UK to leave EU?

Drumpot

keithclancy wrote: »

Hang on .... didn't Ireland, Greece and Italy to that to themselves because there wasn't fiscal controls in place to prevent it ?

Why put Ireland in the same breath as Greece? They are in trouble for completely differant reasons.

We could of managed our fiscal deficit at a much lower cost but our European friends were not excited with the idea of German and French banks getting defaulted on by Irish banks whom they lent money to. They were also more concerned the knock on effects would have eu wide then in Ireland if our banks debts were not honoured.

We could of protected deposits and burned everybody else but out eu friends would not hear of it. I live the hypocrisy in the concept that suposedly Irish taxpayers should be responsible for the reckless lending of private institutions funded by foreign investment. What responsibility has the eu taken? F""k all. While the going was good they were happy to take nice yields on their irish bank investments but when the sh*t hit the fan they expect taxpayers to subsidise the collapse!


Greece got cheap money and spent it all without any regard for how they might pay it back.

In fairness whatever our eu partners have done for us in the past they have hung Ireland out to dry and charged us up the hole for the pleasure.

I'm not advocating that we leave the euro, I'm just calling the raping of our country for what it was. We aren't in a strong position to negotiate so our business partners are not interest in listening.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

Its amazing that when the UK is criticised that the usual suspects from there pop up in defence of the kingdom!

probably because we are stalking you

keithclancy

Drumpot wrote: »

Why put Ireland in the same breath as Greece? They are in trouble for completely differant reasons.

We could of managed our fiscal deficit at a much lower cost but our European friends were not excited with the idea of German and French banks getting defaulted on by Irish banks whom they lent money to. They were also more concerned the knock on effects would have eu wide then in Ireland if our banks debts were not honoured.

We could of protected deposits and burned everybody else but out eu friends would not hear of it.


Greece got cheap money and spent it all without any regard for how they might pay it back.

In fairness whatever our eu partners have done for us in the past they have hung Ireland out to dry and charged us up the hole for the pleasure.

I'm not advocating that we leave the euro, I'm just calling the raping of our country for what it was. We aren't in a strong position to negotiate so our business partners are not interest in listening.

Regardless of what happened afterwards, there was a lot of private debt created in Ireland.

Greece was all public debt

Italy is just a f*cking mess.

There was pretty much zero overview on the financial goings on in each of those countries even though they shared the same currency.

asherbassad

summerskin wrote: »

I don't need a visa to go to Switzerland, or many other non-eu countries. Stupid post.

Who's to say they won't reintroduce visa restrictions? Think of all the foreign students who study in England? They're now going to need student visas. All the Polish bar staff are going to need to apply for work permits.
Europeans are living and working in other European countries in far greater numbers than in the 70s and 80s. It's become natural now. If the UK leaves the EU you're going to have the issue of work visas. People will circumvent this by entering the country and working illegally. This is turn will raise the need for holiday visas coupled with a passport stamp determining how long you can stay. It's far fetched, I agree....but your response is far more stupid than my post.

summerskin

gurramok wrote: »

Its amazing that when the UK is criticised that the usual suspects from there pop up in defence of the kingdom!

Yeah, we miss our Kingdom, our Empire, our colonial past. We long to defend the UK and pray for the day when Britannia will once again rule the world.


That's why we live in Ireland....

drdeadlift

pmcmahon wrote: »

Iceland have fisheries,Norway has oil and Switzerland has the banks.We have turf and spuds,if you think we could,in raw terms,we could default and get away with it on spuds and turf,you're a bit mental.

Does Ireland not have fisheries too?>

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

Now we have that circular argument out of the way have you any opinion on the thread topic?

Yeh, perhaps they should leave the EU, it would suit the Little Englanders

Busted Flat.

drdeadlift wrote: »

Does Ireland not have fisheries too?>

Obviously, he is not used to good food, what about beef, we export it all over the world. What about our young we export them as well.

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

Yeh, perhaps they should leave the EU, it would suit the Little Englanders

WHAT WHAT WHAT, how dare you, fred- you tell the Queen, summerskin- you assemble the rest of the gang, ill shine the crown defence light into the air. Gb defence assembbbbbbbbbbleee.

Busted Flat.

