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Thinking about giving keys back to the bank..
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And as for being angry at certain parties.
Maybe, like me, the poster is angry at people like you who are so willing to make me pay more for other people's financial decisions.
:mad:
I know its hard to believe but it does seem that there are a lot of people out there who don't understand how the country works from the point of view of where the government gets their money.0 -
Arguing that people "were stupid" to purchase homes during the bubble is redundant. A euphoric frenzy was intentionally created by the leadership class in this country with the aid of the media with the sole purpose of deceiving and feeding false information to the general public.
There was a mass effort to deceminate false and misleading information to the public and many, many financially illiterate citizens were duped. This misinformation is still being spread by some of the Irish 'news' papers. The Irish independant is, for example still trying desperately to reignite this mania and should be held to account.
Were I in negative equity, (like many including the OP) and restrained from living my day to day life in comfort, I'd have no reservations about renegotiating the terms of a loan contract which clearly would have been entered into because of the fraudulent or deceptive practices of our banks, media and our government.0 -
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Arguing that people "were stupid" to purchase homes during the bubble is redundant. A euphoric frenzy was intentionally created by the leadership class in this country with the aid of the media with the sole purpose of deceiving and feeding false information to the general public.
There was a mass effort to deceminate false and misleading information to the public and many, many financially illiterate citizens were duped. This misinformation is still being spread by some of the Irish 'news' papers. The Irish independant is, for example still trying desperately to reignite this mania and should be held to account.
Were I in negative equity, (like many including the OP) and restrained from living my day to day life in comfort, I'd have no reservations about renegotiating the terms of a loan contract which clearly would have been entered into because of the fraudulent or deceptive practices of our banks, media and our government.
Yeah whatever. Always someone else s fault.0 -
Let's have a quick review shall we...
- OP has a rental property he wants to hand back
- Currently lives in the UK with plans to move back and start a business
Doesn't sound like he's in real financial difficulty there - more like he's sick of dealing with his tenant and is more concerned about the impact the fallout of that will have on his new business idea :rolleyes:
Bankruptcy is (or should be) intended as a last resort for people who have no other choices available to them having already exhausted all options of paying their debt... not for someone who just wants to walk away from a choice he freely made and which hasn't worked out for him.
Sorry OP, but you made your choices and you have to live with the consequences - like an adult! - not expecting the taxpayer (of a country you no longer live in I might add!) to pick up the bill just because your dream of becoming a property magnate didn't work as planned.
Pay your bills!0 -
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Yeah whatever. Always someone else s fault.
It's not just someone else's fault.
It's yours, mine , the OP's and anyone who tolerates this banana republic.
So get off your high horse and do something constructive to put an end to this pay to play BS.
Fix the systemic problem, (cause) not the negative equity (effect).0 -
It's not just someone else's fault.
It's yours, mine , the OP's and anyone who tolerates this banana republic.
So get off your high horse and do something constructive to put an end to this pay to play BS.
Fix the systemic problem, (cause) not the negative equity (effect).
Sure..
Step 1 - Make people who CAN pay but just don't WANT to pay (as in this case by all accounts) settle their debts in full.. even if it takes them the rest of their lives to do so!
I got the calls every fortnight too telling me I'd been "pre-approved" for hundreds of thousands of euro for a mortgage. The difference is I said no.
Here's part of a post I made over in this thread that might help you understand why...1. Although a Dub born and bred, I must've been passed over for the "must own a house/apartment, must get on property ladder, renting is dead money" gene that got the country into this mess (alongside the thought that you too can become a property magnate of course)
This means that, while sure I wouldn't MIND having my own property, it has to fulfil a number of criteria first.
(a) It has to be somewhere where I want to live, not just can afford to. I spent most of 2011 doing a 1000 km weekly commute to work and while it was motorway 95% of the way and only took about an hour door-to-door, the running costs of doing that are ridiculous - plus it IS nice being home (now) before 5pm
(b) Related to the above, it has to be near work yes but also my friends, family, decent shops, facilities etc. I've no interest in living in the back-end of
nowhere with 500 others in a half-finished housing estate with the nearest shop being maybe 10/20 mins drive away.
