Doctors raging at union chief's €9.6m pay-off

rodento

This is just plain shocking

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/doctors-raging-at-union-chiefs-96m-payoff-3350353.html

The package, which was negotiated in 2003, includes a pension fund of €4.5m, a termination payment of €1.5m and an additional payment of €225,000 a year to be made each year for 16 years to a total value of €3.6m.
Mr McNeice got a starting salary of €250,000, which grew to €500,000 in 2012

How was this ever allowed to happen, 500,000 a year just to be head of a union:eek:

Lantus

I'm still not sure why so much is spent by people on Unions. They cannot stop you being fired and today we have pretty robust employment law in place.

Ultimatley the members gave a part of their hard earned cash to the Union (roughly €1000 per member per year on average) and with this money the Union created a small organisation with incredibly well paid officers and directors of he back of someone else doing all the work.) Would that be the definition of a parasitical organisation?

Its an organisation that motivates its members through fear (leave us and you may lose you job, your pension etc.)

This should be a very low key endevour. All it really needs it a few officers to act as part time nominee's and then the retained services of a solicitor who specialises in corporate/employment law.

You cannot call doctors intelligent people when they simply give away their money to a man who then pays himself millions in salary and pension. Its unsane.

Farmer Pudsey

This is an issue with all unions over the last 10 years because most are tied to PS wages there wages and pensions have become an issue for the orginisations. The IMO is just a bigger version of the same problem. The other issue now facing unions is that if they try to raise union subscriptions they will loose members.

The IFA which is more or less a union have tried to expand there base by getting farmers not members to join up and to get spouses to also join however this is begining to shrink back as members see the cost. Some unions are trying to get retired members to become associate members with varying degrees of success.

IMO obviously the member took there eye comply off the ball. However it is a nice windfall for the revenue comissioners as he will have to pay a penelty on the pension value over 2 million (I think).

AlekSmart

rodento wrote: »

This is just plain shocking

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/doctors-raging-at-union-chiefs-96m-payoff-3350353.html

The package, which was negotiated in 2003, includes a pension fund of €4.5m, a termination payment of €1.5m and an additional payment of €225,000 a year to be made each year for 16 years to a total value of €3.6m.
Mr McNeice got a starting salary of €250,000, which grew to €500,000 in 2012

How was this ever allowed to happen, 500,000 a year just to be head of a union:eek:

2003,how different a world we all inhabited back then.....was there anything that could stop our upward and onmward march....?

Mr McNiece negotiated a package which was/is of it's time in substance and sentiment...nobody forced the IMO,and inter-alia,it's membership to accept or approve this deal.

10 years later,the only real issue is whether Mr McNiece has performed his duties dilegently enough to merit the full pension (If such a performence requirement was/is in the contract at all ?)

Well done George McNiece I say,perhaps if the likes of him had been at the helm of Ireland Teo,we might be in a better place now.

Interesting to note that of a total membership of c.5,000 only 170 attended the EGM.

Any idea of the reason for the low turn-out ?

smcgiff

One presumes the imo union was set up to protect its members from employers, but who was there to protect the members from the imo?

This is disgusting, and if there was a way for the imo to distribute its reserves back to its members and wind itself up without paying mcneice then it should consider it. They could always create imo mark 2. Probably not legal.

2Scoops

AlekSmart wrote: »

Any idea of the reason for the low turn-out ?

A mix of apathy, the inconvenience of travelling to Mullingar, and the expectation that all that would be said is the usual platitudes.

squod

Been reading about this since Friday. Is this something new? Unions needing policing is hardly some new fad dreamt up in the last few days surely.

flutered

i think that i have read elsewhere that a dr james reilly was one the negotiations when his terms and conditions were agreed, i read thro quite a few fourms each day, then the nopper is not as good as it was.

jonsnow

rodento wrote: »

This is just plain shocking

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/doctors-raging-at-union-chiefs-96m-payoff-3350353.html

The package, which was negotiated in 2003, includes a pension fund of €4.5m, a termination payment of €1.5m and an additional payment of €225,000 a year to be made each year for 16 years to a total value of €3.6m.
Mr McNeice got a starting salary of €250,000, which grew to €500,000 in 2012

How was this ever allowed to happen, 500,000 a year just to be head of a union:eek:

Given how irish doctors overcharge its hilarious that they were overcharged by their own union boss.Having said that considering how much Irisgh doctors earn in relation to their eu counterparts its arguable that the man earned every penny.