Has Cameron the brains or intelligence to listen to the UK's business leaders or be able to man up to the Euro sceptic's.

In an open letter, the heads of some of Britain's biggest companies said Britain can't afford to quit a market of 500 million people that buys half of its exports.

Other countries in the 27-nation bloc would probably reject Cameron's attempts to claw back powers from Brussels, isolating the country from its biggest trading partner, they said.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=brits%20to%20pull%20out%20of%20eu%20latest%20news&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fbusiness%2Feuropean%2Fbritish-business-leaders-warn-cameron-of-eu-pullout-side-effects-3347770.html&ei=FD7wUJ0zhraEB5WQgLAH&usg=AFQjCNGy180PPVJfNTK0D0IzPwwBVfQ3dw

DEFTLEFTHAND

drdeadlift wrote: »

Does Ireland not have fisheries too?>

It's an industry that certainly could be developed more, it's a lucrative ground. However we basically traded our waters for agricultural subsidies and other initiatives when we joined the EU. Other states with bigger and better fleets fish our water's also. The Irish industry has stood still since the 70s in regards to modernisation.

gallag

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Has Cameron the brains or intelligence to listen to the UK's business leaders or be able to man up to the Euro sceptic's.

In an open letter, the heads of some of Britain's biggest companies said Britain can't afford to quit a market of 500 million people that buys half of its exports.

Other countries in the 27-nation bloc would probably reject Cameron's attempts to claw back powers from Brussels, isolating the country from its biggest trading partner, they said.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=brits%20to%20pull%20out%20of%20eu%20latest%20news&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fbusiness%2Feuropean%2Fbritish-business-leaders-warn-cameron-of-eu-pullout-side-effects-3347770.html&ei=FD7wUJ0zhraEB5WQgLAH&usg=AFQjCNGy180PPVJfNTK0D0IzPwwBVfQ3dw

Just saying, it wont be up to Cameron, what with still being a democracy. I would imagine we will vote, our eu overlords might insist we keep voting until we get the right answer but never the less it wont be camerons choice.

Fratton Fred

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Has Cameron the brains or intelligence to listen to the UK's business leaders or be able to man up to the Euro sceptic's.

In an open letter, the heads of some of Britain's biggest companies said Britain can't afford to quit a market of 500 million people that buys half of its exports.

Other countries in the 27-nation bloc would probably reject Cameron's attempts to claw back powers from Brussels, isolating the country from its biggest trading partner, they said.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=brits%20to%20pull%20out%20of%20eu%20latest%20news&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fbusiness%2Feuropean%2Fbritish-business-leaders-warn-cameron-of-eu-pullout-side-effects-3347770.html&ei=FD7wUJ0zhraEB5WQgLAH&usg=AFQjCNGy180PPVJfNTK0D0IzPwwBVfQ3dw

Cameron has Brains and Intelligence to burn. He knows exactly what he is doing.

Would the countries that want to prevent Britain clawing back powers like to stump up the £7.3Bn (net) that Britain contributes to the EU? Probably not.

It is positioning. Negotiation, that is all.

road_high

drdeadlift wrote: »

Does Ireland not have fisheries too?>

No we sold those down the river also to...ahem...the EU

whatstherush

gallag wrote: »

Its because we use the vote that people accuse us of just being anti eu, we are not anti eu, just pro British, would you agree with us using the vote to protect British interests?

Could have fooled me.

gallag wrote: »

Just saying, it wont be up to Cameron, what with still being a democracy. I would imagine we will vote, our eu overlords might insist we keep voting until we get the right answer but never the less it wont be camerons choice.

gallag

whatstherush wrote: »

Could have fooled me.

Flip, you've got me there. Eu overlords, damming stuff, of to vote ukip.

karma_

gallag wrote: »

WHAT WHAT WHAT, how dare you, fred- you tell the Queen, summerskin- you assemble the rest of the gang, ill shine the crown defence light into the air. Gb defence assembbbbbbbbbbleee.

It's funny because it's the exact same faces who mock those who openly take a bit of pride being Irish.

I do love these threads, I get 5% of my daily recommended dose of entertainment from them.

summerskin

karma_ wrote: »

It's funny because it's the exact same faces who mock those who openly take a bit of pride being Irish.

