WDC players in the UK and due to his presence on the WDF, got them a world wide ban.

repsol

T-K-O wrote: »

Never a big fan of his

"Wolfie" has a position on the BDO afaik as well as being a player so he is probably biased against PDC. He has managed to make a nice living from being "a big fish in a small pond" and has collected 100k for winning on more than one occassion. Not bad when you consider he would be low in the PDC pecking order if he moved over.With endorsements etc I would say he is better in the BDO and probably enjoys the friendlier atmosphere.In the BDO,he is highly respected as a multiple champion.His wife goes to a lot of matches but probably wouldn't want to sit in a PDC crowd and listen to some of the abuse that players are subjected to.Are you sure you don't dislike him just because he looks a bit like RTE's Joe Duffy TKO?:D

Felexicon

Daroxtar wrote: »

Boxing is the wrong analogy. A far better comparison would be PDC =UFC and BDO =K1 Pride

The correct analogy would actually be Premier League and Championship football. When the players in the BDO (Championship) reach the top of that organisation the next step up is to he big money and better overall quality of the PDC (Premier League)

Even tough I'm fully aware that the standard in PDC is higher I still prefare the BDO. As an organisation it just seems more interested in the actual darts rather than the show business side of modern televised sports. And yes I'm fully aware that by ignoring what large sections of the ticket buying public want they are essentially digging their own grave as a profitable sporting body but I'm still somewhat of a darting romantic when it comes to the Lakeside

mdwexford

Lot of deluded people on this thread.

mdwexford

mdwexford wrote: »

Lot of deluded people on this thread.

I agree. Too many very dismissive about the standards in the BDO. Like it or not, it is a World Title. We can argue all day about the merits and demerits, it is the one that goes back to 78 and it will be around for a while to come.

repsol

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree. Too many very dismissive about the standards in the BDO. Like it or not, it is a World Title. We can argue all day about the merits and demerits, it is the one that goes back to 78 and it will be around for a while to come.

I do like watching it but it is not a World title.There are only 4 competitors who have been in previous finals and 2 were eliminated on the first day.All the other former winners and finalists have gone.Even BBC have been using the term "former Lakeside champion" rather than "former World champion" in relation to JB Walton

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree. Too many very dismissive about the standards in the BDO. Like it or not, it is a World Title. We can argue all day about the merits and demerits, it is the one that goes back to 78 and it will be around for a while to come.

It's nothing but a World Title in name. You have to be seriously deluded to consider some of the recent winners as being World Champions considering their 3 dart average vis-à-vis the PDC world champions.

Felexicon

repsol wrote: »

I do like watching it but it is not a World title.There are only 4 competitors who have been in previous finals and 2 were eliminated on the first day.All the other former winners and finalists have gone.Even BBC have been using the term "former Lakeside champion" rather than "former World champion" in relation to JB Walton

Wait. What?
So you are saying that the value of any world championship is directly proportional to the amount of former champions or finalists in said competition.

Also the term Lakeside champion has always been used as the venue is part of the history of the tournament nearly as much as the darts.

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

Wait. What?
So you are saying that the value of any world championship is directly proportional to the amount of former champions or finalists in said competition.

Also the term Lakeside champion has always been used as the venue is part of the history of the tournament nearly as much as the darts.

No. What repsol is saying is quite correct.

In the first say 10 years of the split, the PDC barely got a mention. More and more I see that the PDC is being mentioned (now more than ever since Croft got booted off the board).

Similarly, this Lakeside Champion phrase has only been used quite often in the last 10 years or so.

repsol

repsol wrote: »

I do like watching it but it is not a World title.

But it is. Names on that trophy like Bristow, Lowe, Taylor, Van Barneveld...100 quotes that you twist out of BBC commentary about Walton won't change that. Are you seriously making the point that he BBC agrees with you that the PDC is the only world title? That's laughable.

Felexicon

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It's nothing but a World Title in name. You have to be seriously deluded to consider some of the recent winners as being World Champions considering their 3 dart average vis-à-vis the PDC world champions.

