David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

Thomas_I

Neutronale wrote: »

Great picture! It even looks better than the Union Flag on that building. Well, not for all I suppose.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

I call bull**** on their 365 days a year for the last 100 years too.
How to shoot yourself in the foot over and over again.

, I see no mention of city hall only parilment buildings, still if your think your right you should contact bbc and utv and correct their reporting, still what does your 'scoop' actually change?

Thomas_I

junder wrote: »

, I see no mention of city hall only parilment buildings, still if your think your right you should contact bbc and utv and correct their reporting, still what does your 'scoop' actually change?

You won´t give up that issue, won´t you?

Ah yes, your motte still is "No surrender!!!"

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

, I see no mention of city hall only parilment buildings, still if your think your right you should contact bbc and utv and correct their reporting, still what does your 'scoop' actually change?

'Government Buildings' junder, is 'City Hall' a Government building?

What does it change? It changes the veracity of the attempted spin that 'traditions' and 'heritage' are being whittled away.
The reality is that Unionism/Loyalism are cherrypicking issues on the long road to normalisation to make a 'stand', march routes, flags, etc etc. It's like somebody futilely sticking out a leg to attempt to stop a fall off a very steep mountain. :rolleyes:

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

'Government Buildings' junder, is 'City Hall' a Government building?

What does it change? It changes the veracity of the attempted spin that 'traditions' and 'heritage' are being whittled away.
The reality is that Unionism/Loyalism are cherrypicking issues on the long road to normalisation to make a 'stand', march routes, flags, etc etc. It's like somebody futilely sticking out a leg to attempt to stop a fall off a very steep mountain. :rolleyes:

City hall is not a government building, stormont and stormont estates are, city hall is a civic building. And no it still changes nothing

Thomas_I

junder wrote: »

City hall is not a government building, stormont and stormont estates are, city hall is a civic building. And no it still changes nothing

Either you´re missing or rejecting the point Happyman42 made in his post. I suppose that it´s rather the latter in your case. Anyway he´s right because the future of NI can only be in a shared community for all, if your lot doesn´t want that NI goes down the drain.

gallag

Happyman42 wrote: »

'Government Buildings' junder, is 'City Hall' a Government building?

What does it change? It changes the veracity of the attempted spin that 'traditions' and 'heritage' are being whittled away.
The reality is that Unionism/Loyalism are cherrypicking issues on the long road to normalisation to make a 'stand', march routes, flags, etc etc. It's like somebody futilely sticking out a leg to attempt to stop a fall off a very steep mountain. :rolleyes:

Would this "road to normalisation" include renaming play parks and sports facilities named after people that killed civilians by indiscriminate bombing? I bet you only want one community to "normalise" you speek with more vitriol about people protesting the erosion of their culture, preceved or factual, than you do about disidents murdering security forces.

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

City hall is not a government building, stormont and stormont estates are, city hall is a civic building. And no it still changes nothing

:D

Happyman42

gallag wrote: »

Would this "road to normalisation" include renaming play parks and sports facilities named after people that killed civilians by indiscriminate bombing? I bet you only want one community to "normalise" you speek with more vitriol about people protesting the erosion of their culture, preceved or factual, than you do about disidents murdering security forces.

I have always spoken against dissident activity.
I have, in fact, always spoken against foot draggers, that section who show no willingness to change. What the 'flag issue' has shown is that society is far from normal and that there are those who want it to remain that way because that is what their 'cuture' demands. Their identity is stuck is a suprematist past. But it will change, of that I am sure. This is the death throes of a way of life, not a birth or rebirth.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

:D

So from the top? city hall the 'civic building' has been flying the flag for all year round for about 100 years. The present stormont policy is Actully a continuation of the old unionist majorty stormont flag policy on ' 'government buildings'

SoulandForm

SoulandForm wrote: »

How on earth is an non-sectarian Republican Socialist party close political friends with a sectarian Imperialist monarchist party?

Junder I would like an answer to this and I will be asking people I know in the Workers Party here. The Official IRA has not disarmed and is only waiting for the correct time to launch armed struggle. That makes them far from close to political friends of militant Unionists now doesnt it?

