Average Industrial Wage

Bits_n_Bobs

Keep hearing on the headlines the CIE union spokesman saying bus drivers are on or just over the average industrial wage. Why always compare PS pay to the average industrial wage? Is PS/semi-state pay categorised as 'industry' by the CSO or something?

antoobrien

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Keep hearing on the headlines the CIE union spokesman saying bus drivers are on or just over the average industrial wage. Why always compare PS pay to the average industrial wage? Is PS/semi-state pay categorised as 'industry' by the CSO or something?

It's an attempt to make their case more favourable/palatable to the public.

Next time somebody says something like that ask them about the pension packages, travel passes & other perks.

wilson10

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Keep hearing on the headlines the CIE union spokesman saying bus drivers are on or just over the average industrial wage. Why always compare PS pay to the average industrial wage? Is PS/semi-state pay categorised as 'industry' by the CSO or something?

Heard that on the lunchtime news and just wondered what "just over the average industrial wage" actually means.

I reckon it's well over my average industrial wage.

leonidas83

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Keep hearing on the headlines the CIE union spokesman saying bus drivers are on or just over the average industrial wage. Why always compare PS pay to the average industrial wage? Is PS/semi-state pay categorised as 'industry' by the CSO or something?

Because imo, if they were to tell people what the average wage & benefits for driving a bus in this country were, they would find it extremely difficult to garner support outside their own union.

The average industrial wage in this country when including public sector pay is still quite high. But this is not a fair reflection of what the average worker earns in the private sector in this country. Take out public sector pay & these bus drivers are getting paid well over the average industrial wage

Bits_n_Bobs

leonidas83 wrote: »

BThe average industrial wage in this country when including public sector pay is still quite high.

So when compiling the average industrial wage figure public sector pay is included?

I agree with the (shocking ) cynicism that average industrial pay is a bit of a red herring as it's circa 6k/15% above average pay p.a., but just wondering if there is any legitimacy in using it.

antoobrien

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

So when compiling the average industrial wage figure public sector pay is included?

No, the "average industrial wage" is the average private sector wage.

Farmer Pudsey

CIE and the CIE unions have a huge issue. Over the last couple of years fares have risen by multiples of inflation. Again this has happened this year. this has lead them to lose farepayers. One of the reasons that the government did not remove the free travel from some OAP is that whatever they saved they would have to replace in the subvention to CIE. For all the unions talk of the Irish Public transpot system it is abysmal.

The motorways have hit hard at the intercity trains. Buses are as fast and way cheaper and for a family a car is now the best option. City bus fare in Dublin are very expensive and when I use them I do not find the drivers friendly. There treatment of holiday makers leave a lot to be desired.

There is now a movement to reduce costs and in the transport industry that usually means wages. I do not know what the average Dublin Bus driver earns but I would imagine that it away above the industry average.

Bits_n_Bobs

According to this article http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/theyre-on-the-industrial-wage-but-what-exactly-does-that-mean-3174854.html the CSO no longer uses 'average industrial wage' but instead uses 'average annual earnings'. So I guess it's a nice makey-upey statistic that can mean anything or nothing.

antoobrien

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

According to this article http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/theyre-on-the-industrial-wage-but-what-exactly-does-that-mean-3174854.html the CSO no longer uses 'average industrial wage' but instead uses 'average annual earnings'. So I guess it's a nice makey-upey statistic that can mean anything or nothing.

Nothing makey-upey about any of them. The average "industrial wage" is the average private sector gross wage - which can be gotten from the Source Earnings & Labour costs survey.

The average wage is the average gross wage of all employees.

Here's some figures to put some flesh on the topic.

Average gross wages as of Q3 2012
Category| €/w
Overall average | 694.96
Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51
Average Transport (both) | 721.23
< 50 employees | 547.19
50-250 employees | 622.02
> 250 employees | 823.98


Source: Earnings & Labour costs Q3 Preliminary estimates

spank_inferno

Quite a differential between private & public.

Bits_n_Bobs

antoobrien wrote: »

Nothing makey-upey about any of them. The average "industrial wage" is the average private sector gross wage - which can be gotten from the Source Earnings & Labour costs survey.
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From what I can see the CSO stopped using the term average industrial wage in 2008. I think it was because semi-states such as ESB were included in it (I am most open to correction on this as it's the result of half an hour googling), and instead switched to "Average private sector" as per your table.

