Common Sense v Rules - Sinnotts

Dicky Pride

What is it with people that log onto boards and immediately get on their high horses...mitosis, do you act like this in real life? If you do then I'll be amazed if you have any friends.

stefan idiot jones

What a complete waste of a thread. You can quote and state all the Irish and E.U. laws and legislations until you are blue in the face. But if that doorman does not like the cut of your jib then it's game over for you that night. "The management have the right to refuse". There it is pure and simple. Sometimes it's policy, sometimes it's on a whim, maybe the doorman just didn't like the look of you or he was having a bad day but their word is final and argueing or debating with them is a waste of time. Why someone would go to nightclubs in the first place is beyond me, overpriced drinks, mostly horrendous music then get set upon by scumbags outside a kebab house at half two, when you can go out earlier to a better place with more choice have a drink and a laugh, hear eachother talking, watch some sport, have a game of pool, feed the jukebox etc., etc. Tucked up in bed at midnight with a bellyfull of beer and chips.
If doormen could even read this do you think they would lose any sleep ? They would just laugh.

Adyx

sparkling sea wrote: »

Ha haha pot and kettle come to mind by the way.

As you know, Ireland is a dualist state so law that is not domestic law must be incorporated into Irish law.

The European Communities Act 1972, provides that treaties of the European Union are part of Irish law, along with directly effective measures adopted under those treaties. It also provides that government ministers may adopt statutory instruments in order to implement European Union law and that as an exception to the general rule such statutory instruments have effect as if they were primary legislation. Once they become primary legislation they will supercede existing Irish law - it is EU law and the dualist nature of our state means it has standing that over rides existing Irish law as it is incorporated into Irish law.

Our government can also ratify international legislation but until they incorporate it into domestic law, we are are not bound by it and as you probably know, we don't uphold it either. Convention on Human Rights is always used as an example, we were one of the first countries to ratify it but we were one of the last to incorporate it or be bound be it.

The over 21's and pubs - these are public houses not private premises as some people think, they have to abide by all the elements of the ESA and the amendments of ILA 2003 and can be defeated if this is not the case. So say for example you have ID that proves your over 18 and your not drunk etc,etc, then a premises that is open to the public cannot legimate use a sign alone to stop you entering, this is discriminatory - refusal to allow yoy to enter must comply with all parts of both sections and subsections of both acts. Also if they are in breach their sign through their own actions (and they almost always are) the sign again is meaningless. Private members clubs are different.

I'll give you a better example tomorrow

Don't bother on my behalf. I'm not interested in examples or anecdotes. I simply wanted to know which EU law was being breached. By the way you're right, they can't just use a sign alone - they must also implement the policy in good faith i.e in a manner not designed to discriminate based on age. If the stories of Sinnots allowing in other under 21 whilst refusing the OP's friend then obviously they have not implemented the policy in good faith.

Look, I've never known a pub or club in Waterford to actually implement this in good faith. Without fail, every place I've worked with an over age policy has allowed in some under the age while refusing others. I'm not justifying it or saying I agree with it of course.

All I'm simply saying is that the basis for refusing people over 18 but under a set age is allowed under Irish law. Besides which, if a venue doesn't want your business, give it to someone who does - vote with your feet as they say.

dzilla

was it a good night?

sparkling sea

Adyx wrote: »

All I'm simply saying is that the basis for refusing people over 18 but under a set age is allowed under Irish law. Besides which, if a venue doesn't want your business, give it to someone who does - vote with your feet as they say.

It doesn't apply to any one act, it applies to all legislation both primary and secondary. It is a hard one to explain; Direct effect and supremacy ensure that EC law is incorporated uniformly into the legal order of dualist states. The doctrine of supremacy means that EC law takes precedence over national laws of Member States in the domestic legal system, so EU law (once incoporated) is superior to national laws and its the duty of national courts to enforce this supremacy when they conflict with national laws; this applies irrespective of the nature of the EC provision.

People can change things, they can stand up to this kind of discrimination and take a case. Discrimination of this nature is only allowed to happen because people do nothing when it happens to them. Change only happens when people make it happen.

sparkling sea

stefan idiot jones wrote: »

What a complete waste of a thread. You can quote and state all the Irish and E.U. laws and legislations until you are blue in the face. But if that doorman does not like the cut of your jib then it's game over for you that night. "The management have the right to refuse". There it is pure and simple. Sometimes it's policy, sometimes it's on a whim, maybe the doorman just didn't like the look of you or he was having a bad day but their word is final and argueing or debating with them is a waste of time. Why someone would go to nightclubs in the first place is beyond me, overpriced drinks, mostly horrendous music then get set upon by scumbags outside a kebab house at half two, when you can go out earlier to a better place with more choice have a drink and a laugh, hear eachother talking, watch some sport, have a game of pool, feed the jukebox etc., etc. Tucked up in bed at midnight with a bellyfull of beer and chips.
If doormen could even read this do you think they would lose any sleep ? They would just laugh.