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Junder I would like an answer to this and I will be asking people I know in the Workers Party here. The Official IRA has not disarmed and is only waiting for the correct time to launch armed struggle. That makes them far from close to political friends of militant Unionists now doesnt it?

There has long been a respect between the two party's pup members have been attending worker party conferences and worker party members have been attending pup conferences. Even in the prisons there was a respect between the UVF and oira. The party that the workers party hates is Sinn Fein. And I to have friends who are members of the workers party.
Although what is of interest is if you truly believe that the workers party /oira are waiting for the right time to go back to violence, why are you voting for them? Going by your posts it would all most seem as if you wish to see a return to the troubles

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

So from the top? city hall the 'civic building' has been flying the flag for all year round for about 100 years. The present stormont policy is Actully a continuation of the old unionist majorty stormont flag policy on ' 'government buildings'

Well, I simply don't believe that, a quick look on Google for vintage Belfast photos will show that there is considerable doubt about it's presence on 365 days of the year.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6070/6080249137_6f3fa9fba7_z.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88051129@N00/4541484538/in/pool-461824@N21/lightbox/

It also throws up this gem which those willing to 'fight and riot to the death' would do well to think hard about. They are being played here by others with a filthy political agenda.
Cutural and traditional rights my ass! :rolleyes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/architect_traveller/965400370/in/pool-461824@N21/

*Anybody know what that was about? ^

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

There has long been a respect between the two party's pup members have been attending worker party conferences and worker party members have been attending pup conferences. Even in the prisons there was a respect between the UVF and oira. The party that the workers party hates is Sinn Fein. And I to have friends who are members of the workers party.
Although what is of interest is if you truly believe that the workers party /oira are waiting for the right time to go back to violence, why are you voting for them? Going by your posts it would all most seem as if you wish to see a return to the troubles

No links I see.

Im against pointless violence, not violence per se. The Provisional campaign was wrong because the conditions did not exist for a successful armed struggle and because it degenerated into sectarianism at times- so no I dont wish to see a return to that. The OIRA have not decommissioned- that should tell you all you need to know.

The Workers Party strongly believe that there is one Irish people that includes Ulster Protestants- something that you claimed you and your friend found highly offensive, "denying your British identity, blah, blah, blah".

Of course they dislike Sinn Fein.

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

Even in the prisons there was a respect between the UVF and oira.

Respect between non-sectarian Republican Socialists and cold-blooded sectarian murderers? :rolleyes:

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Respect between non-sectarian Republican Socialists and cold-blooded sectarian murderers? :rolleyes:

Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. Perhaps you should actlly talk to somebody from the walkers party based in Belfast

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. Perhaps you should actlly talk to somebody from the walkers party based in Belfast

To be honest the further I am away from Belfast the better as far as Im concerned. However your post is crazy.

Are you denying that the OIRA were Republican Socialists?

Are you denying that the UVF were sectarian Unionist murderers?

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Well, I simply don't believe that, a quick look on Google for vintage Belfast photos will show that there is considerable doubt about it's presence on 365 days of the year.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6070/6080249137_6f3fa9fba7_z.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88051129@N00/4541484538/in/pool-461824@N21/lightbox/

It also throws up this gem which those willing to 'fight and riot to the death' would do well to think hard about. They are being played here by others with a filthy political agenda.
Cutural and traditional rights my ass! :rolleyes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/architect_traveller/965400370/in/pool-461824@N21/

*Anybody know what that was about? ^

These guys seem to disagree

http://belfastmediagroup.com/a-century-on-tide-of-change-is-irresistible/

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

To be honest the further I am away from Belfast the better as far as Im concerned. However your post is crazy.

Are you denying that the OIRA were Republican Socialists?

Are you denying that the UVF were sectarian Unionist murderers?

Your post is ill informed, ervine attended many a workers party conference as did gusty spence, both have spoke at worker party conferences as invited guests. The UVF and oira worked very closey together in prisons to improve prisoner conditions,both organisations developed a healthy respect for each other that moved from the prisons into the outside world as former combatants followed their individual political paths, this is common information available in history books, try reading some

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

Your post is ill informed, ervine attended many a workers party conference as did gusty spence, both have spoke at worker party conferences as invited guests. The UVF and oira worked very closey together in prisons to improve prisoner conditions,both organisations developed a healthy respect for each other that moved from the prisons into the outside world as former combatants followed their individual political paths, this is common information available in history books, try reading some

The OIRA were combatants, the UVF were simple murderers.