(c) I have to be able to afford it. By this I mean being able to make the repayments without simply ending up with no life and working only to pay off the mortgage. Not for me thanks. Plus I don't think the prices have hit bottom anyway what with the situation created by NAMA stockpiling property, the artificial floor in the rental market as a result of RA etc
But in the end, I suppose my primary reason is that I just don't have this Irish NEED to own my own place. I do think that the rental market needs serious reform though and a shift away from the Irish model of short-term tenancies of a year or two (on average) to one where 5/10/20 year arrangements are the norm like even up North and in Europe so that you CAN make your accommodation a home as opposed to the laughable setup where the house-proud landlord whinges about putting a feckin nail in a wall to hang a picture and hums and haws about changing the color scheme etc - yet still expects the tenant to cough up the inflated rent on time anyway.
We have a lot of things we need to do in this country, but still obsessing about property isn't it.0 -
It's not just someone else's fault.
It's yours, mine , the OP's and anyone who tolerates this banana republic.
So get off your high horse and do something constructive to put an end to this pay to play BS.
Fix the systemic problem, (cause) not the negative equity (effect).
Ands whats your solution to this problematic system exactly? How you do you propose fixing it?0 -
the op sounds like a case of won't pay rather than can't pay, and should face up to his responsibilities. at the end of the day nobody put a gun to his head to force him to buy the property.0
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It's not just someone else's fault.
It's yours, mine , the OP's and anyone who tolerates this banana republic.
So get off your high horse and do something constructive to put an end to this pay to play BS.
Fix the systemic problem, (cause) not the negative equity (effect).
I've given up with this ****hole and I'll be bringing up kids in another country.0 -
I've given up with this ****hole and I'll be bringing up kids in another country.
Then why are you concerned about the OP's position?
Ps. I haven't lived in Ireland in more than a quarter century but I still feel responsible to an extent because I did not speak out louder and with more conviction back then.
I was in the process of purchasing a house in 2001 in Galway but decided then that prices were overly inflated. Luckily, I had the benefit of being able to view the Irish property market in perspective and it was easy to see that property in Galway which was commanding higher prices that similar property's in world class major city's was over priced.
I cannot however imagine how people who did not have the benifit of this perspective and who were refused access to reasonable and pertinent information (price history) could possibly determine price or value.
It's absurd to think that this information was withheld and it's even more absurd to think that these people, the home buyers should be chained for life to properties because of this.
Afterall, It's no crime to wish better for ones self and ones family. The only crimes committed were and still are by those VI's.0 -
Ands whats your solution to this problematic system exactly? How you do you propose fixing it?
The solution is going to be a complex long term process.
Debt forgiveness in exchange for equity, lowering of interest rates (if possible).
Sharing of burden by banks and homeowners.
VI's need to be held accountable. Where's the perp walk? Or should we just give up and conceded that Ireland is a total farce?0 -
Then why are you concerned about the OP's position?
Ps. I haven't lived in Ireland in more than a quarter century but I still feel responsible to an extent because I did not speak out louder and with more conviction back then.
I was in the process of purchasing a house in 2001 in Galway but decided then that prices were overly inflated. Luckily, I had the benefit of being able to view the Irish property market in perspective and it was easy to see that property in Galway which was commanding higher prices that similar property's in world class major city's was over priced.
I cannot however imagine how people who did not have the benifit of this perspective and who were refused access to reasonable and pertinent information (price history) could possibly determine price or value.
It's absurd to think that this information was withheld and it's even more absurd to think that these people, the home buyers should be chained for life to properties because of this.
Afterall, It's no crime to wish better for ones self and ones family. The only crimes committed were and still are by those VI's.
But you're contradicting yourself here...
You've just said that you were set to buy a house in Ireland but took another look at it and decided against it. Now unless you had access to a crystal ball, I don't see why anyone else couldn't have done what you did - ESPECIALLY when prices got to truly ridiculous levels!
You chose not to go ahead with it, in the same way as the OP (and thousands like him) did. That's fair enough - but complaining now because your choice hasn't worked out (as the OP - and again many like him - is doing) and worse, expecting someone ELSE to now pick up the tab for this decision, is where the problem lies.
And yes, I'm afraid that if it means that it takes him/them the rest of his life to pay that debt then that's what he does - because you can be damn sure that if the bubble hadn't burst he'd still be happily sitting on his "investment" without a care for anyone less fortunate.0 -
The solution is going to be a complex long term process.
Debt forgiveness in exchange for equity, lowering of interest rates (if possible).
Sharing of burden by banks and homeowners.
VI's need to be held accountable. Where's the perp walk? Or should we just give up and conceded that Ireland is a total farce?
There should absolutely be NO "debt forgiveness" for those who gambled and lost, no more than there should have been for the banks/builders in the first place, and contrary to what seems to being advocated here, 2 wrongs don't magically make a right.