I assume the CIE union spokesman is not sourcing his stats from 2008 as well as his terminology.....

unit 1

antoobrien wrote: »

Nothing makey-upey about any of them. The average "industrial wage" is the average private sector gross wage - which can be gotten from the Source Earnings & Labour costs survey.

The average wage is the average gross wage of all employees.

Here's some figures to put some flesh on the topic.

Average gross wages as of Q3 2012
Category| €/w
Overall average | 694.96
Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51
Average Transport (both) | 721.23
< 50 employees | 547.19
50-250 employees | 622.02
> 250 employees | 823.98


Source: Earnings & Labour costs Q3 Preliminary estimates

I notice when people mention the aiw it seems that the black economy is never taken into consideration.
Now nearly all black economy income is private sector, and should include social welfare, so black economy income = dole + benefits (if this was the ps we would be mentioning the free oap:P) + money earned from nixers.
If as is often speculated the black economy has mushroomed then it would be important difficult though it may be, to try and qunatify it, from a sensible forward planning point of view if nothing else.

Icepick

The vast majority of people earn below average wage.
Their wage should be compared with median wage and what their counterparts in private sector earn.
But regardless, their employer is bust and they should have had pay cuts a long time ago.

Idbatterim

I took a bus for the first time the other day from rathfarnham into town E2.30, its a joke. can buses run on lpg and do any of them? The idiots should realise that by continually jacking up the price, its only making the situation worse, its like the health insurance issue...

woodoo

spank_inferno wrote: »

Quite a differential between private & public.

I wish they would take the semi states like the ESB out of the public figure. I would like to know what the REAL public sector average is.

repsol

spank_inferno wrote: »

Quite a differential between private & public.

Yes there is and rightly so.Do you think a nurse who has a degree should earn what a waitress earns?Do you think a fireman,Garda or prison officer who has to regularly risk their neck and work weekends,Xmas,Bank Holidays and nights should be paid the same as a forklift driver or a factory worker? There are loads of PS workers who are 9-5 office staff but there are also a lot of frontline PS workers working crappy hours doing specialised,unpleasant and often dangerous work and they are entitled to be remunerated for it.

avalon68

repsol wrote: »

Yes there is and rightly so.Do you think a nurse who has a degree should earn what a waitress earns?Do you think a fireman,Garda or prison officer who has to regularly risk their neck and work weekends,Xmas,Bank Holidays and nights should be paid the same as a forklift driver or a factory worker? There are loads of PS workers who are 9-5 office staff but there are also a lot of frontline PS workers working crappy hours doing specialised,unpleasant and often dangerous work and they are entitled to be remunerated for it.

They are very well remunerated for it. Far better than their counterparts in other countries in most cases. I'm sick of hearing that front line workers are " special" and pay should be preserved......non-sense. No one is suggesting a nurse be paid the same as a waitress - but how about paying them the same as a nurse in say Northern Ireland? Do nurses work less hard/perform vastly different duties by driving ov the border? Government spending has to come down- they can't keep inventing new taxes while ignoring that....though they seem determined to try. Given the choice I would rather they cut pay than numbers of staff.

repsol

avalon68 wrote: »

They are very well remunerated for it. Far better than their counterparts in other countries in most cases. I'm sick of hearing that front line workers are " special" and pay should be preserved......non-sense. No one is suggesting a nurse be paid the same as a waitress - but how about paying them the same as a nurse in say Northern Ireland? Do nurses work less hard/perform vastly different duties by driving ov the border? Government spending has to come down- they can't keep inventing new taxes while ignoring that....though they seem determined to try. Given the choice I would rather they cut pay than numbers of staff.

I have no problem with aligning our pay with our colleagues across the border,provided social welfare rates and all tax rates are changed at the same time to the rate they have.

Brussels Sprout

Heard that Bus Driver Union guy on Newstalk at 6pm. He was throwing around the phrase "average industrial wage" as if he was saying "minimum wage". He also ducked a question on overtime rates.

