Continuity IRA threat

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Well I dont know anyone in the CIRA, and I presume you dont either, I have talked to a couple of people in RSF and outside of one of them I have to say that I wasnt at all impressed; bottom line is that we are both speculating as to their motivations. I just dont think your speculations are rational.

I have shown though how likely British soldiers are to be arrested for ordinary criminal offenses after they come out of the service- if you could show arrests for ordinary criminal offenses by CIRA and RSF members I would be very interested. I cant think of any.

You showed the arrest rates for ex soldiers suffering from PTSD which is a false comparison to active dissident paramiltarys. Also the British army is over 100000 men (all it is being reduced to 80000) with who knows how many 10's of thousands of men ( and women) veterans from Falklands, Northern Ireland, Iraq afghan. To compare that to the crimal actions of what is effectively a few hundred men is frankly ridiculous

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

You showed the arrest rates for ex soldiers suffering from PTSD which is a false comparison to active dissident paramiltarys. Also the British army is over 100000 men (all it is being reduced to 80000) with who knows how many 10's of thousands of men ( and women) veterans from Falklands, Northern Ireland, Iraq afghan. To compare that to the crimal actions of what is effectively a few hundred men is frankly ridiculous

No I showed how many were in jail for ordinary crimes.

The talk of PTSD isnt proved. The British Army draws on the lowest morally elements of society who would most likely have ended up in prison anyway. After all the British Army recruits in prisons- what does that tell you?

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

No I showed how many were in jail for ordinary crimes.

The talk of PTSD isnt proved. The British Army draws on the lowest morally elements of society who would most likely have ended up in prison anyway. After all the British Army recruits in prisons- what does that tell you?

Sure, And cira recruits from the cream of Irish society. Having a crimnal record is likely to bar you from the army these days espically as its downsizing so its laying of people so new recruits are likely to find it harder to join. And if by dregs of society you mean poor inner city kids then yer if they left school without qualifications then the army may be the only chance that they have of getting a decent career. And yes the links you provided where dealing with primarly with veterans, parhaps you should try reading what you post

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

And yes the links you provided where dealing with primarly with veterans, parhaps you should try reading what you post

Indeed; that doesnt prove that they committed their crimes because of PTSD though. That is just speculation. The fact that they were prepared to go over and engage in violence, often against civilians, in countries they probably know nothing about I think shows that they had a serious moral disconnect to begin with?

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

No I showed how many were in jail for ordinary crimes.

The talk of PTSD isnt proved. The British Army draws on the lowest morally elements of society who would most likely have ended up in prison anyway. After all the British Army recruits in prisons- what does that tell you?

It does?

Where do all the Rodneys come from then?

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

And if by dregs of society you mean poor inner city kids then yer if they left school without qualifications then the army may be the only chance that they have of getting a decent career.

Side by side with ordinary working class in deprived areas lives another class which is fundamentally different because it earns its living in very different ways and so a different view of life, indeed in many ways an opposite one; this class is essentially parasitic, violent and highly individualist- it is made up of drug dealers, house-breakers, pimps, muggers, professional hard men, etc, etc. It is from this class that the average Squaddie comes from. The Officer caste is a whole other thing- the famous British class system being particularly strong in the Army.

The fact that Loyalists are most enthusiastic about the British Army and the Royal Family as British Instituations that unite them to the mainland really says something I think.

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

Side by side with ordinary working class in deprived areas lives another class which is fundamentally different because it earns its living in very different ways and so a different view of life, indeed in many ways an opposite one; this class is essentially parasitic, violent and highly individualist- it is made up of drug dealers, house-breakers, pimps, muggers, professional hard men, etc, etc. It is from this class that the average Squaddie comes from. The Officer caste is a whole other thing- the famous British class system being particularly strong in the Army.

The fact that Loyalists are most enthusiastic about the British Army and the Royal Family as British Instituations that unite them to the mainland really says something I think.

Lol, you are only showing your own prejudice tbh.

Junder, don't feed this troll anymore, he has already dragged this thread way off topic.

sure joe

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is there?