Do you know how little 3 dart averages where talked about before Sky decided it was the measure of a darts player.
Did you never hear the saying "Trebles for show, doubles for dough"

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

But it is. Names on that trophy like Bristow, Lowe, Taylor, Van Barneveld...100 quotes that you twist out of BBC commentary about Walton won't change that. Are you seriously making the point that he BBC agrees with you that the PDC is the only world title? That's laughable.

You're in denial.

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It's nothing but a World Title in name. You have to be seriously deluded to consider some of the recent winners as being World Champions considering their 3 dart average vis-à-vis the PDC world champions.

I didn't realise that 3 dart averages were the be all and end all.

Someone rush and tell Daryl Fitton, did he not hit then record televised 114 average a few years back. Apparently that made him the world champion...in both organisations!!

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

You're in denial.

Possibly. I deny that 3 dart averages decide the world champion. In either organisation.

Felexicon

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't realise that 3 dart averages were the be all and end all.

Someone rush and tell Daryl Fitton, did he not hit then record televised 114 average a few years back. Apparently that made him the world champion...in both organisations!!

Now where's that betting slip till I tell Paddy Power it was actually a winner

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

Do you know how little 3 dart averages where talked about before Sky decided it was the measure of a darts player.
Did you never hear the saying "Trebles for show, doubles for dough"

Doubles percentage forms a huge part of your 3 dart average. Each missed double means you score 0 for that dart. A huge dent in your 3 dart average.

And of course it matters. It is the primary stat which shows how good of a dart player you are. The only way it is skewed is if the player you are playing is better than you, which artificially raises your 3 dart average as you're not throwing at doubles much.

All hail Daryl Fitton, Augustus' Darts Champion of 2004 for the highest average...he'll be thrilled, and surprised!!

repsol

Felexicon wrote: »

Wait. What?
So you are saying that the value of any world championship is directly proportional to the amount of former champions or finalists in said competition.

Also the term Lakeside champion has always been used as the venue is part of the history of the tournament nearly as much as the darts.

No. I am saying that if there is another tournament with at least 20 players who could wipe their arse with the Lakeside "champion" and every previous champion has buggered off to their tournament(except crap ones like Kist that PDC didn't want), it is not a World Championship.If the averages are nowhere near those of the PDC it is not a World Championship.Some of the players on BDO are brilliant,but there are too many no hopers so the standard of early rounds is poor.James Wade for example has never won a World Title but he would walk the BDO,no problem as would Van Gerwin

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

All hail Daryl Fitton, Augustus' Darts Champion of 2004 for the highest average...he'll be thrilled, and surprised!!

Quote me where I said 3 darts average determines who is the world champion.

Felexicon

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Doubles percentage forms a huge part of your 3 dart average. Each missed double means you score 0 for that dart. A huge dent in your 3 dart average.

And of course it matters. It is the primary stat which shows how good of a dart player you are. The only way it is skewed is if the player you are playing is better than you, which artificially raises your 3 dart average as you're not throwing at doubles much.

Only if you are looking at 3 dart averages on a leg by leg basis will you see missed doubles make any real dent in the average. Over the course of a five set game a missed double will not even count for .5 off your average.

repsol

repsol wrote: »

No. I am saying that if there is another tournament with at least 20 players who could wipe their arse with the Lakeside "champion" and every previous champion has buggered off to their tournament(except crap ones like Kist that PDC didn't want), it is not a World Championship.If the averages are nowhere near those of the PDC it is not a World Championship.Some of the players on BDO are brilliant,but there are too many no hopers so the standard of early rounds is poor.James Wade for example has never won a World Title but he would walk the BDO,no problem as would Van Gerwin

What is the fixation with averages? Players who have never won a title in either code, like Fitton and Anderson, have fired in incredible averages. It's all about winning the world title...either one.

Felexicon

repsol wrote: »

No. I am saying that if there is another tournament with at least 20 players who could wipe their arse with the Lakeside "champion" and every previous champion has buggered off to their tournament(except crap ones like Kist that PDC didn't want), it is not a World Championship.If the averages are nowhere near those of the PDC it is not a World Championship.Some of the players on BDO are brilliant,but there are too many no hopers so the standard of early rounds is poor.James Wade for example has never won a World Title but he would walk the BDO,no problem as would Van Gerwin

EEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRHHHHHH Wrong! Van Gerwin was in the BDO and never won the world title.

