Buying UHF Aerials needed for Saorview

budgemook

Peter Rhea wrote: »

What part of Dublin?

'Can be received' & 'worth going to the trouble' are 2 different things. A satellite dish is a more sensible proposition than the kind of outdoor terrestrial aerial array you might need. And satellite signals don't suffer weather-related interference from unwanted transmissions on the same channel, like happens with terrestrial, especially out-of-area reception.

Stoneybatter

zg3409

UK channels are only broadcast by Satellite and from sites in Northern Ireland and Wales. In order to get a reliable signal, you need to be in a good location to pick up a signal from hundreds of miles away. Normally it is not reliable to try get a signal more than 60 miles away, especially if more reliable and more channels are available through a dish, hence recommending using a dish for UK channels in Dublin. In the past their was no free satellite option, so people has to make do.

jjf1974

zg3409 wrote: »

There are various issues

1) People buy the wrong box, for example a Saorview/Freeview only TV, when they need a combo box

2) If the system stops working, the installer gets called, when the problem may be the box, which they have nothing to do with. If the installer supplied the box they will know the common problems people have, and can provide support over the phone.

3) It can take more than an hour to program a box, unless the installer provides a box that is pre-programmed

4) The installer can explain the pro's and con's of cheaper and more expensive boxes and demo them, meaning you could end up with a box that cannot do series link, when you actually want a box that can do this, but you may not know that beforehand.

You should take the advice of professionals, they have experience and know tricks of the trade. For example people buy the wrong size doors and then ask a carpenter to fit them.

You should be getting at least a years warrenty for the installation and box.

There are other people that buy cheap aerials in Lidl that they want put up.These aerials blow away in the first puff of wind but they think they are great because they are cheap.

winston_1

zg3409 wrote: »

UK channels are only broadcast by Satellite and from sites in Northern Ireland and Wales.

UK channels are broadcast from sites all over the UK, and also from Isles of Man, Jersey, and Guernsey. However I realise you mean only NI and Wales are receivable in Ireland.

Digifriendly

winston_1 wrote: »

UK channels are broadcast from sites all over the UK, and also from Isles of Man, Jersey, and Guernsey. However I realise you mean only NI and Wales are receivable in Ireland.

Out of interest can transmitters in NW England not be picked up in parts of ROI? I know that there are aerials along South Down coast aimed across the Irish Sea.

zg3409

Digifriendly wrote: »

Out of interest can transmitters in NW England not be picked up in parts of ROI? I know that there are aerials along South Down coast aimed across the Irish Sea.

Well in practice most installers would not recommend attempting this, when a reliable satellite option exists. For those in the UK who cannot get Saorview via a dish, then yes it may work in some locations. Due to the curvature of the earth the further away the less the signal, meaning only mountain top transmitters with high power would be reasonably reliable.

I have received signals from Northern Ireland in Dublin, but I would not recommend people to do it for reliable TV viewing. In the past there was no Satellite option, and so Dublin was littered with masts up to 20 metres high on rooftops pointed North and Eastwards.

cerastes

Invincible wrote: »

Yes, you need an aerial for saorview.
Some areas that cannot receive saorview are offered saorsat through a dish system.
Some Sony sets also have sat connection built in, W653 has that I know of.

Ive recently gotten a combi receiver, I can get the FTA channels but I need to fit an aerial, Ive checked the aerial local (as local as that is) to me and it looks like I require a "white" horizontal polarity aerial.

http://www.tvtrade.ie/black-wideband-uhf-aerial.html

Excuse my ignorance but is the horizontal polarity a reference to the orientation/fitting of the aerial, ie horizontally?
Also, I had intended to attach the aerial to the mounting tube which my dish (ex sky) is attached to and point it in the direction according to Saorview's website says.
The existing dish is about the height of the upstairs floor, which means my aerial definitely wont be ina line of sight as there are buildings in the way, will this affect the UHF signal? Im aware of someone else that has an aerial mounted higher (at the eaves) but there are also buildings in the way, no problems with reception there, but they are nearer the transmitting antenna than I am. Even if I went higher to the eaves with the aerial placement, it would still be blocked by similar height buildings opposite me anyway. I presume higher is better.

http://www.tvtrade.ie/tv-and-radio-aerials/uhf-aerials.html

Going by the information from the first link, the only aerials I should use are the
wideband UHF aerial (white)
or
wideband UHF aerial (higher gain)

Im wondering if an aerial is necessary or if I can tune my receiver to saorsat instead or are there disadvantages to this?
although I need to check if saorsat is from the same satellite, as my sky dish is pointing to (astra2??)

edit, Ive just checked and it does look like the satellite is not at 28E, but in another direction (elevation also?) so it seems an aerial would be a cheaper option for getting saorsignal.

