David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

So tell me where the missing flag poles are then? All 5 of them

Before you go all CSI Belfast Junder, you have the links to the original photos, take them into any photo software and zoom in 2 o 3 clicks, if you find any pixel distortion, get back to us.
Alternatively, if you are suggesting that somebody had the foresight of the flags crisis and doctored random photos on flickr and then posted them 7 or 8 years ago to await me and you finding them....then we will have to have a meeting of the house Sanity Committee!

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Before you go all CSI Belfast Junder, you have the links to the original photos, take them into any photo software and zoom in 2 o 3 clicks, if you find any pixel distortion, get back to us.
Alternatively, if you are suggesting that somebody had the foresight of the flags crisis and doctored random photos on flickr and then posted them 7 or 8 years ago to await me and you finding them....then we will have to have a meeting of the house Sanity Committee!

And you have.links to 3 sepperate articules, including one for the media group that owns the andytown news all of the confirming that the union flag has flown over city hall since it was built, your only evidence is photos that cold have been posted by literally anybody so I guess it comes down to your vrs the media, so explain to be how all three links are wrong other then just because you say so, perhaps then you can tell us when it did start flying 365 days a year, since its been flying evertday since i was born and im no spring chicken, I'm sure flicker will tell you

junder

blahfckingblah wrote: »

rich coming from the person dragging homosexuality into a thread about the union flag

Thik you will find it was your buddy soulandform brought the issue of gender idenity into this thread

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

And you have.links to 3 sepperate articules, including one for the media group that owns the andytown news all of the confirming that the union flag has flown over city hall since it was built, your only evidence is photos that cold have been posted by literally anybody so I guess it comes down to your vrs the media, so explain to be how all three links are wrong other then just because you say so, perhaps then you can tell us when it did start flying 365 days a year, since its been flying evertday since i was born and im no spring chicken, I'm sure flicker will tell you

There are many many more pics out there on google of City Hall without the flag, from 1910 on. The claims your sources are making are untested. Newspapers make claims all the time, just because it is in print doesn't mean it's true. Ask Lord Levenson.

My point is, (and you can do the deliberately obtuse act as much as you like, you ain't fooling anybody) is that flying the flag was never all that important (you still haven't had a stab at explaining how the two tricolours got to be hanging outside) until the DUP and UUP decided that they wanted Naomi Long's seat back. They then escalated this into the crisis it became by rabble rousing a community that is as disenfranchised and disaffected as their nationalist ccunterparts.
It's a cynical, dangerous excercise that has blown up in their faces.
When that happens in the Unionist fraternity you generally see the protests fade away (Garvaghy Road, Ulster Says NO etc) and nobody calls them on it. Then they do it all over again over some other spurious 'tradition'. Pathetic really.

*I think the flag might have become a trenchantly permanent feature sometime around the Ulster Says No campaign. I'd love one of the so called 'independent' newspapers to do a trawl of their photo archives.

junder

Doesn't like the protests are dying out

R P McMurphy

junder wrote: »

Doesn't like the protests are dying out

Could you sum up what the protests want to achieve at this point. I think you said you didnt attend any but probably know people that do. What is the point, is it to reverse the decision of BCC and fly the union flag every day or even if that decision was taken would they continue about something else. Not trying to be antoganistic, just trying to understand where it is going

junder

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Could you sum up what the protests want to achieve at this point. I think you said you didnt attend any but probably know people that do. What is the point, is it to reverse the decision of BCC and fly the union flag every day or even if that decision was taken would they continue about something else. Not trying to be antoganistic, just trying to understand where it is going

To be honest, I don't know, in the past it was east to define the objectives as it was normally a single person or party directing things. These protests are coming from the grass roots, from individual community's. it appears to be a radicalisation of the loyalist working class, beyound the control of main stream unionist party's

Madam

junder wrote: »

To be honest, I don't know, in the past it was east to define the objectives as it was normally a single person or party directing things. These protests are coming from the grass roots, from individual community's. it appears to be a radicalisation of the loyalist working class, beyound the control of main stream unionist party's

In other words 'mob rule'?

Happyman42

Madam wrote: »

In other words 'mob rule'?

Absolutely, they have a love affair with bringing Ulster to a standstill. Only difference now is they don't have a pile of sympathy in Westminister.

junder

Madam wrote: »

In other words 'mob rule'?

