Kenya suffers worst single loss of elephants as poachers kill 12

Just Like Heaven

Even if you believed that killing elephants was an okay thing to do, the methods used by poachers are totally unacceptable.

steddyeddy

Anyone who eats an elephant or kills it is a backward person there's no other word for it. They haven't a clue about the intelligence of these creatures.

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

No not octopus or pigs actually based on my earlier comment. Although I think they are intelligent animals I dont think they possess spindle cells. Do you think there's any animal that should'nt be shot?

But cows though, and sheep.

All high-function animals.

To answer your question, I think you are making some very odd distinctions in your diet if cows are ok, but not pigs. It's OK, I went through a veggie phase.

As to your question, as long as the animal is not endangered nor poached, I have no problem eating them. I have eaten a lot of game including Kudu, Crocodile, Alligator, Elephant and Antelope. As long as they killed humanely and are from sustainable locations, I fail to see your objections.

I'm sure I'll be shot for this but if a dolphin dies of natural causes, I'm sure they are delicious. Why waste the food?

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

But cows though, and sheep.

All high-function animals.

To answer your question, I think you are making some very odd distinctions in your diet if cows are ok, but not pigs. It's OK, I went through a veggie phase.

As to your question, as long as the animal is not endangered nor poached, I have no problem eating them. I have eaten a lot of game including Kudu, Crocodile, Alligator, Elephant and Antelope. As long as they killed humanely and are from sustainable locations, I fail to see your objections.

I'm sure I'll be shot for this but if a dolphin dies of natural causes, I'm sure they are delicious. Why waste the food?

Would you eat human, gorilla, orangutang?

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

Anyone who eats an elephant or kills it is a backward person there's no other word for it. They haven't a clue about the intelligence of these creatures.

So a African village that feeds itself from a elephant that is culled because it is injured and in pain is backward? Should they build it a memorial?

Out of interest have you spent any time in Africa?

Pottler

MadsL wrote: »

But cows though, and sheep.

All high-function animals.

To answer your question, I think you are making some very odd distinctions in your diet if cows are ok, but not pigs. It's OK, I went through a veggie phase.

As to your question, as long as the animal is not endangered nor poached, I have no problem eating them. I have eaten a lot of game including Kudu, Crocodile, Alligator, Elephant and Antelope. As long as they killed humanely and are from sustainable locations, I fail to see your objections.

I'm sure I'll be shot for this but if a dolphin dies of natural causes, I'm sure they are delicious. Why waste the food?

Just make sure you don't wake up with a horn, or some fecker will try and poach you.

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

So a African village that feeds itself from a elephant that is culled because it is injured and in pain is backward? Should they build it a memorial?

Out of interest have you spent any time in Africa?

Yes actually I sent pictures to one or two members on here if they want to detail my time there. It was in a voluteer capacity. To be honest there's just some types of people who havent got the humanity and scientific knowledge to realise that there is very little difference between some animals and humans. They see every animal bar human as poles apart based on some christian dogma. Such people are down with creationsists to be honest.

Pottler

I like my girlfriend wrote: »

Dey took er elephants

Well said. Off to a flying start there Horse.

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

Would you eat human, gorilla, orangutang?

Human is illegal, but in the Andean plane crash scenario it wouldn't stop me from surviving if I had to.

Gorilla and orangutang are endangered, so no.

Out of interest why do you eat cows? Do you also eat lobster?

This game is fun. Why don't you eat octopus by the way. Moral reasons?

Stheno

Protected species should be protected and those who hunt them prosecuted though?

steddyeddy

Stheno wrote: »

Protected species should be protected and those who hunt them prosecuted though?

Shot in my opinion.

mahonykid

Pottler wrote: »

Just make sure you don't wake up with a horn, or some fecker will try and poach you.