It'd be interesting to see how many other OECD countries pay their bus drivers more than the average industrial wage as a basic pay package.

squod

If people disagree with them they should stop using them. I don't and won't.

I don't care what their pay is, what ridiculous sum their pension is. They're a poor service and they need updating or replacing.

Silentcorner

repsol wrote: »

Yes there is and rightly so.Do you think a nurse who has a degree should earn what a waitress earns?Do you think a fireman,Garda or prison officer who has to regularly risk their neck and work weekends,Xmas,Bank Holidays and nights should be paid the same as a forklift driver or a factory worker? There are loads of PS workers who are 9-5 office staff but there are also a lot of frontline PS workers working crappy hours doing specialised,unpleasant and often dangerous work and they are entitled to be remunerated for it.

Are you suggesting all public sector employees should be paid more than those in the private sector...

There are over 100,000 employees in the HSE, how many of them are nurses? It is the belief of many in the private sector that the HSE serves it's employees first, then the state...in fact it is not the only state organisation to have that charge levelled at it...

You are also neglecting to mention the security of tenure which those private sector employees do not have...and of course the guaranteed pensions...not to mention the more lax approach to absenteeism...or the holiday entitlements..

Nobody is entitled to anything, that is a poisonous mentality...

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Oh, goodie! Another PS bashing thread! Must be 9 or 10 minutes since the last one was started! :D:D:D:D:D:D

SCOOP 64

deccurley wrote: »

Oh, goodie! Another PS bashing thread! Must be 9 or 10 minutes since the last one was started! :D:D:D:D:D:D

yeah, and what about them people on the dole!:D

sarumite

deccurley wrote: »

Oh, goodie! Another PS bashing thread! Must be 9 or 10 minutes since the last one was started! :D:D:D:D:D:D

So any and all criticism (valid or not) can be immediately dismissed as PS bashing? Your reply is no better than the posts your are deriding. If it is simply PS bashing it will be easy to debunk using facts and logic. If you cannot debunk it using facts and logic, then you have to question whether the a thread is simply just PS bashing or not?

on edit: I am not giving my opinion regarding this thread, however I do think that it would be far more constructive for people to debunk an OP using facts and logic than merely labeling it a "PS bashing" thread and avoid even responding to the OP.

Silentcorner

deccurley wrote: »

Oh, goodie! Another PS bashing thread! Must be 9 or 10 minutes since the last one was started! :D:D:D:D:D:D

You'll find that they counterbalance the Pro Entitlement threads

repsol

Silentcorner wrote: »

Are you suggesting all public sector employees should be paid more than those in the private sector...

There are over 100,000 employees in the HSE, how many of them are nurses? It is the belief of many in the private sector that the HSE serves it's employees first, then the state...in fact it is not the only state organisation to have that charge levelled at it...

You are also neglecting to mention the security of tenure which those private sector employees do not have...and of course the guaranteed pensions...not to mention the more lax approach to absenteeism...or the holiday entitlements..

Nobody is entitled to anything, that is a poisonous mentality...

I am highlighting the fact that a lot of PS workers are deserving of their package of benefits.There are many pen pushers in the HSE etc who deserve the chop.Most HSE staff provide valuable skilled work.The security of tenure and pension is a 2 way street as it prevents PS workers with skills being tempted away.Private sector workers enjoy a lot of perks also.How many private workers enjoy company cars,company credit cards,pensions,bonuses,reduced VHI schemes,staff discounts,EVERY weekend,Xmas and Bank Holiday off to enjoy with their families,EVERY night in their own bed not working shifts.I am a firefighter and I have NEVER had a lunch break in work.I can be called out at any time and if I am eating,showering,using the toilet or anything else,that is too bad out the door we go.As for absenteeism,many PS workers are exposed to disease,filth and stress daily so it is hardly a surprise if they get sick.When the winter vomiting bug hits a hospital the staff must go in to work anyway putting themselves and their family at risk.Try working in the Joy for a few months with criminals slopping out,or working in an A&E dept or being a Garda being verbally and physically attacked and having your sleep pattern being screwed up and see how your health is then!