Call it what you want, not going to Change things or stop things.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Absolutely, they have a love affair with bringing Ulster to a standstill. Only difference now is they don't have a pile of sympathy in Westminister.

Have you found out when the flag started being flown 365 days a year from city hall or have you contacted the andytown news and the Belfast telegraph the error of their reporting, been there everyday since I was born and I'm no spring chicken, my mother all so said its been flying since she was born and she is a child of the 50's

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

Have you found out when the flag started being flown 365 days a year from city hall or have you contacted the andytown news and the Belfast telegraph the error of their reporting, been there everyday since I was born and I'm no spring chicken, my mother all so said its been flying since she was born and she is a child of the 50's

Explain it's abscene in the pics then,(your ma's recollections are hardly evidence) also, still awaiting your explanation of the Tricolour being there. It would never be because once upon a time the flag being there wasn't that important? (which is my point)

p.s. Even the partisan Telegraph doesn't consider the protest newsworthy anymore. Will be a non issue in a month after all the damage to the Unionist cause and image.
Foot mostly certainly shot!
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Explain it's abscene in the pics then,(your ma's recollections are hardly evidence) also, still awaiting your explanation of the Tricolour being there. It would never be because once upon a time the flag being there wasn't that important? (which is my point)

p.s. Even the partisan Telegraph doesn't consider the protest newsworthy anymore. Will be a non issue in a month after all the damage to the Unionist cause and image.
Foot mostly certainly shot!
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/

And your unsubstantiated flicker photos are not evidence either

ardmacha

And your unsubstantiated flicker photos are not evidence either

These photographs are evidence.
There is no evidence that the flag flew non stop on the Belfast City Hall since 1906. At some point a decision may have been made to fly it more often, more recently a decision was made to fly it less often.

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

And your unsubstantiated flicker photos are not evidence either

You should do some research about photoshopping and original pics junder. What I presented was an untouched or altered selection of random pics (a selection from many) that show the flag being absent. What you have presented is repeated heresay, you haven't even presented a motion to council to back up this 'unalienable tradition':rolleyes: The burden of proof is on Unionists.
Still waiting on a possible explanation of how the Tricolours were 'allowed' at one time but they are anathema now.



I'm determined to track down what that event was.

Thomas_I

SoulandForm wrote: »

Do you really honestly believe that people in Northern Ireland are two separate nations? ...

Yes, I for one reason believe that this is a fact because this has been the core of the troubles in NI even before partition. The "Religion" thing was just an abuse of the Unionists / Loyalists to distiguish themselves from the Irish.

If you are going to reject that fact, than you´re not merely missing the point for the reasons of what happened in the past 100 years in NI, you´re also missing the core of the problem to bring NI to a lasting peace.

Thomas_I

junder wrote: »

I am not Irish, i am northern Irish and a British citizen, however other people define themselves is thier own buisness

If I wouldn´t be that sure that your reference towards the term "northern Irish" wouldn´t be just a geographical one, I would see it as if you´re going to have some "progress" in your thinking. Good to know that you´re still the same.

At least, I know what your meaning of your statement is about.

You sure that there is not a single Irish ancestor in your line? What if you´d find out that it´s otherwise than you think and for some reasons such an Irish ancestor has been hidden, would that make you less British?

gallag

As yous know I am a unionist, but I dont object to being referred to as irish, I am from northern ireland after all, the same as n.koreans and s.koreans are both koreans but from very different countries. I dont reject irishness, I truly believe ireland is a fantastic country and encourage my children to embrace their own "irishness" I.e my daughter is looking forward to joining my neice at irish dancing class (to younge atm). But I suppose my political aspirations would deveate from traditional unionist aspirations as I believe the end goal to be a united ireland within the UK.

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

As yous know I am a unionist, but I dont object to being referred to as irish, I am from northern ireland after all, the same as n.koreans and s.koreans are both koreans but from very different countries. I dont reject irishness, I truly believe ireland is a fantastic country and encourage my children to embrace their own "irishness" I.e my daughter is looking forward to joining my neice at irish dancing class (to younge atm). But I suppose my political aspirations would deveate from traditional unionist aspirations as I believe the end goal to be a united ireland within the UK.

