[Split from] Landlady/Landlord responsibility

makeorbrake

Marcusm wrote: »

You are mistaken as there is no "group" or single relationship; the OP has clearly stated that they each have contractual relations with the landlord separately. It is therefore very much the landlrd's reponisbility to ensure that there are no disputes or any interference by one resident with the enjoyment by the other tenants of the property. This is one reason why this sort of arrangement is not very common - the landlord must, in these circumstances, expect to spend more time on the day to day running of the property.

I sympathise with the OP's situation. It does seem that she is getting a raw deal here. However, whilst the reaction of the landlord doesn't seem appropriate, it's still an impossible situation for the landlord.

- What exactly would you have them do in this situation? If the wacko housemate has broken some laws, then something can be done. However, if that's not the case, how can there be an expectation that the landlord has to take action? They may well want to - but they could land themselves into a world of pain if they do so (legally)....OR...they simply may not be able to establish the facts where there is such conflict and it's one word against another.
Some have suggested here that the landlord has to get involved as they should be treating this in the same way as a 'business'. However, we also have to be realistic here. There are the points that I made above to consider. Furthermore, the landlord doesn't have a full understanding of whats going on in that house - not unless they are in breach of the tenancy arrangement - and are in the property on an ongoing basis - in breach of the tenant(s) right to privacy.


I'd be interested to hear views on this - as I *might* find myself in the same position as this landlord (there's a possibility I might be letting out a property with individual tenancy agreements with each house occupant in the not too distant future). I've thought about exactly this situation (as it has come up on boards and other discussion boards in the past) - and I honestly don't know how it can be dealt with to the satisfaction of all those involved....

Marcusm

makeorbrake wrote: »

I sympathise with the OP's situation. It does seem that she is getting a raw deal here. However, whilst the reaction of the landlord doesn't seem appropriate, it's still an impossible situation for the landlord.

- What exactly would you have them do in this situation? If the wacko housemate has broken some laws, then something can be done. However, if that's not the case, how can there be an expectation that the landlord has to take action? They may well want to - but they could land themselves into a world of pain if they do so (legally)....OR...they simply may not be able to establish the facts where there is such conflict and it's one word against another.
Some have suggested here that the landlord has to get involved as they should be treating this in the same way as a 'business'. However, we also have to be realistic here. There are the points that I made above to consider. Furthermore, the landlord doesn't have a full understanding of whats going on in that house - not unless they are in breach of the tenancy arrangement - and are in the property on an ongoing basis - in breach of the tenant(s) right to privacy.


I'd be interested to hear views on this - as I *might* find myself in the same position as this landlord (there's a possibility I might be letting out a property with individual tenancy agreements with each house occupant in the not too distant future). I've thought about exactly this situation (as it has come up on boards and other discussion boards in the past) - and I honestly don't know how it can be dealt with to the satisfaction of all those involved....

If you let to a family or a group of sharers, they will deal with their own squabbles (petty or otherwise) as their prior relationships condition them to do so. If you let to a disparate bunch, they will very likely involve you in these matters. Also, it's not a standard let and you'll need bespoke documentation to get it right; you'll be leasing a bedroom to each and granting use rights (typically a licence) over the shared facilities. As the agreement does not involve a self contained "dwelling" it's strongly arguable that RTA 2004 doesn't apply (some may disagree).

Unless you end up with a group that bonds and sorts out its own problems, you'll have to engage with the petty squabbles, likely siding with the majority and needing clearly defined rules and penalties for unacceptable conduct. Too much hassle.

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

I'd be interested to hear views on this - as I *might* find myself in the same position as this landlord (there's a possibility I might be letting out a property with individual tenancy agreements with each house occupant in the not too distant future)..

Don't do it. Ever.

Rent to the group, each jointly and severally liable. When somebody leaves and they find an acceptable replacement for you, do a new lease for the group. If the group is otherwise a good tenancy you can be flexible about rent at times of changeover (at your sole discretion).

makeorbrake

Marcusm wrote: »

If you let to a disparate bunch, they will very likely involve you in these matters. Unless you end up with a group that bonds and sorts out its own problems, you'll have to engage with the petty squabbles, likely siding with the majority and needing clearly defined rules and penalties for unacceptable conduct.

It does sound very messy to say the least. How can there be an expectation on the landlord to sort out 'problems' that are not so clearly defined - and that are based on biased information - as the landlord is not likely to have first hand experience of what is actually going on?...unless the most probable issues are pre-empted - and like you say, clearly defined rules are in place from day 1 in that regard?

Has anyone here been in that situation - either as a tenant or landlord? How were such things dealt with?

Deleted User wrote:

Don't do it. Ever.

