How much benefit to the economy are retail and new car sales?

Slideshowbob

This week on Radio 1, a presenter was siding with someone representing retailers with such comments as "what do we need to do to keep shoppers buying during the sales?", "will it continue?" and things to that effect.

Yet how much of say a purchase of an American branded €80 jumper made in China bought in a Dublin department store which is owned by a bank or American investor actually goes back into the Irish economy?

As for the motor trade, who got their ways again with the crazy 131 regs - how much of a say €25,000 new foreign built motor remains in Ireland to lead to further economic creation?

Do commentators quib too much of these 2 sectors of the economy? Aren't other sectors eg manfacturing, pharma, food, construction contributions to alot more wealth in Ireland proportionately to the amount of support they get from government etc?

juan.kerr

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Do commentators quib too much of these 2 sectors of the economy? Aren't other sectors eg manfacturing, pharma, food, construction contributions to alot more wealth in Ireland proportionately to the amount of support they get from government etc?

Can you clarify what support the retail sector gets from government (that other sectors dont get)?

syklops

You know what retailers could do to keep people shopping? Have opening hours that don't conflict with the working hours of the employed. I got off work just before six yesterday, wanted to buy a few things. Lidl was open, but the three superstores down the road all closed on the dot of 6. One was a homewares superstore, and the other was another Home and DIY store, which is what I wanted. Same closing time all week.

juan.kerr

syklops wrote: »

You know what retailers could do to keep people shopping? Have opening hours that don't conflict with the working hours of the employed. I got off work just before six yesterday, wanted to buy a few things. Lidl was open, but the three superstores down the road all closed on the dot of 6. One was a homewares superstore, and the other was another Home and DIY store, which is what I wanted. Same closing time all week.

Do they not have late opening on Thursday?

If the demand for opening until later was there then the shops probably would open until later. But the demand would need to be sufficient to cover the extra cost.

Slideshowbob

juan.kerr wrote: »

Can you clarify what support the retail sector gets from government (that other sectors dont get)?

Well take Arnotts as example, taken over by Ulster Bank and Anglo Irish Bank.

Anglo is sub'ed by government/taxpayer - therefore government helping/propping up Arnotts ....

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Do commentators quib too much of these 2 sectors of the economy? Aren't other sectors eg manfacturing, pharma, food, construction contributions to alot more wealth in Ireland proportionately to the amount of support they get from government etc?

The support from Government aspect isn't the key point, and could distract from the discussion.

On your main point, yes, you are right. Commentators do talk too much about retail, relative to its importance to the economy. Much as you say, the retail business (and I'm including the motor trade in that) is mostly concerned with selling us imported goods.

I suggest a few reasons explain this. The reason someone like SIMI can have a higher profile than the pharma sector is simply because those car dealerships are Irish owned. Also, shops are visible - people can see how busy the town is, and empty units are noticed.

I'd just make a couple of points that you might consider, though. Firstly, retail sales are related to tax take. Also, retail sales are an indicator of how households are doing. If there was a retail boom, it could be a sign of recovery.

However, as I'm sure you'll likely respond, that doesn't mean boosting retail sales is an end in itself. It would be quite perverse for Government to encourage more imports, just to raise tax revenue. All I mean is that reportage of retail sales isn't a complete irrelevance - it is just given too much coverage, and it would be pointless for Government to go out of its way to encourage more retail spending.

shedweller

Ah but, empty fridges arent noticed.

Icepick

Slideshowbob wrote: »

This week on Radio 1, a presenter was siding with someone representing retailers with such comments as "what do we need to do to keep shoppers buying during the sales?", "will it continue?" and things to that effect.

Yet how much of say a purchase of an American branded €80 jumper made in China bought in a Dublin department store which is owned by a bank or American investor actually goes back into the Irish economy?

As for the motor trade, who got their ways again with the crazy 131 regs - how much of a say €25,000 new foreign built motor remains in Ireland to lead to further economic creation?

Do commentators quib too much of these 2 sectors of the economy? Aren't other sectors eg manfacturing, pharma, food, construction contributions to alot more wealth in Ireland proportionately to the amount of support they get from government etc?

It's more complicated than that.
1, Money ending up abroad is not lost because we export a lot of stuff.
2, Shiny things make people want to earn more. If we cannot make them, it's good that someone else can.

newmug

Whats the story with these new regs?

_Kaiser_

newmug wrote: »

Whats the story with these new regs?