I always wake up with a horn...:pac:

LiamMc

National Geographic article (SEpt. 2008) after the re-introduction of Elephnant Culling at Kruger National Park,RSA (May 1st 2008).
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/09/elephant-management/lange-text/2

"..Kruger's elephants have increased from 8,000 to more than 13,000. The elephants, each eating about 400 pounds of food a day, are transforming the landscape, tearing through vegetation, pulling down or uprooting trees and stripping them of bark. Hungry elephants, combined with wildfires that consume downed trees and saplings, are converting some parts of the park from wooded savanna to scrub grassland, providing habitat for grazers such as zebras but destroying nesting places for eagles and other birds."
".... Iain Douglas-Hamilton says, "In some cases I'd rather see a population collapse through starvation than see it culled." But zoologist John Hanks, a consultant with International Conservation Services, says that in certain situations, and as a last resort, park managers may need to cull to protect biodiversity. "We've created a highly artificial situation by restricting elephants to parks." "

Once again the Developing World has to carry the financial burden of attempting to protect larger mammals (Big Eyes, Close Together [BECT]). Ireland itself had it's own large mammals but become extinct, e.g. Giant Elk. I believe that communities that failed to protect larger mammal species shouldn't hector communities that live amongst larger mammals successfully.


There are organisations (genuine or not) that will have as there mission statement as conserving larger mammals [BECT].

Individuals in Developed World who disagree with culling, how much monetary resources have they directly contributed to the conserversation of larger mammals.

A reminder, all visitors to Kruger National Park, RSA, before 2008 or after, has contributed to the Culling of Elephants.

Party Supply Van

steddyeddy wrote: »

Shot in my opinion.

And fed to the animals they were hunting (if they're not herbivores)

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes actually I sent pictures to one or two members on here if they want to detail my time there. It was in a voluteer capacity. To be honest there's just some types of people who havent got the humanity and scientific knowledge to realise that there is very little difference between some animals and humans. They see every animal bar human as poles apart based on some christian dogma. Such people are down with creationsists to be honest.

Oh I see.

When you were doing your 'volunteer' stint in Africa, gap year was it? Tell me, did you look down on the locals there with their lack of "humanity and scientific knowledge"?

Bit of a whiff of holier-than-thou off you despite your distain for christian dogma, sounds like you swapped one dogma for another.

Not once in this thread have I condoned either elephant poaching nor the eating of ape "bushmeat" yet you try and paint me as some knuckle-dragger. Cheers for that.

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

Shot in my opinion.

But But they have thingy wotsit cells and families mourn for them...

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

Oh I see.

When you were doing your 'volunteer' stint in Africa, gap year was it? Tell me, did you look down on the locals there with their lack of "humanity and scientific knowledge"?

Bit of a whiff of holier-than-thou off you despite your distain for christian dogma, sounds like you swapped one dogma for another.

Not once in this thread have I condoned either elephant poaching nor the eating of ape "bushmeat" yet you try and paint me as some knuckle-dragger. Cheers for that.

No actually it was for a substantial length of time. No offence it wasnt aimed at you. We're all entitled to our opinion. You think these animals can be shot or eaten with no moral problem about that. I think people who do don't know the science behind these animals. Your opinion offends me quite a bit more tbh. By the way a large proportion of the tribes all have certain animals that they wont kill. You said you would have no problem eating any legal animal.

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

But But they have thingy wotsit cells and families mourn for them...

They probrably dont to be honest. I dont see them as intelligent human beings.

steddyeddy

As I said I dont mind hunting or eating certian animals but some of the more intelligent animals should be off limits.

