Average Industrial Wage

Wicklowandy

Dont think the world will be a great place if everyone (except you;)) works for €8.65 an hour (+shift!) and dont believe that a job isn't worthy of its renumeration until you've done it.

coolshannagh28

Staff in CIE are very well remunerated for good reason . In the mid 70s particularly in Dublin Bus they had a very militant union made up of ex UK, transport authority, car plant and large factory shop stewards who had emmigrated in the early 50s and had saved enough to return by the early 70s. They fought a vicious but entirely justified strike campaign at this time to sustain better pay and conditions and in doing so broke the back of the government which as with the ESB has made a point of overpaying them ever since.
Benchmarking exaggerated this with the nett result that the company is losing huge amounts of money while providing a poor enough service.
It will be interesting to see if Varadkar will use this as an opportunity to curb the unions in CIE and lay down a marker for the other PS unions or roll over as I would expect .

carpejugulum

ardmacha wrote: »

There is an obvious correlation between the wages and size of the employer. Probably the public sector is below the trend line for employers with > 100,000 employees.

There are no such employers in Ireland.

Farmer Pudsey

ResearchWill wrote: »

12gauge dave wrote: »

Maybe because of the following,

Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51

Add to that difference security, sick pay (upto a year), pension, maybe that can explain the complaining.

Lads, lads, lads do you not know you cannot use averages it upset public service workers. You have to use medians or compare like sized employers, or compare with companies with like number of employees.

You have them on soon complaining you cannot use raw data like that. Even the CSO ( are they a public service body:rolleyes:) do not use these figures they massuage them a little first.

What do you compare a Guard or PP in the health service to. A third level lecturer has no comparrison in the private sector, the same with an ESB worker and only Bord na Mona cuts turf.

It is striking obvious that there is no comparable job in the private sector the same as a CIE Bus driver

sarumite

Celticfire wrote: »

HUH?? Is that just so you can mention benchmarking? Don't forget Croke Park while you're at it.

Not sure of your confusion. I am happy to mention croke park also if that would make you feel better.

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

There is an obvious correlation between the wages and size of the employer. Probably the public sector is below the trend line for employers with > 100,000 employees.

Of course, because large employers like Tesco pay high wages and small employers like some software companie pay very little :rolleyes:

cosbloodymick

I always find it unbelievable that workers vie with each other to prove that their job is worse than somebody elses, and when everyones job is as badly paid as their own then and only then will they be satisfied. And all the while employers are laughing at the workers engaging in this race to the bottom where there will be an equality of poverty for all.

woodoo

ResearchWill wrote: »

12gauge dave wrote: »

Maybe because of the following,

Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51

Add to that difference security, sick pay (upto a year), pension, maybe that can explain the complaining.

The public sector wage includes the semi states. Makes the comparison null and void as far as i'm concerned. Comparisons should be public, private and semi state.

Wicklowandy

cosbloodymick wrote: »

I always find it unbelievable that workers vie with each other to prove that their job is worse than somebody elses, and when everyones job is as badly paid as their own then and only then will they be satisfied. And all the while employers are laughing at the workers engaging in this race to the bottom where there will be an equality of poverty for all.

Partly agree, but face off between sectors is encouraged by government, not wholely employers.

Result? Raised public feeling leading to easier croke park successor talks (axes will fly) and employers can reap the benefit of cheaper labour.

I work and have always worked in the private sector, but can see that when the unions accepted lesser conditions for new entrants to the public sector, the notion of solidarity died.

Has anyone compared the rates of a train driver / bus eireann driver / luas driver / dublin bus driver / private bus driver. I know which is the most responsible and difficult job. And its the lowest paid.

We need to aspire to an economy which provides living wages to workers, whatever their sector.

Pottler

Maybe a more realistic question is "what does the average bus driver in The EU earn"? -that's going to be the benchmark of reality in the future, not what rates are paid here in Eutopian Ireland where our fair taoiseach earns a salary that Britains prime minister would be happy on.

I was in Spain a few weeks back, spoke to a lot of workers, and €1000 a month take home was considered to be a "normal" wage for a worker. We've a bit of adjusting to do yet lads.:)

Farmer Pudsey

Pottler wrote: »

Maybe a more realistic question is "what does the average bus driver in The EU earn"? -that's going to be the benchmark of reality in the future, not what rates are paid here in Eutopian Ireland where our fair taoiseach earns a salary that Britains prime minister would be happy on.

