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David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

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Comments

  • #552
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Thomas_I wrote: »

    OK, I withdraw my saying "Republicans where not inclined to apologise". I also won´t to be a "pain in the a.." by stirring this up any further. I´ve recently read in a book "The Course of Irish History" that most of the peace process, i.e. the initiative that has brought it into reality is on the credit of the former US President Bill Clinton. Of course I do not forget about Gerry Adams as the one who was very close involved in the set up of the process, among other politicians which were drawn to this.

    Obviously to "guess who have trenchantly resisted that process" isn´t quite hard, we all know who. The "big Reverent Ian Paisley".

    Adams is not the soul author of the peace process, all he did was sell it (although only with the support of mcgunniess) to his own faction and get them to agree to a ceasefire. He did not bring the loyalists to the table, thier own political representatives did that. Moreover if you read that Paul Dixon book I recommended you will see just how much the British state schooled republicans in what to say and how to act. And Clinton, don't make me laugh


  • #553
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Happyman42 wrote: »

    The republican people of the South who didn't agree with what the IRA where doing, made their voices heard and shunned SF and the IRA as a result and are still doing it, has the Unionist community done that to these people? No they haven't, that is why it continues. Unionism is a belligerent politics, the insistance on flying this flag and the yearly trouble over marches being exampes of it.
    You don't have to be sectarian to be undemocratic.

    Guessed you missed the part about making in accurate generalisations about people


  • #554
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    junder wrote: »
    Guessed you missed the part about making in accurate generalisations about people

    Unionism has dug it's heels in on nearly every peaceful progression so far, loads of threats, huffing and puffing and then capitulation. Then they try to bask in the glow when the initative works. :rolleyes: It's all becoming very familiar, that's why I say, the flag protest will fade away and not a word will be said about it in a few months.
    There is no doubt that it's a belligerent ideology.


  • #555
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Thomas_I wrote: »
    Obviously to "guess who have trenchantly resisted that process" isn´t quite hard, we all know who. The "big Reverent Ian Paisley".
    Wrong again, the British have refused to get involved in one.


  • #556
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    junder wrote: »
    Adams is not the soul author of the peace process, all he did was sell it (although only with the support of mcgunniess) to his own faction and get them to agree to a ceasefire. He did not bring the loyalists to the table, thier own political representatives did that. Moreover if you read that Paul Dixon book I recommended you will see just how much the British state schooled republicans in what to say and how to act. And Clinton, don't make me laugh

    McGuinness wasn´t mentioned in that book in regards to setting up the frame for the peace process. The British government did play a huge part in it, as you said. It was John Major who did his part very well to provide the grounds on which Tony Blair did the further works. As you said "Adams ... all he did was sell it ..." there had to be one to do the selling to the Republican community. The British brought the Loyalists to the table to them Clinton might rather be seen in suspicious way. I´ve also read in that book about Irish History that "Tony Blair´s handshakes with Gerry Adams" caused "not much sympathy" among the Unionists / Loyalists. No question about that.


  • #557
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Wrong again, the British have refused to get involved in one.

    It would be very helpful if you would state to which time you´re referring to by all this confusing statements of yours.


  • #558
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Thomas_I wrote: »
    It would be very helpful if you would state to which time you´re referring to by all this confusing statements of yours.

    Nothing confusing in the facts, if you look for them.
    Have a read for starters, use the bibliography for further research.
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/estudiosirlandeses/mailhes05.pdf


  • #559
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Wrong again, the British have refused to get involved in one.

    The British directed the whole process, they schooled republicans in how to sell the gfa they sacrificed the uup and sdlp just to get the two extremes the DUP and Sinn Fein right into the center of the process allowing the real politick to effectively hamstring both party's who are now well into the process of stealing the uup and sdlp's clothes leaving them almost defunct. The best both the sdlp and uup can hope for now is to hung on to the coat tails of the DUP and sdlp


  • #560
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    junder wrote: »
    The British directed the whole process, they schooled republicans in how to sell the gfa they sacrificed the uup and sdlp just to get the two extremes the DUP and Sinn Fein right into the center of the process allowing the real politick to effectively hamstring both party's who are now well into the process of stealing the uup and sdlp's clothes leaving them almost defunct. The best both the sdlp and uup can hope for now is to hung on to the coat tails of the DUP and sdlp

    I´m tending to regard your opinion as being closer to the facts, because it matches with what I´ve read from other sources than these recently recommended by Happyman42.

    You can argue about that, even have a laugh on Clinton (why not it´s even healthy:D), I think that without some initiative from the USA - whether welcome or not at the beginning is another question - the British might have take even longer to bring the peace process further. The thing I can´t get along with is your saying that the British schooled SF in how to sell the GFA to their Republican fellowmen. That´s a bid hard to imagine, even given the pragmatism of Adams and McGuinness and the influence from the Americans on Adams. But as I think "nothing is impossible until proved otherwise" I wouldn´t exclude that at all.

    This thread has gone that complicated already that I think I´m almost done with it (useless to stick in the middle of two rivalling parties). I´ll remember your recommented book by Paul Dixon and probably have a try to buy it somewhere in the near future.