I do love these threads, I get 5% of my daily recommended dose of entertainment from them.

Nope, I have all the respect in the world for people who are proud of being Irish. Some of them though just can't let us be proud of being British.

I've no time though for those who, instead of being proud to be Irish, spend all their time being proud of not being British.

Dostoevsky

Somehow, I get the impression that the EU (450 million people, excluding Britain) will survive. Whether Britain (60 million) will survive in its current form is another matter. It's really a clash of political reality in 2013 and a country unable to come to terms with its diminished post-imperial position in 2013.

Whatever happens, it's time for Britain to "shít or get off the fence". Decision time, hopefully. Eternal sulkers with more than a massive chip on their shoulder about German post-war dominance are boring.

It's time for this 'fifth column' in the EU to be brave enough to follow its eurosceptic instincts and leave the EU, or else give up its dreams of imperial greatness and adopt to being an equal member of the EU.

summerskin

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Somehow, I get the impression that the EU (450 million people, excluding Britain) will survive. Whether Britain (60 million) will survive in its current form is another matter. It's really a clash of political reality in 2013 and a country unable to come to terms with its diminished post-imperial position in 2013.

Whatever happens, it's time for Britain to "shít or get off the fence". Decision time, hopefully. Eternal sulkers with more than a massive chip on their shoulder about German post-war dominance are boring.

It's time for this 'fifth column' in the EU to be brave enough to follow its eurosceptic instincts and leave the EU, or else give up its dreams of imperial greatness and adopt to being an equal member of the EU.

But why should we be "equal" with countries like Greece and Ireland who have minuscule economies in comparison? Why should countries such as these get an equal vote on economic issues when they are so small?

If the EU was just the UK, Germany and France I'd be a lot happier. Then we wouldn't have to prop up all the weaker nations such as the PIIGS and the Eastern European states.

Dostoevsky

summerskin wrote: »

But why should we be "equal" with countries like Greece and Ireland who have minuscule economies in comparison? Why should countries such as these get an equal vote on economic issues when they are so small?

If the EU was just the UK, Germany and France I'd be a lot happier. Then we wouldn't have to prop up all the weaker nations such as the PIIGS and the Eastern European states.

If France, Germany and other large countries can accept aspects of equality, indeed if they can formulate rules governing this aspect of the EU, then surely British people other than the eminently sensible British CBI can see the sense in this aspect of the EU, or at least accept it as a trade-off for the very obvious benefits which larger companies countries get from the EU.

This expectation that everything must be 'won' by the British side is unrealistic. Germany and France gave up much in order to create the EU, and they don't seem to be doing too badly from giving up "rights" such as the one which you're objecting to.

karma_

The sooner we have a unified federal European superstate the better.

summerskin

Dostoevsky wrote: »

If France, Germany and other large countries can accept aspects of equality, indeed if they can formulate rules governing this aspect of the EU, then surely British people other than the eminently sensible British CBI can see the sense in this aspect of the EU, or at least accept it as a trade-off for the very obvious benefits which larger companies countries get from the EU.

This expectation that everything must be 'won' by the British side is unrealistic. Germany and France gave up much in order to create the EU, and they don't seem to be doing too badly from giving up "rights" such as the one which you're objecting to.

Equality? Do you really think Ireland is an equal partner to either France or Germany???

Do you think either of those nations would allow their finances to be dictated to by other EU states? Of course not. However they WILL take the advantage to dictate to Ireland et al in order to protect themselves.

Dostoevsky

summerskin wrote: »

Equality? Do you really think Ireland is an equal partner to either France or Germany???

Do you think either of those nations would allow their finances to be dictated to by other EU states? Of course not. However they WILL take the advantage to dictate to Ireland et al in order to protect themselves.

There you go. So, if it's not about equality and if you accept that the bigger countries have more power, why on earth were you complaining about the PIIGS in your previous post? ("But why should we be "equal" with countries like Greece and Ireland who have minuscule economies in comparison?")


And, by the way, should you approach this discussion rationally rather than defensively you will find I said 'aspects of equality' in my previous post. In other words, there are areas - such as in national cultural or linguistic rights - where the British state will have to accept equality with both smaller and bigger states, but it will also have to defer to more powerful states like Germany on other aspects, as will the Irish and Greek states. Would you have as much problem with the EU if Britain were the most powerful country? I think your answer to that will tell much. With respect, it's time to move on.