What needs to happen is lenders need to work with their clients (forced to if necessary) to restructure payments to realistic levels according to that individual's circumstances - but under no circumstance should that money just be "written off" or "forgiven" because the debt won't actually disappear you know.. it'll just be passed on to the bank's other customers (which in the case of almost all of ours is who?... yes, the taxpayer!)
The only ones who should share the burden is the bank itself and the person who owes the debt. My name isn't on the mortgage after all, nor can I decide to move in to that house if I wanted to so why should I end up paying for it??
I do agree on one point though - this country is pretty much a lost cause at this stage. Between teachers/publicans/lawyers playing statesmen, most of the decision making now being out of our hands anyway (thank you Europe!), and the Irish attitude to politics/civic responsibility not extending beyond "well what are you going to do for ME?!", I can't ever see there being real change in this country.0 -
I think there should be some forgiveness ,in cases where someone puts the house up for sale,gives all financial info to bank, and has a lower income,difficulty in paying the full loan.
And is in some financial hardship, and it could be monitored for fairness by some independent body.eg MABS.
I,M not saying someone on 75k income, can just go to bank, and say,here,s the keys,
house is worth,100k,my loan is 200k, please write off 65k.I,ll sell the house.
Theres people already getting 100 per cent forgiveness now,
by going to the uk.0 -
Kaiser2000 wrote: »But you're contradicting yourself here...
You've just said that you were set to buy a house in Ireland but took another look at it and decided against it. Now unless you had access to a crystal ball, I don't see why anyone else couldn't have done what you did - ESPECIALLY when prices got to truly ridiculous levels!
You chose not to go ahead with it, in the same way as the OP (and thousands like him) did. That's fair enough - but complaining now because your choice hasn't worked out (as the OP - and again many like him - is doing) and worse, expecting someone ELSE to now pick up the tab for this decision, is where the problem lies.
And yes, I'm afraid that if it means that it takes him/them the rest of his life to pay that debt then that's what he does - because you can be damn sure that if the bubble hadn't burst he'd still be happily sitting on his "investment" without a care for anyone less fortunate.
If you read my post correctly you'll see what my crystal ball is and no, there is no contradiction in my post.
Further to my post I'd argue that there is no meeting of the minds in these contracts because on side , the buyer has pertinent information withheld (sales history) and therefore these contracts should not be enforceable
.
The only people I'd like to see in shackles are the people who were the architects of this ponzi scheme.
Again, how many of them are held accountable?
The wink, wink, nod, nod culture in Ireland is despicable IMO.0 -
Kaiser2000 wrote: »There should absolutely be NO "debt forgiveness" for those who gambled and lost, no more than there should have been for the banks/builders in the first place, and contrary to what seems to being advocated here, 2 wrongs don't magically make a right.
What needs to happen is lenders need to work with their clients (forced to if necessary) to restructure payments to realistic levels according to that individual's circumstances - but under no circumstance should that money just be "written off" or "forgiven" because the debt won't actually disappear you know.. it'll just be passed on to the bank's other customers (which in the case of almost all of ours is who?... yes, the taxpayer!)
The only ones who should share the burden is the bank itself and the person who owes the debt. My name isn't on the mortgage after all, nor can I decide to move in to that house if I wanted to so why should I end up paying for it??
I do agree on one point though - this country is pretty much a lost cause at this stage. Between teachers/publicans/lawyers playing statesmen, most of the decision making now being out of our hands anyway (thank you Europe!), and the Irish attitude to politics/civic responsibility not extending beyond "well what are you going to do for ME?!", I can't ever see there being real change in this country.
And respectfully I'd argue that it's attitudes like yours that if left unchallenged will guarantee many more generations of of Irish to be condemned to subjugation.0 -
Kaiser2000 wrote: »There should absolutely be NO "debt forgiveness" for those who gambled and lost, no more than there should have been for the banks/builders in the first place, and contrary to what seems to being advocated here, 2 wrongs don't magically make a right.
What needs to happen is lenders need to work with their clients (forced to if necessary) to restructure payments to realistic levels according to that individual's circumstances - but under no circumstance should that money just be "written off" or "forgiven" because the debt won't actually disappear you know.. it'll just be passed on to the bank's other customers (which in the case of almost all of ours is who?... yes, the taxpayer!)
The only ones who should share the burden is the bank itself and the person who owes the debt. My name isn't on the mortgage after all, nor can I decide to move in to that house if I wanted to so why should I end up paying for it??
