David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

Poor pet indeed, still, she's the one blocking the roads up here along with many like her.

And she should be arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned for doing so.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

They've been at it pretty much every night to get those blockades gone, which leads to rioting.

They have not.

The riots are about Loyalist Ulster showing just how "Loyal" it is. The Loyalists are trying to push Northern Ireland back into the "Troubles" because they believe that that will secure them their position as top dogs, or at least their tribe as top dogs, in the face of rising social and economic power in the RC community.

Jelle1880

That's your opinion, not fact.
And I think it's an idiotic one at best, nobody apart from dissidents are trying to get NI back to those times.

As for 'going soft' ?

I don't know about you but 100 arrests, using water cannons and plastic bullets is not my definition of 'soft policing'.

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's your opinion, not fact.
And I think it's an idiotic one at best, nobody apart from dissidents are trying to get NI back to those times.

And that's your opinion too.
I think the UVF's involvement in attempting to destabilise the North is of enormous concern, and no less threatening to peace than the activities of dissident Republicans, arguably moreso, given the apparent support they are garnering from the school dropouts in their community.

Jelle1880

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And that's your opinion too.
I think the UVF's involvement in attempting to destabilise the North is of enormous concern, and no less threatening to peace than the activities of dissident Republicans, arguably moreso, given the apparent support they are garnering from the school dropouts in their community.

There is no proof that this is an orchestrated operation by the UVF (or the UDA, as claimed by others).

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's your opinion, not fact.
And I think it's an idiotic one at best, nobody apart from dissidents are trying to get NI back to those times.

As for 'going soft' ?

I don't know about you but 100 arrests, using water cannons and plastic bullets is not my definition of 'soft policing'.

enlighten us so if it is such a ridiculous opinion as to why they are continuing to hold a city to siege, disrupt day to day life, ruin homes businesses and property,and damage their economy??

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

There is no proof that this is an orchestrated operation by the UVF (or the UDA, as claimed by others).

Your head's a marley if you don't think that the UVF are orchestrating much of this. They've been caught on video doing so, above.

Jelle1880

blahfckingblah wrote: »

enlighten us so if it is such a ridiculous opinion as to why they are continuing to hold a city to siege, disrupt day to day life, ruin homes businesses and property,and damage their economy??

That has been mentioned in other threads as well: It's not simply about that flag anymore, but about lack of education, a feeling of abandonment by the government, unemployment,...

You'll see it happen in every country where a significant amount of the youth has the same worries which I just mentioned.

But because we're talking about Northern Ireland it automatically means (to some) that they want a return to The Troubles ?

Nonsense.

As for evidence that the UVF is behind this, care to show it ?
Because I don't see it anywhere here.

maccored

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It's not simply about that flag anymore, but about lack of education, a feeling of abandonment by the government, unemployment,....

how convenient they suddenly get worried about those issues when the whole flag issue was seen for what it was.

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That has been mentioned in other threads as well: It's not simply about that flag anymore, but about lack of education, a feeling of abandonment by the government, unemployment,...

You'll see it happen in every country where a significant amount of the youth has the same worries which I just mentioned.

But because we're talking about Northern Ireland it automatically means (to some) that they want a return to The Troubles ?

Nonsense.

As for evidence that the UVF is behind this, care to show it ?
Because I don't see it anywhere here.

ok then if thats the case what is their goal? what do you think needs to happen before they call an end to it? theres more than unemployment and dissatisfaction with the government at play or dublin would be in bits long ago

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

As for evidence that the UVF is behind this, care to show it ?
Because I don't see it anywhere here.

http://youtu.be/S0TLQBOUfFs

From about 9 minutes in.
Knock yourself out.

Jelle1880

Cavehill Red wrote: »

http://youtu.be/S0TLQBOUfFs

From about 9 minutes in.
Knock yourself out.

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

Sure, there will be UVF members or sympathisers amongs the rioters, just like there were in the summer when things went bad.
But that doesn't mean this is all being set up by the UVF.

Ironically, a few days ago it was the UDA setting this all up according to some.

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

Sure, there will be UVF members or sympathisers amongs the rioters, just like there were in the summer when things went bad.
But that doesn't mean this is all being set up by the UVF.

I guess you're only going to see what you want to see.
Let me tell you what I see.
I see bricks raining down on the PSNI. Then they abruptly stop and Billy Hutchinson and some senior UVF figures step forward demanding to speak to 'whoever's in charge'.
Seems to me Billy and the boys can turn it on and off like a tap.