4.legs.good

ha, taste of own medicine

Icepick

Given how ridiculously strong unions are, he deserves it all.

Is it ironic, hypocritical and unfair? of course

flutered

karma is a bitch is it not?.

nice_guy80

Ah the IMO...
where to start???

creating a cartel in Irish medicine for the last 60+ years and restricting the number of training places in Ireland to ensure a shortage of doctors

recommending very restrictive rules for doctors coming in who were trained in other countries, thus further manipulating the supply of doctors in the country

Ryder

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Ah the IMO...
where to start???

creating a cartel in Irish medicine for the last 60+ years and restricting the number of training places in Ireland to ensure a shortage of doctors

recommending very restrictive rules for doctors coming in who were trained in other countries, thus further manipulating the supply of doctors in the country

you're aware that none of the above is true.....right?

dissed doc

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is an issue with all unions over the last 10 years because most are tied to PS wages there wages and pensions have become an issue for the orginisations. ....

IMO obviously the member took there eye comply off the ball. However it is a nice windfall for the revenue comissioners as he will have to pay a penelty on the pension value over 2 million (I think).

No actually, the contract was negotiated in secret and the details of his remuneration and pension were witheld from members despite several demands for it to be disclosed. It was completely undemocratic and he took advantage of the the doctors.

dissed doc

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Ah the IMO...
where to start???

creating a cartel in Irish medicine for the last 60+ years and restricting the number of training places in Ireland to ensure a shortage of doctors

recommending very restrictive rules for doctors coming in who were trained in other countries, thus further manipulating the supply of doctors in the country

I'll show you where you can start:

1. The HSE and Dept. of Health controls the amount of training places and employment of doctors. There is a shortage because no-one wants to work in Ireland.

2. Ireland is completely open to any EU doctor to work in, and consultants do not even have to pass a language test. But, they don't come. There is no conspiracy, there is just no interest in working in such an anti-doctor country.

rodento

After speakers had made their feelings known about the package, which they were told is legally binding, the president of the IMO, Dr Paul McKeown, said he and officers of the IMO shared those feelings of shock and anger.

What I don't understand is how come this protection was not given to the IMO's members saleries, cause a contract is a contract

thebman

dissed doc wrote: »

I'll show you where you can start:

1. The HSE and Dept. of Health controls the amount of training places and employment of doctors. There is a shortage because no-one wants to work in Ireland.

2. Ireland is completely open to any EU doctor to work in, and consultants do not even have to pass a language test. But, they don't come. There is no conspiracy, there is just no interest in working in such an anti-doctor country.

Troika health recommendations

The draft report also suggests further opening the supply of labour for suitably qualified doctors from other countries.

It points out other countries, such as Britain, have a higher number of foreign doctors per head of population.

The report says: "There have been overruns in the health sector, which require durable reforms to reduce the risk of future spending pressures in this area."

Well, they don't have come from the EU. You seem to take the IMO line on it rather than the Troika's.

It also says spending in the Department of Health overran partly because steps to contain costs which had been annouced were not fully taken.

The report indicates that discussions during the Troika mission evidenced that those commitments have been only partly implemented.

The Troika says steps to stop over spending must be swiftly and fully implemented.

It says public sector workers are paid more than equivalent workers in the private sector.

The report says there is no explanation for this difference.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0111/european-commission-report.html

The Troika seem to think they are over paid and maybe overworked. Pay cuts and extra hiring to reduce the hours worked to improve working conditions would seem to be the obvious solution.

jased10s

It's just really sad as a Human race that health care is raped for every penny it can be. I understand that it takes skill and dedication to become qualified, but i thought people who got into the profession did it because they wanted to help mankind.

They are not the only ones making a buck , the pharma's are the worst.

Guess you will pay anything when your health is at risk.

OMD

thebman wrote: »

Well, they don't have come from the EU. You seem to take the IMO line on it rather than the Troika's.



http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0111/european-commission-report.html

The Troika seem to think they are over paid and maybe overworked. Pay cuts and extra hiring to reduce the hours worked to improve working conditions would seem to be the obvious solution.