3ndahalfof6

EUU that sounds nasty.

hatrickpatrick

keithclancy wrote: »

Hang on .... didn't Ireland, Greece and Italy to that to themselves because there wasn't fiscal controls in place to prevent it ?

Do what to themselves? If we hadn't bailed out the European banking system we wouldn't be in nearly as big a mess as we are now. Protecting Anglo was essentially bailing out the rest of Europe's banking system by proxy, we should have let it die and let everyone else clean up their own mess.

The EU should not be forcing us to repay senior bondholders, they are investors who chose to take a risk when they invested and should be allowed to lose just like any other gambler who backs the wrong horse.

hatrickpatrick

karma_ wrote: »

The sooner we have a unified federal European superstate the better.

How do you justify that? Do you want to have no voice as a voter? Do you want to have everything dictated to you without even the concept of being able to form a political group to fight it?

Doc Ruby

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The EU should not be forcing us to repay senior bondholders, they are investors who chose to take a risk when they invested and should be allowed to lose just like any other gambler who backs the wrong horse.

I for one would be very interested to find out the contents of Trichet's letter.

The most telling aspect of this letter is that it placed the future burden of bank bailouts on the Irish taxpayer – without any reference to any European institution or bank sharing any of the burden.
This is despite the latter's continued gamble on Ireland during the boom.
Lenihan, on the direct orders of Jean-Claude Trichet – and despite having saved Europe in 2008 by not allowing Anglo or Irish Nationwide to go to the wall – was at this point in 2010 having to accept the full cost of any future bailout. We later found out that this would be €24bn.
We know from Finance Minister Michael Noonan in early September that Lenihan was directly threatened by Trichet by way of letter that unless Ireland went into a bailout emergency funding from the ECB would be cut off.
Noonan said he had seen the "very direct" letter, which left Mr Lenihan with "little or no option" but to admit defeat.
Since leaving his post, Trichet has also insisted that this letter should remain confidential and not be released, despite the clamour in Ireland for its public disclosure. But whatever the contents of that letter, the contents of what we are publishing today represent the strongest supporting evidence as to why Ireland deserves a deal on its debt.

who the fug

gurramok wrote: »

Its amazing that when the UK is criticised that the usual suspects from there pop up in defence of the kingdom!

what has Saudi Arabia got to do with this

gurramok

summerskin wrote: »

Nope, I have all the respect in the world for people who are proud of being Irish. Some of them though just can't let us be proud of being British.

I've no time though for those who, instead of being proud to be Irish, spend all their time being proud of not being British.

As a resident here, you're not assimilating into being Irish yet?:p

who the fug

5 column, sums it up, just because one does not rush head long to the party with the drugs hookers and naked mods, without asking questions one is a 5 coumnsist


Ireland has always been about show me the money rather than a european ideal

MAR86

summerskin wrote: »

But why should we be "equal" with countries like Greece and Ireland who have minuscule economies in comparison? Why should countries such as these get an equal vote on economic issues when they are so small?

If the EU was just the UK, Germany and France I'd be a lot happier. Then we wouldn't have to prop up all the weaker nations such as the PIIGS and the Eastern European states.

I think the whole point on an united Europe was to confer equal rights to its citizens, this is why they came up with the European citizens idea!!! It doesn't matter if you are from a small or bigger country, we should all have a say, in theory!! Why should England have more rights or a better negotiation position, when we are supposedly all equal? The EU was not created to empower UK furthermore!

Fratton Fred

MAR86 wrote: »

I think the whole point on an united Europe was to confer equal rights to its citizens, this is why they came up with the European citizens idea!!! It doesn't matter if you are from a small or bigger country, we should all have a say, in theory!! Why should England have more rights or a better negotiation position, when we are supposedly all equal? The EU was not created to empower UK furthermore!

So will all tax payers pay an equal amount to the eu?

Busted Flat.

summerskin wrote: »

But why should we be "equal" with countries like Greece and Ireland who have minuscule economies in comparison? Why should countries such as these get an equal vote on economic issues when they are so small?

