Are doctors allowed have relations (sexual/non-sexual) with their patients?

Gael23

I just really valued his advice and opinion and if I have an opportunity to still have that I would like to use it.
Obviously, as he's moved away its not practical for him to be my regular doctor and he won't have access to my files or anything like that. If I can do this, it won't be ear as often as I would have seen him before, which was every 3 months but more like once or twice a year

_Whimsical_

Gongoozler wrote: »

its either illegal or its not. And it's not.

It's really not as simple as that.
I could explain it to you but it's Saturday night and I can't be bothered. If you'd like to know more I suggest you read up on the legal and moral obligations of a fiduciary relationship as seen by the law.

There's also the fact that there's a well acknowledged psychological phenomonen called "transference" in relationships of professional care where a vulnerable patient will find someone who's kind to them and begin to believe that they're in love with their therapist/doctor. What's happening is they're misdirecting feelings they might have had for a parent or guardian to the therapist/doctor. It will feel like love to the patient however.
It might be very difficult for a doctor to determine genuine interest from a patient from transference. Picking up a relationship with someone experiencing transference would be seen as a failure of medical care,both morally and in terms of providing adequate professional help to them.

Maphisto

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

It's really not as simple as that.
I could explain it to you but it's Saturday night and I can't be bothered. If you'd like to know more I suggest you read up on the legal and moral obligations of a fiduciary relationship as seen by the law.

There's also the fact that there's a well acknowledged psychological phenomonen called "transference" in relationships of professional care where a vulnerable patient will find someone who's kind to them and begin to believe that they're in love with their therapist/doctor. What's happening is they're misdirecting feelings they might have had for a parent or guardian to the therapist/doctor. It will feel like love to the patient however.
It might be very difficult for a doctor to determine genuine interest from a patient from transference. Picking up a relationship with someone experiencing transference would be seen as a failure of medical care,both morally and in terms of providing adequate professional help to them.

Yeah, but so long as they're awake ....

Gongoozler

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

It's really not as simple as that.

I get ya, well based on what you've said. Thing is, like I say the guide is a guide. There are no rules regarding this. The rights and wrongs of it will be decided on a case by case basis. Obviously if there's evidence of taking advantage or diminished capacity etc it will be taken very seriously. But two consenting, fully aware adults can make a decision to be in a relationship, as happens all the time, without it meaning someone's taking advantage etc, and so why the part about relationships is part of the guide.

drkpower

medicine12345 wrote: »

You'd look well being brought up before the medical council and trying to defend having a sexual relationship with a patient. It is an abuse of position. It may not be illegal then but it certainly is wrong.

'Looking well' or otherwise is neither here nor there.

It may be an abuse of position but a sexual relationship between a doctor and patient is not, of itself, an abuse of position. Whether it is 'wrong' or not is a moral judgment and depends on the circumstances.

I'm guessing you are a medical student or leaving cert student with aspirations. At this stage you should be beginning to learn about nuance and shades of grey.

medicine12345

drkpower wrote: »

'Looking well' or otherwise is neither here nor there.

It may be an abuse of position but a sexual relationship between a doctor and patient is not, of itself, an abuse of position. Whether it is 'wrong' or not is a moral judgment and depends on the circumstances.

I'm guessing you are a medical student or leaving cert student with aspirations. At this stage you should be beginning to learn about nuance and shades of grey.

I am a medical student and there are no shades of grey in this circumstance. Don't patronise me. I don't know how you actually think it can ever be acceptable to begin a sexual relationship with a patient. I don't know if you are a doctor or what but if you are I think it is inappropriate for you to begin a sexual relationship with a patient who you are treating for whatever illness. So wrong and its actually disturbing if you can't see that.

drkpower

medicine12345 wrote: »

I am a medical student and there are no shades of grey in this circumstance. Don't patronise me. I don't know how you actually think it can ever be acceptable to begin a sexual relationship with a patient. I don't know if you are a doctor or what but if you are I think it is inappropriate for you to begin a sexual relationship with a patient who you are treating for whatever illness. So wrong and its actually disturbing if you can't see that.

You have gone from illegal; to something that would result in a doctor being struck off; to unethical; to wrong; and finally to inappropriate.

I certainly agree with the last stop on your journey (at least in the vast majority of cases).

medicine12345

drkpower wrote: »

You have gone from illegal; to something that would result in a doctor being struck off; to unethical; to wrong; and finally to inappropriate.

I certainly agree with the last stop on your journey (at least in the vast majority of cases).