They both spend the majority of their overseas time on UN missions, except British politicians have the balls to let their soldiers actually do soldiering

so why dont the politicians (with such big balls)go out to afghanistan and wherever else they to practise on unarmed civilians including women and children. why do they send illiterate, uneducated, unnemployable, ex criminal toe rags. is the short term cost of a military funeral cheaper in the long run than a life in prison or on benifits

Death and Taxes

sure joe wrote: »

so why dont the politicians (with such big balls)go out to afghanistan and wherever else they to practise on unarmed civilians including women and children. why do they send illiterate, uneducated, unnemployable, ex criminal toe rags. is the short term cost of a military funeral cheaper in the long run than a life in prison or on benifits

The original speech was never filmed,but here is Kenneth Brannagh recreating Colonel Tim Collins speech to his men prior to the Iraq Invasion.
hardly the words of an illiterate, uneducated, unnemployable, ex criminal toe rag"

Video posted to counter what I consider to have been a shameful and highly inaccurate description as highlighted above.

sure joe

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The original speech was never filmed,but here is Kenneth Brannagh recreating Colonel Tim Collins speech to his men prior to the Iraq Invasion.
hardly the words of an illiterate, uneducated, unnemployable, ex criminal toe rag"

Video posted to counter what I consider to have been a shameful and highly inaccurate description as highlighted above.

so this is a nice bit of acting. whats your point. the british and american armies are full of young half witted men, whom these colonel and politicians consider to be entirely disposable.

murphaph

sure joe wrote: »

so this is a nice bit of acting. whats your point. the british and american armies are full of young half witted men, whom these colonel and politicians consider to be entirely disposable.

And do you think Irish army privates are fundamentally different to their US and UK counterparts?

Death and Taxes

sure joe wrote: »

so this is a nice bit of acting. whats your point. the british and american armies are full of young half witted men, whom these colonel and politicians consider to be entirely disposable.

My point is that your description of those serving in the British Army as ex-criminal,illiterate, toe rags was contradictable, and I contadicted it. The speech as read Brannagh is verbatim btw, so the acting has little to do with it.
Can you actually supply any evidence that those serving in the British Army actually are "illiterate, ex criminal, toe rags"? Or is that just a highly prejudiced, inaccurate opinion, born of bias and ignorance?

pablomakaveli

sure joe wrote: »

so why dont the politicians (with such big balls)go out to afghanistan and wherever else they to practise on unarmed civilians including women and children. why do they send illiterate, uneducated, unnemployable, ex criminal toe rags. is the short term cost of a military funeral cheaper in the long run than a life in prison or on benifits

Well since you seem so sure, could you show us your proof that British and American are being told to target unarmed women and children?

Id also like to see your evidence that the British army is made up of " illiterate, uneducated, unnemployable, ex criminal toe rags". Given that i literate college graduate with no criminal record is serving in the British army i seem to contradict this claim.

sure joe

WileyCoyote wrote: »

My point is that your description of those serving in the British Army as ex-criminal,illiterate, toe rags was contradictable, and I contadicted it. The speech as read Brannagh is verbatim btw, so the acting has little to do with it.
Can you actually supply any evidence that those serving in the British Army actually are "illiterate, ex criminal, toe rags"? Or is that just a highly prejudiced, inaccurate opinion, born of bias and ignorance?

just as your desciption of members of the c.i.r.a is contradictable.

sure joe

murphaph wrote: »

And do you think Irish army privates are fundamentally different to their US and UK counterparts?

in so far as i am not aware of them entering other countries to oust leaders and murder citzens. to try and ensure they stay top of the pile and hold. i feel the irish army would be generally regarded as good peace keepers at least in countries were they can tell the difference

pablomakaveli

sure joe wrote: »

in so far as i am not aware of them entering other countries to oust leaders and murder citzens. to try and ensure they stay top of the pile and hold. i feel the irish army would be generally regarded as good peace keepers at least in countries were they can tell the difference

What has decisions made by politicians (in regard to invading countries) got to do with the intelligence of soldiers?

Also any proof that British soldiers are ordered to murder civilians? I must have missed that bit in my training.

sure joe

pablomakaveli wrote: »

What has decisions made by politicians (in regard to invading countries) got to do with the intelligence of soldiers?

Also any proof that British soldiers are ordered to murder civilians? I must have missed that bit in my training.

i would say its more down to fear and incompetence than orders. but its all about creating fear and gaining control

sure joe

pablomakaveli wrote: »

What has decisions made by politicians (in regard to invading countries) got to do with the intelligence of soldiers?