Peter Rhea

Digifriendly wrote: »

I know that there are aerials along South Down coast aimed across the Irish Sea.

Isle of Man transmitters might be usable there. (Think it works the opposite direction with Divis). Maybe Cambret Hill in SW Scotland too. Caldbeck (Cumbria) has co-channel issues with Divis.

Peter Rhea

cerastes wrote: »

Ive just checked and it does look like the satellite is not at 28E, but in another direction (elevation also?) so it seems an aerial would be a cheaper option for getting saorsignal.

In Dublin city? Shouldn't be a problem, being a relatively small, flat area, served by a transmitter on top of a mountain.

As you've noticed yourself though, you need to take the 'terrain' of urban clutter into account.

cerastes

Peter Rhea wrote: »

In Dublin city? Shouldn't be a problem, being a relatively small, flat area, served by a transmitter on top of a mountain.

As you've noticed yourself though, you need to take the 'terrain' of urban clutter into account.

Im wondering if I need to get an aerial mounted on the chimney, only way of getting above buildings, even then, I prefer not to mount anything on the chimney, and I know someone that has an aerial at eaves level and it works, so Im wondering if it will work lower too, I read UHF was line of sight but thinking the strenght of the signal may offset this? or how is the person I know of getting a signal through buildings?

The Cush

cerastes wrote: »

Ive recently gotten a combi receiver, I can get the FTA channels but I need to fit an aerial, Ive checked the aerial local (as local as that is) to me and it looks like I require a "white" horizontal polarity aerial.

http://www.tvtrade.ie/black-wideband-uhf-aerial.html

Excuse my ignorance but is the horizontal polarity a reference to the orientation/fitting of the aerial, ie horizontally?
Also, I had intended to attach the aerial to the mounting tube which my dish (ex sky) is attached to and point it in the direction according to Saorview's website says.
The existing dish is about the height of the upstairs floor, which means my aerial definitely wont be ina line of sight as there are buildings in the way, will this affect the UHF signal? Im aware of someone else that has an aerial mounted higher (at the eaves) but there are also buildings in the way, no problems with reception there, but they are nearer the transmitting antenna than I am. Even if I went higher to the eaves with the aerial placement, it would still be blocked by similar height buildings opposite me anyway. I presume higher is better.

Which transmitter does the Saorview coverage checker recomend for you, Three Rock or Kippure? The wideband (white tip) aerial will cover both.

I installed a wideband aerial for my sister in Lucan a while back, mounted it on the satellite dish pole pointing at Three Rock but receiving a better signal from Kippure. Both fitted at the rear of the house at first floor level, no problems since. Higher would be better but test it on the sat pole first.

Polarisation is how the aerial's director bars are oriented to match the signal transmited from your local transmitter.

cerastes

The Cush wrote: »

Which transmitter does the Saorview coverage checker recomend for you, Three Rock or Kippure? The wideband (white tip) aerial will cover both.

I installed a wideband aerial for my sister in Lucan a while back, mounted it on the satellite dish pole pointing at Three Rock but receiving a better signal from Kippure. Both fitted at the rear of the house at first floor level, no problems since. Higher would be better but test it on the sat pole first.

Polarisation is how the aerial's director bars are oriented to match the signal transmited from your local transmitter.

Kippure, Im suprised how far it is away
Theres not much in the price but it looks like the 9.95 aerial would cover my requirement, regarding its colour type (freq range I think)

The Cush

cerastes wrote: »

Kippure, Im suprised how far it is away
Theres not much in the price but it looks like the 9.95 aerial would cover my requirement, regarding its colour type (freq range I think)

I use the Mullaghanish transmitter which is about 60 miles away, Woodcock Hill is about 20 miles away but reception is unrealiable due to the terrain.