The final 4 are all the same. I've never had to think about it as it will never be an issue for me. There are enough people in this country to have a sexual relationship with without involving people who come to you as a patient needing medical attention.

drkpower

medicine12345 wrote: »

The final 4 are all the same. I've never had to think about it as it will never be an issue for me. There are enough people in this country to have a sexual relationship with without involving people who come to you as a patient needing medical attention.

You asked me not to patronise you but it is difficult when you are not making much of an effort to get fairly straightforward matters accurate.

You first said it was illegal; but thankfully you realised pretty quickly that you wre way off the mark.

Doing something unethical =\= getting struck off; the latter is extremely rare. The former, sadly, is quite a bit more common.

The ethical guideline is quite clear; a sexual relationship with a patient/ former patient is not, of itself, unethical; only using one's position in ðeveloping that relationship is unethical.

Wrong/inappropriate etc are moral judgements.

medicine12345

Stop playing games with words to avoid the main point. Obviously I know they dont all mean the same thing, I ment I think they all apply. Having a sexual relationship with a patient is wrong, unethical, inappropriate and Id say you could get struck off for it. As for being illegal obviously it isnt against the law and this country but ut is a big no no. You would be destroyed personally and profesionally and rightly so. I dont know if yiu are a doctor or not but if you are and you consider having sexual relationships with your patients that come into you think you're a bit sick tbh

Gael23

medicine12345 wrote: »

I am a medical student and there are no shades of grey in this circumstance. Don't patronise me. I don't know how you actually think it can ever be acceptable to begin a sexual relationship with a patient. I don't know if you are a doctor or what but if you are I think it is inappropriate for you to begin a sexual relationship with a patient who you are treating for whatever illness. So wrong and its actually disturbing if you can't see that.

Being a medical student, you'll know what I mean about the doctor/patient relationship. Things were absolutely always professional between us but I made a really strong connection with him, as a professional. Its just hard to take that being broken so quickly.

Shane-KornSpace

"Doctor, I have pink eye."
"OK, go inside and take your pants off... "

[SCRUBS]

riclad

I Think its like the teacher , student relationship.
ITS unethical to have a relationship with a patient , they may be vunerable, or have a psychological problem.
a Doctor knows maybe more about you than anyone else.
Theres a power balance there .They go to you for medical treatment and medication.
IT reminds me of this american actress ,i read about ,
she was 16 ,her first boyfriend was 21.
could he not find a woman over 18 to go out with.

Can a doctor not find a woman who is not a patient ,to go out with.
IS there a great shortage of single people in ireland.
Doctors are generally on a good income, its a high status job.
IT should not be hard to meet people ,non patients if you want.

Gongoozler

medicine12345 wrote: »

having a sexual relationship with a patient is wrong, unethical, inappropriate and Id say you could get struck off for it.

I haven't done it myself, but why not see if you can find cases in Ireland where a doctor has been struck off by the medical council because he had a consenting adult relationship with a patient, and that patient had no mental health issues.

drkpower

riclad wrote: »

Theres a power balance there

Many have the (mis)perception that the doctor patient relationship necessarily involves a power inbalance. It often does, no doubt about it. But often it does not. For instance, is there a power inbalance in the relationship I have with my GP who I attend for the odd check up or other minor issue? Of course not. If I were to embark on a relationship with her, why would that be unethical? Is anyone using their position to develop that relationship?

drkpower

medicine12345 wrote: »

Stop playing games with words to avoid the main point. Obviously I know they dont all mean the same thing, I ment I think they all apply. Having a sexual relationship with a patient is wrong, unethical, inappropriate and Id say you could get struck off for it. As for being illegal obviously it isnt against the law and this country but ut is a big no no. You would be destroyed personally and profesionally and rightly so. I dont know if yiu are a doctor or not but if you are and you consider having sexual relationships with your patients that come into you think you're a bit sick tbh

What is your main point? It has shifted quite a bit so far?

Let's try and clarify where it is you stand. Are you saying that in every case, a relationship between a doctor and her patients or ex patients is:

A) unethical, and
should warrant being struck off?

Gael23

riclad wrote: »

a Doctor knows maybe more about you than anyone else.
Theres a power balance there .They go to you for medical treatment and medication.

This is what I see as the difficulty and I mentioned it last night. You sometimes tell a doctor things you might not tell anyone else but I don't think that means there is a power balance all the time.
I know for the last few years I never felt my doctor was superior to me. Part of that may be down to me trusting him so much but I always felt comfortable discussing anything and felt he really cared about me.

Gael23

Bit of progress on this.
I was in there today with one of the other Doctors who also owns the place.
I was just chatting to her and told her how I felt about him leaving and that.
The conversation went on and she is going to put us in touch with each other via email.
Im not fully sure this will work out because he firstly has to get my details form her and then the ball is in his court weather he does actually contact me or not.