Silentcorner

repsol wrote: »

I am highlighting the fact that a lot of PS workers are deserving of their package of benefits.There are many pen pushers in the HSE etc who deserve the chop.Most HSE staff provide valuable skilled work.The security of tenure and pension is a 2 way street as it prevents PS workers with skills being tempted away.Private sector workers enjoy a lot of perks also.How many private workers enjoy company cars,company credit cards,pensions,bonuses,reduced VHI schemes,staff discounts,EVERY weekend,Xmas and Bank Holiday off to enjoy with their families,EVERY night in their own bed not working shifts.I am a firefighter and I have NEVER had a lunch break in work.I can be called out at any time and if I am eating,showering,using the toilet or anything else,that is too bad out the door we go.As for absenteeism,many PS workers are exposed to disease,filth and stress daily so it is hardly a surprise if they get sick.When the winter vomiting bug hits a hospital the staff must go in to work anyway putting themselves and their family at risk.Try working in the Joy for a few months with criminals slopping out,or working in an A&E dept or being a Garda being verbally and physically attacked and having your sleep pattern being screwed up and see how your health is then!

The irony being you'll find waitresses work those same hours, those lucky enough to still be in a job that is...

Company cars are taxed (benefit in kind)
Company Credit cards - I can assure you anyone in the Private sector with one has to account for and justify every single cent, can the PS say the same...do I need to mention FAS?
I do take your point about absenteeism, but again the 9-5 office based PS employees can have no excuse
Staff discounts - would largely refer to those in retail...let me tell you they deserve it...the last few years have seen that particular sector devastated

I do agree and have a lot of respect for certain sectors of PS employees, and it is my belief the wages for those should be last to be reduced, the work these people do is very difficult, I imagine more difficult that most of us can imagine

Shift work is not just restricted to those in the PS by the way, there are many who have had to take pay cuts/work longer shifts, or both, despite what they may have felt entitled to...

squod

Totally agree with your opening statements repsol. Many low paid workers, private sector workers, haven't time to take a P.

repsol

Silentcorner wrote: »

The irony being you'll find waitresses work those same hours, those lucky enough to still be in a job that is...

Company cars are taxed (benefit in kind)
Company Credit cards - I can assure you anyone in the Private sector with one has to account for and justify every single cent, can the PS say the same...do I need to mention FAS?
I do take your point about absenteeism, but again the 9-5 office based PS employees can have no excuse
Staff discounts - would largely refer to those in retail...let me tell you they deserve it...the last few years have seen that particular sector devastated

I do agree and have a lot of respect for certain sectors of PS employees, and it is my belief the wages for those should be last to be reduced, the work these people do is very difficult, I imagine more difficult that most of us can imagine

Shift work is not just restricted to those in the PS by the way, there are many who have had to take pay cuts/work longer shifts, or both, despite what they may have felt entitled to...

What annoys me is the PS is too broad a term.People should be more specific when they look for a cut in numbers or slashing wages and pension.People suggest cutting the PS by a few thousand yet if the Govt said they were getting rid of 2000 Gardai and 2000 teachers there would be uproar from the same people.

Wicklowandy

Two of my friends are on dublin fire and rescue, they are highly skilled and are fortunate to love what they do. They work shifts (as required in many jobs) with good time between shifts (not available in all jobs)

They do a difficult and challenging job and are appropriately rewarded for it.

We shouldnt be adopting a race to the bottom with wage cuts being the norm whether in the public or private sectors. We should be aspiring to provide quality employment and give people a living wage wherever they work.

The Dagda

woodoo wrote: »

I wish they would take the semi states like the ESB out of the public figure. I would like to know what the REAL public sector average is.

Who are you referring to when you say "they"?

johnty56

It seems that most people are in agreement that numbers in the Public sector have to be cut.. and that there is deadweight there, ie, there are layers of management in the HSE for example that are simply not needed and are in actual fact probably counter-productive and possibly damaging to the overall provision of a safe and effective service. I'm sure this is replicated through out the public sector.
The big problem as I see it is that Union bosses are shielding these people from any form of scrutiny or potential pay cuts along with there hard working beneficial members.

repsol

johnty56 wrote: »

It seems that most people are in agreement that numbers in the Public sector have to be cut.. and that there is deadweight there, ie, there are layers of management in the HSE for example that are simply not needed and are in actual fact probably counter-productive and possibly damaging to the overall provision of a safe and effective service. I'm sure this is replicated through out the public sector.
The big problem as I see it is that Union bosses are shielding these people from any form of scrutiny or potential pay cuts along with there hard working beneficial members.

