David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

SoulandForm

Given that he is from an Ulster Protestant background, hardly sympathetic to militant Republicanism and that this is appearing in a mainstream British newspaper I hope that those who have expressed veiled sympathy for the protesters or criticized the Alliance Party for reaching the compromise it did with Nationalism and Republicanism will pay attention to what he has to say.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/these-belfast-riots-arent-over-the-flag--but-the-creation-of-a-fairer-society-8444651.html

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Given that he is from an Ulster Protestant background, hardly sympathetic to militant Republicanism and that this is appearing in a mainstream British newspaper I hope that those who have expressed veiled sympathy for the protesters or criticized the Alliance Party for reaching the compromise it did with Nationalism and Republicanism will pay attention to what he has to say.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/these-belfast-riots-arent-over-the-flag--but-the-creation-of-a-fairer-society-8444651.html

So because he's a Protestant from Northern Ireland that automatically makes him an authority on the subject. Why doesn't he come down to the area I live in and speak to the employed women behind the protest, these women that are not on drugs or any other stereotypical social problem journalists like to attribute to my community.

FTA69

junder wrote: »

So because he's a Protestant from Northern Ireland that automatically makes him an authority on the subject. Why doesn't he come down to the area I live in and speak to the employed women behind the protest, these women that are not on drugs or any other stereotypical social problem journalists like to attribute to my community.

Northern Ireland remains a part of the United Kingdom, that's not in any danger whatsoever. The fact Loyalists would riot for days over something that's largely a non-issue indicates the ridiculous seige-mentality that Loyalism has more than anything else.

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

So because he's a Protestant from Northern Ireland that automatically makes him an authority on the subject. Why doesn't he come down to the area I live in and speak to the employed women behind the protest, these women that are not on drugs or any other stereotypical social problem journalists like to attribute to my community.

Who is helping through her activity to deny other people the chance of having meaningful employment and dragging the place's reputation further through the dirt. You know her, why is she doing it junder?

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Who is helping through her activity to deny other people the chance of having meaningful employment and dragging the place's reputation further through the dirt. You know her, why is she doing it junder?

Because she is fed up with the continued and systematic assault on the British identity, not only are her symbols, but her culture is being denied, she is not even allowed the dignity of defining her own cultural and national identity without idiots dictating to her that she is Irish because they say so

SoulandForm

https://mobile.twitter.com/Vota_Idiota/status/289766880871317504/photos

What "Loyal" Ulster acting the maggot means for ordinary people.

pablomakaveli

junder wrote: »

Because she is fed up with the continued and systematic assault on the British identity, not only are her symbols, but her culture is being denied, she is not even allowed the dignity of defining her own cultural and national identity without idiots dictating to her that she is Irish because they say so

Nationalists in NI have had to put up with that for a long time. A bit of compromise is only fair at the end of the day.

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

Because she is fed up with the continued and systematic assault on the British identity, not only are her symbols, but her culture is being denied, she is not even allowed the dignity of defining her own cultural and national identity without idiots dictating to her that she is Irish because they say so

British culture is in no way being denied. There is no looming ban on following Manchester United, reading Shakespeare or eating fish and chips.

Are you telling us now that Loyal Ulster does not have a large strand of Gaelic blood in its veins and that the people who make it up havent been living in Ireland for centuries even if that wasnt the case? The fact is that we both know how people like her acted when they had the upper hand . We are only talking about balance here. That is all.

the_syco

What I always remember is that many of the gaels who settled in NI were from Scotland (Scottish Gaels). Scotland is now looking to separate from the UK.

If the OO and locals riot down here in Dublin to fight, I wonder how hard it'll be to tell the english football shirt wearing Irish, from the english football shirt wearing loyalists?

The riots will be seen as a reason to avoid NI, and I wonder if those that don't know the politics behind the riots (eg; people not from RoI, NI, or the rest of the UK) will just see it as a continuation of the Troubles?