Also please point out these 20 players in the PDC who would "wipe their arse" with the Lakeside champion.
Have you ever watched the Grand Slam of Darts. Not alot of arse wiping in that competition.

Lastly it's not a case of the PDC not wanting Kist. You do realise that you or I can sign up to be a PDC member in the morning and be given the same chance as anyone else. It's not some bizzare members only old boys club

Treble20

The BDO Lakeside World Championship is been held for the 36th time this year. It was the first and original World Darts Championship and while I'm a BDO hardcore fan I recognise that another organisation the PDC do exist and have a World Champion. To all those blow in fans to darts through Sky Sports I'd like to say please don't be ignorant and show some respect towards the BDO World Champion who deserves his title.

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Quote me where I said 3 darts average determines who is the world champion.

I think it was you who linked the title of world champion to 3 dart averages. Here...

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

You have to be seriously deluded to consider some of the recent winners as being World Champions considering their 3 dart average vis-à-vis the PDC world champions.

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

Only if you are looking at 3 dart averages on a leg by leg basis will you see missed doubles make any real dent in the average. Over the course of a five set game a missed double will not even count for .5 off your average.

Don't see your point. A missed double late on in a game will affect both your 3 dart average and doubles percentage proportionally.

The only way your doubles percentage doesn't affect your 3 dart average is when you don't get a shot at a double due to your opponent no letting you get a shot.

Its actually possible to have a 3 dart average of 180 and lose a game.

Its possible to have a 3 dart average of 173.5 and lose a match.

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it was you who linked the title of world champion to 3 dart averages. Here...

I said no such thing. I said that the 3 dart average of players at the BDO heavily undermines the assumption that the player who wins the tournament can be described as a World Champion.

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

EEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRHHHHHH Wrong! Van
Lastly it's not a case of the PDC not wanting Kist. You do realise that you or I can sign up to be a PDC member in the morning and be given the same chance as anyone else. It's not some bizzare members only old boys club

When did the original agreement between the BDO and PDC finish, where if you reached the semi-final of either World Championship, meant that you weren't allow switch the year after ?

Felexicon

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Don't see your point. A missed double late on in a game will affect both your 3 dart average and doubles percentage proportionally.

The only way your doubles percentage doesn't affect your 3 dart average is when you don't get a shot at a double due to your opponent no letting you get a shot.

Its actually possible to have a 3 dart average of 180 and lose a game.

Its possible to have a 3 dart average of 173.5 and lose a match.

Now you do realise you're agreeing with me now that a higher 3 dart average does not always mean a better darts player. This is directly contradicting the post you asked another poster to quote from you saying that it is a 3 dart average that determines he quality of a dart player.
You're running circles around yourself here mate

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I said no such thing. I said that the 3 dart average of players at the BDO heavily undermines the assumption that the player who wins the tournament can be described as a World Champion.

Ha!

Okay, I'll let you off, I think you are getting bogged down in the area. Whatever you think. I guess the titles of those who won the PDC while Fitton had the record 3 dart average stands "heavily undermined" then...

Felexicon

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha!

Okay, I'll let you off, I think you are getting bogged down in the area. Whatever you think. I guess the titles of those who won the PDC while Fitton had the record 3 dart average stands "heavily undermined" then...

Someone tell Phil we have to put a star beside 5 of those world titles :pac::pac:

Crazy arguement

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

Now you do realise you're agreeing with me now that a higher 3 dart average does not always mean a better darts player. This is directly contradicting the post you asked another poster to quote from you saying that it is a 3 dart average that determines he quality of a dart player.
You're running circles around yourself here mate

Not true. If one player has a high 3 darts average, it drags the other player up.

3 darts average should be viewed in light of how good both players are collectively in a given match instead of looking at either player in isolation.


A player might only get an average of 95 against one player. But if he played a player of higher quality he might score a higher average due to not having to shoot as many doubles.


THis partially might explain a lot of the low 3 dart averages in the earlier rounds of the BDO but shouldn't explain lower 3 dart averages in later rounds.