I can´t see any reason for why that should happen again (a united ireland within the UK).

junder

Thomas_I wrote: »

If I wouldn´t be that sure that your reference towards the term "northern Irish" wouldn´t be just a geographical one, I would see it as if you´re going to have some "progress" in your thinking. Good to know that you´re still the same.

At least, I know what your meaning of your statement is about.

You sure that there is not a single Irish ancestor in your line? What if you´d find out that it´s otherwise than you think and for some reasons such an Irish ancestor has been hidden, would that make you less British?

The chances are I have Viking, Norman, Saxon and thanks to the Roman Empire ancestors from far Eastern Europe, I am not what my ancestors where, I am what I am now and that is northern Irish and a British citizen

gallag

Thomas_I wrote: »

I can´t see any reason for why that should happen again (a united ireland within the UK).

And I cant see any reason why n.ireland would choise to align itself with the politically corrupt south and emburden their children with the debt the south has amassed and accept worse public services I.e no NHS etc.
I would imagine its more likely that ireland will be bankrupt, and when the hospitals, schools etc start closing, probably coinciding with another Dail/public services pay rise the people will start to question if the free state project has been successful and look for an alternative.
I imagine that that a child born in Dublin today could be the prime minister of the united kingdom of great Britain and ireland.

The only real challenge will be getting the British people on board with the idea, but I would imagine having a joint policy on corporation tax and the billions saved from n.i would help swing it.
How many people in ireland would vote to join the uk just for the free health care let alone being dissatisfied with their curopt government?

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

How many people in ireland would vote to join the uk just for the free health care

An insignificant percentage imho. Also, healthcare isn't 'free'. Someone pays somehow.

let alone being dissatisfied with their curopt government?

There is massive dissatisfaction with our tag-team shower of fuck-wits in the Dail but, on balance, people don't have it too bad here.

Thomas_I

junder wrote: »

The chances are I have Viking, Norman, Saxon and thanks to the Roman Empire ancestors from far Eastern Europe, I am not what my ancestors where, I am what I am now and that is northern Irish and a British citizen

"The chances are" what?

I´m not refering to tribes like Vikings, Normans, Saxons or some from far Eastern Europe in regards to the term "ancestory". Precisely it´s whether your ancestors who settled in Ulster during the plantation came from Scotland, England or maybe Wales. The reference goes to these countries and equal ethnic definition.

Well, I leave it to you to define yourself as you like it for it is your choice to do so. Just remember this, you can´t get rid of your ancestors whether you like it or not and even your own "modern" defintion of your being "northern Irish and a British citizen" doesn´t alter that. Maybe your definition might be something others of your lot as well could get accustomed to.

At least the Ulster-Scots are some people who know about their heritage and have no reason to hid it. That deserves some respect indeed.

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

The chances are I have Viking, Norman, Saxon and thanks to the Roman Empire ancestors from far Eastern Europe, I am not what my ancestors where, I am what I am now and that is northern Irish and a British citizen

seems like its in your blood to embrace a change in cultures

Happyman42

gallag wrote: »

How many people in ireland would vote to join the uk just for the free health care let alone being dissatisfied with their curopt government?

How many would jump from the frying pan into the fire, you mean?
On a scale of corruption and immoral governance, Ireland is in the ha-penny place in comparison to Britian, as it runs around bowing and scraping and prostituting itself to the real world powers in an attempt to convince it's citizens that it is still a world player.
You are making a disgusting comparison. A coterie of amatuer politicians ****ed up here, we'll get through it and learn the lessons and move on.

Iwasfrozen

blahfckingblah wrote: »

seems like its in your blood to embrace a change in cultures

Seems like it's in your blood to be colonised. Now don't be ridiculous.

gallag

Happyman42 wrote: »

How many would jump from the frying pan into the fire, you mean?
On a scale of corruption and immoral governance, Ireland is in the ha-penny place in comparison to Britian, as it runs around bowing and scraping and prostituting itself to the real world powers in an attempt to convince it's citizens that it is still a world player.
You are making a disgusting comparison. A coterie of amatuer politicians ****ed up here, we'll get through it and learn the lessons and move on.

So is GB not a world player?

http://www.economywatch.com/economies-in-top/?page=full

Is your hate maby blinding you?

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

And I cant see any reason why n.ireland would choise to align itself with the politically corrupt south and emburden their children with the debt the south has amassed and accept worse public services I.e no NHS etc.