The colour coding on aerials is a just a quick way to identify the aerial's group (frequency range), the others are Group A (red), Group B (yellow) etc., see the list of groups and their ranges and colours here (last page).

The new wideband UHF 21-60 (white tip) has replaced the old wideband UHF 21-69 (black tip) aerial since some of the old TV frequencies (UHF 61-69) have been sold off for mobile 4G services.

cerastes

The Cush wrote: »

I use the Mullaghanish transmitter which is about 60 miles away, Woodcock Hill is about 20 miles away but reception is unrealiable due to the terrain.

The colour coding on aerials is a just a quick way to identify the aerial's group (frequency range), the others are Group A (red), Group B (yellow) etc., see the list of groups and their ranges and colours here (last page).

The new wideband UHF 21-60 (white tip) has replaced the old wideband UHF 21-69 (black tip) aerial since some of the old TV frequencies (UHF 61-69) have been sold off for mobile 4G services.

The tvtrade site has a lot of the info, cant recal which thread as Ive posted in a few now, someone replied with links for tvtrade and satworld. The first one is fairly informative, I saw a mention under the wideband aerial saying some frequencies were gone and it has info.
Few things I still wasnt sure about though

winston_1

You should really use the correct group aerial for the transmitter, not wideband. Grouped aerials give better performance for the same size. This is especially true for group A areas such as ThreeRock.

The Cush

winston_1 wrote: »

You should really use the correct group aerial for the transmitter, not wideband.

The new reduced-band Group T (white-tip) wideband aerial cerastes links to above is now the correct group aerial for Kippure in the LTE age.

cerastes

The Cush wrote: »

The new reduced-band Group T (white-tip) wideband aerial cerastes links to above is now the correct group aerial for Kippure in the LTE age.

I linked two, which one are you saying is better, they both say they have white tip, and both exclude LTE broadband
this
http://www.tvtrade.ie/black-wide-band-uhf-aerial.html
or this
http://www.tvtrade.ie/black-wideband-uhf-aerial.html

both seem to be acceptable and have very similar specifications

winston_1

Of those two the first is a cheap contract aerial, the reflector is far too small to work properly as a wideband. The second looks reasonable.

The correct grouped aerial for Kippure is the new group H. Sadly they are difficult to find. As I previously you should really use the correct group for the transmitter, though for higher channels it is not so important. Wide bands are for occasional special conditions where the muxes are widely spaced, not applicable in Ireland.

The Cush

cerastes wrote: »

I linked two, which one are you saying is better, they both say they have white tip, and both exclude LTE broadband
this
http://www.tvtrade.ie/black-wide-band-uhf-aerial.html

both seem to be acceptable and have very similar specifications

The first one you linked to, the standard contract aerial, is OK for Dublin. Reception will of course depend an where you mount the aerial and if the buildings you mentioned earlier have any effect on the signal.

The Cush

winston_1 wrote: »

The correct grouped aerial for Kippure is the new group H. Sadly they are difficult to find. .

Group H was one of the suggested new LTE-ready aerial groups but I haven't come across them since. The CAI only refer to Groups A and T.

Blake Aerials don't mention Group H, this is what they say on their site.

Use LTE CAI Benchmarked Aerials and correct New Groups – T and A

CAI list of benchmarket Group T aerials - http://www.cai.org.uk/downloadables/finish/37-aerial-benchmarking/521-cai-aerial-benchmark-list




CAI Aerial Groups:
GROUP A: Minimum 470 MHz Maximum 606 MHz, Centre frequency 538 MHz.
GROUP B: Minimum 582 MHz Maximum 734 MHz, Centre frequency 658 MHz.
GROUP CD: Minimum 686 MHz Maximum 854 MHz, Centre frequency 770 MHz.
GROUP E: Minimum 582 MHz Maximum 854 MHz, Centre frequency 718 MHz.
GROUP K: Minimum 470 MHz Maximum 694 MHz, Centre frequency 582 MHz
GROUP T: Minimum 470 MHz Maximum 790MHz, Centre frequency 630MHz
GROUP W (Wideband): Minimum 470 MHz Maximum 854 MHz, Centre frequency 658MHz.