    I hope we´ll meet on here on another thread. Take care and have a good time.:)


  • #561
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Nothing confusing in the facts, if you look for them.
    Have a read for starters, use the bibliography for further research.
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/estudiosirlandeses/mailhes05.pdf[/QUOTE]

    I know that website and I also browsed there in the last couple of days. So I´ve had a look on these pages from your link. It´s not the "facts" that confuses me, it´s rather your recent posts. They do and as I´ve told junder, I´m almost done with this thread and therefore I´m off.

    When I see some videos on youtube, recorded last year I just think in the terms of that old wellknown English song "It´s a long way to Tipperary", It´s a long way to peace for NI, it´s indeed a long way to go and I don´t know how long the road is yet.

    Anyway we might meet again on another place on these boards. Bye then till the next time.


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  • #562
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Regarding the GFA, I don't think the Loyalists would have went along with it if wasn't for Gusty Spence and David Ervine. There was a mutual respect between them and Gerry Adams and McGuinness. Myself despite being a republican, a constitutional republican at that, I have respect for all of them. David Ervine and Spence saw how wrong sectarianism and the oppression that caused nationalists and republicans to take up arms was, and considering how loyalists today do not appear to have moved on judging by what we have seen on the Nolan show and lack of leadership on behalf of Unionist parties when it has to neglecting to condemn dissident unionists it is now apparent the north needs unionist politicians like David Ervine, who was respected and popular across the political spectrum. His death was a huge blow for cross-community politics.

    All of these men helped take the gun out of Irish politics, so people with political agendas, against Sinn Féin in particular, should stop demonizing them.

    Micheal Martin, Fine Gael and the broad base of their supporters especially act contemptible. The DUP, the antithesis of Sinn Féin are in government with Sinn Féin, but Sinn Féin are not good enough for Fine Gael and Michael Martin?


  • #563
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    The reality was in regards to the GFA, I don't think the Loyalists would have went along with it Gusty Spence and David Ervine.

    What choice did they have? Who was the enemy when the IRA went on ceasefire? Not that their sectarian murder campaign had any impact on the IRA anyway with only 4% of their killings being Republicans in spite of collusion.


  • #564
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    What choice did they have? Who was the enemy when the IRA went on ceasefire? Not that their sectarian murder campaign had any impact on the IRA anyway with only 4% of their killings being Republicans in spite of collusion.

    I edited my post a little to elaborate further because I think you have misinterpreted what I meant.


  • #565
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    junder wrote: »

    The British directed the whole process, they schooled republicans in how to sell the gfa they sacrificed the uup and sdlp just to get the two extremes the DUP and Sinn Fein right into the center of the process allowing the real politick to effectively hamstring both party's who are now well into the process of stealing the uup and sdlp's clothes leaving them almost defunct. The best both the sdlp and uup can hope for now is to hung on to the coat tails of the DUP and sdlp
    Don't know how you come to that conclusion, If you can think back to when the GFA was signed big Ian marched up to Stormount and was heckled by the uvf/uda DUP being the only party outside the agreement until they got to the top of the tree


  • #566
    Buzz84
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Buzz84


    So the British Government taught Sinn Fein how to sell the agreement to their own community. I think Sinn Fein know more about their own community that the British Government.


  • #567
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    junder wrote: »
    The British directed the whole process, they schooled republicans in how to sell the gfa they sacrificed the uup and sdlp just to get the two extremes the DUP and Sinn Fein right into the center of the process allowing the real politick to effectively hamstring both party's who are now well into the process of stealing the uup and sdlp's clothes leaving them almost defunct. The best both the sdlp and uup can hope for now is to hung on to the coat tails of the DUP and sdlp

    What absolute nonsense, the British deserve credit for finally coming to the table but the FACT is they almost collapsed it severval times with ridiculous demands. Like Major insisting the IRA disarm before SF would be let take part:rolleyes: They quietly dropped that when the IRA said an emphatic No but not before retarding the whole process. Schooled Republicans? Yeh right!:rolleyes:
    The SDLP where a spent force long before the GFA. Hume also deserves credit but he was always going to be periperhal to the resolution because he and his party where peripheral to the conflict.


  • #568
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Don't know how you come to that conclusion, If you can think back to when the GFA was signed big Ian marched up to Stormount and was heckled by the uvf/uda DUP being the only party outside the agreement until they got to the top of the tree

    And where are tbe DUP ( and big Ian ) now?


  • #569
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    One thing which has been overlooked is the reaction of the media in Britain to this.

    If 100 police were injured in Britain, some nearly killed (when they petrol bombed the car) numerous riots, houses attacked with petrol bombs, plastic bullets and watercannon used (remember these were not used during the london riots because it was deemed too severe) during a protest which has lasted months rather than weeks or days it would be frontpage headline news and talked about loads. t would dominate headlines, this is unrest in a supposedly integral part of the UK. Instead it is barely reported at all

    British as finchly? ha! British people and Britain itself don't seem to care at all what the Irish are getting up to


  • #570
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    GRMA wrote: »
    One thing which has been overlooked is the reaction of the media in Britain to this.