It probably is a waste of time on the night but that doesn't mean you have to just let it go, if you can be bothered to follow it up, you may end up with the money for say a new car or the funds to go travelling or for whatever.

The doorman might win on the night but you can win in the end.

OP there is a free legal aid service operating every second Wednesday evening in St Brigids, Lower Yellow Road, - you just ring CIC for an appointment.

mitosis

Dicky Pride wrote: »

What is it with people that log onto boards and immediately get on their high horses...mitosis, do you act like this in real life? If you do then I'll be amazed if you have any friends.

Yeehar. Giddyup! :pac:

stefan idiot jones

sparkling sea wrote: »

It probably is a waste of time on the night but that doesn't mean you have to just let it go, if you can be bothered to follow it up, you may end up with the money for say a new car or the funds to go travelling or for whatever.

The doorman might win on the night but you can win in the end.

OP there is a free legal aid service operating every second Wednesday evening in St Brigids, Lower Yellow Road, - you just ring CIC for an appointment.

Do you really think that this 'incident' is a good use of free legal aid ? When legal aid was introduced to the republic in the sixties, do you really think they had this type of pitiful arguement in mind ? And could he really go travelling on the settlement ? FFS.

sparkling sea

stefan idiot jones wrote: »

Do you really think that this 'incident' is a good use of free legal aid ? When legal aid was introduced to the republic in the sixties, do you really think they had this type of pitiful arguement in mind ? And could he really go travelling on the settlement ? FFS.

Here's an example at the other end of the age scale taken from the Irish Examiner- A mechanic who was refused permission to attend training courses because he was nearing retirement age has been awarded €30,000 by the Equality Tribunal.

John O’Neill claimed he had been discriminated against by his former employer, Fairview Motors — on grounds of age, as younger mechanics had been allowed to participate in similar courses.

About €6350 is the max award, I could go travelling on that

An awful lot has changed sine the sixties, we didn't really tackle any type of discrimination. Married women in the public sector had to leave their jobs because they were discriminated against - when they started to fight for equality lots of people belittled and tried to undermine them, so no I don't think that was the reason FLA was introduced but fortunately alot has changed since the sixties; but all types of discrimination still exist and shouldn't, (IMO) be accepted.

Discrimination of any kind needs to be tackled, its not something that is acceptable, no ifs, buts or maybes.

The FLAC that operates every second Wednesday deals with all types of complaints, including ones based on discrimination, thats what its there for. It is purely advisory

wellboytoo

sparkling sea wrote: »

Here's an example at the other end of the age scale taken from the Irish Examiner- A mechanic who was refused permission to attend training courses because he was nearing retirement age has been awarded €30,000 by the Equality Tribunal.

John O’Neill claimed he had been discriminated against by his former employer, Fairview Motors — on grounds of age, as younger mechanics had been allowed to participate in similar courses.

About €6350 is the max award, I could go travelling on that

An awful lot has changed sine the sixties, we didn't really tackle any type of discrimination. Married women in the public sector had to leave their jobs because they were discriminated against - when they started to fight for equality lots of people belittled and tried to undermine them, so no I don't think that was the reason FLA was introduced but fortunately alot has changed since the sixties; but all types of discrimination still exist and shouldn't, (IMO) be accepted.

Discrimination of any kind needs to be tackled, its not something that is acceptable, no ifs, buts or maybes.

The FLAC that operates every second Wednesday deals with all types of complaints, including ones based on discrimination, thats what its there for. It is purely advisory

I want the right to have a baby

stefan idiot jones

wellboytoo wrote: »

I want the right to have a baby

Bravo. No win, no fee ? Is this the way we are looking at things now ? I wanted to buy a packet of biscuits in Tescos on Paddy Browns road last year, as I entered the the shop I was turned away as it was ten to six and the shop shuts in ten minutes. Well I was outraged. The sign clearly stated that the shop shuts at six, not ten to or ten past. I immediatly contacted my lawyer, the gards and my mummy to protect me from this totalitarian tyrranny and they all told me the same thing..............................................cop on.

Finnbar01

sparkling sea wrote: »

Here's an example at the other end of the age scale taken from the Irish Examiner- A mechanic who was refused permission to attend training courses because he was nearing retirement age has been awarded €30,000 by the Equality Tribunal.

John O’Neill claimed he had been discriminated against by his former employer, Fairview Motors — on grounds of age, as younger mechanics had been allowed to participate in similar courses.

About €6350 is the max award, I could go travelling on that

An awful lot has changed sine the sixties, we didn't really tackle any type of discrimination. Married women in the public sector had to leave their jobs because they were discriminated against - when they started to fight for equality lots of people belittled and tried to undermine them, so no I don't think that was the reason FLA was introduced but fortunately alot has changed since the sixties; but all types of discrimination still exist and shouldn't, (IMO) be accepted.