Standard 1 Aerial: (Highest Standard)
Standard 2 Aerial: (Intermediate Standard)
Standard 3 Aerial: (Minimum Accepted Standard)
Standard 4 Aerial: (Log periodic aerial Standard)
Standard F Aerial: (LTE) (Fringe)
Standard S Aerial: (LTE) (Standard)

winston_1

The Cush wrote: »

The first one you linked to, the standard contract aerial, is OK for Dublin. Reception will of course depend an where you mount the aerial and if the buildings you mentioned earlier have any effect on the signal.

The question was "which one is better?" And the correct answer is the second one.

For the sake of €5 don't get the cheap nasty contract type.

The Cush

winston_1 wrote: »

The question was "which one is better?" And the correct answer is the second one.

For the sake of €5 don't get the cheap nasty contract type.

I fitted a cheap, nasty contract aerial in Lucan a while ago, mounted at first floor level on the same pole as the 60cm dish, receiving both Three Rock and Kippure. All nice and compact for that height and no reported problems since.

winston_1

Wait till the wind blows off the reflector. Or perhaps you will get interference due to lack of a balun.

jjf1974

winston_1 wrote: »

Wait till the wind blows off the reflector. Or perhaps you will get interference due to lack of a balun.

A couple of good cable ties around the reflector and it will go nowhere.

Peter Rhea

And those Blake 'contract' aerials are fitted with baluns: http://www.blake-uk.com/cr-contract-freeview-tv-aerial/cr10-a-b-cd-e-k-t-wb.html

winston_1

jjf1974 wrote: »

A couple of good cable ties around the reflector and it will go nowhere.

I don't believe what I am reading. A reflector hanging on cable ties is not going to be doing its job.

Aerials should not have to be held together with cable ties!

The Cush

winston_1 wrote: »

Wait till the wind blows off the reflector. Or perhaps you will get interference due to lack of a balun.

Going on 2 years now reflector still there and no interference problems.

cerastes

winston_1 wrote: »

Of those two the first is a cheap contract aerial, the reflector is far too small to work properly as a wideband. The second looks reasonable.

The correct grouped aerial for Kippure is the new group H. Sadly they are difficult to find. As I previously you should really use the correct group for the transmitter, though for higher channels it is not so important. Wide bands are for occasional special conditions where the muxes are widely spaced, not applicable in Ireland.

I haven't seen any aerials for sale marked group H
only aerials A, B C-D

any links (for comparison)

Peter Rhea

Just get one of the new wideband types that don't include the LTE spectrum. (Aka group T.)

You might find you get a better signal from Three Rock, no matter what the checker says, & you want an aerial with some response at the lower end of the band.

The log-periodic type has a fairly even response across the band.

Vico1612

Sorry for the noob question but I have a question about Polarization .
I read the reply a few posts back explaining Polarization so checked my aerial which i fitted last week end.
My aerial is pointing to Clermont Carn as per the saorview checker instructions [ I'm in balbriggan ] but I've installed my aerial horizontally instead of vertically
I'm getting 100% signal quality and 71 signal strength on my philips TV which has built in saorview tuner .
But am wondering if i should re-position the aerial and fit it vertically .
What benefit would I see ?

My neighbor told me that he can pick up the channels from NI , whereas I can't , just wondering if my installation has to do with it .

Thanks again for your replies.

winston_1

If Clermonrt Carn uses vertical polarisation your aerial should be too. Your gain will increase by about 25dB.

Peter Rhea

Vico1612 wrote: »

My aerial is pointing to Clermont Carn as per the saorview checker instructions [ I'm in balbriggan ] but I've installed my aerial horizontally instead of vertically
I'm getting 100% signal quality and 71 signal strength on my philips TV which has built in saorview tuner .
But am wondering if i should re-position the aerial and fit it vertically .
What benefit would I see ?

My neighbor told me that he can pick up the channels from NI , whereas I can't , just wondering if my installation has to do with it ..

You should always mount your receiving aerial with the same polarisation as the transmitting aerial.

Your neighbour is probably getting the NI services from Kilkeel, & it is vertically polarised too but, much lower power than Clermont.

Just out of interest, which UHF channels are you Saorview services appearing on?

zg3409

Vico1612 wrote: »

My neighbor told me that he can pick up the channels from NI , whereas I can't , just wondering if my installation has to do with it .