If the EU was just the UK, Germany and France I'd be a lot happier. Then we wouldn't have to prop up all the weaker nations such as the PIIGS and the Eastern European states.

That about sums up the brit idea of the EU.

MAR86

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So will all tax payers pay an equal amount to the eu?

The equality concept is not based on money in my opinion. Taxpayers don't pay the EU directly, they pay for services provided by their own state.

Some of the funds received by the EU return to the countries that have made the contributions, this is why you can see almost everywhere "Project sponsored with European funds". As far as I understand this, the European funds are distributed as per the share paid by each member state, but maybe i am wrong

K-9

Drumpot wrote: »

Why put Ireland in the same breath as Greece? They are in trouble for completely differant reasons.

We could of managed our fiscal deficit at a much lower cost but our European friends were not excited with the idea of German and French banks getting defaulted on by Irish banks whom they lent money to. They were also more concerned the knock on effects would have eu wide then in Ireland if our banks debts were not honoured.

Oddly enough UK and US institutions bore more exposure.

Globalism bears more responsibility for the mess we are in than any one thing or organistaion. We've embraced it as a country, activally encouraged it with low tax rates and an open economy, why moan when we have to bear the consequences of it?

K-9

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I for one would be very interested to find out the contents of Trichet's letter.

FF fecked up when guaranteeing the banks in 08, once a sovereign nation does that, it cannot backtrack easily.

Especially given the FF ineptitude after 08, FF sent a business plan outlining Anglo as a viable bank for the future, FF continuosly kept saying we've reached the bottom and repeatedly had to pump more money into Irish banks, FF ineptitude frontloaded debt payments onto one particular month, leaving a small sovereign country with insurmountable debt payments in one month, FF set up NAMA and dithered over it, it could have worked if they hadn't let the banks dictate terms, FF left the ECB has a funding lifeline for our whole banking system, FF ignored native Irish industry and encouraged a dependence on multi-nationals and construction, FF offered mortage interest relief on €1 Million mortgages, I could go on.

From somebody who voted FF in the past and is god smacked at their ineptitude, I cannot fathom how harsh critics of FF for decades, put the blame on the ECB for the mess we are in. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

As for the UK, the markets would go into turmoil originally, but that's what markets do, many stand to gain a fortune over predicting it, the EU will soldier on and get over it, the UK the same. Ireland is a significant export market, one of their biggest, though we steal shell companies from them with our generous tax rules.

London is a huge financial market but we could position ourselves as a huge EU financial city, we've got our fair share of huge financial trading houses in the IFSC in the past, a couple of big German banks failed at a big cost to German taxpayers but we soldier on, sending John Bruton out to Dubai to advertsie our advantages.

The UK car inustry is a great example, a shining example in the 50's, the UK now prides itself on how many BMW imports it has, yet it doesn't have a car building industry without foreign investment.

TL:DR, this isn't the 30's and Dev's Economic War. The UK, the EU and Ireland would get over it, adjust for the times and get on with it.

Busted Flat.

Ouch. Angie sticks the boot in.

"David Cameron's entire European strategy has been thrown into doubt less than two weeks before his landmark speech on the European Union as Germany backs away from initiating negotiations that would give Britain a chance to claw back some powers from the EU.
"


http://search.mywebsearch.com/mywebsearch/redirect.jhtml?searchfor=Cameron%27s+EU+strategy+falters+as+Merkel+backtracks+on+treaty+renegotiation&cb=ZU&n=77ed4ba6&qid=3e01b7e6d53b48389cab6a445c2697ee&ptb=A6562BBA-80D8-46C4-9B83-9FA02F09D287&id=ZUchr999YYie&pg=GGmain&ptnrS=ZUchr999YYie&action=pick&ss=sub&pn=1&st=ctxt&qs=&pr=GG&tpr=&redirect=mPWsrdz9heamc8iHEhldEbtSlIJpP1Q23uPllbkLSm2HTxt05yfhy%2F%2FGlIiB6VEf00SY7YS5FXeZahVroSpeJhWK37SD%2BFRZ8pqKb3hMPaxCdbY1cU%2FEuBaleWrMONhmaEExVUiJBKLaPBCIL0SCCA%3D%3D&ord=0&ct=AR&

RossyG

Busted Flat. wrote: »

That about sums up the brit idea of the EU.