The pieces you quote don't point to the Troika saying doctors are overpaid.

Gumbo

While all the time, The USA are getting our highly trained doctors and nurses straight after graduating leaving us with nothing!

the_syco

kceire wrote: »

While all the time, The USA are getting our highly trained doctors and nurses straight after graduating leaving us with nothing!

And in Oz, it would seem offers better money, but less stupid hours. Oh, and it seems the hospitals over there take an active interest in training their workforce.

Gumbo

the_syco wrote: »

And in Oz, it would seem offers better money, but less stupid hours. Oh, and it seems the hospitals over there take an active interest in training their workforce.

+1

My friend told me she was offered a job in Chicago. Salary was 60k (nurse) and because she was educated here, the US chiefs state that its one of the best educations you can get in the world.

This leaves us with no native nurses/doctors and thus we have to import them.

juan.kerr

dissed doc wrote: »

No actually, the contract was negotiated in secret and the details of his remuneration and pension were witheld from members despite several demands for it to be disclosed. It was completely undemocratic and he took advantage of the the doctors.

I was just about to post something along these lines.

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

While all the time, The USA are getting our highly trained doctors and nurses straight after graduating leaving us with nothing!

Thats as much a problem with our education system than it is the pay for doctors. In the US doctors will usually come out huge debts after Med School, whereas in Ireland that is largely covered by the state. Therefore there is an expectation that in the US that doctors will earn a lot of money as they need to pay back the debt, this doesn't need to be the case in Ireland.

Gumbo

sarumite wrote: »

Thats as much a problem with our education system than it is the pay for doctors. In the US doctors will usually come out huge debts after Med School, whereas in Ireland that is largely covered by the state. Therefore there is an expectation that in the US that doctors will earn a lot of money as they need to pay back the debt, this doesn't need to be the case in Ireland.

I know yeah, and the flip side to that is why the powers to be over there are looking for Irish graduates too. They will arrive in America with their full education, not much loans etc and will take up employment and spend their money out and about in the domestic economy, where the local graduates will be paying back their student loans for the first 10 years or so!

Sleepy

Yep, far more a sign that we need to find a way of making those leaving these shores pay for their degrees than an indication that we're under-paying doctors. Most graduates with real skills could double-their salaries by moving to the US though (or it certainly seems to be the case in IT at least). Those of us who stay more than pay back the cost of our education via the tax system. Those that leave don't.

sarumite

the_syco wrote: »

And in Oz, it would seem offers better money, but less stupid hours. Oh, and it seems the hospitals over there take an active interest in training their workforce.

I think we need to be careful in making this claim. My cousin is a doctor in Oz and she said the same thing. However on further questioning, she was comparing her time in Ireland as a resident against her current position in Australia as a fully specialized doctor and thus she was not actually comparing like with like. I do not know what the difference in pay between Ireland and Oz is, however I my understanding is that many of the Irish doctors who go to Australia have just finished their residency in Ireland and thus have not actually worked in Ireland afterwards.

the_syco

Maybe I should rephrase that to "better money for what they do".

sarumite wrote: »

I do not know what the difference in pay between Ireland and Oz is, however I my understanding is that many of the Irish doctors who go to Australia have just finished their residency in Ireland and thus have not actually worked in Ireland afterwards.

From reading a thread in one of the other sections on boards.ie it seems that people in the healthcare industry have X amount of hours to do, compared to what goes on here.

Ireland; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055799819

Oz; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79320633&postcount=5

A 35 patient load on one House officer would be deemed 'Madness' whereas in Ireland that would be a norm.

sarumite

the_syco wrote: »

Maybe I should rephrase that to "better money for what they do".


From reading a thread in one of the other sections on boards.ie it seems that people in the healthcare industry have X amount of hours to do, compared to what goes on here.

Ireland; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055799819

Oz; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79320633&postcount=5

I would prefer more general information than one persons experience off working in Oz to be honest. It could be the case, I am not denying that, though something with statistics etc.

For example, you "ireland" post mainly deals with residency whereas the "Australina" example seems to be talking about working after residency. This is exactly what my cousin did, though they are not truly comparable.

the_syco

sarumite wrote: »

I would prefer more general information than one persons experience off working in Oz to be honest.