Tea drinker

SoulandForm wrote: »

British culture is in no way being denied. There is no looming ban on following Manchester United, reading Shakespeare or eating fish and chips.

I do not agree. surely all nations can fly their flag over gov buildings all the time. Perhaps we should lower the irish flag over Gov buildings here, in fact pretty apt given how solidly we have been defeated in Europe.

karma_

Tea drinker wrote: »

I do not agree. surely all nations can fly their flag over gov buildings all the time. Perhaps we should lower the irish flag over Gov buildings here, in fact pretty apt given how solidly we have been defeated in Europe.

The flag does fly, on designated days. It hasn;t been banned you know. This was a council decision which brought the flag flying into line with that of Stormont.

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

Because she is fed up with the continued and systematic assault on the British identity not only are her symbols, but her culture is being denied

And here's the problem right here folks. Not being allowed to dominate the north with symbols and unrestricted marching of 'the Queen's highways' is considered an assault on 'British identity'.

Well if moves towards parity and equality in the north is viewed as an assault on 'British identity' then you're not being very British. Unlike the British you speak of in the north the British (in Britian), on the whole, consider themselves a tolerant bunch who respect the democratic progress.

she is not even allowed the dignity of defining her own cultural and national identity without idiots dictating to her that she is Irish because they say so

Is her identity so fragile that she feels threatened by the opinions of people she's never met that have no bearing on how she lives her day-to-day life? Poor pet.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

And here's the problem right here folks. Not being allowed to dominate the north with symbols and unrestricted marching of 'the Queen's highways' is considered an assault on 'British identity'.

Well if moves towards parity and equality in the north is viewed as an assault on 'British identity' then you're not being very British. Unlike the British you speak of in the north the British (in Britian), on the whole, consider themselves a tolerant bunch who respect the democratic progress.



Is her identity so fragile that she feels threatened by the opinions of people she's never met that have no bearing on how she lives her day-to-day life? Poor pet.

Poor pet indeed, still, she's the one blocking the roads up here along with many like her.

VinLieger

Loyalists are refusing to accept the new democracy they live in where they arent in power anymore and they have no one to blame but themselves tbh. As the OP's article states education is not a priority for alot of them so no wonder they are losing power.
They lost a democratic vote and refusing to accept that fact by burning their own cars and streets is not going to win them any support from anywhere.

karma_

junder wrote: »

Poor pet indeed, still, she's the one blocking the roads up here along with many like her.

It's a shame that it took the taking down of a single flag to provoke her into action when she and many others like her could have protested years ago about the absolutely abhorrent state school system that young protestants have to endure up here. And that's just one example. How long have the DUP been failing working class protestant communities now? Yet still voters ignore actual issues and vote for them in election after election.

The fact is this was a non-issue from the get go and the DUP have used this girl for political gain whilst failing her at the same time. If it wasn't so utterly pathetic it would be funny.

sure joe

junder wrote: »

Because she is fed up with the continued and systematic assault on the British identity, not only are her symbols, but her culture is being denied, she is not even allowed the dignity of defining her own cultural and national identity without idiots dictating to her that she is Irish because they say so

can you imagine how ridiculous it is for unionist to riot because the union flag is only being flown for the same number of days as the rest of the u.k. if unionist are struggling with this concept. then imagine living under this flag when it is the one represnting a people and country that has oppressed your people for hundreds of years. imagine living in your own country the country of your forefathers and having this oppressors flag shoved down your throat at every turn. who are the idiots dictating that she is irish becase they say so. if she was born and bred in ireland then that is what dictates she is irish. if a person is born and bred in england and have irish ancestors. they might like to think they are irish but the fact of the matter is that they are english

junder

karma_ wrote: »

It's a shame that it took the taking down of a single flag to provoke her into action when she and many others like her could have protested years ago about the absolutely abhorrent state school system that young protestants have to endure up here. And that's just one example. How long have the DUP been failing working class protestant communities now? Yet still voters ignore actual issues and vote for them in election after election.