MadsL

LiamMc wrote: »

National Geographic article (SEpt. 2008) after the re-introduction of Elephnant Culling at Kruger National Park,RSA (May 1st 2008).
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/09/elephant-management/lange-text/2

"..Kruger's elephants have increased from 8,000 to more than 13,000. The elephants, each eating about 400 pounds of food a day, are transforming the landscape, tearing through vegetation, pulling down or uprooting trees and stripping them of bark. Hungry elephants, combined with wildfires that consume downed trees and saplings, are converting some parts of the park from wooded savanna to scrub grassland, providing habitat for grazers such as zebras but destroying nesting places for eagles and other birds."
".... Iain Douglas-Hamilton says, "In some cases I'd rather see a population collapse through starvation than see it culled." But zoologist John Hanks, a consultant with International Conservation Services, says that in certain situations, and as a last resort, park managers may need to cull to protect biodiversity. "We've created a highly artificial situation by restricting elephants to parks." "

Once again the Developing World has to carry the financial burden of attempting to protect larger mammals (Big Eyes, Close Together [BECT]). Ireland itself had it's own large mammals but become extinct, e.g. Giant Elk. I believe that communities that failed to protect larger mammal species shouldn't hector communities that live amongst larger mammals successfully.


There are organisations (genuine or not) that will have as there mission statement as conserving larger mammals [BECT].

Individuals in Developed World who disagree with culling, how much monetary resources have they directly contributed to the conserversation of larger mammals.

A reminder, all visitors to Kruger National Park, RSA, before 2008 or after, has contributed to the Culling of Elephants.

I've been to Kruger and seen the damage there. The long term solution is contraception within managed parks, but that will take time, in the interim the solution is either culling or tear down the fences.

Tearing down the fences will have a devasting effect on the local rural populations in the loss of livelihoods.

Party Supply Van

MadsL wrote: »

But But they have thingy wotsit cells and families mourn for them...

then their families will hopefully learn that no good will come from killing endangered animals

TheBegotten

Dreadful to hear this kind of thing, considering we're the elephant's only natural predator (bar the infirm). On a semi-related note, how many people die in Kenya due to inadequate food or medical attention each day?

steddyeddy

TheBegotten wrote: »

Dreadful to hear this kind of thing, considering we're the elephant's only natural predator (bar the infirm). On a semi-related note, how many people die in Kenya due to inadequate food or medical attention each day?

Well there is a specialist group of lions that kill elephants.

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

No actually it was for a substantial length of time. No offence it wasnt aimed at you. We're all entitled to our opinion. You think these animals can be shot or eaten with no moral problem about that. I think people who do don't know the science behind these animals. Your opinion offends me quite a bit more tbh. By the way a large proportion of the tribes all have certain animals that they wont kill. You said you would have no problem eating any legal animal.

Let's be clear. Any elephant meat I ate was culled in Kruger, a national park, under scientific supervision.

Should that meat just go to waste? - why does me eating a product that puts money into a developing economy offend you?

Out of interest - do you eat cod and chips? You seem to have some odd food taboos, care to list them?

TheBegotten

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well there is a specialist group of lions that kill elephants.

Don't fvck with them.

Maudi

gallag wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/9787429/Kenya-suffers-worst-single-loss-of-elephants-as-poachers-kill-12.html


So sad, when will the chinese learn to stop buying ivory?

the unprecedented demand for ivory by china!!w.t.f.is wrong with those people?and then c.i.t.i.e.s realease ivory into the market..so c.i.t.e.s are now ivory brokers..i will never support such corruption again..

MadsL

Maudi wrote: »

the unprecedented demand for ivory by china!!w.t.f.is wrong with those people?and then c.i.t.i.e.s realease ivory into the market..so c.i.t.e.s are now ivory brokers..i will never support such corruption again..

Sorry, what? What corruption are you supporting?

http://www.cites.org/eng/news/pr/2012/20120731_SC62_results.php

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

Let's be clear. Any elephant meat I ate was culled in Kruger, a national park, under scientific supervision.

Should that meat just go to waste? - why does me eating a product that puts money into a developing economy offend you?

Out of interest - do you eat cod and chips? You seem to have some odd food taboos, care to list them?