I think that sentence says a lot about you.

Doc Ruby

K-9 wrote: »

From somebody who voted FF in the past and is god smacked at their ineptitude, I cannot fathom how harsh critics of FF for decades, put the blame on the ECB for the mess we are in. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Trichet by all accounts acted way beyond the legal remit of the ECB and undertook to threaten a sovereign government by private letter in order to protect his own interests, which is at the very minimum a massive abuse of power.

So I'd say we would probably have legal recourse to re-examine our commitments given the duress placed upon political representatives.

Don't think that lets FF off the hook either mind you.

Busted Flat.

Crikey is the little guy backing down, just seen this.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BAcO51QCMAAvXgG.jpg

Hopefully these are just extracting the urine, and are not just blatant antibrits.

mise_me_fein3

MadsL wrote: »

Err...Wut? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949



Delusional much?
http://blog.gist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/silicon-valleys-of-the-world.png

What Ireland has is the tax shelter of Europe and it really isn't the same thing.

That was a nice picture...No, Ireland has been the place for major IT companies to set up in the past decade or more. Yes, the tax rate helps a lot....are you saying if we ever left the EU we would somehow lose the ability to set our own tax rates? If anything we would have more freedom.


Europe does not really respect us. If we vote "no" in a referendum they simply make us vote again until we vote yes.

That's BS to me. We have links with other countries now. Not like when we joined and we had to wait for the UK to join. A country like Ireland would be better now outside the EU. It was not always like that but I'd rather be Iceland than Ireland now

Franticfrank

I think it's a difficult question. I'd go with the line of thought of bigger countries having a better say in how things are run...though on the other hand, if it's really a 'union', everyone should have an equal say. Other countries would be less interested in joining up if they had little or no influence in comparison to the bigger players. If you look at statistics, the larger countries like Germany generally support more EU authority over national budgets, but smaller countries (and not surprisingly, the UK) are more opposed.

I think the whole point on an united Europe was to confer equal rights to its citizens, this is why they came up with the European citizens idea!!! It doesn't matter if you are from a small or bigger country, we should all have a say, in theory!! Why should England have more rights or a better negotiation position, when we are supposedly all equal? The EU was not created to empower UK furthermore!

I think everything has to be run in this way, otherwise dissatisfaction will tear the concept apart.

quikquest

mise_me_fein3 wrote: »

Europe does not really respect us. If we vote "no" in a referendum they simply make us vote again until we vote yes.

Ummm I could bet my life on it that it wasn't the EU who made us vote again. It was our old leader who had no respect for us (or by looking at him, himself) and wanted to impress the EU so he could get a little pat on the head and be the good boy.

I certainly wouldn't blame the EU. Unfortunately it seems that all our policitions like to get the pat on the head and told their they good boy of the classs. Maybe this is a reason why ex teachers shouldn't be allowed in the Dail... its in their mentality to have a star pupil and when it comes the EU they want to be that :P

Fratton Fred

MAR86 wrote: »

The equality concept is not based on money in my opinion. Taxpayers don't pay the EU directly, they pay for services provided by their own state.

Some of the funds received by the EU return to the countries that have made the contributions, this is why you can see almost everywhere "Project sponsored with European funds". As far as I understand this, the European funds are distributed as per the share paid by each member state, but maybe i am wrong

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union


The UK contributes €180 per person per year, but receives €105 per person in funding. A net contribution of €75 per person per year.

Ireland (for the sake of example) contributes €249 per person and receives €358 per person in funding. a net beneficiary to the tune of €109 per person per year.

If you were a British tax payer, would you be happy with that? bearing in mind the UK is going through its own austerity at the moment.

whatstherush

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union


The UK contributes €180 per person per year, but receives €105 per person in funding. A net contribution of €75 per person per year.

Ireland (for the sake of example) contributes €249 per person and receives €358 per person in funding. a net beneficiary to the tune of €109 per person per year.

If you were a British tax payer, would you be happy with that? bearing in mind the UK is going through its own austerity at the moment.

As percentage of UK total expenditure is it really that much though?
Roughly speaking you have a pop of 60m x €75(say £60 sterling) giving a net cost of £3.6 bn to British tax payer. Considering that UK budgeted expenditure for 2012 was £683 bn, its working out a 0.5% of UK annual expenditure.