I was in Spain a few weeks back, spoke to a lot of workers, and €1000 a month take home was considered to be a "normal" wage for a worker. We've a bit of adjusting to do yet lads.:)

Spanish wages would not compare to Irelands. There productivity is much lower. Also there is the requirement of what you need to live on. In spain the average person will not require the same level of housing as in Ireland, you will not need heating for most of the year and your personnell energy requirment(food) will be less.

As a lower level of acitivity is required to make a living a car is not a necessity and you do not require a plane to go for a sunshine holiday it is all relative.

I could quite happily live in Spain or Italy on 50-60% of what I live in Ireland or Britian on

Pottler

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Spanish wages would not compare to Irelands. There productivity is much lower. Also there is the requirement of what you need to live on. In spain the average person will not require the same level of housing as in Ireland, you will not need heating for most of the year and your personnell energy requirment(food) will be less.

As a lower level of acitivity is required to make a living a car is not a necessity and you do not require a plane to go for a sunshine holiday it is all relative.

I could quite happily live in Spain or Italy on 50-60% of what I live in Ireland or Britian on

It won't be in years to come. I was there on a productivity project btw and was pleasantly surprised, if I was an IDA person, I'd be a bit worried. Our expectations and requirements are unrealistic on an International basis and will need to adjust, ie, costs will have to fall, and they inevitably will. House prices will fall, much, much further, rents will drop to match and living costs will diminish - INEVITABLY. Wages will fall to match/lead this process. To believe otherwise is unrealistic and resistance is more than futile. To put it bluntly.:) The CIE etc are not immune. By any measure. There are also about 15billion reasons that make this compelling in the PS.

spikethedog

antoobrien wrote: »

Nothing makey-upey about any of them. The average "industrial wage" is the average private sector gross wage - which can be gotten from the Source Earnings & Labour costs survey.

The average wage is the average gross wage of all employees.

Here's some figures to put some flesh on the topic.

Average gross wages as of Q3 2012
Category| €/w
Overall average | 694.96
Average private sector | 617.94
Average Public public | 925.51
Average Transport (both) | 721.23
< 50 employees | 547.19
50-250 employees | 622.02
> 250 employees | 823.98


Source: Earnings & Labour costs Q3 Preliminary estimates

The gravy train is still alive and well in Ireland.
No wonder there's a massive deficit.

dvpower

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Keep hearing on the headlines the CIE union spokesman saying bus drivers are on or just over the average industrial wage.

In my mind's eye, a bus driver is what I see when I imagine an 'average industrial' worker.

Was the union official arguing for a modest pay cut?

Bits_n_Bobs

To return to my own OP....

My opinion now is that the union spokesman purposefully used an ambiguous term (average industrial wage), which is not now utilised by the CSO and is therefore open to interpretation. I don't know what the average wage of a CIE bus driver is but, I would hazard a guess that it's high enough for a presumably skilled union spokesman to avoid specifically mentioning while making an argument for striking.

I'm sadly not disappointed or surprised at the lack of any journalist calling him out on it (nor am I saying that they routinely question the more blatant spinning by private sector spokespeople either).

Icepick

dvpower wrote: »

In my mind's eye, a bus driver is what I see when I imagine an 'average industrial' worker.

Average is misleading. The vast majority of people earn below an average wage because it's skewed by very high wages on one end and minimum wage on the other.
Regardless, their employer is bust so to protest instead of thanking the public that they did not lose their jobs is outrageous.

Pottler

Icepick wrote: »

Average is misleading. The vast majority of people earn below an average wage because it's skewed by very high wages on one end and minimum wage on the other.
Regardless, their employer is bust so to protest instead of thanking the public that they did not lose their jobs is outrageous.

There's reality there, and it can only be ignored for so long..

Reekwind

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

My opinion now is that the union spokesman purposefully used an ambiguous term (average industrial wage), which is not now utilised by the CSO and is therefore open to interpretation. I don't know what the average wage of a CIE bus driver is but, I would hazard a guess that it's high enough for a presumably skilled union spokesman to avoid specifically mentioning while making an argument for striking

Yes, it's all a nefarious plot by the unions, a dastardly ploy by organised labour. What other possible explanation could there be for making a valid comparison using a common economic term?