The problem you describe arises from the fact that the same unions represent both sets of workers so there is a conflict of interest.Its like getting a divorce and one solicitor representing you and your spouse.:mad:

johnty56

I agree... i think that over the years the unions have become something other than what they were intended as. The very idea that a union leader should earn a 5 figure salary, plus perks etc, would have made pioneers in the field turn in their graves.

Cookie_Monster

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Keep hearing on the headlines the CIE union spokesman saying bus drivers are on or just over the average industrial wage.

why they throw this out is beyond me, they are openly stating they are well paid for what is a reasonably low skill job. Anyone can get a licence and PSV cert relatively quickly, cheaply and easily and there are no barriers to entry. To drive a bus and be on the AIW is good going IMO.

Gumbo

The Dagda wrote: »

Who are you referring to when you say "they"?

I presume the people who compile the reports maybe? CSO.

Celticfire

Silentcorner wrote: »

Are you suggesting all public sector employees should be paid more than those in the private sector...

Where did he say that

There are over 100,000 employees in the HSE, how many of them are nurses?

How many are Doctors, Paramedics, Radiographers,Psychologists,Lab Technicians,etc etc ? There's more to a health service than Nurses and Admin staff.

You are also neglecting to mention the security of tenure which those private sector employees do not have...and of course the guaranteed pensions...not to mention the more lax approach to absenteeism...or the holiday entitlements..

What's wrong with having a secure job? I applied and went through stiff competition to get my job. You say it like it's a dirty phrase. Did you ever even apply for a Public Sector job or were you too busy riding The Celtic Tiger.

Nobody is entitled to anything, that is a poisonous mentality...

You're entitled to stand up for yourself.

Silentcorner wrote: »

The irony being you'll find waitresses work those same hours, those lucky enough to still be in a job that is...

Ah the old lucky to have a job routine

Company cars are taxed (benefit in kind)
Company Credit cards - I can assure you anyone in the Private sector with one has to account for and justify every single cent,

Can you really? It's quite simple to make up bogus mileage, flights, invoices etc. It's actually unbelievably simple for a private company to do.

I do take your point about absenteeism, but again the 9-5 office based PS employees can have no excuse

Do you have stats to compare office workers in Public/Private absenteeism?

Shift work is not just restricted to those in the PS by the way, there are many who have had to take pay cuts/work longer shifts, or both, despite what they may have felt entitled to...

Show me a reputable company that has shift workers that do not get remunerated for working shifts.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why they throw this out is beyond me, they are openly stating they are well paid for what is a reasonably low skill job. Anyone can get a licence and PSV cert relatively quickly, cheaply and easily and there are no barriers to entry. To drive a bus and be on the AIW is good going IMO.

What sort of low skill job would you compare them to and could you also give me an example of a job you would consider worth the average AIW and a job that would be worth a more than the AIW. I'm not looking for a managerial role.

Farmer Pudsey

CIE group of companies, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus have an issue they are a so called comercial semi-state body. Because there fares are going up faster than inflation they are losing customers. This has lead to them losing more money. In the heady bygone day this could be swept under the carpet by raising the subvention this day is gone because the money has to come from somewhere else.

The Guards it seem have to reduce numbers by 1500 before year's end on top of over 1000 in the last 12 months. Is the penny droping with the government we cannot afford the cost of the public service we have. All this talk about public servants and Croke Park saving money is hogwash. The reality is that none of the savings were real. Are we coming to the endgame where numbers will have to be reduced substancially unless we get pay cut's.

Has the government relised that tax reciepts are reaching there maximun and cuts have been limited by CP and Headling Social welfare rates protection.

A family unit made up of two public servants may see no problem paying car tax and household charge of 1K+/year and find no problem with childcare but for a lot of ordinary workers if there CB is taxed next year on top of that it will be time to emigrate or leave the job.