I dont eat intelligent animals. Also Im sorry If I offended you. No the meat should'nt go to waste if people are starving but I think there's some animals that shouldn't be killed.

woodoo

TheBegotten wrote: »

Dreadful to hear this kind of thing, considering we're the elephant's only natural predator (bar the infirm). On a semi-related note, how many people die in Kenya due to inadequate food or medical attention each day?

There is only so much we can do with providing food to these countries. Take Ethiopia for example, everyone remembers the 1984 famine. Well the population of Ethiopia was 41 million in 1984 it is now 82 million. The government there is showing no interest in trying control population growth. We can't be expected to keep feeding ever growing populations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ethiopia

With regards to the elephants, rhinos etc. We are just interested in stopping them from becoming extinct.

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont eat intelligent animals. Also Im sorry If I offended you. No the meat should'nt go to waste if people are starving but I think there's some animals that shouldn't be killed.

Which ones?

You mentioned any animal containing spindle cells and then possessed of a high level of intelligence and or emotional capability.

Spindle cells is easy, humans, apes and elephants.

What else don't you eat?

You said pigs I believe, anything else?

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

Which ones?

You mentioned any animal containing spindle cells and then possessed of a high level of intelligence and or emotional capability.

Spindle cells is easy, humans, apes and elephants.

What else don't you eat?

You said pigs I believe, anything else?

Well yes whale dolphin and any other very intelligent animal with spindle cells. It's a very small list.

Maudi

LiamMc wrote: »

National Geographic article (SEpt. 2008) after the re-introduction of Elephnant Culling at Kruger National Park,RSA (May 1st 2008).
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/09/elephant-management/lange-text/2

"..Kruger's elephants have increased from 8,000 to more than 13,000. The elephants, each eating about 400 pounds of food a day, are transforming the landscape, tearing through vegetation, pulling down or uprooting trees and stripping them of bark. Hungry elephants, combined with wildfires that consume downed trees and saplings, are converting some parts of the park from wooded savanna to scrub grassland, providing habitat for grazers such as zebras but destroying nesting places for eagles and other birds."
".... Iain Douglas-Hamilton says, "In some cases I'd rather see a population collapse through starvation than see it culled." But zoologist John Hanks, a consultant with International Conservation Services, says that in certain situations, and as a last resort, park managers may need to cull to protect biodiversity. "We've created a highly artificial situation by restricting elephants to parks." "

Once again the Developing World has to carry the financial burden of attempting to protect larger mammals (Big Eyes, Close Together [BECT]). Ireland itself had it's own large mammals but become extinct, e.g. Giant Elk. I believe that communities that failed to protect larger mammal species shouldn't hector communities that live amongst larger mammals successfully.


There are organisations (genuine or not) that will have as there mission statement as conserving larger mammals [BECT].

Individuals in Developed World who disagree with culling, how much monetary resources have they directly contributed to the conserversation of larger mammals.

A reminder, all visitors to Kruger National Park, RSA, before 2008 or after, has contributed to the Culling of Elephants.

i know it late and maybe im tired but did the cretin in the above post really imply that irish people shudnt get involved about natives slaughtering elephants with machine guns.because we let giant elk go extinct?!!?!!?!!??

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well yes whale dolphin and any other very intelligent animal with spindle cells. It's a very small list.

So you would be very prepared to eat cod, a species on its way to being fished out of existence, but not a culled African elephant and put money into a developing economy and help to save other endangered African species through game preserves. And you also wouldn't allow paid hunting, even though $45-50k could provide a doctor for a rural community and save lives.

Interesting moral stance, one you are entitled to, but forgive me if I point out the inconsistencies.

MadsL

Maudi wrote: »

i know it late and maybe im tired but did the cretin in the above post really imply that irish people shudnt get involved about natives slaughtering elephants with machine guns.because we let giant elk go extinct?!!?!!?!!??

I made a similar point earlier when I pointed out that Ireland was rapidly shooting the curlew out of existence. Never eaten one mind, do they taste much like elephant?

canislupus

They were killed for their ivory, in order for that to be sold on a market where its believed to have medicinal value.