And it is valid. What other sector are you going to going to compare CIE employees to? There's no point looking at Transportation given that the vast majority of employees in this category in the state are surely with CIE. Retail? Hospitality? Finance?

antoobrien wrote:

The average "industrial wage" is the average private sector gross wage

Except that it's not:

"The average industrial wage is generally defined as the hourly or weekly wage rate of industrial workers in the industrial sector... The industrial sector included manufacturing industries; mining and quarrying; and the electricity, gas and water supply sector.

Industrial workers were defined as operatives, maintenance workers, storekeepers, packers, cleaners, basic supervisory staff and apprentices. Managerial, professional, technical and clerical staff were not included in the calculation of the average industrial wage."

The CSO published Earnings and Labour Costs survey, which you referenced, contains a sector breakdown of earnings and a rough average industrial wage can still be calculated from this

repsol

Pottler wrote: »

There's reality there, and it can only be ignored for so long..

Just because CIE are not able to balance their books doesn't mean the staff have to take up the slack.Why not let the customers pay more as they are the ones getting the subsidized travel?

Farmer Pudsey

repsol wrote: »

Just because CIE are not able to balance their books doesn't mean the staff have to take up the slack.Why not let the customers pay more as they are the ones getting the subsidized travel?

The problem repsol is the law of dimishing returns. First of all on intercity and national routes CIE has competition and are losing customers to their compeditors, Rail travel is way too expensive it is cheaper to use your own car rather than take a train between cities and that includes parking.

So customers are not going to pay more and why should they.

Pottler

repsol wrote: »

Just because CIE are not able to balance their books doesn't mean the staff have to take up the slack.Why not let the customers pay more as they are the ones getting the subsidized travel?

Yeah, it does, actually.:) It's called reality. No mun, no fun.

repsol

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The problem repsol is the law of dimishing returns. First of all on intercity and national routes CIE has competition and are losing customers to their compeditors, Rail travel is way too expensive it is cheaper to use your own car rather than take a train between cities and that includes parking.

So customers are not going to pay more and why should they.

A lot of public transport users have no option to switch to and are not paying their whack.Using "your own car" is not an option for a lot of people who do not own a car.

Reekwind

Pottler wrote: »

Yeah, it does, actually.:) It's called reality. No mun, no fun.

It would if CIE was a privately run company (because directors don't like being subject to pay cuts) that was run for profit. It's not and never will be. Many of CIE's, and particularly Bus Eirann's routes, are simply unprofitable and make no economic sense. They are provided however as a service to local communities and serve as an enabling factor in regional economies

Farmer Pudsey

repsol wrote: »

A lot of public transport users have no option to switch to and are not paying their whack.Using "your own car" is not an option for a lot of people who do not own a car.

But alot of other uses have choices and if you increase prices they will use other bus companies or other transpot choices.

Example inter city rail is a virtual dead duck as the price of a day or week return is absurd most fares are in the 40-50 euro mark. So if two people are travelling it a no brainer to take the car. My brothers daughter is going to college in Tralee from limerick bus fare is in the region of 25 euro's return she get a lift off another student and share the cost of the fuel. Dublin to other city destination in Ireland is around 10 each way and if CIE put them up they will lose customers. This is the law of diminishing returns when a product is overpriced people will look at other options.

The reality is that wages and overhead's in CIE are crazy I do not believe in a race to the bottom but neither can low paid private sector workers affor to subsdise well paid CIE drivers by extra taxes or incresed fares. If routes are unenomical then close them however they recieve a subsvention to run these routes. Maybe these routes should be put out to tender and maybe private bus companies may be able to do them at less of a loss or maybe even at a profit. However the quid quo pro would be that CIE would have to let drivers go and sell unused buses.

antoobrien

Reekwind wrote: »

Many of CIE's, and particularly Bus Eirann's routes, are simply unprofitable and make no economic sense. They are provided however as a service to local communities and serve as an enabling factor in regional economies

Nice contradiction - they make no economic sense but they are providing for regional economies - so they do make economic sense (unless one thinks that the regions should not be provided for).

