Was Stalin worse than Hitler?

hatrickpatrick

Luca Brasi wrote: »

Stalin and the Communists cant have been too bad or else Gilmore Rabbittee and their Sticky friends in Sinn Fein The Workers Party/Official IRA (remember them)wouldn't have spent the 70s and 80s sucking up to the Russians

Yes, because Stalin's reign of terror is in any way comparable to modern Russia or the late soviet union :rolleyes:

SafeSurfer

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

UK until fairly recently was #2 in military spending.
China and Russia have only recently passed them. France is spending about the same.

The Falklands war showed that the UK could still project power globally. Though the loss of fixed wing naval aircraft means this may no longer be the case.

The British would have lost the Falklands war without US help, such as the provision of the latest sidewinder missiles. The British ability to project power internationally is very limited. The British navy has fallen behind rivals in terms of power and investment.

Capt'n Midnight

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The British would have lost the Falklands war without US help, such as the provision of the latest sidewinder missiles. The British ability to project power internationally is very limited. The British navy has fallen behind rivals in terms of power and investment.

That and all the satellite intel and the US giving them all the procedures from joint US Argentian naval exercises (the US sold them down the river)

But apart from the US / USSR who else could have done that ?

FloatingVoter

Neither Hitler or Stalin were around for the Falklands war.

Capt'n Midnight

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Neither Hitler or Stalin were around for the Falklands war.

Sorry
keep forgetting that The Battle of the Falklands was WWI

Hitler would have known about that, and Plan Z scaled accordingly. So the German Navy wasn't going to be ready until 1945 at the earliest to challenge the UK domination at sea.

bb1234567

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Stalin was a bigger monster in my opinion. Nobody was safe in his sphere. In fact the people who were closest to him were often the ones who suffered most. He murdered countless generals out of sheer paranoia and his own wife even committed suicide.

Plenty of Hitlers generals got whacked too ya'know

archer22

bb1234567 wrote: »

Plenty of Hitlers generals got whacked too ya'know

Who ?

Capt'n Midnight

bb1234567 wrote: »

Plenty of Hitlers generals got whacked too ya'know

Apart from those involved in assassination attempts how many got whacked before the very end ?

Tony EH

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullpost
Simple difference - Stalin did not discriminate whereas Hitler did. So Hitler badder!

Where To wrote: »

Try telling that to the Kulaks.

...Or the Kalmyks.

Tony EH

marcsignal wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but when did Stalin make this request ?? Before the war ?

News to me I must admit. I do think though, the Poles might have had a thing or two to say about Stalin making such a request of Britain and France.

As far as I recall, Stalin suggested that both Russia and the "west" (especially France, as she had signed an agreement with the Czechs) move on Germany during the Czech crisis. To facilitate this, Russia would have to be allowed passage through Poland. The Poles, however, flatly refused the idea, because they, quite rightly IMO, believed that once there were Russian troops on Polish soil, they would be there to stay.

In any case, Russian troops would have to have forcibly enter Polish borders, due to Polish intransigence and Hitler would have gone with Plan A, which was a German/Polish alliance against his number one enemy. Before 1939, Hitler had openly courted the idea of a German/Polish anti-Communist ideal, at least ostensibly. He was well aware about the past political grievances that the Poles harboured against the Russians and was prepared to utilise them to his own raison d'etre, the destruction of the Communist state.

The Europe of the 30's were more focused on the "evils" of Communism, rather than Nazism, as the ruling elites of western nations feared the social upheavals that Communism would bring to their own nations, if that ideology remained unchecked. Nazism didn't offer the about face that Communism offered to the "masses", who generally viewed the ideology as "good for them" and the ruling classes of the 1930's were terribly afraid of such. It was this fear that led to the western nations marginalising Russia, in favour of Germany, in the affairs of the early to late 30's (including the affairs on Russia's own doorstep). Up until Britain's remarkable abandoning of her previous "pro-German" stance in 1939, the western nations ruling classes were more than happy to support Hitler's ambitions for Germany, as they believed that if there was to be a war in Europe, it would have been contained to the east.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

Well Hitler served in the German army in the first World War so might have shot someone. He certainly would have seen people being killed on both sides. His fellow troops thought him a right oddball. He won a medal for bravery*.


*Hitler never wore his medals, unlike the rest of his cronies who were busy inventing medals and awards for themselves. On that score at least he was less of a preening dickhead.

Hitler wore his WWI Iron Cross and his party badge nearly all the time. Also, he was a "runner" in the first world war, so It's unlikely that he would have been shooting anyone. His duties were basically liaison between front lines and rear areas, which was an extremely dangerous job, as runners had to operate even in barrages, which as you can imagine would have been one hell of a nightmare. This was the reason he won his decoration, decorations which were not handed out willy-nilly.

In addition, his cronies couldn't invent medals. They had to be awarded them by the state and the award had to be instituted by the fuhrer. Even Göring's Grand cross of the Knight's Cross had to be given to him, although he did make copies of it. In any case, Göring rarely wore it and it was replaced by his WWI Pour le Merite.

The German's, as opposed to nearly every other nation, were actually quite stingy when it came to medals and the awarding of them.

Tony EH

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I haven't read the bought the book about hitler and WW1 but this podcast interview with the author is quite interesting in showing that Hitler probably wasn;t the frontline soldier he is often thought off. More likely spending most of his time behind the lines.
Oh and his medal wasn;t necessarily that big a deal it was 2nd not 1st class

http://newbooksinhistory.com/2010/12/03/thomas-weber-hitlers-first-war-adolf-hitler-the-men-of-the-list-regiment-and-the-first-world-war/

As a dispatch runner, Hitler would have spent a significant portion of his time at rear areas, as this was where orders to front lines would have been generated. It certainly isn't any slight on his service. He was still required to transmit those orders and often under the most extreme of circumstances.