The fact is this was a non-issue from the get go and the DUP have used this girl for political gain whilst failing her at the same time. If it wasn't so utterly pathetic it would be funny.

DUP are not behind this, Infact they are ****ting themselves that the list control, deride the all you want but these protests are coming from the people not political party's, some personalitys are trying to hijack things for its own ends, but they will fail. Post all you want on the Internet pour as much scorn as you like on the people taking part but it won't change anything and its not going to stop them.

sure joe

junder wrote: »

DUP are not behind this, Infact they are ****ting themselves that the list control, deride the all you want but these protests are coming from the people not political party's, some personalitys are trying to hijack things for its own ends, but they will fail. Post all you want on the Internet pour as much scorn as you like on the people taking part but it won't change anything and its not going to stop them.

how will they cope when the power shift really changes. i cant wait

sure joe

as i see it
flag comes down republicans 1 - 0 unionists

unionists attack their own police force republicans 2 -0 unionists

just waiting for police to attack unionist riotes like they would repulicans. then we have a hatrick

woodoo

sure joe wrote: »

can you imagine how ridiculous it is for unionist to riot because the union flag is only being flown for the same number of days as the rest of the u.k. if unionist are struggling with this concept. then imagine living under this flag when it is the one represnting a people and country that has oppressed your people for hundreds of years. imagine living in your own country the country of your forefathers and having this oppressors flag shoved down your throat at every turn.

I agree with this part of your post. I think the loyalists have been too spoilt in Northern Ireland for far too long. When they don't get it all their own way they throw the toys from the pram.

woodoo

sure joe wrote: »

as i see it
flag comes down republicans 1 - 0 unionists

unionists attack their own police force republicans 2 -0 unionists

just waiting for police to attack unionist riotes like they would repulicans. then we have a hatrick

I don't really agree with the point scoring. I want to see real equality in northern Ireland. I don't have a problem with your average unionist. I do have a problem with loyalist bigoted thugs though.

sure joe

woodoo wrote: »

I don't really agree with the point scoring. I want to see real equality in northern Ireland. I don't have a problem with your average unionist. I do have a problem with loyalist bigoted thugs though.

given the unionist voting patterns your average unionist is at the very least a loyalist bigot sure wasnt their favourite a bigoted thug. the rev.ian

gurramok

junder wrote: »

Because she is fed up with the continued and systematic assault on the British identity, not only are her symbols, but her culture is being denied, she is not even allowed the dignity of defining her own cultural and national identity without idiots dictating to her that she is Irish because they say so

You should read the BBC comments section on the whole thing. Loyalism in the English eyes has taken one step backwards on this. Even comments like throw NI out of the union is common because of the shame associated with thugs rioting over a flag and insulting the British flag and identity.

Defiler Of The Coffin

junder wrote: »

DUP are not behind this, Infact they are ****ting themselves that the list control, deride the all you want but these protests are coming from the people not political party's, some personalitys are trying to hijack things for its own ends, but they will fail. Post all you want on the Internet pour as much scorn as you like on the people taking part but it won't change anything and its not going to stop them.

I fail to see how bringing the flying of the flag over a civic building into line with the rest of the UK is an attack on the PUL people's culture. It's certainly no excuse to grind entire cities to a standstill like what happened to Belfast tonight. It really seems to me that those protesting are simply unhappy that the days of the northern orange state are well and truly over and 'the other side' now get a say in how the place is administered. You may see that as me 'pouring scorn' on the people taking part but really I can't see any good reason to cause so much trouble over something so trivial. For feck sake it's a flag!

sure joe

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I fail to see how bringing the flying of the flag over a civic building into line with the rest of the UK is an attack on the PUL people's culture. It's certainly no excuse to grind entire cities to a standstill like what happened to Belfast tonight. It really seems to me that those protesting are simply unhappy that the days of the northern orange state are well and truly over and 'the other side' now get a say in how the place is administered. You may see that as me 'pouring scorn' on the people taking part but really I can't see any good reason to cause so much trouble over something so trivial. For feck sake it's a flag!