Thanks again for your replies.

You would probably need a professionally installed aerial as high up as possible with a special masthead amplifier designed for long range reception. It's probably not a diy job and would be most reliable if installed by a professional who has the gear to align and test it.

The most reliable way to get UK channels is via a dish and you get more channels too. Most installers around balbriggan probably just put up a dish for UK channels as it would give more channels and be more reliable.

Vico1612

Peter Rhea wrote: »

You should always mount your receiving aerial with the same polarisation as the transmitting aerial.

Your neighbour is probably getting the NI services from Kilkeel, & it is vertically polarised too but, much lower power than Clermont.

Just out of interest, which UHF channels are you Saorview services appearing on?

Thanks for your reply.
Not too sure how to check UHF channels ... I see RTE1HD - 754MHz - 64-QAM

Vico1612

zg3409 wrote: »

You would probably need a professionally installed aerial as high up as possible with a special masthead amplifier designed for long range reception. It's probably not a diy job and would be most reliable if installed by a professional who has the gear to align and test it.

The most reliable way to get UK channels is via a dish and you get more channels too. Most installers around balbriggan probably just put up a dish for UK channels as it would give more channels and be more reliable.

Thanks for your reply.
I still have my Sky dish up so I'll probably get a combi box long term ...

lucernarian

In Balbriggan, Kilkeel will nearly certainly be the strongest source of UK TV reception. Having the aerial vertically polarised will substantially improve your chances of receiving Freeview (Lite) at least.

budgemook

I realise this is a UHF forum but conversation has drifted to satellite dishes - is there a dish/box combo that would get you Irish channels as well as English ones.

Would be nice not to have to have an aerial cluttering up the house for saorview.

zg3409

budgemook wrote: »

I realise this is a UHF forum but conversation has drifted to satellite dishes - is there a dish/box combo that would get you Irish channels as well as English ones.

Would be nice not to have to have an aerial cluttering up the house for saorview.

Irish channels are only available by satellite on a pay service from Sky. They are encrypted and require a decoder. They are free and unencrypted via an aerial on Saorview. A combo box has a connection for an aerial and a dish. It needs an aerial and a dish.

The Cush

Vico1612 wrote: »

Not too sure how to check UHF channels ... I see RTE1HD - 754MHz - 64-QAM

RTÉ1 HD is on Mux2, UHF Ch.56 (754MHz) from Clermont Carn - http://www.2rn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/2RN-DTT-Television-Transmission-Network-Nov-2013.pdf

Current Saorview multiplex line-up
Multiplex 1

LCN

|

Channel

||
249*|SSU|data channel||
11|no channel name (RTÉ 1 simulcast)|SD|temporary, going at the end of April
02|RTÉ Two|HD|
03|TV3|SD|
04|TG4|SD|
05|3e|SD|
06|RTÉ News Now|SD|
17|no channel name (RTÉ Junior simulcast**)|SD|temporary, going at the end of April
18|no channel name (RTÉ1 +1 simulcast**)|SD|temporary, going at the end of April
200|RTÉ Radio 1|Radio|
201|RTÉ Radio 1 Extra|Radio|
202|RTÉ 2FM|Radio|
203|RTÉ Lyric FM|Radio|
204|RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta|Radio|
205|RTÉ Pulse|Radio|
206|RTÉ 2XM|Radio
207*|(not used)||previously RTÉ Choice
208|RTÉ Gold|Radio|
209|RTÉ Junior/RTÉ Chill|Radio

Multiplex 2

LCN

|

Channel

||
250*|SSU|data channel|
01|RTÉ One|HD|
12*|(no channel name/testcard)|HD|
13*|(no channel name/testcard)|SD|RTÉ Lyric FM audio
14*|(no channel name/testcard)|HD|TG4 subtitles and teletext previously
15*|(no channel name/testcard)|SD|RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta audio
16|(not used)||
07|RTÉ Junior**|SD|
08|RTÉ One +1**|SD|
211-212*|(no radio channel names)|Radio|no audio
213*|(no radio channel name)|Radio|RTÉ Lyric FM audio
214*|(no radio channel name)|Radio|RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta audio
215-217*|(no radio channel names)|Radio|no audio
218-219*|(no radio channel name)|Radio|RTÉ Gold audio
220*|(no radio channel name)|Radio|no audio

* Hidden on Saorview receivers but can be selected by entering the channel no. via the remote control
** RTÉ Junior 0700-1845 approx / RTÉ One +1 1900-0100/0200 approx. Timesharing

Peter Rhea

Vico1612 wrote: »

... I see RTE1HD - 754MHz

Yeah, as already mentioned that's definitely Clermont Carn, so must be a good strong signal if it's working well with the wrong polarisation.