Discrimination of any kind needs to be tackled, its not something that is acceptable, no ifs, buts or maybes.

The FLAC that operates every second Wednesday deals with all types of complaints, including ones based on discrimination, thats what its there for. It is purely advisory

No it doesn't. We need to make better use of our ability to discriminate.

wellboytoo

I was refused entry to the same place about six weeks ago after a good few, I asked the doorman " why I'm grand?" your grand he said but look at your buddy, turned around and he was all over the shop.
Good call , we went to the Woodman as it happens and sent him home on the back of a door 20 minutes later.
Get over it no one died , and they have a tough job to do at the best of times.
Also remember when you have even one drink taken you have lost the argument already.

MitchKoobski

From Sinnott's Facebook page:

We would like to wish all our customers a very Happy New Year and just to note we are now running over 23s every Friday and Saturday night from this weekend!

http://www.facebook.com/sinnotts.waterford?fref=ts

Dammit OP! That's your fault! :pac:

Dicky Pride

Facebook pages really show the levels of hypocrisy that prevail in this country. There's one nightclub in clonmel that has 20 year olds complaining that there are too many under agers going into the club. The same club that they've been going to since they were 16. On the sinnotts page you have 24 year olds saying it's a great thing that sinnotts will now be over 23s. The people that will love this new move are the people who go out once every 6 months.

They're doing this for one reason, and one reason only: send the under 23s to the foundry and they'll take everyone else. (They hope)

Bringthethunder

I guarantee you if your girlfriend was with a couple of other girls (no fella's) he would have let her in no matter what her age.

ManFromCheese

the bouncers in sinnotts are absolute scumbags. i had my first and last experience with the place over xmas. the way they and other pubs in waterford treat customers is a disgrace, the bar staff included. charge obscene amounts of money for drink, yet they are the first crowd to crib and complain when their pubs goes t.i.ts up. what was done to customers during the celtic tiger years was blackguarding too, if i had known better i would have kept my money in my pocket. very few pubs left in waterford city worth going to.

S28382

ManFromCheese wrote: »

the bouncers in sinnotts are absolute scumbags. i had my first and last experience with the place over xmas. the way they and other pubs in waterford treat customers is a disgrace, the bar staff included. charge obscene amounts of money for drink, yet they are the first crowd to crib and complain when their pubs goes t.i.ts up. what was done to customers during the celtic tiger years was blackguarding too, if i had known better i would have kept my money in my pocket. very few pubs left in waterford city worth going to.

That has to be the rant of the day :rolleyes:

Nypd

Don't see what all the fuss is about, it's not exactly the place to be, was in there Friday with a few friends, band were terrible, no atmosphere and not at all busy.
OP I don't think your missing out on much, will be interesting to see how the over 23's work for them, these guys don't exactly have a track history of getting it right in the city !!

ManFromCheese

S28382 wrote: »

That has to be the rant of the day :rolleyes:

it aint a rant its the truth. these places treat their customers like **** and hire a few braindead apes to work on the doors

Potential-Monke

Over-reaction to a typical action. You(r friend) got refused, you text the rest and move on. No point arguing, it'll get you no where. Move on to the next place and give them your money.

Anyway, Sinnotts is a terrible place. They could have the best DJ/Band in the world there, and i wouldn't go. It's so badly laid out, there are bottlenecks everywhere!

FeatherFelicis

To be honest Im quiet happy its over 23 because its nice to go into a bar that isnt packed with kids, No offence to the teenagers but ye guys have crystal, shorts and soon to be opened again Masons. So I dont think ye should be whining at least ye have variety.

old gregg

I just wish we had something similar to the Twisted Pepper in Waterford. A brilliantly run place where people into dance music can go and enjoy great music regardless of age. In all the many times I've been there I've never seen any hassle and the staff are all lovely to deal with.

PremierDeise

ManFromCheese wrote: »

the bouncers in sinnotts are absolute scumbags. i had my first and last experience with the place over xmas. the way they and other pubs in waterford treat customers is a disgrace, the bar staff included. charge obscene amounts of money for drink, yet they are the first crowd to crib and complain when their pubs goes t.i.ts up. what was done to customers during the celtic tiger years was blackguarding too, if i had known better i would have kept my money in my pocket. very few pubs left in waterford city worth going to.

Out of any of the security in Sinnotts there is only one decent one there - English lad on the front door.

FeatherFelicis

PremierDeise wrote: »

Out of any of the security in Sinnotts there is only one decent one there - English lad on the front door.

Yeh hes hot!!

PremierDeise

FeatherFelicis wrote: »

Yeh hes hot!!

Get down off him before ya fall - I meant decent as in sensible.

FeatherFelicis

PremierDeise wrote: »

Get down off him before ya fall - I meant decent as in sensible.

My apologises! I'm only stating the obvious that man is hot!

Dicky Pride

The air conditioning is fixed now so he should be ok again.