I do agree on one point though - this country is pretty much a lost cause at this stage. Between teachers/publicans/lawyers playing statesmen, most of the decision making now being out of our hands anyway (thank you Europe!), and the Irish attitude to politics/civic responsibility not extending beyond "well what are you going to do for ME?!", I can't ever see there being real change in this country.
I'd agree with some of what you say but that debt forgiveness in some situations is valid. Say a person looses their PPR/PDH and they have no money. Bank sells home and there's still an outstanding balance. If it's shown that the owner cannot pay and payment would lead to penal servitude then the overhang should be forgiven. Let the person start again. There's no more that can be down to them.
Re politics. Why not enter yourself (honest question that). Also a proportional representation system with a list system would stop the parish politics substantially0 -
I THINK the new personal insolvency bill is there, to help, people whose income has dropped drastically and who owe say 200k,
to get back to a normal life ,assuming they give the house back to the bank,
I expect the banks will try and make it so ,the rules will be very
strict ,to stop it being used as a strategic default.
ie you,ll be allowed to hold onto a car ,tools of the trade ,eg plumbers tools etc.You wont be able to hold onto other assets ,or savings, over x amount.
Why would the bank write off, 100k, say house is worth 100, my loan
is 200k, my salary is 45k, loan is buy to let.
Can I just SELL house and forget ,about the balance?
The taxpayer can,t afford it, at present 95 per cent irish banks are owned by the government.
Maybe they could bring in a rule ,if your income has reduced by x per cent ,loan is x , you are in negative equity by 70 per cent,
IF you sell house ,bank will write off x per cent,
eg you,d still owe 80 per cent of balance , bank writes off 20 per cent money owed.0 -
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I think there should be some forgiveness ,in cases where someone puts the house up for sale,gives all financial info to bank, and has a lower income,difficulty in paying the full loan.
And is in some financial hardship, and it could be monitored for fairness by some independent body.eg MABS.
Boll*x if you cant pay then declare bankruptcy. Tough0 -
Arguing that people "were stupid" to purchase homes during the bubble is redundant. A euphoric frenzy was intentionally created by the leadership class in this country with the aid of the media with the sole purpose of deceiving and feeding false information to the general public.
There was a mass effort to deceminate false and misleading information to the public and many, many financially illiterate citizens were duped. This misinformation is still being spread by some of the Irish 'news' papers. The Irish independant is, for example still trying desperately to reignite this mania and should be held to account.
Were I in negative equity, (like many including the OP) and restrained from living my day to day life in comfort, I'd have no reservations about renegotiating the terms of a loan contract which clearly would have been entered into because of the fraudulent or deceptive practices of our banks, media and our government.
Exactly, many people just needed to buy a family home and are now stuck in a bad situation, while some rich liar profits.
If I was you op.....I would hand the keys back to the bank and just stay in London.
Same advise to anyone stuck in massive negative equity. Hand keys back and just leave this terrible Country that put you in this mess.....if you can.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
Exactly, many people just needed to buy a family home and are now stuck in a bad situation, while some rich liar profits.
If I was you op.....I would hand the keys back to the bank and just stay in London.
Same advise to anyone stuck in massive negative equity. Hand keys back and just leave this terrible Country that put you in this mess.....if you can.
If you leave the country- you are still liable for the debt- and can be pursued in most countries, including all the EU, The US, Canada and Australia. We have reciprochal agreements with most countries.
If the debt is too onerous- and you are financially incapable of servicing it- perhaps declaring bankruptcy either in the UK, or Ireland under the new rules, might be an idea. The OP is not in this position- his biggest problem is he has tenants who aren't paying their rent, which has put him under pressure vis-a-vis the mortgage and as he isn't based here, he hasn't done anything about it. Regardless of where in the country the property is- there is no excuse for not evicting tenants who don't pay the rent- and the OP has allowed his tenants get away with this. I don't know whether he has followed eviction procedures or not- or whether he is pursuing them via the PRTB- whether he likes it or not, as a landlord- he is responsible for doing this.
There are plenty of folk out there who bought into the hype- who are deserving of some sort of an arrangement with the bank- but landlords who don't bother chasing non-paying tenants certainly wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list of people I must help.
The OP thought he'd have a simple solution- hand the keys back to the bank and let them sort out the mess. Well, nice try- you bought the property, and irrespective of whether its in negative equity or not- its up to you to sort out any irregularities with your tenants.0 -
smccarrick wrote: »If you leave the country- you are still liable for the debt- and can be pursued in most countries, including all the EU, The US, Canada and Australia. We have reciprochal agreements with most countries.