The cost of providing PSO services in 2011 was €38m - less than the PSO grant (whcih was overpaid due to previous underpayment). The total cost of operations is €329.4m so the PSO cost is about 11.5% of the total cost of running BE.

Compared with the remuneration cost (including pensions) was €130.656m for 2011 full time & 502 part time (school bus) drivers that's a pittance.

Souce: BE annual report 2011

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

But alot of other uses have choices and if you increase prices they will use other bus companies or other transpot choices.

Example inter city rail is a virtual dead duck as the price of a day or week return is absurd most fares are in the 40-50 euro mark. So if two people are travelling it a no brainer to take the car. My brothers daughter is going to college in Tralee from limerick bus fare is in the region of 25 euro's return she get a lift off another student and share the cost of the fuel. Dublin to other city destination in Ireland is around 10 each way and if CIE put them up they will lose customers. This is the law of diminishing returns when a product is overpriced people will look at other options.

The reality is that wages and overhead's in CIE are crazy I do not believe in a race to the bottom but neither can low paid private sector workers affor to subsdise well paid CIE drivers by extra taxes or incresed fares. If routes are unenomical then close them however they recieve a subsvention to run these routes. Maybe these routes should be put out to tender and maybe private bus companies may be able to do them at less of a loss or maybe even at a profit. However the quid quo pro would be that CIE would have to let drivers go and sell unused buses.

I wonder how the wages and overheads in the private bus companies compare to CIE? Is is the case that in these companies the wages are lower but the profit margin makes up the difference. I use a private bus company to commute to Dublin which has €12 day return rate for a 35 mile journey (It increased from €10 during 2012 - a handy 20% increase). Its worth my while if travelling alone but if my other half travels also, the €24 daily return is prohibitive and makes the car much more economic - car costs about €16 return. So maybe lets privitise the bus routes, reduce pay rates and provide for a hansome profit margin for investors instead. Customer will probably still end up pay the same anyway.

johnnyskeleton

dvpower wrote: »

In my mind's eye, a bus driver is what I see when I imagine an 'average industrial' worker.

Was the union official arguing for a modest pay cut?

I wouldn't think of a bus driver as average. I would think of a bus driver as being on a fairly low or minimum wage. There are thousands of people who are unemployed who could do the job for less, so paying someone 35k+ when someone else could do it for 20k is ridiculous. If the government ran McDonald's they would probably pay people 35k to flip burgers.

This all came from a time when they had too much money and ff wanted to buy votes from ps employees.

IMO the way to do it is to give cie just enough of a budget to get by and let management in cie cut the wages, rather than making it a political think of government vs 400k public workers.

creedp

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

IMO the way to do it is to give cie just enough of a budget to get by and let management in cie cut the wages, rather than making it a political think of government vs 400k public workers.

My understanding is that the Govt can't cut the wages of the semi-state workers as they are treated as autonomous organisations with their management being responsible for pay policy. This is why as a sector they have not been exposed to national pay cuts which applied to the public sector in general. If it was justifiable for the unions to accept pay cuts in the public sector because State is broke, then wonder why the unions won't accept similiar adjustments in the semi-state sector when the company is in a similar state?

johnnyskeleton

creedp wrote: »

My understanding is that the Govt can't cut the wages of the semi-state workers as they are treated as autonomous organisations with their management being responsible for pay policy. This is why as a sector they have not been exposed to national pay cuts which applied to the public sector in general. If it was justifiable for the unions to accept pay cuts in the public sector because State is broke, then wonder why the unions won't accept similiar adjustments in the semi-state sector when the company is in a similar state?

All the more reason to stop subventions and let private bus operators compete against them.

antoobrien

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

All the more reason to stop subventions and let private bus operators compete against them.

This can also be achieved by linking the subvention to the route (or a group of routes) and tendering these - like the tendering of the Direct routes between Gawlay & Dublin (GoBus is a partial PSO route).

Gumbo

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

All the more reason to stop subventions and let private bus operators compete against them.

Yeah sure, the waste collection venture into the private sector is working a treat isint it.......

spank_inferno

kceire wrote: »

Yeah sure, the waste collection venture into the private sector is working a treat isint it.......