Also any proof that British soldiers are ordered to murder civilians? I must have missed that bit in my training.

can any of these extremely intelligent privates serving in afghan tell us why they are there.apart from following orders

pablomakaveli

sure joe wrote: »

i would say its more down to fear and incompetence than orders. but its all about creating fear and gaining control

Thats only your opinion and not fact. A person who gets overcome by fear and is incompetent wont even make it as a soldier let alone get deployed to afghnaistan.

sure joe wrote: »

can any of these extremely intelligent privates serving in afghan tell us why they are there.apart from following orders

Given that they are briefed about it and taught about life and culture in afghanistan before they deploy there yes they can. Probably a lot better than the hysterical ignorant nonsense you've been spouting on this thread.

K-9

I'm a bit puzzled that a thread about the Continuity IRA and dissidents is talking about Afghanistan. Keep it on topic please.

SoulandForm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The original speech was never filmed,but here is Kenneth Brannagh recreating Colonel Tim Collins speech to his men prior to the Iraq Invasion.
hardly the words of an illiterate, uneducated, unnemployable, ex criminal toe rag" .

Indeed;

"Although only 5% of school-age children attend public schools, half the army’s officer corps still come from the private education sector. Fewer than 6% of officers are working-class men and women who have worked their way up through the ranks. This class division is reinforced by the existence of separate messes and barracks and sometimes even separate entrances to buildings - the lower ranks being required to use the ‘tradesmen’s’ entrance at the rear."

Tribune, 17th July 1987.

We are not talking about Colonels mate.

sure joe

K-9 wrote: »

I'm a bit puzzled that a thread about the Continuity IRA and dissidents is talking about Afghanistan. Keep it on topic please.

it was about the cira threat to those joining the british army. who may well end up serving in afghanistan and surely will face a much more real threat than the cira

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Indeed;

"Although only 5% of school-age children attend public schools, half the army’s officer corps still come from the private education sector. Fewer than 6% of officers are working-class men and women who have worked their way up through the ranks. This class division is reinforced by the existence of separate messes and barracks and sometimes even separate entrances to buildings - the lower ranks being required to use the ‘tradesmen’s’ entrance at the rear."

Tribune, 17th July 1987.

We are not talking about Colonels mate.

Really? The best you can do is a 26 year old articule

sure joe

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Thats only your opinion and not fact. A person who gets overcome by fear and is incompetent wont even make it as a soldier let alone get deployed to afghnaistan.



Given that they are briefed about it and taught about life and culture in afghanistan before they deploy there yes they can. Probably a lot better than the hysterical ignorant nonsense you've been spouting on this thread.

so they are there to study foreign culture. apart from that what in your educated opinion is the reason that the british are in afghanistan. why were they in iraq

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

Really? The best you can do is a 26 year old articule

For the moment. Has there been any major reforms of the BA? No didnt think so.

K-9

sure joe wrote: »

it was about the cira threat to those joining the british army. who may well end up serving in afghanistan and surely will face a much more real threat than the cira

Don't argue moderation on thread, it's a site wide rule. Again I can't see why we are talking about Afghanistan and Iraq so stay on topic, start another thread on the British Army if you want.

Morpheus

sure joe wrote: »

in so far as i am not aware of them entering other countries to oust leaders and murder citzens. to try and ensure they stay top of the pile and hold. i feel the irish army would be generally regarded as good peace keepers at least in countries were they can tell the difference

Good peace keepers?

Peace Keeping is just a role. They are good soldiers full stop, just like the brits and yanks are too. Irish peoples perceptions are that they just do a blue helmet role. there's peace enforcement like chad or liberia and then theres security roles like in kosovo. Peace Keeping isnt just watching a border through binoculars from a distance, they are often directly in the line of fire between two belligerents that couldn't give a f**k about the peace keepers. What happens when the US pulls out of A'stan or Iraq and the UN is asked for peace keepers? you think that by wearing a blue hat and rolling around in white vehicles that they will be any less targeted than the currently deployed NATO forces there (of which 7 soldiers are from the defence forces through the NATO PFP mission with ISAF)

theyre not all illiterate nor are their counterparts in other forces. they come from a vast collection of backgrounds and upbringings and from across all walks of life in this country, most importantly, just like in other countries, its very f**king hard to join an army if you have a criminal record.

Morpheus

SoulandForm wrote: »

Indeed;

"Although only 5% of school-age children attend public schools, half the army’s officer corps still come from the private education sector. Fewer than 6% of officers are working-class men and women who have worked their way up through the ranks. This class division is reinforced by the existence of separate messes and barracks and sometimes even separate entrances to buildings - the lower ranks being required to use the ‘tradesmen’s’ entrance at the rear."