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

A family unit made up of two public servants may see no problem paying car tax and household charge of 1K+/year and find no problem with childcare but for a lot of ordinary workers if there CB is taxed next year on top of that it will be time to emigrate or leave the job.

A family unit with even one PS employee will/is finding it hard to pay these costs too.

Silentcorner

Celticfire wrote: »

Where did he say that

In his post...the poster was responding to another post which simply stated there was quite a difference between PS and Private Sector average wages in which he stated "quite rightly so"...



How many are Doctors, Paramedics, Radiographers,Psychologists,Lab Technicians,etc etc ? There's more to a health service than Nurses and Admin staff.

The poster specifically mentioned the case of nurses, so did I


What's wrong with having a secure job? I applied and went through stiff competition to get my job. You say it like it's a dirty phrase. Did you ever even apply for a Public Sector job or were you too busy riding The Celtic Tiger.

Absolutely nothing, but it does have a value, where did I allude to it being in any way "dirty"?



You're entitled to stand up for yourself.

Standing up for yourself, and being entitled to something are two different mentalities



Ah the old lucky to have a job routine

Spoken like someone who has no idea what that value actually is...



Can you really? It's quite simple to make up bogus mileage, flights, invoices etc. It's actually unbelievably simple for a private company to do.

Which would involve immediate sacking if discovered...




Do you have stats to compare office workers in Public/Private absenteeism?

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_Economy/article_1022988_printer.shtml




Show me a reputable company that has shift workers that do not get remunerated for working shifts.

I know of a number companies, but these are small firms, it would not be appropriate to discuss in a public forum, I don't know anybody in the private sector who is not working for longer for less money.

Celticfire

Silentcorner wrote: »

In his post...the poster was responding to another post which simply stated there was quite a difference between PS and Private Sector average wages in which he stated "quite rightly so"...


The poster specifically mentioned the case of nurses, so did I

Respol wrote:

Yes there is and rightly so.Do you think a nurse who has a degree should earn what a waitress earns?Do you think a fireman,Garda or prison officer who has to regularly risk their neck and work weekends,Xmas,Bank Holidays and nights should be paid the same as a forklift driver or a factory worker?

No he asked two questions that you didn't answer.

Absolutely nothing, but it does have a value, where did I allude to it being in any way "dirty"?

Then why bring it up? The only reason to bring it into an argument is because you somehow feel that it's some sort of a stick to use.

Standing up for yourself, and being entitled to something are two different mentalities

I am entitled to the same employment rights as every other worker in the country.

Spoken like someone who has no idea what that value actually is...

It's my paycheque.

Which would involve immediate sacking if discovered...

Unless it's the directors of the company.......

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_Economy/article_1022988_printer.shtml

This "survey" is based on 2009 data....it's now 2013
How much do you think having one person out for a year sick (cancer or other serious illness) in an office of ten would skew the data? Would that person be treated differently in Public service in comparison to being employed by private sector?

I know of a number companies, but these are small firms, it would not be appropriate to discuss in a public forum, I don't know anybody in the private sector who is not working for longer for less money.

Are you saying you know companies that operate 24hrs a day and don' pay shift workers extra or that you know companies that expect more work for less pay?

Silentcorner

Celticfire wrote: »

No he asked two questions that you didn't answer.

The discussion was about average industrial pay, there are going to be pay scales on either side of this average, comparing nurses with waitresses is therefore unnecessary




Then why bring it up? The only reason to bring it into an argument is because you somehow feel that it's some sort of a stick to use.

Because it has a value that I believe should be considered when deciding renumeration




I am entitled to the same employment rights as every other worker in the country.

Unfortunately that doesn't apply to a lot of private sector employees




It's my paycheque.

Classy





Unless it's the directors of the company.......

So you agree that it is different for all other private sector employees, of course directors face consequences for their actions also





This "survey" is based on 2009 data....it's now 2013
How much do you think having one person out for a year sick (cancer or other serious illness) in an office of ten would skew the data? Would that person be treated differently in Public service in comparison to being employed by private sector?

I would imagine yes, there are companies in the private sector who are barely making ends meet, if an employee goes out sick (therefore costing a company €30-40k) then that could be enough to put that company under, losing all ten jobs.