How on earth could the OIRA develop a healthy respect for people who murdered civilians just because of their religious background when part of the reason for their break with the Provisionals was about legitimate targets?

The Workers Party is Anti-Imperialist; PUP is pro-British soldiers. Seriously, the two organizations have nothing in common.

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

The OIRA were combatants, the UVF were simple murderers.

How on earth could the OIRA develop a healthy respect for people who murdered civilians just because of their religious background when part of the reason for their break with the Provisionals was about legitimate targets?

The Workers Party is Anti-Imperialist; PUP is pro-British soldiers. Seriously, the two organizations have nothing in common.

Yeah cause its that simple like.

UVF victims were obviously selected on sectarian lines but they targeted Catholics for political reasons. If it was simple murder then why aren't they butchering a catholic every week like the early 90s?

The UVF does not equal the PUP either, the connection between them is far less tangible than that of Sinn Fein/PIRA was.

You're making an absolute fool of yourself here. Official Sinn Fein/workers party have been calling for socialism and working class unity over militarism since the 70s, of course they're going to have respect and seek dialogue with a party that aims to represent loyalist working class.

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Yeah cause its that simple like.

UVF victims were obviously selected on sectarian lines but they targeted Catholics for political reasons. If it was simple murder then why aren't they butchering a catholic every week like the early 90s?

The UVF does not equal the PUP either, the connection between them is far less tangible than that of Sinn Fein/PIRA was.

You're making an absolute fool of yourself here. Official Sinn Fein/workers party have been calling for socialism and working class unity over militarism since the 70s, of course they're going to have respect and seek dialogue with a party that aims to represent loyalist working class.

You could say that the Provisionals targeted the workers at Kingsmills for political reasons also- that doesnt stop it being sectarian murder. The UVF were sectarian butchers plain and simple.

Loyalism is militaristic, both in its worship of the British Army and in its own activities; just like their counterparts in the EDL attacked students demonstrating against students loans on the UK mainland they would be on the forefront of opposition if a serious socialist movement arose in this country. The actual unionist working class while not wanting a united Ireland dont have much time at all for the lumpen bully boys that make up the Loyalist militants. What is there to dialogue about with them?

The left wing of the Alliance Party who actually want an end to the sectarian divide and the best for everybody are people you can talk too- the very people that Loyalists have been recently attacking.

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

You could say that the Provisionals targeted the workers at Kingsmills for political reasons also- that doesnt stop it being sectarian murder. The UVF were sectarian butchers plain and simple.

Of course they were sectarian, but in your previous post you're going on as if it wasn't for political reasons and was just out of hatred for catholics. Thankfully members of the workers party obviously grasp this concept better than you do.

Loyalism is militaristic, both in its worship of the British Army and in its own activities; just like their counterparts in the EDL attacked students demonstrating against students loans on the UK mainland they would be on the forefront of opposition if a serious socialist movement arose in this country. The actual unionist working class while not wanting a united Ireland dont have much time at all for the lumpen bully boys that make up the Loyalist militants. What is there to dialogue about with them?

Perhaps they think it would be for the best if people understood each other better and sectarian division came to an end.

The left wing of the Alliance Party who actually want an end to the sectarian divide and the best for everybody are people you can talk too- the very people that Loyalists have been recently attacking.

What the left wing of the most right wing party in Northern Ireland? They don't represent anyone in loyalism (right wing in economic terms obviously, they're very liberal on social issues)

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

UVF victims were obviously selected on sectarian lines but they targeted Catholics for political reasons. If it was simple murder then why aren't they butchering a catholic every week like the early 90s?

The UVF does not equal the PUP either, the connection between them is far less tangible than that of Sinn Fein/PIRA was.

They started murdering people on a sectarian basis before the IRA went back into action and they could well start murdering people on a sectarian basis again.