The renewed campaign of poaching for ivory (for ornaments and seals/not medicially used ) and for Rhino horn (for it's puported medicinal qualities and dagger handles) has seen the number of poached rhino and elephant reported skyrocket in the last few years. The numbers are staggering (in 2012 633 white rhino lost in South Africa alone) and there is reason to believe that in many areas the numbers are under-reported either deliberately or through lack of proper monitoring.

game reserve which occupy only a tiny fraction of the land mass elephants once roamed. outside of reserves the numbers are still hugely down. But unfotunatly they can't even relocate them to build up sustainable pops everywhere as they'll just be killed by the local idiots

What wildlife do you have in your back garden? birds, mice, the odd visiting fox? How about stoat, pine marten, badgers. What raptors do you commonly see? sparrowhawks, kestrel, a golden eagle. When did you last see a wolf or boar wandering down your street. It is a sad FACT that Ireland's, and most of Europes landscapes have been completely altered from their natural state by human activity, Europes megafauna has largely been driven to extinction over the last ten thousand years. Europe's largest remaining terrestrial mammal is the European bison; only a handfull of which remain in isolated pockets in Poland. In comparrison Africa, and Kenya particularly (this is where I am most familiar with) still has an unbelievable rich fauna. It is not possible by and large to relocate animals outside of protected reserves as, in most habitat (that isn't inhospitibale to human habitation), there are people there. Most of them subsistence farmers eeking a living from small plots of land. I have personally visited farms that have been raided by elephants and seen the utter devestation caused in the night. Families food supplies and future security shattered. There are far too many perils facing these magnificent creatures and putting blame on 'idiot' locals ignores a myriad of more important ones.

Elephants are a very destructive species; they are considered a "Keystone" species for this very reason. Elephant poulations "create and maintain" the savannah habitat by keeping trees and brush at bay. When elephgant populations reach high densities (due to the cutting off of traditional migration routes for example) the area can be decimated quickly, particularly in forested habitat. There are well documneted example of this (currently in the Aberdares N.P and also in Tsavo N.P. in the 1970's).
This is a simple fact that needs to be understood and appreciated if there is to be any future for the elephant in Africa. However this [the current poaching epidemic] is not the managemnet of isolated, growing populations by conservationist for the longterm benefit of the species and the surrounding habitat.
This is systematic slaughter, which has not been seen since the 80's when rhino and elephant numbers plummeted and it is due to well organised, extremely well financed criminal groups from Asia ( China and Vietnam). There has been ample evidence of the collusion of state officials from both African and Asian Countries. There is also suggestion that in the case of rhino in particular there is market speculation ("banking on extiction") that could cause the death knell of the species.
Very sad news.

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

I made a similar point earlier when I pointed out that Ireland was rapidly shooting the curlew out of existence. Never eaten one mind, do they taste much like elephant?

My posts here have criticised the Irish farmer for killing of the sea eagle and other species more than I have talked about African poaching.

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

So you would be very prepared to eat cod, a species on its way to being fished out of existence, but not a culled African elephant and put money into a developing economy and help to save other endangered African species through game preserves. And you also wouldn't allow paid hunting, even though $45-50k could provide a doctor for a rural community and save lives.

Interesting moral stance, one you are entitled to, but forgive me if I point out the inconsistencies.

No endangered or intelligent animal. There's no need for it. Again Ill state that I dont think I would reduce an intelligent animal's worth by allowing his only value to be as for target practice for some rich human. I would rather the locals murder the rich human and steal his money.

MadsL

But you still enjoy a cod supper.

I tell you what, I'll (continue) to try and stop my neighbours from shooting coyotes, you get the Irish to reintroduce the European wolf, and then we'll talk about African villages making some hope of a decent life for themselves by careful elephant herd management, trophy culling and meat consuming.

Night.

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

But you still enjoy a cod supper.