but to them its not just a flag it was a symbol of their control. something to let the irish know who was the boss. this is why they are making such a big deal because their power is eroding

Defiler Of The Coffin

sure joe wrote: »

but to them its not just a flag it was a symbol of their control. something to let the irish know who was the boss. this is why they are making such a big deal because their power is eroding

Surely that's a cynical way of looking at things, but in the absence of any better explanation it's not an unreasonable viewpoint

blahfckingblah

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Surely that's a cynical way of looking at things, but in the absence of any better explanation it's not an unreasonable viewpoint

well after all this time there still hasn't been a single coherent argument put forward by the loyalist thugs or their supporters, so im leaning towards this viewpoint

leedslad

sure joe wrote: »

who are the idiots dictating that she is irish becase they say so. if she was born and bred in ireland then that is what dictates she is irish. if a person is born and bred in england and have irish ancestors. they might like to think they are irish but the fact of the matter is that they are english

Got a label for everyone Joe, haven't we? Where were you born then Joe?
and when? Just wondering if you are older or younger than me because that probably affects whether you're more or less Irish than I am

gurramok

sure joe wrote: »

if a person is born and bred in england and have irish ancestors. they might like to think they are irish but the fact of the matter is that they are english

Am I English? Think about that, i was born in London to Irish parents and raised here.

GRMA

Words fail me.

A pensioner pleaded to be let through to see his dying wife and the protesters sung cheerio cheerio cheerio.... in reference to the dying mans wife

maccored

what lovely people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MniALmFvDPI

I was being really sarcastic btw. I fail to see how the PSNI werent aware of a protest outside a hospital, cus they certainly dont sound like they were there.

GRMA

Great minds....

thebman

Thing that confuses me is how does flying the flag on the same days they do in the rest of Britain making the place less British?

Isn't it making it more British?

VinLieger

thebman wrote: »

Thing that confuses me is how does flying the flag on the same days they do in the rest of Britain making the place less British?

Isn't it making it more British?

Comes back to the lack of education and its mainly due to them not being comfortable with the fact they arent in complete control anymore

Seanchai

SoulandForm wrote: »

David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

I am absolutely certain that during the past week Willie Fraser was interviewed by either Drivertime or Matt Cooper where he said precisely the same: this protest is not about the flag. In other words, McKittrick is adding nothing to this.

jonsnow

Damn right its not about the flag.It about the UVF/UDA commanders warning the British government that they can still drag the north back into anarchy if the Historical Enquiries team get any grand notions.

clairefontaine

I don't understand why they didnt put two flags up, one loyalist, one republican or whatever you call it, and leave them both up all year round.

OR as part of the peace process, they should have designed a new flag altogether.

Symbols are important but this could have easily been avoided.

SoulandForm

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't understand why they didnt put two flags up, one loyalist, one republican or whatever you call it, and leave them both up all year round.

OR as part of the peace process, they should have designed a new flag altogether.

Symbols are important but this could have easily been avoided.

That was suggested first by Sinn Fein I believe. That would be much more unacceptable to Loyalists, much, much, more.

SoulandForm

In fairness to the UDA they havent been involved in this as far as I have been able to work out. Certainly the so-called Beast from the East who has taken over the UVF in Belfast is probably very involved. The HET is only part of it.

jonsnow wrote: »

Damn right its not about the flag.It about the UVF/UDA commanders warning the British government that they can still drag the north back into anarchy if the Historical Enquiries team get any grand notions.

InchicoreDude

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't understand why they didnt put two flags up, one loyalist, one republican or whatever you call it, and leave them both up all year round.

OR as part of the peace process, they should have designed a new flag altogether.

Symbols are important but this could have easily been avoided.

Would require logical thinking which has always been missing in NI.