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

What the left wing of the most right wing party in Northern Ireland? They don't represent anyone in loyalism (right wing in economic terms obviously, they're very liberal on social issues)

Hardly the most right wing. The Alliance Party has a mix people- its a very broad Church so to speak.

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

Hardly the most right wing. The Alliance Party has a mix people- its a very broad Church so to speak.

THey take the Lib Dem whip at Westminister. They're pro-free market and probably the only economically right wing party in Northern Ireland.

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Perhaps they think it would be for the best if people understood each other better and sectarian division came to an end.

We are not talking about theology here; we are talking about politics. A political divide.

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

THey take the Lib Dem whip at Westminister. They're pro-free market and probably the only economically right wing party in Northern Ireland.

More than the TUV and UUP?

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

More than the TUV and UUP?

Most certainly in economic terms. Alliance would be far more pro free market than state services than those two

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner do accept that the Provos are a lot more progressive than PUP and the UVF?

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Most certainly in economic terms. Alliance would be far more pro free market than state services than those two

Not true. David Vance is best friends with American Libertarians ffs!

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

No I dont its a fact. Take a look at your TV screen sometime.

Of course its a fact, just nothing to do with the question I posed. Early 90s loyalists were killing 50 catholics a year +, don't know how that's being kept out of the news

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

Dubhlinner do accept that the Provos are a lot more progressive than PUP and the UVF?

Could you clarify what you mean by that? Who do you mean by provos? If you mean IRA I am unsure why you phrased that in present tense? If you mean provisional Sinn Fein I think PUP have more progressive policies on education and sectarianism.

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Could you clarify what you mean by that? Who do you mean by provos? If you mean IRA I am unsure why you phrased that in present tense? If you mean provisional Sinn Fein I think PUP have more progressive policies on education and sectarianism.

WOW.

PUP are more progressive than PSF on sectarianism?

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

WOW.

PUP are more progressive than PSF on sectarianism?

Yes they actually have a policy.

Education

- Financial incentives for parents to enrol their children into integrated schools. Integrated education is vital to removing fear and suspicion between the two communities in Northern Ireland. It is unacceptable that our children are educated separately for the first sixteen years of their lives because of their parents’ religious beliefs. The PUP will work to increase participation in integrated education across NI.

Community Relations

The Progressive Unionist Party have led the way in forging improved relations between the Irish and British communities within Northern Ireland. We were the first Unionist party to understand that if we make NI’s Nationalist community feel like this is as much their country as ours then support for a United Ireland will drop to levels which will make it unlikely to ever occur. The PUP have developed constructive links with Nationalist leaders to create cross-community relationships, combat sectarianism and stamp out interface violence. We support:

- Harsher penalties for anyone convicted of sectarian attacks in NI. Religiously motivated crimes are an ongoing problem for Northern Ireland society. Orange halls, Protestant churches, GAA clubs and homes on either side of interfaces are regular targets for sectarian attacks. The PUP calls for harsher punishment for those convicted of sectarian attacks to deter others who plan similar violence.

- Joint Irish/British cultural events. Northern Ireland is lucky to have two rich cultures currently flourishing in the country. The PUP will continue to encourage current initiatives to bring the orange and green cultures together. The recent joint parade with the Orange Order and Catholic Ancient Order of Hibernians Group is testament to what can be achieved when forward thinking people cross the divide. Not only are these relationships good for the people of Northern Ireland – but events like these could also increase tourism revenue.

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Yes they actually have a policy.

The very fact that they talk about British and Irish shows just how sectarian they really are- either all of us Irish and all and all of us are British or neither of us are. There need to deny their connection to the rest of the island should raise alarm bells. Any Jamie Byrson was involved in so-called "anti-sectarian" activism before he rose to the front with the flag row, Willie Frazer claimed that FAIR was "non-sectarian". PR to keep the grant money flowing does not change the reactionary nature of Loyalism.

SoulandForm

Also the Orange Order and the Ancient Order of Hiberians are two utterly contemptible sectarian organizations. It would be best if both didnt exist. If they are your idea of culture than you have a serious problem.