I tell you what, I'll (continue) to try and stop my neighbours from shooting coyotes, you get the Irish to reintroduce the European wolf, and then we'll talk about African villages making some hope of a decent life for themselves by careful elephant herd management, trophy culling and meat consuming.

Night.

Em no I dont enjoy a cod supper actually. The only way african villages make money is to shoot elephants? Bullsh1t. Numerous elephants are dying they're an intelligent animal who feel the loss of every member of the herd. I dont like the idea of stupid humans killing them.

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

Em no I dont enjoy a cod supper actually. The only way african villages make money is to shoot elephants? Bullsh1t. Numerous elephants are dying they're an intelligent animal who feel the loss of every member of the herd. I dont like the idea of stupid humans killing them.

The only way they can currently sustain elephant populations in game reserves is by trophy hunting and culls until they can successfully control via contraceptive.

Would you prefer to see these animals starve? Or let out beyond the fences where the poachers will get them anyway.

I think you are in a bit of a romantic dreamworld about it all tbh. Any sign of those wolves yet?

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

The only way they can currently sustain elephant populations in game reserves is by trophy hunting and culls until they can successfully control via contraceptive.

Would you prefer to see these animals starve? Or let out beyond the fences where the poachers will get them anyway.

I think you are in a bit of a romantic dreamworld about it all tbh. Any sign of those wolves yet?

I think you haven't a clue about the emotional or intelligence capabilities of these elephants to be honest or that you care. We dont need game reserves. Humans are far more likely to starve in africa. I woudlnt support the shooting of either. If population of elephants increases they could be given a contraceptive. I would prefer to wipe out the well financed poachers. As regards shooting them I dont think we should send any message out that shooting these animals is acceptable.

No not yet we also need to re-establish forests. I hope you guys across the pond are dealing with the feral montanna horse problem?

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think you haven't a clue about the emotional or intelligence capabilities of these elephants to be honest or that you care. We dont need game reserves.

They would be emotionally or intelligently extinct without the game reserves and tourism as well you know.

Humans are far more likely to starve in africa. I woudlnt support the shooting of either. If population of elephants increases they could be given a contraceptive.

As you claim to know something about elephants you will understand that they have a slow rate of reproduction and gestation. That it takes time to have an effect on numbers through contraceptive means, some game reserves are also huge so you need to try and hit each animal with a sedative or contraceptive dart on regular cycles. All of that takes time, decades even.

I would prefer to wipe out the well financed poachers. As regards shooting them I dont think we should send any message out that shooting these animals is acceptable.

The majority of conservation scientists disagree.

No not yet we also need to re-establish forests. I hope you guys across the pond are dealing with the feral montanna horse problem?

Through contraception and roundups, yes. Horses are different to elephants are they not?

Are you trying to have a go at the US on wildlife conservation? Don't make me laugh, you can't move a bear out of your own a garage once it is comfortable and not aggressive. The US has some of the most stringent wildlife laws in the world.

Fizman

If this continues, we'll have to change a very popular saying.

Simply because there will be no elephants left to be in the room.

steddyeddy

MadsL wrote: »

They would be emotionally or intelligently extinct without the game reserves and tourism as well you know.


As you claim to know something about elephants you will understand that they have a slow rate of reproduction and gestation. That it takes time to have an effect on numbers through contraceptive means, some game reserves are also huge so you need to try and hit each animal with a sedative or contraceptive dart on regular cycles. All of that takes time, decades even.


The majority of conservation scientists disagree.



Through contraception and roundups, yes. Horses are different to elephants are they not?

Are you trying to have a go at the US on wildlife conservation? Don't make me laugh, you can't move a bear out of your own a garage once it is comfortable and not aggressive. The US has some of the most stringent wildlife laws in the world.

I'm not having a go at us conservation it is the best conservation in the world. It's another place I spent some time. Elephants are being poached at huge rates how can we cull when we haven't dealt with the poaching?