For reliable Freeview reception, Kilkeel is too low powered, too far away & there are other transmitters using the same frequencies that will cause interference. I'd go with satellite, as was also mentioned above.

lucernarian

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Yeah, as already mentioned that's definitely Clermont Carn, so must be a good strong signal if it's working well with the wrong polarisation.

For reliable Freeview reception, Kilkeel is too low powered, too far away & there are other transmitters using the same frequencies that will cause interference. I'd go with satellite, as was also mentioned above.

Certainly no less reliable than what was there for analogue, and that must have been pretty reliable for there to have been no pre-broadband cable rollout whatsoever in Balbriggan and the modest number of MMDS aerials.

Having said that, a decent Freesat installation will offer unrivalled reliability and no need to worry about when the odd high pressure anticyclone will park itself over Ireland and muck with reception!

Peter Rhea

Interference to digital is far more annoying though. A lot of people seemed to accept occasionally awful analogue pictures once they thought it was 'just the weather' to blame.

lucernarian

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Interference to digital is far more annoying though. A lot of people seemed to accept occasionally awful analogue pictures once they thought it was 'just the weather' to blame.

Casting my mind back to analogue Kilkeel reception, the problems were not really intermittent or "borderline" in the I-can-only-kinda-load-teletext-pages sense but that one could go from enjoying excellent reception to having none in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes and that this would remain the case for hours or even days in extreme examples. I remember this happening while I was watching the World Snooker Championship semi-final the last time Ken Doherty reached the semis. Took literally 2 minutes for reception to reach nothing but snow.

Granted, there would also be moments where reception would probably compare to the digital cliff levels for DVB-T but atmospheric-induced reception problems were quite dramatic and "all or nothing".

winston_1

budgemook wrote: »

I realise this is a UHF forum but conversation has drifted to satellite dishes - is there a dish/box combo that would get you Irish channels as well as English ones.

Would be nice not to have to have an aerial cluttering up the house for saorview.

Saorsat.

The Cush

winston_1 wrote: »

Saorsat.

No TV3/3e on Saorsat - http://www.saorview.ie/about-saorview/saorsat/

If you can receive SAORVIEW there is no advantage in getting SAORSAT over SAORVIEW.

RTÉNL recommends that each home should exhaust all options for receiving SAORVIEW before reverting to SAORSAT. Even if you were previously unable to receive analogue television through an aerial it is recommended that you investigate getting SAORVIEW first, as its coverage exceeds analogue terrestrial television coverage in many areas.

budgemook

.

budgemook

winston_1 wrote: »

Saorsat.

Two dishes so is it!?

The Cush

budgemook wrote: »

Two dishes so is it!?

One dish is possible with 2 LNBs, a professional installer should be able to set it up.

Peter Rhea

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Casting my mind back to analogue Kilkeel reception, the problems were not really intermittent or "borderline" in the I-can-only-kinda-load-teletext-pages sense but that one could go from enjoying excellent reception to having none in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes

True, I remember similar in a house near me, where the only usable RTE was from Kippure, 80 miles away. Most of the time it was mediocre but watchable (with working teletext) but sometimes it would follow that pattern of fading in & out from practically perfect to practically nothing, in the space of a few minutes. So yes, pretty unwatchable, on a par with digital dropouts.

This wouldn't be due to co-channel interference, though.

winston_1

The Cush wrote: »

No TV3/3e on Saorsat - http://www.saorview.ie/about-saorview/saorsat/

I find the concept of Saorsat a waste of money for 2% of the population. Why not make the Irish channels on 28E free to view for Irish viewers? Either give cards away to TV licence holders or sell them for a nominal €25 in a similar way to FTV cards in the UK?