As a comparison, Irish expenditure on foreign aid last year was €639m. With a total expenditure of €56.2 bn, it was about 1.0% of Irish annual expenditure.

Fratton Fred

whatstherush wrote: »

As percentage of UK total expenditure is it really that much though?
Roughly speaking you have a pop of 60m x €75(say £60 sterling) giving a net cost of £3.6 bn to British tax payer. Considering that UK budgeted expenditure for 2012 was £683 bn, its working out a 0.5% of UK annual expenditure.

As a comparison, Irish expenditure on foreign aid last year was €639m. With a total expenditure of €56.2 bn, it was about 1.0% of Irish annual expenditure.

In addition to the EU, Britain also gives over £8bn in foreign aid

Dostoevsky

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union


The UK contributes €180 per person per year, but receives €105 per person in funding. A net contribution of €75 per person per year.

Ireland (for the sake of example) contributes €249 per person and receives €358 per person in funding. a net beneficiary to the tune of €109 per person per year.

If you were a British tax payer, would you be happy with that? bearing in mind the UK is going through its own austerity at the moment.

In fairness, you're not telling the other side of the story, namely the enormous profits made by British (and German, French etc) firms by virtue of EU membership. None of these "donor" countries are in the EU to give money away. Obviously.

Anyway....

Yet France, to take another example from your above link, contributes €18,050.84 to the EU budget. The UK, with a similar population, contributes €11,273.41 to the EU budget. The French contribution per person, according to your Guardian link is: €277.5. The UK contribution per person, according to your link, is: €180.38. The French receive per person €202.35; The British receive per person: €105.12. According to your link, EU membership costs the French per person €75.15 cent; it costs the British €75.26 per person.

Is all this British nationalism worth 11 cent per person, particularly given the number of firms based in Britain who have favourable trade terms by virtue of EU membership, terms which bring tens of billions back to the British economy?

MAR86

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union


The UK contributes €180 per person per year, but receives €105 per person in funding. A net contribution of €75 per person per year.

Ireland (for the sake of example) contributes €249 per person and receives €358 per person in funding. a net beneficiary to the tune of €109 per person per year.

If you were a British tax payer, would you be happy with that? bearing in mind the UK is going through its own austerity at the moment.

Thanks for the info, indeed very interesting, but I maintain my opinion, the whole scope of the EU was to bring the member states at the same level, same salaries, same quality of living, same conditions across the community. This is also why the single currency was introduced, to create the same play field for everyone. This is my honest opinion, I am not saying that EU has achieved all those goals, but I do think that the whole community thing will be prove to be beneficial in the long term.

Fratton Fred

MAR86 wrote: »

Thanks for the info, indeed very interesting, but I maintain my opinion, the whole scope of the EU was to bring the member states at the same level, same salaries, same quality of living, same conditions across the community. This is also why the single currency was introduced, to create the same play field for everyone. This is my honest opinion, I am not saying that EU has achieved all those goals, but I do think that the whole community thing will be prove to be beneficial in the long term.

Look, I am relatively pro EU, so I am playing devils advocate here to an extent.

If you are a British Tax payer, you see that your government is tightening the purse strings at the moment, to help pay for a huge deficit. Families with more than £60k income are losing family allowance for example. but, a quick look West will see a country that over the last 20 years has been the net beneficiary of €35bn in eu handouts and is currently the recipient of IMF/ECB money, part of which is again funded by British tax payers.

Compare the civil service bill of Ireland and the UK. Compare the wages of the MP/TDs and in particular the Prime Minister/Taoiseach.

There are a number of companies that have up sticks and left the UK, to take advantage of Irish tax laws and various incentives, Google, for example, had a UK turnover of £2.5bn last year, but paid HMRC only £3m in tax, thanks to a nice little arrangement where it channels all it's profits through Ireland.

Take a look at Greece. One of the largest beneficiaries of the ERDF, yet the people in Greece leave college at 23, retire on hefty pensions at 50 and in between don't bother paying any tax. If you are a British tax payer, would you consider this a worthy way of spending a fund that is designed to create an even standard of living?