David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

karma_

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So if the people next to Hutchinson were UVF members, why not arrest them on the spot ?

It's like a dirty open secret here in the North. I guess you'd need to live here for a while.

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Possibly, but maybe because Hutchinson is no doubt a known face in the area.

Public faces turning up at these things do tend to calm things down (or worsen them in some cases).
To me this doesn't show some behind-the-scenes orchestration by the UVF.

The UVF are all over this, albeit as you accurately stated not in every area. For Billy Hutchison and senior UVF personnel to interrupt rioting and go to request a parlay with the PSNI indicates that clearer than even a statement would.

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

If can identify UVF members then you should pass that sort of info to the police

they know after all they did release the statement saying the UVF were involved, it you who seems to struggle with the fact

junder

blahfckingblah wrote: »

they know after all they did release the statement saying the UVF were involved, it you who seems to struggle with the fact

I go by what mat baggot said, but I will bow to the obviously superior knowledge of boards.ie of who's who in the UVF

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

I go by what mat baggot said, but I will bow to the obviously superior knowledge of boards.ie of who's who in the UVF

Or you could go by what the PSNI said.

junder

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Or you could go by what the PSNI said.

My bad, I thought matt baggot was in the Psni. And here was me thinking he was the Psni boss

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

My bad, I thought matt baggot was in the Psni. And here was me thinking he was the Psni boss

I'm embarrassed for you -

http://www.u.tv/News/UVF-members-behind-flag-trouble/88468242-4c5a-4e07-a3c4-3dba8ad46ed4

Cavehill Red

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So if the people next to Hutchinson were UVF members, why not arrest them on the spot ?

Why don't they arrest Martin McGuinness while they're at it? He's a confirmed PIRA member. The answer is because such people are engaged in the political process. With McGuinness, he's come in from the cold and it would destabilise the political structures to arrest him. With the UVF leadership, the PSNI are aware that to lift them off the streets would similarly destabilise those parts of the city which are held under their thrall.
From my perspective, I'd be happy to see the PSNI arrest them. I think they're dinosaurs who failed politically and have now reverted to their habitual barbarism, and that it would benefit the rest of us to see them all behind bars.
Perhaps the PSNI are waiting to see what the historical cases unit turns up so as to throw the book at them. One can always hope.

junder

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm embarrassed for you -

http://www.u.tv/News/UVF-members-behind-flag-trouble/88468242-4c5a-4e07-a3c4-3dba8ad46ed4

Perhaps you should read the articule in full, since he reiterates what he previously said in that there are elements of the UVF involved namely east Belfast. He still had not said that the UVF are involved and that what UVF is involved are local to east Belfast and not directed from the central UVF leadership, perhaps this is why the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland still believes THE UVF's ceasefire intact

Cavehill Red

junder wrote: »

Perhaps you should read the articule in full, since he reiterates what he previously said in that there are elements of the UVF involved namely east Belfast. He still had not said that the UVF are involved and that what UVF is involved are local to east Belfast and not directed from the central UVF leadership, perhaps this is why the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland still believes THE UVF's ceasefire intact

Are we reading the same article? Allow me to quote: Mr Baggott said: "Senior members of the UVF in east Belfast as individuals have been increasingly orchestrating some of this violence.
"That is utterly unacceptable and is being done for their own selfish motives."

blahfckingblah

what time is kickoff tonight?

SoulandForm

Junder is what you are hoping for re-partition along sectarian lines?

GRMA

Its amazing that a member of the security forces can be even ambivalent (I'm feeling generous today) about these protests given the large amount of injured PSNI officers and attempted murders of other officers

SoulandForm

GRMA wrote: »

Its amazing that a member of the security forces can be even ambivalent (I'm feeling generous today) about these protests given the large amount of injured PSNI officers and attempted murders of other officers

In fairness we are talking about a member of the Army and not the PSNI.

The British Army is a singular institution.

In the 1970s the hope was for a right wing coup ( which when you consider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column_88 which was tied into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio which carried out massive terrorist attacks in Italy as part of a "strategy of tension was a possibility) that would "deal" with the problems of Northern Ireland with maximum force and minimum concern for human life, at least if it was fenian, among hardline Loyalists.

These days that happening is highly unlikely. What is it that Junder and his friend organizing these protests hopes for now?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Its amazing that a member of the security forces can be even ambivalent (I'm feeling generous today) about these protests given the large amount of injured PSNI officers and attempted murders of other officers

I am TA solider which means part time, I am a full time civilian and while I have not personally taken part In anybprotests I still support my community's right to peaceful protest, which is exactly what has been happening in the community I live in. I do don't live, nor am I part of anything that is going on in east Belfast.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

I am TA solider which means part time, I am a full time civilian and while I have not personally taken part In anybprotests I still support my community's right to peaceful protest, which is exactly what has been happening in the community I live in. I do don't live, nor am I part of anything that is going on in east Belfast.