(I don't mean to go off topic)

However, it is TBF.

The market is pretty cut-throat at the moment.
Despite high levies from local authorities & a raft of red-tape, waste service providers are pricing very competitively.

We now have segregated waste (which we didnt have when my local authority was in charge of collection) and recycling recovery rates have soared.

The market worked.

It can too for public transport.

Farmer Pudsey

kceire wrote: »

Yeah sure, the waste collection venture into the private sector is working a treat isint it.......

spank_inferno wrote: »

(I don't mean to go off topic)

However, it is TBF.

The market is pretty cut-throat at the moment.
Despite high levies from local authorities & a raft of red-tape, waste service providers are pricing very competitively.

We now have segregated waste (which we didnt have when my local authority was in charge of collection) and recycling recovery rates have soared.

The market worked.

It can too for public transport.

And if you look at it you will see why on Council truck was a driver and two bin men on private operator is one driver and one bin man ( this is arural area) in towns and villages or when a lot of bins, driver hops out and gives a hand ( would never happen with council).

You would wonder would recycling be as far forward if council still operated it. At first after council left the bin collection new operator ( who got the council franchise ) was very expensive now competition(and value of recyclables) has driven prices down by about 40% over last 2-3 years.
It hard to believe that we have in a rural area the choice of three operators.

Of course the Dublin area was sheltered from this for years and it is hard to believe that the councils in Dublin managed to run the service at a loss.

OMD

kceire wrote: »

Yeah sure, the waste collection venture into the private sector is working a treat isint it.......

Absolutely. It is working. Not perfect yet but a hell if a lot better than when part of public sector.

Manach

I'd have a measure of sympathy for Bus drivers as they do at times need to deal with anti-social elements in their jobs. In general however, agencies and semi-state have mushroomed beyond the resources of the State to support. Based on academic sources, there are at least 450+ of such. The exact count is difficult to say based on their nebulous terms of their creation. This stems from both the large volume of directives from the EU and the nature of the modern state itself to regulate and control social activities. There are some agencies that are needed and even vital (eg Companies Regulator), but having 450+ of them in a small country is un-affordable.

Gumbo

spank_inferno wrote: »

(I don't mean to go off topic)

However, it is TBF.

The market is pretty cut-throat at the moment.
Despite high levies from local authorities & a raft of red-tape, waste service providers are pricing very competitively.

We now have segregated waste (which we didnt have when my local authority was in charge of collection) and recycling recovery rates have soared.

The market worked.

It can too for public transport.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

And if you look at it you will see why on Council truck was a driver and two bin men on private operator is one driver and one bin man ( this is arural area) in towns and villages or when a lot of bins, driver hops out and gives a hand ( would never happen with council).

You would wonder would recycling be as far forward if council still operated it. At first after council left the bin collection new operator ( who got the council franchise ) was very expensive now competition(and value of recyclables) has driven prices down by about 40% over last 2-3 years.
It hard to believe that we have in a rural area the choice of three operators.

Of course the Dublin area was sheltered from this for years and it is hard to believe that the councils in Dublin managed to run the service at a loss.

OMD wrote: »

Absolutely. It is working. Not perfect yet but a hell if a lot better than when part of public sector.

You lot should experience it in Dublin. It's dreadful with constant no shows, bins half emptied and bins left 2 blocks away from your house. The Dublin forum is testament to how bad it is with rival companies actually burning out their rivals lorries.

Out my way we are serviced by a few different operators and I have never seen one driver and one pick up person, minimum is 2 lads at the back plus one driver.

antoobrien

kceire wrote: »

You lot should experience it in Dublin. It's dreadful with constant no shows, bins half emptied and bins left 2 blocks away from your house. The Dublin forum is testament to how bad it is with rival companies actually burning out their rivals lorries.

Funny I haven't had any of these problems (D5) - they leave the bin 20 yards away that's a minor annoyance.

The only time I had a miss was under DCC collection.

OMD

kceire wrote: »

You lot should experience it in Dublin. It's dreadful with constant no shows, bins half emptied and bins left 2 blocks away from your house. The Dublin forum is testament to how bad it is with rival companies actually burning out their rivals lorries.