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

Sure, there will be UVF members or sympathisers amongs the rioters, just like there were in the summer when things went bad.
But that doesn't mean this is all being set up by the UVF.

Ironically, a few days ago it was the UDA setting this all up according to some.

you have your blinkers on if you think there is no sinister element to these protests

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Ironically, a few days ago it was the UDA setting this all up according to some.

According to who? The UDA have not been overly enthusiastic about the protests from the start.

marozz

Maybe it's a good opportunity for nationalist parties to get together and
make a concession, for the good of the community as a whole,
and let the loyalists have their flag fly all year round.
It would also be interesting to see the loyalist
reaction to such a "consession".

SoulandForm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20929658

The PSNI have mentioned the UVF, they havent mentioned the UDA now have they??

Senior members they say, not just mere members or sympathizers.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

Sure, there will be UVF members or sympathisers amongs the rioters, just like there were in the summer when things went bad.
But that doesn't mean this is all being set up by the UVF.

Ironically, a few days ago it was the UDA setting this all up according to some.

SoulandForm

They would see it as weakness and go after other things.

marozz wrote: »

Maybe it's a good opportunity for nationalist parties to get together and
make a concession, for the good of the community as a whole,
and let the loyalists have their flag fly all year round.
It would also be interesting to see the loyalist
reaction to such a "consession".

blahfckingblah

marozz wrote: »

Maybe it's a good opportunity for nationalist parties to get together and
make a concession, for the good of the community as a whole,
and let the loyalists have their flag fly all year round.
It would also be interesting to see the loyalist
reaction to such a "consession".

its not down to nationalists its down to democracy. democracy is the most important factor in this for me

Cavehill Red

marozz wrote: »

Maybe it's a good opportunity for nationalist parties to get together and
make a concession, for the good of the community as a whole,
and let the loyalists have their flag fly all year round.
It would also be interesting to see the loyalist
reaction to such a "consession".

Or how about those people currently breaking the law 'concede' to stop doing so?

Jelle1880

I checked some of the other threads because I was sure I read some things there where people claimed the UDA was behind it all, but can't find it.

My bad

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I checked some of the other threads because I was sure I read some things there where people claimed the UDA was behind it all, but can't find it.

My bad

Too busy drug dealing. Someone's got to get the coke in to refresh all those hardworking protesters doing double shifts, after all.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That has been mentioned in other threads as well: It's not simply about that flag anymore, but about lack of education, a feeling of abandonment by the government, unemployment,...

If it were about these they would be waving the red flag and not the Union Jack; but they are not are they? Its about the rise of social power among those from a Roman Catholic background. They want to set the clock back to 1960.

Jelle1880

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's your opinion, not fact.
And I think it's an idiotic one at best, nobody apart from dissidents are trying to get NI back to those times.

As for 'going soft' ?

I don't know about you but 100 arrests, using water cannons and plastic bullets is not my definition of 'soft policing'.

Less than 3 a night since the start, real hard nuts.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I saw that video as well before, and I don't see any proof in it that the UVF is orchestrating things.

I'm shocked.

jrichardca

"...I think all the girls that are in this fair country
Should begin making children as fast as they can
So if ever Her Majesty asks for an Army
We'll be able to send her as many as Dan..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZeMumrLwJ4

Jelle1880

SoulandForm wrote: »

If it were about these they would be waving the red flag and not the Union Jack; but they are not are they? Its about the rise of social power among those from a Roman Catholic background. They want to set the clock back to 1960.

If they wanted to set the clock back there's faster and more direct ways to do that, namely taking up arms again.

Like I said: The original protest may have been about the flag, it's not anymore and is now a mix of social unrest, a bunch of c*nts wrecking the place for their own entertainment, others who are frustrated about unemployment,...

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

a bunch of c*nts

i wholeheartedly agree

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

If they wanted to set the clock back there's faster and more direct ways to do that, namely taking up arms again.

If you listen closely to what Loyalist leaders are saying that happening is a strong possibility.

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

If they wanted to set the clock back there's faster and more direct ways to do that, namely taking up arms again.

Like I said: The original protest may have been about the flag, it's not anymore and is now a mix of social unrest, a bunch of c*nts wrecking the place for their own entertainment, others who are frustrated about unemployment,...

This began, as Trimble pointed out, with the DUP trying to point-score over Alliance. It got hijacked by the UVF, who failed miserably as a political entity, in an attempt to retain relevance among their core audience. Now it's a bunch of bowsies going out to riot for entertainment. It's time they started jailing everyone caught breaking the law and withholding their dole cheques.

junder

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And she should be arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned for doing so.