Since the loyalist community have proven themselves incapable of having peaceful protests over the course of the last month and longer on this topic all protests should be cancelled so things can calm down before someone gets killed

Dont you agree?

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

I am TA solider which means part time, I am a full time civilian and while I have not personally taken part In anybprotests I still support my community's right to peaceful protest, which is exactly what has been happening in the community I live in. I do don't live, nor am I part of anything that is going on in east Belfast.

i also support your communities right to peaceful protest, however...

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Since the loyalist community have proven themselves incapable of having peaceful protests over the course of the last month and longer on this topic all protests should be cancelled so things can calm down before someone gets killed

Dont you agree?

No I don't. I do however believe that other community's should follow my areas example and maintain good relations with the police facilitating the protests and keep the protest entirely peaceful.

sure joe

junder wrote: »

I am TA solider which means part time, I am a full time civilian and while I have not personally taken part In anybprotests I still support my community's right to peaceful protest, which is exactly what has been happening in the community I live in. I do don't live, nor am I part of anything that is going on in east Belfast.

so presumably you would support residents rights to block roads to prevent bigoted organisations like the orange order marching through nationalist areas

GRMA

junder wrote: »

No I don't. I do however believe that other community's should follow my areas example and maintain good relations with the police facilitating the protests and keep the protest entirely peaceful.

These are illegal protests.

You support illegal protests?

junder

sure joe wrote: »

so presumably you would support residents rights to block roads to prevent bigoted organisations like the orange order marching through nationalist areas

as part of maintaining good relations with the police, at thier request the protesters where I live leave one lane open in either direction so traffic can still move, would nationalists be prepared to do the same in a protest?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

These are illegal protests.

You support illegal protests?

They are not illegal where I live, no dispersal order has yet to be issued

GRMA

Blocking roads is illegal. Dispite the reluctance of the PSNI to uphold the law.

Law and Order eh? When it's orange.

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

as part of maintaining good relations with the police, at thier request the protesters where I live leave one lane open in either direction so traffic can still move, would nationalists be prepared to do the same in a protest?

republicans arent currently protesting against democracy

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Blocking roads is illegal. Dispite the reluctance of the PSNI to uphold the law.

Law and Order eh? When it's orange.

A lane free In each direction means the road is not blocked

sure joe

junder wrote: »

as part of maintaining good relations with the police, at thier request the protesters where I live leave one lane open in either direction so traffic can still move, would nationalists be prepared to do the same in a protest?

you say mantaining good relations with the police. given the police were a unionist organisation, there never was any good relations with the nationalist community.

junder

sure joe wrote: »

you say mantaining good relations with the police. given the police were a unionist organisation, there never was any good relations with the nationalist community.

30% of the Psni are catholic, would they be unionist?

GRMA

junder wrote: »

30% of the Psni are catholic, would they be unionist?

30% of the RUC when it was set up were catholic too.

When will people like you learn.

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

30% of the Psni are catholic, would they be unionist?

so nearly 70 % are what? spoonfeeding

SoulandForm

Its ironic that its militant Loyalists and not the Real IRA who have destroyed the illusion of normalization and the "peace process". They obviously want to smash the order created by the GFA; but what do they want in its place? Re-partition along sectarian lines? The nationalist community to develop an affection for British Imperialism and its symbols by making them late getting home in the evenings? A return to the old ways of the first Stormount regime with the ever growing CNR community staying in Northern Ireland; but how to achieve that? This decision was made by a local council and NOT the regional assembly; so deprive the tea eggs and "rotten prods"/lundys of their votes?

SoulandForm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

so nearly 70 % are what? spoonfeeding

I think that the really dangerous elements have been removed from the PSNI. I could be wrong- but I would like proof that I am.

I believe that the UK state wishes to remain in Northern Ireland; therefore it needs its Loyalists mobs as a potential back up so it cant go to hard on them though interestingly enough when the BA arrived in Northern Ireland in 69 they murdered some loyalist kids throwing stones at them which of course has gone forgotten. So the Loyalists can take liberties- but how far can they push the envelop?

junder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxO-7UL70uI

CNN international news report

SoulandForm

Order from Whitehall to help incite violence and so bring an end to the order brought in by the GFA?

Ireland is a very, very funny place sir, its a strange and troubled land...

junder wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxO-7UL70uI

CNN international news report

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Order from Whitehall to help incite violence and so bring an end to the order brought in by the GFA?

Ireland is a very, very funny place sir, its a strange and troubled land...

I think you need to take your tin foil hat of

Thomas_I

junder wrote: »

So because he's a Protestant from Northern Ireland that automatically makes him an authority on the subject. Why doesn't he come down to the area I live in and speak to the employed women behind the protest, these women that are not on drugs or any other stereotypical social problem journalists like to attribute to my community.