Excuse me? Your argument sounds a bit funny to me given that you´re suggesting that the UK has no deficit and all the UK Governments went down the road all just honourable.

gallag wrote: »

I would imagine its more likely that ireland will be bankrupt, and when the hospitals, schools etc start closing, probably coinciding with another Dail/public services pay rise the people will start to question if the free state project has been successful and look for an alternative.

Following the Scottish pattern leading to the act of Union in 1707? Hopefully this won´t happen. Besides, the Scottish may decide otherwise next year.

gallag wrote: »

I imagine that that a child born in Dublin today could be the prime minister of the united kingdom of great Britain and ireland.

It´s possible that a child born in Dublin today could be the PM of the UK in the future, given that the child will be taken to the mainland UK, raised there and the UK itself will still exist when it is grown up. The other thing is rather like a joke.

gallag wrote: »

The only real challenge will be getting the British people on board with the idea, but I would imagine having a joint policy on corporation tax and the billions saved from n.i would help swing it.
How many people in ireland would vote to join the uk just for the free health care let alone being dissatisfied with their curopt government?

Wait for it when PM Cameron resumes his attempt to abolish the free health care. The "Master of austerities" surely has yet some "goodies" in his pocket and then watch the riots across the UK again as it happened in 2011.

Once again, according to your post it doesn´t counts what the reality is. Well, it´s just your dreaming.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

... in comparison to Britian, as it runs around bowing and scraping and prostituting itself to the real world powers in an attempt to convince it's citizens that it is still a world player...

That statement is imo too rude and by all means, the UK doesn´t deserves such slandering. I just like to remember that it was the UK Government who helped the Irish Government financially during the recent Bank crisis.

Madam

Thomas_I wrote: »

That statement is imo too rude and by all means, the UK doesn´t deserves such slandering. I just like to remember that it was the UK Government who helped the Irish Government financially during the recent Bank crisis.

I think you'll find a few other countries whipped in as well(I personally don't mind helping out my neighbour when they find themselves in difficulty - that just what a good neighbour does;))!

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

That statement is imo too rude and by all means, the UK doesn´t deserves such slandering. I just like to remember that it was the UK Government who helped the Irish Government financially during the recent Bank crisis.

The British helped us because it was solely in their interests that we didn't go under. It had nothing to do with generosity. They are in fact as much up the swaney as us in many respects.
However, I don't mean to imply that I 'hate' the British, I don't, I just get angry when Irish people buy into the idea that they are more moral or superior as a government. Not when I read something like this anyway and think of what else is to come as the secrets come out about what went on when they had the power to stop the carnage and put the lid back on. This is stuff that affected REAL Irish people, approved by a government some would want governing them.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0119/1224329033796.html

Chuck Stone

Thomas_I wrote: »

I just like to remember that it was the UK Government who helped the Irish Government financially during the recent Bank crisis.

The UK govt. was merely protecting British national interests (big business/finance).

Chancellor George Osborne has told MPs it is in the UK interest to join a rescue package for the Irish economy - including a direct bilateral loan.

He said Ireland was a "friend in need", a major trading partner with a banking sector closely linked to the UK's.

bbc.co.uk/news

If Ireland had gone tits-up British business/finance would have suffered massive losses.

junder

Thomas_I wrote: »

"The chances are" what?

I´m not refering to tribes like Vikings, Normans, Saxons or some from far Eastern Europe in regards to the term "ancestory". Precisely it´s whether your ancestors who settled in Ulster during the plantation came from Scotland, England or maybe Wales. The reference goes to these countries and equal ethnic definition.

Well, I leave it to you to define yourself as you like it for it is your choice to do so. Just remember this, you can´t get rid of your ancestors whether you like it or not and even your own "modern" defintion of your being "northern Irish and a British citizen" doesn´t alter that. Maybe your definition might be something others of your lot as well could get accustomed to.

At least the Ulster-Scots are some people who know about their heritage and have no reason to hid it. That deserves some respect indeed.

And I have a traceable and fascinating ulster-scot heretige and history that goes back to the Scottish Borders lands (which is where my eastern European ancestry comes, since one of the last roman legions that got left behind at hadrians wall when the empire collapsed where from what is now Slovakia, but I digress) however we are constantly told by certain Irish people that ulster - scot is not an idenity, so which is it?