If the debt is too onerous- and you are financially incapable of servicing it- perhaps declaring bankruptcy either in the UK, or Ireland under the new rules, might be an idea. The OP is not in this position- his biggest problem is he has tenants who aren't paying their rent, which has put him under pressure vis-a-vis the mortgage and as he isn't based here, he hasn't done anything about it. Regardless of where in the country the property is- there is no excuse for not evicting tenants who don't pay the rent- and the OP has allowed his tenants get away with this. I don't know whether he has followed eviction procedures or not- or whether he is pursuing them via the PRTB- whether he likes it or not, as a landlord- he is responsible for doing this.
There are plenty of folk out there who bought into the hype- who are deserving of some sort of an arrangement with the bank- but landlords who don't bother chasing non-paying tenants certainly wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list of people I must help.
The OP thought he'd have a simple solution- hand the keys back to the bank and let them sort out the mess. Well, nice try- you bought the property, and irrespective of whether its in negative equity or not- its up to you to sort out any irregularities with your tenants.
The problem with the underlined part of your statement is that the OP and all landlords have to jump through hoops and have little recourse when tenants stop paying the rent and I remind you that most landlords have finite liquid assets.
It's in vogue at present in The pc society in which we all live to to put up every obstacle possible to the removal of people from their homes.
The knock on effect of this over burdensome process of eviction has a multiplier effect and it is illogical to suggest that the landlord, whose hands are effectivly tied by these laws (which most support) is the root of the problem.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
Perhaps the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction then, and we need to rethink the rights and obligations of both tenants and landlords. In Ireland we have an unreal hatred of landlords- and are more than willing to believe the worst of landlords, over and above a tenant any day of the week. The supports and structures in place, thwart any landlord who tries to evict an errant tenant- or indeed a destructive or antisocial tenant.
Good luck to anyone who tries to reform tenants and landlord's rights and obligations- its a wholly thankless task, but one that deserves all our support nonetheless.0 -
If they could find a way to speed up the PRTB so that a case is heard and settled in a matter of weeks rather than the months or year that it takes now then landlords would be in a much better position regarding evictions. The idea that a tenant can stop paying rent and it could take over a year before they can take forceful action to have them removed from the property is absolutely ridiculous.
The process itself I have little problem with. Tenants need protecting and there is nothing wrong with ensuring that the landlords case against them is absolutely watertight and legitimate before they can proceed with an eviction.0 -
At least with the bailout of some banks (note I didn't say all) the country benefitted to an extent.
I know some would argue that, but a country losing it's systemic banks overnight would be in total chaos and turmoil.
Please walk me through this slowly. How exactly has the country benefitted and in what tangible ways from the bank bailouts?
Also, to what extent do you believe the banks that were bailed out were 'systemic' as you put it, and do you actually believe that the alternative to bailing out those banks would have been 'total chaos and turmoil'?0 -
I read that as; "Hand keys back and just leave this terrible Country that you put in this mess" - if everyone leaves, those left will have to pick up the pieces.Same advise to anyone stuck in massive negative equity. Hand keys back and just leave this terrible Country that put you in this mess.....if you can.
Although I wouldn't phrase it "total chaos and turmoil", if all the banks were let hit the wall, no-one in their right mind would lend to Ireland, or to anyone in Ireland. This would lead to an abrupt f**k up of state finances, and certain public sector agencies (Gardai, doctors, nurses, etc) being hit the hardest.Cavehill Red wrote: »Also, to what extent do you believe the banks that were bailed out were 'systemic' as you put it, and do you actually believe that the alternative to bailing out those banks would have been 'total chaos and turmoil'?0 -
I read that as; "Hand keys back and just leave this terrible Country that you put in this mess" - if everyone leaves, those left will have to pick up the pieces.
Trust me they're already leaving:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/emigration-at-famine-levels-as-200-leave-country-each-day-3339480.htmlMORE than 200 people a day left Ireland during 2012, as emigration surged to levels not experienced since the famine.Central Statistics Office figures show that 87,000 people left Ireland in the 12 months to April 2012, including 46,500 Irish nationals.
What do you think is keeping the live register and thus our social welfare numbers/costs down?0 -
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The Net figure isnt as dramatic -- 52,700 came to Ireland during the same period - 20,600 of whom were Irish nationals0
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