Out my way we are serviced by a few different operators and I have never seen one driver and one pick up person, minimum is 2 lads at the back plus one driver.

I am In Dublin

Icepick

repsol wrote: »

Just because CIE are not able to balance their books doesn't mean the staff have to take up the slack.

Wages have to be cut because staff costs are a significant part of their expenses and because they do not have to worry about a loss of competitiveness.

repsol wrote: »

Why not let the customers pay more as they are the ones getting the subsidized travel?

Because the company does not - or should not - exist for the sole benefit of its employees.

repsol

OMD wrote: »

Absolutely. It is working. Not perfect yet but a hell if a lot better than when part of public sector.

Yeah its great! A new competitor pops up doing cheap bins and someone burns 6 of his trucks. Nice to see lucrative work being dished out to such nice people.

Farmer Pudsey

repsol wrote: »

Yeah its great! A new competitor pops up doing cheap bins and someone burns 6 of his trucks. Nice to see lucrative work being dished out to such nice people.

CIE has not exactly been the nicest of compeditors over the years, I remember a few years ago in more than one city where they used to park the busses in bus bays to prevent compeditors from using them. If it taught for a moment that it could go back to it old days it would.

It was the same with Council Bin services they sold on the franchise they did not tender for a service. We have had compedition in rural area's now for 2-3 years despite the way the councils abandoned there customers and the same will happen in Dublin in 2-3 years time you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

frankosw

kceire wrote: »

Yeah sure, the waste collection venture into the private sector is working a treat isint it.......

Dont forget the corrupt NCT private company.

Farmer Pudsey

frankosw wrote: »

Dont forget the corrupt NCT private company.

The NCT is run by the one company I do not think that it is corrupt I do believe that it may have had a staff issue at one site maybe even two but I thaught it was only one. All in all not a bad record.

This is the type of posting that give public forums a bad name

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The NCT is run by the one company I do not think that it is corrupt I do believe that it may have had a staff issue at one site maybe even two but I thaught it was only one. All in all not a bad record.

This is the type of posting that give public forums a bad name

In fairness, its been known in Dublin for many years that you can get through the NCT for an extra few quid left out for the tester.

Seemed to be fairly widespread too.

Farmer Pudsey

kceire wrote: »

In fairness, its been known in Dublin for many years that you can get through the NCT for an extra few quid left out for the tester.

Seemed to be fairly widespread too.

Well then report to the Guards, the Dept Of Envoirment or to the company itself. There was an issues highlighted by RTE in its taxi investigation however I have not personnelly come accross it

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Well then report to the Guards, the Dept Of Envoirment or to the company itself. There was an issues highlighted by RTE in its taxi investigation however I have not personnelly come accross it

Dont need to report it. There was a fly on the wall show that exposed it.
Highlights the amount of fraud going on. I have personally came across it on about 6 occasions. Never needed it though.

antoobrien

kceire wrote: »

Dont need to report it. There was a fly on the wall show that exposed it.
Highlights the amount of fraud going on. I have personally came across it on about 6 occasions. Never needed it though.

I hope you reported it all 6 times to the relevant authorities.

Farmer Pudsey

kceire wrote: »

Dont need to report it. There was a fly on the wall show that exposed it.
Highlights the amount of fraud going on. I have personally came across it on about 6 occasions. Never needed it though.

Must be the company you keep I obivously keep better company.

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

In fairness, its been known in Dublin for many years that you can get through the NCT for an extra few quid left out for the tester.

Seemed to be fairly widespread too.

That hardly a problem specific to private companies. Every organisation will have corrupt officials. The recent exposure of Gardai writing off peoples speeding tickets is testament to that. What you describe wouldn't stop in a wholly stae owned organisation imo. Its a strawman put out by those who have a general problem with privatisation.

Gumbo

sarumite wrote: »

That hardly a problem specific to private companies. Every organisation will have corrupt officials. The recent exposure of Gardai writing off peoples speeding tickets is testament to that. What you describe wouldn't stop in a wholly stae owned organisation imo. Its a strawman put out by those who have a general problem with privatisation.

Totaly agree with you, theres always one bad apple that ruins it for the rest of the bunch.

Some things should/can be privatised, there are also some things that shouldnt be.