The article is concentrated on Belfast, that´s why and there is obviously little interest by the media to go elsewhere in NI, let alone some small towns or villages like where you live where (thankfully to believe in your own words) protests are maintained more peacefully.

SoulandForm

Are you denying that the UK state has a long history of dirty tricks, particularly in Ireland? Just why would the PSNI push the sectarian protesters down a route which was likely to spark to violence if their was another one available? Do you have any ideas?

junder wrote: »

I think you need to take your tin foil hat of

blahfckingblah

sorry junder i appear to have gotten it all wrong its all the nationalists fault... how could i have been so silly

gallag

blahfckingblah wrote: »

sorry junder i appear to have gotten it all wrong its all the nationalists fault... how could i have been so silly

I dont think any rational person would expect you to believe all the blame lies at any one side.

blahfckingblah

gallag wrote: »

I dont think any rational person would expect you to believe all the blame lies at any one side.

true enough but that video would lead you to believe so, if you were naive enough of course

Thomas_I

SoulandForm wrote: »

... Just why would the PSNI push the sectarian protesters down a route which was likely to spark to violence if their was another one available? ...

It doesn´t appear that the PSNI "pushed" them down a route, it´s seems more to be the opposite. They (the prostesters) went down these other route instead to back off.

The whole thing is already so silly. I think the PSNI has got the blame for long enough in this issue. The video on youtube is a well made "Unionist" bias and the purpose is hardly to oversee.

everdead.ie

junder wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxO-7UL70uI

CNN international news report

This isn't a CNN international news report?

This appears to be a home made video made by someone that is promoting young unionists?

blahfckingblah

dont let the truth get in the way of a good story everdead haha

Thomas_I

Maybe the PSNI is working slow, but they´re working and the "silent part" of the people in Belfast are already fed up by this and went to City Hall to protest against violence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21012517

gallag

Look lads, the video evidence is there that peaceful protesters came under attack by youths at the short strand, also, if any of yous know belfast the route blocked by the police would avoide any flash points, why did they do this???

On another day it could well be loyalists starting it but lets get by this pretending all the blame lies with one side, picking what evidence is legit to suit your agenda.

junder

My bad Didn't realise it was a pretend reporter

everdead.ie

junder wrote: »

My bad Didn't realise it was a pretend reporter

There is an actual CNN report which is very even handed.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/12/world/europe/northern-ireland-unrest/


Should also mention I'm surprised that the reporter called them Protestants and Catholics instead of Loyalists and Nationalists the lines are never that clear although maybe they are making these calls after Willie Frazers speech saying they were protestant Unionists( which seems silly to me when I'm sure there are plenty of Catholics happy to remain as part of the UK and consider themselves British).

GRMA

Either way the protest and marching back like that is totally illegal and is the 15th or 16th time it's happened

loveboat captain

everdead.ie wrote: »

There is an actual CNN report which is very even handed.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/12/world/europe/northern-ireland-unrest/


Should also mention I'm surprised that the reporter called them Protestants and Catholics instead of Loyalists and Nationalists the lines are never that clear although maybe they are making these calls after Willie Frazers speech saying they were protestant Unionists( which seems silly to me when I'm sure there are plenty of Catholics happy to remain as part of the UK and consider themselves British).

On the last point there was a survey done recently where 52% of catholicas wanted to remain part of the UK

SoulandForm

everdead.ie wrote: »

Should also mention I'm surprised that the reporter called them Protestants and Catholics instead of Loyalists and Nationalists the lines are never that clear although maybe they are making these calls after Willie Frazers speech saying they were protestant Unionists( which seems silly to me when I'm sure there are plenty of Catholics happy to remain as part of the UK and consider themselves British).

There are of course Unionists with a Catholic background or a Catholic Faith; but how many Catholics do you honestly think are involved in Jamie Bryson's and Willie Frazer's brand of hardline Loyalism?

Thomas_I

everdead.ie wrote: »

There is an actual CNN report which is very even handed.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/12/world/europe/northern-ireland-unrest/


Should also mention I'm surprised that the reporter called them Protestants and Catholics instead of Loyalists and Nationalists the lines are never that clear although maybe they are making these calls after Willie Frazers speech saying they were protestant Unionists( which seems silly to me when I'm sure there are plenty of Catholics happy to remain as part of the UK and consider themselves British).

Not quite so even handed, because CNN shows the Unionists rioting against the PSNI and that was cut out in the youtube video.

I´m not so sure that there are plenty of Catholics being happy to remain as part of the UK and consider themselves British. Not in NI. I rather believe that some of them would rather move to GB where it is not a great deal whether you´re a Catholic or Protestant.