Tribune, 17th July 1987.

We are not talking about Colonels mate.

Theres a reason for the seperation of officers and NCO's and Privates. If you arent in the military you just wont understand. Also to be an officer in most militaries will require that A. you undergo education to recieve a degree once you finish the cadetship or B. they hire someone else who already has a degree before their cadetship. no points for guessing which costs less to a countrys military.

Fratton Fred

sure joe wrote: »

so they are there to study foreign culture. apart from that what in your educated opinion is the reason that the british are in afghanistan. why were they in iraq

The British army are in Afghanistan because of UN Security Council resolution 1386. You might want to take a look at the countries that voted in favour of that resolution. It might give you an idea as to why Ireland also has a contribution to ISAF.

The subject was also raised on the Military forum, "Should the Irish Defence Forces go to Afghanistan". There were some somewhat disturbing references, but the general consensus was that they would do anything to get out there.

There are three elements required under Irish law before the defence forces can be deployed over seas in number (referred to as the triple lock). Two of those three criteria have been met, the third, a vote in the Dail, is all that is required.

http://www.isaf.nato.int/troop-numbers-and-contributions/ireland/index.php

.jacksparrow.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The British army are in Afghanistan because of UN Security Council resolution 1386. You might want to take a look at the countries that voted in favour of that resolution. It might give you an idea as to why Ireland also has a contribution to ISAF.

The subject was also raised on the Military forum, "Should the Irish Defence Forces go to Afghanistan". There were some somewhat disturbing references, but the general consensus was that they would do anything to get out there.

There are three elements required under Irish law before the defence forces can be deployed over seas in number (referred to as the triple lock). Two of those three criteria have been met, the third, a vote in the Dail, is all that is required.

http://www.isaf.nato.int/troop-numbers-and-contributions/ireland/index.php

What about the Iraq war?I'm not trolling here or looking for a long winded argument,just the resolution for the invasion of Iraq.genuinely interested.

Fratton Fred

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

What about the Iraq war?I'm not trolling here or looking for a long winded argument,just the resolution for the invasion of Iraq.genuinely interested.

really :rolleyes:

[MOD]Not an acceptable response in itself, and also an accusation of trolling.[/MOD]

sure joe

Morpheus wrote: »

Good peace keepers?

Peace Keeping is just a role. They are good soldiers full stop, just like the brits and yanks are too. Irish peoples perceptions are that they just do a blue helmet role. there's peace enforcement like chad or liberia and then theres security roles like in kosovo. Peace Keeping isnt just watching a border through binoculars from a distance, they are often directly in the line of fire between two belligerents that couldn't give a f**k about the peace keepers. What happens when the US pulls out of A'stan or Iraq and the UN is asked for peace keepers? you think that by wearing a blue hat and rolling around in white vehicles that they will be any less targeted than the currently deployed NATO forces there (of which 7 soldiers are from the defence forces through the NATO PFP mission with ISAF)

theyre not all illiterate nor are their counterparts in other forces. they come from a vast collection of backgrounds and upbringings and from across all walks of life in this country, most importantly, just like in other countries, its very f**king hard to join an army if you have a criminal record.

if the u.s and brits are such good soliders then surely there wont be any mess for the peacekeepers to clean up. if the whole thing was badly thought out and unjustifiable and more importantly unwinnable, then they should have stayed at home. the best thing ireland could do is reduce our armed forces to a hundred or so. just to turn up at honary functions. god knows i would hate to be depending on them in the case of an unlikely invasion

junder

sure joe wrote: »

if the u.s and brits are such good soliders then surely there wont be any mess for the peacekeepers to clean up. if the whole thing was badly thought out and unjustifiable and more importantly unwinnable, then they should have stayed at home. the best thing ireland could do is reduce our armed forces to a hundred or so. just to turn up at honary functions. god knows i would hate to be depending on them in the case of an unlikely invasion

And you wonder why so many Irish citzens are joining the British army

sure joe

junder wrote: »

And you wonder why so many Irish citzens are joining the British army

it maybe that assisted sucide is still illegal or maybe they just want to see what it lokks like from the inside of a body bag

pablomakaveli

sure joe wrote: »

it maybe that assisted sucide is still illegal or maybe they just want to see what it lokks like from the inside of a body bag

Or maybe to get away from listening to moronic garbage like this.

Scofflaw

Well, that went well.

moderately,
Scofflaw