Giblet

Willie was just spotted outside the Palazzo Valentini in Rome

Jelle1880

sure joe wrote: »

as i see it
flag comes down republicans 1 - 0 unionists

unionists attack their own police force republicans 2 -0 unionists

just waiting for police to attack unionist riotes like they would repulicans. then we have a hatrick

FYI, the PSNI has repeatedly attacked protesters while leaving the brick-throwing idiots from the Republican side alone.
They also seem to think it's a marvellous idea to guide protesters back home past areas like the Short Strand.

And today a suspect package was found along the route protesters would follow.

edit:

By Aine Fox
Published on Thursday 10 January 2013 20:21

Almost half of the people living in Ireland - combining Northern Ireland and the Republic - believe it was wrong to limit the number of days the Union flag flies at Belfast City Hall.

Just 36 per cent of those living in Dublin agree with the decision made by Belfast City councillors on December 3, which preceded six months of protests and riots on the streets of Northern Ireland.

Forty-eight per cent branded the decision incorrect.

An average of 46 per cent altogether across Ireland said they felt the flag should not have been removed, to fly only on designated days.

The Red C opinion poll for Paddy Power asked people across Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster if they agreed with the decision. An average of 18 per cent said they did not know.

And 44 per cent of Sinn Fein voters - whose party had originally called for the flag to be removed entirely - said they felt the decision was wrong.

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

FYI, the PSNI has repeatedly attacked protesters while leaving the brick-throwing idiots from the Republican side alone.

please don't tell me you see them as the belligerents in this scene

Jelle1880

No, but it paints a different picture than that which sure joe is trying to paint (that of the PSNI going soft on Loyalists as opposed to their response against Republicans).

sure joe

Jelle1880 wrote: »

No, but it paints a different picture than that which sure joe is trying to paint (that of the PSNI going soft on Loyalists as opposed to their response against Republicans).

who said they were going soft on loyalists. clearly the majority of them are loyalists

Jelle1880

Well you seemed to claim that the PSNI don't attack loyalists like they do republicans, apologies if that was misunderstood.

sure joe

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Well you seemed to claim that the PSNI don't attack loyalists like they do republicans, apologies if that was misunderstood.

i dont think any impartial person would disagree with that. its amazing that the loyalists now see themselves as victims.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Well you seemed to claim that the PSNI don't attack loyalists like they do republicans, apologies if that was misunderstood.

Why have they allowed the Loyalists night after night to block roads without taking them off the roads as they did with the residents of Ardoyne to allow the Orange Order which celebrates anti-RC pogroms to pass by?

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

FYI, the PSNI has repeatedly attacked protesters while leaving the brick-throwing idiots from the Republican side alone.
They also seem to think it's a marvellous idea to guide protesters back home past areas like the Short Strand.

I see have the swallowed the Britain First!/Jame Bryson version of events. Well done.

Jelle1880

SoulandForm wrote: »

Why have they allowed the Loyalists night after night to block roads without taking them off the roads as they did with the residents of Ardoyne to allow the Orange Order which celebrates anti-RC pogroms to pass by?

You think officers are getting injured because they're allowing it to happen ?

They've been at it pretty much every night to get those blockades gone, which leads to rioting.

Not much more they can do, right ?

sure joe: I think you're stuck in the RUC times.
It's still not 50/50, but the amount of Catholics in the PSNI has increased immensely. And the fact that a police officer may or may not be Protestant does not necessarily mean he/she is a Loyalist.

So no, they're not 'protecting the Loyalist rioters', on the contrary.

SoulandForm: Not a clue what you're on about, but the evidence is out there which shows that protesters are re-routed past Republican areas, from which they are then attacked.
If a SF Councillor in Short Strand admits that Republican youths were the ones attacking then I'm pretty sure that's how it's happened.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

You think officers are getting injured because they're allowing it to happen ?

No- but the fact is that they are going softly on the actual rioters and they are not freeing for normal traffic. This is emboldening the Loyalists and sending a pretty frightening message to the nationalist community.