Rent to the group, each jointly and severally liable. When somebody leaves and they find an acceptable replacement for you, do a new lease for the group. If the group is otherwise a good tenancy you can be flexible about rent at times of changeover (at your sole discretion).

I guess the only reason I am considering that is that it appears that the property in question was let on that basis in the past. It would be a student let (the property is very much geared towards that given it's location and build). Would it be best in that scenario to have all 5 sign a fixed term lease as a group? - is it possible for a group to sign one lease? Is it possible for utility bills to be put in the name of a group rather than one individual? What happens if one of them wants to bail out? The others are held accountable for the total rent?

ck83

makeorbrake wrote: »

It does sound very messy to say the least. How can there be an expectation on the landlord to sort out 'problems' that are not so clearly defined - and that are based on biased information - as the landlord is not likely to have first hand experience of what is actually going on?...unless the most probable issues are pre-empted - and like you say, clearly defined rules are in place from day 1 in that regard?

Has anyone here been in that situation - either as a tenant or landlord? How were such things dealt with?

I guess the only reason I am considering that is that it appears that the property in question was let on that basis in the past. It would be a student let (the property is very much geared towards that given it's location and build). Would it be best in that scenario to have all 5 sign a fixed term lease as a group? - is it possible for a group to sign one lease? Is it possible for utility bills to be put in the name of a group rather than one individual? What happens if one of them wants to bail out? The others are held accountable for the total rent?

Based on my quite recent experiences, you're unlikely to get a group of students to rent a house as a whole. Maybe post grad students, or fourth years who know each other well, but that's it. I don't think it's really the done thing for students to be expected to sign one lease and be jointly responsible for bills and rent etc. they won't have the money to cough up if their rent goes up because someone else leaves.
It would be much easier to rent the house to a group of non-students who rent the house as a whole, or to a family, but unfortunately, if its in an area densely populated with students, these groups probably wouldn't be interested.
Also- a lot of student houses wouldn't be that homely- sitting rooms and garages turned into bedrooms etc

makeorbrake

ck83 wrote: »

Based on my quite recent experiences, you're unlikely to get a group of students to rent a house as a whole. Maybe post grad students, or fourth years who know each other well, but that's it. I don't think it's really the done thing for students to be expected to sign one lease and be jointly responsible for bills and rent etc. they won't have the money to cough up if their rent goes up because someone else leaves.

This is exactly what I thought the reality would be - so whilst I appreciate others comments saying, 'dont go there' (in relation to separate tenancy agreements), I suspect this is the only way to go in this instance.

ck83 wrote: »

It would be much easier to rent the house to a group of non-students who rent the house as a whole, or to a family, but unfortunately, if its in an area densely populated with students, these groups probably wouldn't be interested.

Well, this property is really geared towards students - in fact, I'm fairly confident it was all but purpose built in that regard.

ck83 wrote: »

Also- a lot of student houses wouldn't be that homely- sitting rooms and garages turned into bedrooms etc

And that is the case. Whilst the property is relatively modern and more than acceptable, it wouldnt really appeal to working professionals.


That brings things back full circle - i.e. faced with a situation where individual tenancy agreements are put in place, how best should a landlord deal with the disputes that are going to arise (as that's a certainty - not just a possibility)?

In the OP's case, it's clear that the landlord didnt deal with this (and the outcome means a lose/lose for virtually all concerned to some extent or other), it's unclear as to how exactly a landlord should deal with this type of thing. I know others have said they should act - but its far from clearcut.

Anyone else have any experience of this type of tenancy arrangement - either as a tenant or landlord?

ck83

You might well be lucky and get a group of students who know each other. Usually after first year, ppl will join forces and house hunt in pairs/groups. Maybe ask what year they're in? Also- just pay attention when you're showing them the house- first impressions tell a lot. You could bring someone else with you- two first impressions is better than one! You could avoid taking anyone's money on the spot- encourage them to go away and think about it- if they seem a bit unbalanced, your line can be "oh sorry, a group swooped in and tool the property after you left"
Finally, most student houses will be relatively harmonious- ppl who don't get on with the others will usually stay out of the way- esp after they develop new friendships and start hanging out in their friends houses. They'll often all be going home at weekends and in the holidays, so just be using the house as a base to sleep In. Sometimes a group of first years who were previously strangers will click, and live in each others pocketsanf continue to live together after the first year, and other times they'll live separate lives. I've found that most ppl don't develop their inner crazy until they're a bit older than college age, so hopefully there'll be no major issues like the op's!

ck83

Also- when you're showing the house- if you think the prospective tenant has one major issue... Such as they smell bad. Refuse to let them rent the room. Everyone will hate the smelly one