Regarding the horses when I was living in the states there was an issue that feral horses in Montana were starving and there was a debate as to whether they should be culled or whether another animal should be reintroduced. It wasn't a dig I was just curious.

shinikins

MadsL wrote: »

South Africa begs to differ.

Speaking as someone who is currently living in South Africa, there are a hell of a lot of things that they beg to differ with here, most of them highly contentious and designed to funnel large amounts of cash into certain government officials pockets.

As for your statement about elephant jerky being widely available here(its called biltong btw, totally different to jerky) I really have to call bull on that. Simply not true, the only place you can purchase this is in Kruger National Park, and only Elephants who have died from natural causes are used, the proceeds go directly towards Elephant conservation within the Park.

Fact of the matter is, contraception is the best way to control Elephant populations, not culling. One single contraceptive shot costs roughly 1200 rand, and can be administered from a helicopter, takes only a few hours to treat the herds, and needs to be topped up only once a year thereafter. Given that female Elephants only come into sexual maturity at 12-14 years of age, herd levels can be managed quite easily.

MadsL

shinikins wrote: »

Speaking as someone who is currently living in South Africa, there are a hell of a lot of things that they beg to differ with here, most of them highly contentious and designed to funnel large amounts of cash into certain government officials pockets.

Nothing changed much then sinch I was last there.

As for your statement about elephant jerky being widely available here(its called biltong btw, totally different to jerky) I really have to call bull on that. Simply not true, the only place you can purchase this is in Kruger National Park, and only Elephants who have died from natural causes are used, the proceeds go directly towards Elephant conservation within the Park.

Widely may have been a small exaggeration - I bought mine in Kruger and Cape Town.

Fact of the matter is, contraception is the best way to control Elephant populations, not culling. One single contraceptive shot costs roughly 1200 rand, and can be administered from a helicopter, takes only a few hours to treat the herds, and needs to be topped up only once a year thereafter. Given that female Elephants only come into sexual maturity at 12-14 years of age, herd levels can be managed quite easily.

I never disputed that this is absolutely the best way, but that the cost of that and the timescale mean that at the moment culling and contraception is where we are at.

shinikins

MadsL wrote: »

I never disputed that this is absolutely the best way, but that the cost of that and the timescale mean that at the moment culling and contraception is where we are at.

What timescale?? Elephant herd levels here have been stable for the last 8 years. Reproduction only increases herd levels by circa 6% each year, which is about the same level of natural deaths. Cost isn't a factor-its actually more expensive and labour intensive to cull as the only effective way to do it is from ground level-its cheaper to administer contraception.

Also, something that hasn't been mentioned is that African Elephants comprise of two very different subspecies, the Bush and Forrest Elephant(which makes up roughly one third of total African population). Culling doesn't differentiate between the two, meaning there are no controls on how many of each are culled. In simple terms, one could easily be culled out of existence, as is happening with the Forrest Elephant right now in the Congo Basin.

CruelCoin

gallag wrote: »

So sad, when will the chinese learn to stop buying ivory?

When it stops being beautiful and stops curing dick cancer....

steddyeddy

Just to destroy the fallacy that there are swathes of people in Africa who want the elephant to be shot to provide money, heres a link from national geographic. It details the burning of over ten thousand pounds of ivory by Gabon. The tribes and peoples of africa respect these animals most of the time. It's just ex colonial powers and foreign hunters who try and paint elephants as a probem.

MadsL

steddyeddy wrote: »

Just to destroy the fallacy that there are swathes of people in Africa who want the elephant to be shot to provide money, heres a link from national geographic. It details the burning of over ten thousand pounds of ivory by Gabon. The tribes and peoples of africa respect these animals most of the time. It's just ex colonial powers and foreign hunters who try and paint elephants as a probem.

In certain parts of Africa, in certain parks, elephant overpopulation is a problem. Most reasonable conservationists see that. All that is being argued over is the method of population control.

I'm not sure why you are trying to paint it as a colonial or racial issue.