As in? Lots of info over here

liammur

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The support from Government aspect isn't the key point, and could distract from the discussion.

On your main point, yes, you are right. Commentators do talk too much about retail, relative to its importance to the economy. Much as you say, the retail business (and I'm including the motor trade in that) is mostly concerned with selling us imported goods.

I suggest a few reasons explain this. The reason someone like SIMI can have a higher profile than the pharma sector is simply because those car dealerships are Irish owned. Also, shops are visible - people can see how busy the town is, and empty units are noticed.

I'd just make a couple of points that you might consider, though. Firstly, retail sales are related to tax take. Also, retail sales are an indicator of how households are doing. If there was a retail boom, it could be a sign of recovery.

However, as I'm sure you'll likely respond, that doesn't mean boosting retail sales is an end in itself. It would be quite perverse for Government to encourage more imports, just to raise tax revenue. All I mean is that reportage of retail sales isn't a complete irrelevance - it is just given too much coverage, and it would be pointless for Government to go out of its way to encourage more retail spending.

Retail is the biggest employer in the country. When people don't spend money the shops close and the dole queues grow. It's of vital importance and in my opinion it's not supported enough e.g. shops are hit with outrageous rates, water charges etc to keep councils running.

The mistake many economies have made, including ours is, they have neglected manufacturing. Remember FF telling us we don't need manufacturing jobs because we are 'the smart economy'!
But this isn't the fault of retail.

clairefontaine

Irish retailers need to wake up to online shopping. I purchase nearly everything, bar groceries, online. I buy my books second hand from British based second hand online retailers, and I but my goods from amazon and foreign online retailers such as American and French ones and even sometimes Austrian of all places.

There is little conciousness of online competition from Irish retailers, including book shops and goods and clothing stores, so a lot of what I spend leaves the country. I am sure I am not alone there. Part of the problem is not just lack of online availability, but also choice in the shops that are here. This may be less obvious in Dublin, but leave Dublin and you are better off buying online, save on petrol tooing and froing and you have more options.

As for cars, they get some tax from purchases but most of the money leaves the country. To add to this, they offered reduced motor tax to people who bought new, more eco whatever cars, also encouraging money to leave the country.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

liammur wrote: »

Retail is the biggest employer in the country. When people don't spend money the shops close and the dole queues grow. <...>But this isn't the fault of retail.

I don't think anyone is blaming retail for anything. We're simply observing that businesses engaged in reselling imported goods on the domestic market are not an engine for economic growth. Job losses in retail are probably just part of a necessary restructuring; you couldn't have an economy where half of us worked for Tesco, and the other half worked for M&S.

But I think you've put your finger on the cause. The West has been engaged in massive delusion in thinking that economies that don't make much can still be prosperous.

liammur

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I don't think anyone is blaming retail for anything. We're simply observing that businesses engaged in reselling imported goods on the domestic market are not an engine for economic growth. Job losses in retail are probably just part of a necessary restructuring; you couldn't have an economy where half of us worked for Tesco, and the other half worked for M&S.

But I think you've put your finger on the cause. The West has been engaged in massive delusion in thinking that economies that don't make much can still be prosperous.

I agree with you. Retail is good for the economy, but is totally dependant on people having money to spend. It shouldn't be viewed as the main driver of an economy.

thebman

Retail is good except what is the point in going to shops in Ireland when they aren't competitive with online and have no webshops.

Adverts.ie is probably the biggest presence for most Irish businesses.

If adverts offered customized stores for Irish businesses they'd probably get some take up as I imagine most Irish stores just can't be bothered setting them up, of course their stock would be left out of date on their web stores even if it was managed for them.

Irish businesses aren't run well enough to keep up with their own stock and are incapable of keeping a website up to date.

MadsL

juan.kerr wrote: »

Can you clarify what support the retail sector gets from government (that other sectors dont get)?

The retail car sector get massive Govt perks in the form of scrappage schemes and tax based incentives to buy newer cars.

newmug

MadsL wrote: »

The retail car sector get massive Govt perks in the form of scrappage schemes and tax based incentives to buy newer cars.

I think these scrappage schemes are economic suicide! Should they not be encouraging spending money on parts, from second-hand Irish registered cars, instead of spending money on brand new foreign made cars? There was nothing wrong with the vast majority of cars scrapped in the last decade, 10 years old is NOT old for a car. And we even have the NCT (another money spinner!) to ensure cars are up to a certain safety standard. The whole ethos of spending lifetime-savings amounts of money on something which will plummet in value due to the year, and now time-of-year it was registered is just so wrong.