She's not doing anything illegal. But yer arrest the protestors that will really calm things down.

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

She's not doing anything illegal. But yer arrest the protestors that will really calm things down.

She's blocking the Queen's highway, according to you. Let's see if she's still doing that come the Twelfth.

blahfckingblah

yeah imagine the police doing their job arresting people who are breaking the law.

junder

Cavehill Red wrote: »

This began, as Trimble pointed out, with the DUP trying to point-score over Alliance. It got hijacked by the UVF, who failed miserably as a political entity, in an attempt to retain relevance among their core audience. Now it's a bunch of bowsies going out to riot for entertainment. It's time they started jailing everyone caught breaking the law and withholding their dole cheques.

Perhaps you should Actully listen to what mat baggot actually said.he said while thier are elements of the UVF involved namely east Belfast, the UVF as a whole is not and that those in east Belfast are acting outside the main UVF. Billy Hutchison has called for any UVF members taking part in the riots to stop. If the entire UVF where involved every area would be rioting. FYI the areas rioting last in rathcoole are not UVF areas.

Jelle1880

blahfckingblah wrote: »

yeah imagine the police doing their job arresting people who are breaking the law.

They do arrest rioters.

As for arresting protesters: Are they doing anything illegal then ?

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

Billy Hutchison has called for any UVF members taking part in the riots to stop.

He can't be calling very loud. They were standing right next to him in that video.

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

They do arrest rioters.

As for arresting protesters: Are they doing anything illegal then ?

I'm not opposed to any peaceful protest.

so you think that 100 people since the 3rd of december is good policing, theres no deterrent

Jelle1880

Cavehill Red wrote: »

He can't be calling very loud. They were standing right next to him in that video.

Were they throwing bricks in that video ?

For all we know they were there to try and calm things down, Hutchinson was asking for the person in charge to talk things over apparently.

blahfckingblah wrote: »

I'm not opposed to any peaceful protest.

so you think that 100 people since the 3rd of december is good policing, theres no deterrent

No, I don't think the PSNI is doing a good job.
But they're also not standing by idle.

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Were they throwing bricks in that video ?

Rewind it to about 8 minutes. It's like it's snowing halfers.

junder

Cavehill Red wrote: »

She's blocking the Queen's highway, according to you. Let's see if she's still doing that come the Twelfth.

It's not illegal unless police issue a dispersal order which can only be issued in very specific circumstances. In my area the police have taken a very different stance to other areas which has resulted in no trouble. Infact I would like to congratulate the Psni for the way they policed the local protest to where I live, they facilitated the protest, which lasted a specific time, then dispersed with out trouble. All emergency services where allowed through

junder

Cavehill Red wrote: »

He can't be calling very loud. They were standing right next to him in that video.

So you know who's who in the UVF?

Jelle1880

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Rewind it to about 8 minutes. It's like it's snowing halfers.

I'm talking about Hutchinson and the people next to him, obviously.

blahfckingblah

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I'm talking about Hutchinson and the people next to him, obviously.

clearly just happened upon the social unrest did they? you are either really naive or sympathetic

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I'm talking about Hutchinson and the people next to him, obviously.

I didn't say they were throwing bricks. But clearly they were able to influence those who were to stop and start at will.

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

So you know who's who in the UVF?

I'm confident in stating that Billy was accompanied by senior UVF figures in that clip, yes.

maccored

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I'm talking about Hutchinson and the people next to him, obviously.

i think he's psychic as he just knew when the stones and bottles would stop flying.

junder

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm confident in stating that Billy was accompanied by senior UVF figures in that clip, yes.

If can identify UVF members then you should pass that sort of info to the police

Jelle1880

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I didn't say they were throwing bricks. But clearly they were able to influence those who were to stop and start at will.

Possibly, but maybe because Hutchinson is no doubt a known face in the area.

Public faces turning up at these things do tend to calm things down (or worsen them in some cases).
To me this doesn't show some behind-the-scenes orchestration by the UVF.

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

If can identify UVF members then you should pass that sort of info to the police

The PSNI are well aware of the identities of the UVF leadership, as they are of the leadership of all paramilitary organisations.

Jelle1880

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The PSNI are well aware of the identities of the UVF leadership, as they are of the leadership of all paramilitary organisations.

So if the people next to Hutchinson were UVF members, why not arrest them on the spot ?

karma_

junder wrote: »

If can identify UVF members then you should pass that sort of info to the police

You can find pictures of them yourself every weekend in the Sunday World.