    If 100 police were injured in Britain, some nearly killed (when they petrol bombed the car) numerous riots, houses attacked with petrol bombs, plastic bullets and watercannon used (remember these were not used during the london riots because it was deemed too severe) during a protest which has lasted months rather than weeks or days it would be frontpage headline news and talked about loads. t would dominate headlines, this is unrest in a supposedly integral part of the UK. Instead it is barely reported at all

    British as finchly? ha! British people and Britain itself don't seem to care at all what the Irish are getting up to

    You been reading the Guardian GRMA?:D
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/25/great-britain-northern-ireland-belfast-rioting

    Britian isn't that bothered and never has been, even when they have been hauled into the violence, is the harsh answer. There is no appetite to learn about the reasons, most British just refer to it as an Irish problem.


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  • #571
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You been reading the Guardian GRMA?:D
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/25/great-britain-northern-ireland-belfast-rioting

    Britian isn't that bothered and never has been, even when they have been hauled into the violence, is the harsh answer. There is no appetite to learn about the reasons, most British just refer to it as an Irish problem.
    Britains finest newspaper imo... puts our rags to shame... although thats not saying much.

    Read the article elsewhere but there was no link to the source.


  • #572
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    junder wrote: »

    And where are tbe DUP ( and big Ian ) now?
    Big Ian gone, and judging by the reception Peter Robinson got in east belfast today, the dup are likely to go the same way


  • #573
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Big Ian gone, and judging by the reception Peter Robinson got in east belfast today, the dup are likely to go the same way

    What happened Peter Robinson today ? I missed the news.


  • #574
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-21223623

    The protests continue in other places and this one went peacefully. Just to take the thread back to the OP.

    This one took place on the same day in the same town and also went peacefully. On both marches were more reasonable people on the streets.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-21223627

    I suppose that they probably didn´t meet each other while on their marches.


  • #575
    guttenberg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 960 ✭✭✭guttenberg


    Opposite sides of the city Thomas. Willie Frazer spoke at the Loyalist Civil Rights march, would love to hear his speech but can't seem to find any clips unfortunately.


  • #576
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    guttenberg wrote: »
    Opposite sides of the city Thomas. Willie Frazer spoke at the Loyalist Civil Rights march, would love to hear his speech but can't seem to find any clips unfortunately.
    When someone like him is one of their leaders it says volumes doesnt it?


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  • #577
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    GRMA wrote: »
    When someone like him is one of their leaders it says volumes doesnt it?

    Probably so, but at least it went peacefully and every community could do to their own purpose. No clashes, no rioting and no violence.


  • #578
    Buzz84
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Buzz84


    Thomas_I wrote: »
    Probably so, but at least it went peacefully and every community could do to their own purpose. No clashes, no rioting and no violence.


    Should we give them a medal?


  • #579
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    Buzz84 wrote: »
    Should we give them a medal?

    Would you´ve liked to see more "action"?


  • #580
    Buzz84
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Buzz84


    Thomas_I wrote: »
    Would you´ve liked to see more "action"?

    Sorry I wasnt having a go at you in my reply, more in general. It's like we should be grateful to these knuckle draggers for not destroying the place and actually acting like civilised people.


  • #581
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    Buzz84 wrote: »
    Sorry I wasnt having a go at you in my reply, more in general. It's like we should be grateful to these knuckle draggers for not destroying the place and actually acting like civilised people.

    No problem, so we might misunderstood each other. I took your question as an ironic. Quite frankly, I don´t know how this all had went if they had met (more concerned about some evtl. actions by W. Frazer, as to say "ruining" a commemoration march).


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  • #582
    golfball37
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,722 ✭✭✭golfball37


    Willie is blaming the IRA for the horsemeat fiasco now?

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ira-involved-in-horse-burgers-willie-frazer-1-4725860


  • #583
    Buzz84
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Buzz84


    golfball37 wrote: »
    Willie is blaming the IRA for the horsemeat fiasco now?

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ira-involved-in-horse-burgers-willie-frazer-1-4725860

    The fact Frazer actually has people who will listen to him speaks volumes about Loyalism .


  • #584
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    junder wrote: »
    ... Moreover if you read that Paul Dixon book I recommended you will see just how much the British state schooled republicans in what to say and how to act....

    I´ve ordered Dixon´s book but it´ll take a while until it arrives and I´ve read it. So I´ll see of what value it is, though I´m not expecting too much from it in detail, but a conclusive picture of the whole story of NI might be provided, from what I´ve read in the review and on the extracts on amazon. But I haven´t bought it there.

    This was just to tell you, that I´ve followed your recommendation.


  • #585
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Willie to get his wish for martyrdom.

    One of the chief organisers of the street demonstrations in protest against lowering of the Union flag at Belfast City Hall was charged tonight. - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/willie-frazer-charged-with-offences-relating-to-union-flag-protests-29101868.html#sthash.KpjI8bab.dpuf

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/man-charged-over-flag-protests-29101825.html


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