Going Forward

thebman wrote: »

Retail is good except what is the point in going to shops in Ireland when they aren't competitive with online and have no webshops.

Adverts.ie is probably the biggest presence for most Irish businesses.

If adverts offered customized stores for Irish businesses they'd probably get some take up as I imagine most Irish stores just can't be bothered setting them up, of course their stock would be left out of date on their web stores even if it was managed for them.

Irish businesses aren't run well enough to keep up with their own stock and are incapable of keeping a website up to date.

In spite of all the wringing of hands by retailers here, many are doing ok. If not they would put a bit more emphasis on customer service and competitiveness. There is no competition, bar Argos , Lidle and Aldi- more power to them too.

sarumite

Going Forward wrote: »

In spite of all the wringing of hands by retailers here, many are doing ok. If not they would put a bit more emphasis on customer service and competitiveness. There is no competition, bar Argos , Lidle and Aldi- more power to them too.

Aldi, Lidle and Argos aren't renowned for their customer service. I mean Aldi and Lidle just dump the stuff on the floor and leave it to the customers to root around and find what they are looking for and Argos have no problem leaving you waiting for your item despite the fact that you just queued on the only till that was open to pay for the thing. They may be competive, however they aren't exactly the shining lights for customer service.

Going Forward

sarumite wrote: »

Aldi, Lidle and Argos aren't renowned for their customer service. I mean Aldi and Lidle just dump the stuff on the floor and leave it to the customers to root around and find what they are looking for and Argos have no problem leaving you waiting for your item despite the fact that you just queued on the only till that was open to pay for the thing. They may be competive, however they aren't exactly the shining lights for customer service.

You are correct, they are not renowned for their customer service, but their prices generally wipe the floor of other retailers selling the same or similar goods.

For a Christmas present I priced a camcorder in a national electrical retailer and Argos there was a 100euro price difference.

I dont "expect" customer service in these places anymore, I've reduced those expectations in lieu of the price differential!

But walk into many electrical retailers, or technology retailers and you'll often be met with untrained staff with no incentive to sell.
Staff trained properly to sell are something of a rarity, as are clean and tidy shops which display clear pricing and with "Genuine" sales, ie goods actually properly discounted.

Similarly the lack of a basic online prescence of many small local independent traders is amazing.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

sarumite wrote: »

Aldi, Lidle and Argos aren't renowned for their customer service. I mean Aldi and Lidle just dump the stuff on the floor and leave it to the customers to root around and find what they are looking for and Argos have no problem leaving you waiting for your item despite the fact that you just queued on the only till that was open to pay for the thing. They may be competive, however they aren't exactly the shining lights for customer service.

I don't agree. Their returns policies are pretty good - no quibble, none of the Irish Gombeen reluctance to give you a refund. Tesco, too.

They have limitations - Tesco ain't great at fresh food like veg, and Lidl seem to take pride in having just one too few tills open. But they have advantages, too. I find the Argos ring and reserve thing works well; they've automated tellers, so you don't need to queue for the cash desk. Where you could criticise Argos is they are rarely the cheapest - but they are offering a decent service that sometimes suits your needs.

thebman

sarumite wrote: »

Aldi, Lidle and Argos aren't renowned for their customer service. I mean Aldi and Lidle just dump the stuff on the floor and leave it to the customers to root around and find what they are looking for and Argos have no problem leaving you waiting for your item despite the fact that you just queued on the only till that was open to pay for the thing. They may be competive, however they aren't exactly the shining lights for customer service.

I found that all the companies mentioned above have great customer service.

If you ask in store, someone will help you as soon as they can. If it goes wrong, they will accept the return with no questions asked in the vast majority of legitimate cases.

I've had horrible experiences trying to return faulty goods in the boom to stores that no longer exist now.

sparksfly

liammur wrote: »

I agree with you. Retail is good for the economy, but is totally dependant on people having money to spend. It shouldn't be viewed as the main driver of an economy.

This is true to a point. Retail is not a driver as it generates no wealth but merely shifts money around from earner to retailer / wholesaler / employee.
Retail that sells only imported goods (like car sales) are a net loss to the economy as the majority of the price paid by the buyer leaves the country.