Thomas_I

junder wrote: »

And I have a traceable and fascinating ulster-scot heretige and history that goes back to the Scottish Borders lands (which is where my eastern European ancestry comes, since one of the last roman legions that got left behind at hadrians wall when the empire collapsed where from what is now Slovakia, but I digress) however we are constantly told by certain Irish people that ulster - scot is not an idenity, so which is it?

Never mind them saying so, because "Ulster-Scot" is an identity imo because it has the link to the Scottish who settled in Ulster. So you´re one of them in this regards. Well, you can tell me on here what you like, I can´t scrutinize it if it´s not true. What makes you think it´s better to "call yourself northern Irish British citizen" than to plain state you´re a "Ulster-Scot"?

Thomas_I

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The UK govt. was merely protecting British national interests (big business/finance).

Chancellor George Osborne has told MPs it is in the UK interest to join a rescue package for the Irish economy - including a direct bilateral loan.

He said Ireland was a "friend in need", a major trading partner with a banking sector closely linked to the UK's.

bbc.co.uk/news

If Ireland had gone tits-up British business/finance would have suffered massive losses.

So for the reasons you said, does this help appeare in your opinion as less honourable? I wouldn´t mind these reasons because when Ireland can benefit from the UK protecting its own national interests, I see no moral or whatsoever problem in taking the help offered. They offered it to Ireland, not the other way round. "Ireland - a friend in need" means nothing to you?

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

The British helped us because it was solely in their interests that we didn't go under. It had nothing to do with generosity. They are in fact as much up the swaney as us in many respects.
However, I don't mean to imply that I 'hate' the British, I don't, I just get angry when Irish people buy into the idea that they are more moral or superior as a government. Not when I read something like this anyway and think of what else is to come as the secrets come out about what went on when they had the power to stop the carnage and put the lid back on. This is stuff that affected REAL Irish people, approved by a government some would want governing them.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0119/1224329033796.html

I wouldn´t expect generosity from the UK in the light of the mess they´re in themselves, but at least they stepped forward. The interpretation of that by other Irish people in re of the UK being more moral or superior is another thing. I wouldn´t buy that idea because it´s far from the truth.

junder

Thomas_I wrote: »

Never mind them saying so, because "Ulster-Scot" is an identity imo because it has the link to the Scottish who settled in Ulster. So you´re one of them in this regards. Well, you can tell me on here what you like, I can´t scrutinize it if it´s not true. What makes you think it´s better to "call yourself northern Irish British citizen" than to plain state you´re a "Ulster-Scot"?

Because Northern Ireland is the name of the country I live in er go northern Irish. Another reason and the last census seems to agree is that northern Irish is an idenity that both community's can live with

GRMA

The UK gave us a loan. they will get paid back with interest. they only did so because if we collapsed (the banks) so would have many of theirs. Same as the reason Germany needed to bail us out, their banks were massively exposed to Irish banks.

None of this bailout malarkey going on has anything to do with generosity, it has everything to do with saving their own skin.

Lingua Franca

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696

Check out how much Ireland owes the UK... and how much the UK owes Ireland.

gallag

The bailout loans to ireland are a pittance to the irish economy compared to the ability for many irish people to find work in the UK, the UK and ireland are already intertwined, reforming will be a small step.

Happyman42

gallag wrote: »

The bailout loans to ireland are a pittance to the irish economy compared to the ability for many irish people to find work in the UK, the UK and ireland are already intertwined, reforming will be a small step.

Maybe when they face up to how disastrous their intervention in other countries has been for the indigneous people and stop doing it, we might consider teaching them the benefits of neutrality and giving true & generous foreign aid. Joining them in a union?...nope, not gonna happen.

gallag

Happyman42 wrote: »

Maybe when they face up to how disastrous their intervention in other countries has been for the indigneous people and stop doing it, we might consider teaching them the benefits of neutrality and giving true & generous foreign aid. Joining them in a union?...nope, not gonna happen.

You can only be neutral when you know other people will protect you, I would imagine if the mainland did not exist ireland would be a french colony, ireland does not choose to be neutral, it has no choice. if the shoe was on the other foot and ireland happend to be the big island do you think think things would be diffrent? And the UK gives massive amounts of foreign aid, without winging about it. You aspire for a united ireland, I aspire for a united kingdom, none of us can say its not going to happen but I believe Ireland reforming is more likely.