Are you saying you know companies that operate 24hrs a day and don' pay shift workers extra or that you know companies that expect more work for less pay?

I know both types of companies

Celticfire

Silentcorner wrote: »

The discussion was about average industrial pay, there are going to be pay scales on either side of this average, comparing nurses with waitresses is therefore unnecessary

As is comparing average Public service pay to average Private sector pay

Because it has a value that I believe should be considered when deciding renumeration

That's been done already via benchmarking body for Public sector workers.

Unfortunately that doesn't apply to a lot of private sector employees

Yes it does. If workers don't want to use those laws for what ever reason that's their business.

.

Classy

It's a quantifiable value of my labour.

So you agree that it is different for all other private sector employees, of course directors face consequences for their actions also

No it's not different.. fraud is fraud at any level. It's very easy to hide money from revenue.... until audited.

I would imagine yes, there are companies in the private sector who are barely making ends meet, if an employee goes out sick (therefore costing a company €30-40k) then that could be enough to put that company under, losing all ten jobs.

I agree. Very difficult for a company to carry someone like that.

I know both types of companies

And I know companies that are the exact opposite.


Anyhow... back on topic.

I find it great when peoples jobs are being discussed on Boards ,everyone seems to know how much others should be paid, be it Teachers, Nurses, Garda or Bus Drivers .

sarumite

Celticfire wrote: »

I find it great when peoples jobs are being discussed on Boards ,everyone seems to know how much others should be paid, be it Teachers, Nurses, Garda or Bus Drivers .

Apparently so did teachers, Nurses etc when they were demanding benchmarking....of course now such talk is heresy.

Celticfire

sarumite wrote: »

Apparently so did teachers, Nurses etc when they were demanding benchmarking....of course now such talk is heresy.

HUH?? Is that just so you can mention benchmarking? Don't forget Croke Park while you're at it.

12gauge dave

antoobrien wrote: »

Nothing makey-upey about any of them. The average "industrial wage" is the average private sector gross wage - which can be gotten from the Source Earnings & Labour costs survey.

The average wage is the average gross wage of all employees.

Here's some figures to put some flesh on the topic.

Average gross wages as of Q3 2012
Category| €/w
Overall average | 694.96
Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51
Average Transport (both) | 721.23
< 50 employees | 547.19
50-250 employees | 622.02
> 250 employees | 823.98


Source: Earnings & Labour costs Q3 Preliminary estimates[/





And public sector are always complaining for what reason again?

ResearchWill

12gauge dave wrote: »

antoobrien wrote: »

Nothing makey-upey about any of them. The average "industrial wage" is the average private sector gross wage - which can be gotten from the Source Earnings & Labour costs survey.

The average wage is the average gross wage of all employees.

Here's some figures to put some flesh on the topic.

Average gross wages as of Q3 2012
Category| €/w
Overall average | 694.96
Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51
Average Transport (both) | 721.23
< 50 employees | 547.19
50-250 employees | 622.02
> 250 employees | 823.98


Source: Earnings & Labour costs Q3 Preliminary estimates[/

And private sector are always complaining why exactly?

Maybe because of the following,

Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51

Add to that difference security, sick pay (upto a year), pension, maybe that can explain the complaining.

12gauge dave

ResearchWill wrote: »

12gauge dave wrote: »

Maybe because of the following,

Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51

Add to that difference security, sick pay (upto a year), pension, maybe that can explain the complaining.

Sorry i made a typing error i meant to say public sector not private i have edited it now. Epic fail!ha

ardmacha

There is an obvious correlation between the wages and size of the employer. Probably the public sector is below the trend line for employers with > 100,000 employees.

goz83

Celticfire wrote: »

Show me a reputable company that has shift workers that do not get remunerated for working shifts.

.

Almost every hotel in Ireland.

Wicklowandy

you qualified as a teacher in 2009 and found a permanant job. Your younger sibling qualified in 2011, and in the unlikely event of them finding a position, they'll be on less start money and that'll continue for the rest of their working lives.

Theres no union if its members will allow new entrants to have different working conditions. It has to be the same for all.

Wedges have been driven between working people whatever sector you're in, but if existing employees can accept less working conditions for colleagues going forward, the day of the union, and any public solidarity are gone.