Export manufacturing industries, export services and tourism are the only wealth creators for us and all domestic spending depends on these.

antoobrien

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I don't agree. Their returns policies are pretty good - no quibble, none of the Irish Gombeen reluctance to give you a refund. Tesco, too.

The no quibble return policy as long as you have a receipt is not necessarily a good thing. I know a fair few people that returned PCs to tesco after 11 months for a no quibble refund - essentially giving them a free PC for nearly a year. It eventually put the (Irish) PC maker out of business as Tesco were sending the machines back under warranty to the company.

there should be something wrong with an item before a refund is given. Swaps for credit notes should be no quibble.

thebman

antoobrien wrote: »

The no quibble return policy as long as you have a receipt is not necessarily a good thing. I know a fair few people that returned PCs to tesco after 11 months for a no quibble refund - essentially giving them a free PC for nearly a year. It eventually put the (Irish) PC maker out of business as Tesco were sending the machines back under warranty to the company.

there should be something wrong with an item before a refund is given. Swaps for credit notes should be no quibble.

Few companies offer an 12 month no quibble refund policy.

Bit odd if Tesco were doing that.

Most are 16 days or so.

antoobrien

thebman wrote: »

Few companies offer an 12 month no quibble refund policy.

Bit odd if Tesco were doing that.

Most are 16 days or so.

I witnessed it myself on a couple of occasions. They may have changed policy since but they were simply refunding items that were under warranty with not obvious damage (i.e. it didn't look lie it was dropped etc).

TeresaDarling

I started a jewellery web shop last year, as I lost my job. I am 47 and starting from scratch with no help from anyone

My prices are very reasonable, I have a massive range of good quality stock that customers like and want.

What I don't have is the huge marketing budget that the big retailers do (I have no budget so have to do it the hard way), ecommerce is hard work, seriously hard work if you do not have large amounts of money to throw at it, I am working 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have been for months.

I may be a tiny fish in the reatail pond but I pay 23% vat on sales, I do not claim benefits and if I can generate enough business I will employ staff, small business's and start ups are being neglected yet we are the employers of the future plus small amounts of regular vat add up to a lot of money in the government coffers.

If the government want the independant retail sector to succeed then they need to support us, or there will only be multiples left. The enerprise board was a total waste of time, I got no help at all so, I asked if they could send a memo or mail to all thier staff with a link to my webshop and my facebook page and was looked at like I had asked to borrow the jet for a junket.

Internet shopping is being hailed as the future and it can be but we need a bit of help and support from the government as well as customers.

I was made to jump through hoops to get a .ie domain, my SSL cert and my merchant terminal, I am 100% official, there should be a section on gov.ie with a link to my website (everyones websites) stating that, free publicity and extra customers for me, security for customers and more revenue for the government at very little cost

AlmightyCushion

TeresaDarling wrote: »

I was made to jump through hoops to get a .ie domain, my SSL cert and my merchant terminal, I am 100% official, there should be a section on gov.ie with a link to my website (everyones websites) stating that, free publicity and extra customers for me, security for customers and more revenue for the government at very little cost

It would be a complete waste of money as nobody would look at it. Plus, it would be massively expensive having to vet every single website in the country and would provide very little security as there is nothing stopping a company with all the above going out of business or the owner doing a runner with all the money from a massive order etc.

TeresaDarling

It would be a complete waste of money as nobody would look at it. Plus, it would be massively expensive having to vet every single website in the country and would provide very little security as there is nothing stopping a company with all the above going out of business or the owner doing a runner with all the money from a massive order etc.

I am not suggesting anybody vets the site, if our tax returns are not in we will be struck off, if you run off with money the merchant bank that has to repay it will hunt you down, no one is going to place a massive order online unless they feel the company is safe. Those of us with .ie domains have to have our business's registered, those with .com do not

I am talking of a way of helping small independant online retailers who have registered to pay tax, gone through the proper channels and are trying to make a living instead of going on the dole, there has to be some way of "rewarding" us for not doing nixers and attempting to do things properly.

I disagree about nobody looking at it, most of my friends who do not shop online say it is because they are afraid of being ripped off and do not know how to check out how safe a website is, bit of a bummer when I have been vetted for a security cert, vetted for a merchant terminal (including 2 visits to the guards to get my passport verified) and now apparantly I have to be vetted again for the financial regulator, all of the above costs money

In my opinion the government are afraid to promote online shopping in case they upset the multiples yet a .ie domain has the most secure regulations of most countries in the world and should be something to be proud of and promoted worldwide to generate more sales and revenue