GRMA

Mainland :rolleyes:

karma_

junder wrote: »

And I have a traceable and fascinating ulster-scot heretige and history that goes back to the Scottish Borders lands (which is where my eastern European ancestry comes, since one of the last roman legions that got left behind at hadrians wall when the empire collapsed where from what is now Slovakia, but I digress) however we are constantly told by certain Irish people that ulster - scot is not an idenity, so which is it?

No Roman Legion got abandoned during the Roman retreat. Had they, they would not have survived. Perhaps you are mixing this story up with the King Arthur legends?

Happyman42

gallag wrote: »

You can only be neutral when you know other people will protect you, I would imagine if the mainland did not exist ireland would be a french colony, ireland does not choose to be neutral, it has no choice. if the shoe was on the other foot and ireland happend to be the big island do you think think things would be diffrent? And the UK gives massive amounts of foreign aid, without winging about it. You aspire for a united ireland, I aspire for a united kingdom, none of us can say its not going to happen but I believe Ireland reforming is more likely.

Like most Unionists you live in a fantasy world of if's, do you think the Scots Ulsters or Ulster Scots would be here without protection from the bullyboy next door?
Ireland chose to be neutral, it could have like many other countries joined with the Allies but it stood up to Churchill's bully boy tactics and American disapproval and paddled it's own canoe.
Can Britian say it did that, does it do it even today? It is far from a benign force in world politics.

And the shoe isn't on the other foot, this is the real world.

gallag

Happyman42 wrote: »

Like most Unionists you live in a fantasy world of if's, do you think the Scots Ulsters or Ulster Scots would be here without protection from the bullyboy next door?
Ireland chose to be it could have like many other countries joined with the Allies but it stood up to Churchill's bully boy tactics and American disapproval and paddled it's own canoe.
Can Britian say it did that, does it do it even today? It is far from a benign force in world politics.

And the shoe isn't on the other foot, this is the real world.

I am admittedly lost now, are you saying GB fighting in ww2 was wrong? And ireland did not join the war effort out of morals etc it was self interest, I would imagine the irish people were pretty glad the allies won though?

Happyman42

gallag wrote: »

I would imagine the irish people were pretty glad the allies won though?

I'm not sure the nationalists and catholics of NI would have noticed much of a difference tbh thankfully they had an Underground like the French to shake off the oppressors.

gallag

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm not sure the nationalists and catholics of NI would have noticed much of a difference tbh thankfully they had an Underground like the French to shake off the oppressors.

Seriously? If it was not for the IRA killing people the British army would never have been on the streets over here, the IRA set the nationlist movement back decades and mabey forever, if we take the total casualties of the troubles at around 3000 and though the IRA killed over half of that total many IRA victims were Catholic so say about 1500 Catholics died in the troubles can you not imagine Hitler making that number seem tiny? Every traveler family for a start.

Remember the British army totaled 300 kills during the troubles, in context that number is tiny and on the whole shows the British army were not the blood thirsty monster's you paint them as, by no means perfect but I cant imagine many other armys coming out of a bloody civil war with that low number of kills. Over 20,000 dead in a short period in syira for example.

Again, I am not saying the BA were perfect, bloddy sunday etc but to say Hitler invading and ruling would be better????????

junder

karma_ wrote: »

No Roman Legion got abandoned during the Roman retreat. Had they, they would not have survived. Perhaps you are mixing this story up with the King Arthur legends?

Quite a few 'Romans' got left behind more over the 'clan' I belong to are doing a DNA project which brought to light the eastern European ancestry but I'm not about to give you my name for you to check it out but your welcome to read up on the history of the border reivers it's quite interesting

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Like most Unionists you live in a fantasy world of if's, do you think the Scots Ulsters or Ulster Scots would be here without protection from the bullyboy next door?
Ireland chose to be neutral, it could have like many other countries joined with the Allies but it stood up to Churchill's bully boy tactics and American disapproval and paddled it's own canoe.
Can Britian say it did that, does it do it even today? It is far from a benign force in world politics.

And the shoe isn't on the other foot, this is the real world.

Yer churchhills bully boy tactics of offering Northern Ireland back to dev in return for use of the treaty ports