Also, he was awarded both the 2nd class and the 1st class Iron Cross, plus the Wound Badge 3rd Class. Any of which was a "big deal" indeed.

Wibbs

Tony EH wrote: »

The German's, as opposed to nearly every other nation, were actually quite stingy when it came to medals and the awarding of them.

I dunno about that T, in WW2 they awarded nearly five million 2nd class iron crosses, three quarters of a million 1st class. That's a fair whack of medals. Since the war there has been a general notion that the Germans were more careful about such things. You see it in tallies for fighter pilots, where the allies are suggested to have been more "inventive" with the truth. However subsequent research has found the Germans could be just as inventive at times.

Tony EH

Actually, the Gerries had quite a strict view on fighter pilot's claims and their awards and despite subsequent attempts post-war to discredit them, they have usually stood the test of time. They were also the only nation to institute a 1 pilot/1 kill system and claims could take literally months to file and be awarded by the Reichsluftministerium. I've seen documents of claims filed by aces of 30+ kills that were around 6 months or more in bureaucratic limbo in Berlin, even in 1942/43. Even aces of Gunther Rall and Erich Hartmann's caliber had claims denied because of "lack of evidence". If you had no reliable witness(es), the claim didn't even get beyond Geschwader level, no matter who were.

Of course, some claims were awarded that shouldn't have been, as was the norm in all airforces at the time and no doubt there were pilots who outright lied to inflate their tallies. However, in general, the German system tended to minimise such instances quite successfully. For instance, the kill / loss ratio for June - December 1941 in Russia is remarkably close.

In the west, with the defence against allied heavy bombers, it was harder to quantify claims. Often a bomber, shot out of formation with smoking engines, would lead a pilot to believe that the aircraft had been shot down, when in actual fact, it had limped home, or there were several pilots who contributed to a kill. This led to the institution of a "points system" for the western Jagdgeschwader, when facing bombers.

Concerning kill / loss ratios, it was extremely important that the Germans accurately log this information as they faced a large number of combatant nations. Thus, recording the information of enemy losses became a very serious matter indeed, where inflated claims provided no service at all.

Concerning the Luftwaffe, the high number of Iron Crosses handed out to fighter pilots arose largely because of the fact that 5 kills constituted an "ace" and the subsequent award of an Iron Cross. This was a number that could be achieved in a relatively short amount of time by good pilots, especially in the east, due to the "target rich" environments that the German pilots flew in. Simply put, they were often vastly outnumbered in the air. In Russia, because of the high kill ratio, many pilots were required to have way more than 5 kills to be considered for an award, let alone an "ace". Pilots with 10 kills or more were still considered "green". "Ace" status, or "Experten" carried a different air in the Luftwaffe, than in the RAF or USAAF.

These awards, however, still had to be won and in many cases the basic criteria for the award wasn't enough. For instance, to be awarded an Iron Cross 2nd Class, one had to perform an act of bravery. But quite often, acts of bravery went unrewarded. This was especially the case as the war dragged on. Superiors in Berlin often had to be "lobbied" heavily by officers in charge of the potential recipient. Even division commanders had to get in on the case at times.

Wibbs

Oh sure, plus German pilots rarely rotated out of active service unlike allied pilots. Flying 5 missions a day wasn't rare. One Ju 87 pilot whose name escapes(not Rudel) rattled up something daft like 100+ missions in just a month and 1000 missions racked up wasn't that rare(IIRC Rudel hit 3000+). That said looking at the battle of Britain, while the Germans were more accurate in kills/losses, they still over egged their successes.

Still over nearly 6 million iron crosses, 1st and 2nd class is a lot of medals awarded.

old hippy

Madam_X wrote: »

And The Man In The High Castle by Philip K. Dick.

Thought you'd be interested in goings-on everywhere equally?

I'm fast losing interest in what western culture and current affairs present to me on a daily basis :(:(

Balmed Out

archer22 wrote: »

Who ?

Off hand I know there were a couple killed during the night of the long knives before the war, the valkyrie assassination attempt (some through encouraged suicide like Rommel) and I think some for desertion towards the end including eva brauns brother in law.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh sure, plus German pilots rarely rotated out of active service unlike allied pilots. Flying 5 missions a day wasn't rare. One Ju 87 pilot whose name escapes(not Rudel) rattled up something daft like 100+ missions in just a month and 1000 missions racked up wasn't that rare(IIRC Rudel hit 3000+). That said looking at the battle of Britain, while the Germans were more accurate in kills/losses, they still over egged their successes.

Still over nearly 6 million iron crosses, 1st and 2nd class is a lot of medals awarded.

Certainly, there was a lot of over-claiming done by each side in the BoB. But, claims aren't kills and I am unsure as to the ratio of claims/kills awarded.

However, the luftwaffe was made aware of their over-claiming problem during that conflict and took measures to combat future instances. The over-claiming during the BoB was terribly detrimental to German intelligence and a great hindrance.

I believe that there were up to 4 1/2 million 2nd Class Iron Crosses and 300.000 1st class Iron Crosses awarded during the war. When one considers that there was around 18 1/2 million people serving in the Wehrmacht in some capacity, since its inception, it doesn't sound that much.