Dubhlinner

SoulandForm wrote: »

The very fact that they talk about British and Irish shows just how sectarian they really are- either all of us Irish and all and all of us are British or neither of us are. There need to deny their connection to the rest of the island should raise alarm bells. Any Jamie Byrson was involved in so-called "anti-sectarian" activism before he rose to the front with the flag row, Willie Frazer claimed that FAIR was "non-sectarian". PR to keep the grant money flowing does not change the reactionary nature of Loyalism.

I'm getting awfully tired of you sidestepping questions when it doesn't suit your argument. Have a good night, I'm away for a pint.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

The very fact that they talk about British and Irish shows just how sectarian they really are- either all of us Irish and all and all of us are British or neither of us are. There need to deny their connection to the rest of the island should raise alarm bells. Any Jamie Byrson was involved in so-called "anti-sectarian" activism before he rose to the front with the flag row, Willie Frazer claimed that FAIR was "non-sectarian". PR to keep the grant money flowing does not change the reactionary nature of Loyalism.

Very hard not to say something to you without earning an infraction, so nationality now equates to sectarianism, somebody defining themselves as either Irish or British is a sectarian statement, either your an idiot or you must be 14 years old

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

Very hard not to say something to you without earning an infraction, so nationality now equates to sectarianism, somebody defining themselves as either Irish or British is a sectarian statement, either your an idiot or you must be 14 years old

British is not a nationality; English, Welsh, Scottish, etc is.

Do you deny that people in Northern Ireland have more in common with each other than anyone else?

So if Nationalists are Irish, how are you not? Unless you hate your neighbours so much that you want to pathetically claim that they are not your countrymen and women.

Its not rocket science.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

British is not a nationality; English, Welsh, Scottish, etc is.

Do you deny that people in Northern Ireland have more in common with each other than anyone else?

So if Nationalists are Irish, how are you not? Unless you hate your neighbours so much that you want to pathetically claim that they are not your countrymen and women.

Its not rocket science.

I am not Irish, i am northern Irish and a British citizen, however other people define themselves is thier own buisness

ardmacha

i am northern Irish and a British citizen

I am eastern Irish and not British in the least.
Why do British people come and try and colonise me?

junder

ardmacha wrote: »

I am eastern Irish and not British in the least.
Why do British people come and try and colonise me?

Wow it's amazing to meet somebody who is near 300 years old

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

I am not Irish, i am northern Irish and a British citizen, however other people define themselves is thier own buisness

LOL...No its not.

Males dont have periods do they how ever much they may want to define themselves as women?

So do you really believe that Nationalists in Northern Ireland belong to a different nationality than you do?

Once you start thinking about it it becomes very, very silly; though in the actual context its pretty sinister.

glic71rods46t0

I wonder how may people are protesting the flag tonight with the nice weather!
Probably the same number of people as are protesting in Drumcree:rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

LOL...No its not.

Males dont have periods do they how ever much they may want to define themselves as women?

So do you really believe that Nationalists in Northern Ireland belong to a different nationality than you do?

Once you start thinking about it it becomes very, very silly; though in the actual context its pretty sinister.

What to you defines a nationality?

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

LOL...No its not.

Males dont have periods do they how ever much they may want to define themselves as women?

So do you really believe that Nationalists in Northern Ireland belong to a different nationality than you do?

Once you start thinking about it it becomes very, very silly; though in the actual context its pretty sinister.

Many people born male now define themselves as women, so what's your point? And yes many Irish nationalists have a define themselves as a different nationality that's why they carry Irish passports, I carry a British passport so by definition I am a different nationality. An African can settle in either part of the island and go through the nationalisation process and become 'Irish' or 'British'

junder

twa0kimob95e4u wrote: »

I wonder how may people are protesting the flag tonight with the nice weather!
Probably the same number of people as are protesting in Drumcree:rolleyes:

There was a protest where I live

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

There was a protest where I live

There was an ice cream van where I live today, didn't do much.:D

junder wrote: »

These guys seem to disagree

http://belfastmediagroup.com/a-century-on-tide-of-change-is-irresistible/

At what point do you engage with what is actually being presented to you?

glic71rods46t0

junder wrote: »

There was a protest where I live

Was there many out? Any riots??? Not much media coverage this evening - the snow seems to be more newsworthy for some reason!