I see where you're coming from, but when you look at how much unpaid overtime is expected here (not to mention the insane hours the surgeons have to do), compared being paid for it over there, I don't blame them for going there.

Good loser

I heard over Christmas that they are going to vastly increase the supply of local doctors in Oz.

Only thing is they want to work only in Sydney or Melbourne. Foreigners will have to work in the outback (cities?).

Ryder

sarumite wrote: »

Thats as much a problem with our education system than it is the pay for doctors. In the US doctors will usually come out huge debts after Med School, whereas in Ireland that is largely covered by the state. Therefore there is an expectation that in the US that doctors will earn a lot of money as they need to pay back the debt, this doesn't need to be the case in Ireland.

not a fair point. Medical education in Ireland is funded by a combination of foreign students and taxation. We all contribute to the tax system - sometimes we avail of services, sometimes not. Its society.

Undergraduate education is funded here. Postgraduate isn't. When you factor in postgraduate degrees, exams, research, international conferences....and then an international fellowship, it runs into tens of thousands. Coupled with underpayment of overtime (just saying, we still work regardless knowing OT won't be paid), I think we more than pay our debts back.....oh and not to forget that in my 10 years plus since graduation, I have moved house 10 times.

Discuss remuneration of you want. But get the facts about our particular system right before doing so. Irish incomes may need to be deflated, I agree, but not in a targeted vindictive way. Any changes needs to be universal

Cookie_Monster

the_syco wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but when you look at how much unpaid overtime is expected here (not to mention the insane hours the surgeons have to do).

has the WTD not put paid to that though?

Vorsprung

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

has the WTD not put paid to that though?

EWTD is only in place in a few hospitals.

Re: Oz vs Ireland, I'll give you a quick look of my experience of the place. I moved to Brisbane after my intern year and spent 2.5 years there. I worked reasonable hours (40-45 hours per week) and earned more money there than I do for my 50-85 hours per week. 5 of my hours each week were dedicated to teaching (pretty high quality teaching I should add). Here, I get 3 hours per week of potentially good teaching, but no simulation training (important for emergency medicine/critical care specialities ie anaesthetics/ICU) which I did get in Oz.

I came home for personal reasons, and don't really regret it because I'm closer to family, but the work life balance is pretty poor. As suggested above, the HSE really needs to concentrate on the factors pushing people away. People at my level (registrar) are abandoning specialities such as emergency medicine to the point that some EDs which would have had no recruitment problems a couple of years ago are now struggling to get decent people to work for them.

Chris_5339762

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

has the WTD not put paid to that though?

The WTD has, in theory, put paid to ridiculous hours, but in reality it is completely ignored and doctors regularly exceed them, especially trainees and surgery.

100+ hours per week is still not uncommon if you're a surgery reg for instance.

flutered

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The WTD has, in theory, put paid to ridiculous hours, but in reality it is completely ignored and doctors regularly exceed them, especially trainees and surgery.

100+ hours per week is still not uncommon if you're a surgery reg for instance.

i am at present concluding a deal for a watch with a dr. in the us, one day last week he had a 24 hour shift, proof advailable if required.

Ryder

flutered wrote: »

i am at present concluding a deal for a watch with a dr. in the us, one day last week he had a 24 hour shift, proof advailable if required.

he may very well have had...whats your point? Long hours is a facet of doctors lives worldwide. In the US, for your interest, they have an 80hr week max that is strictly enforced. Also in the US the trainees learn, they don't provide a service as much as here...ratio of trainee to attending is not far off 1:1

sock puppet

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

has the WTD not put paid to that though?

From what I've seen the WTD is pretty much ignored in every professional environment.

carpejugulum

Graduates should either be obliged to work for 5-10 years here (if they are offered a suitable position) or partially pay college cost.

dissed doc

carpejugulum wrote: »

Graduates should either be obliged to work for 5-10 years here (if they are offered a suitable position) or partially pay college cost.

Just for doctors (because they are evil) or for all graduates of the system for which everyone's parents paid taxes for?

Obviously, doctors' parents should get nothing for paying taxes for their children. And their children should be slaves!!

2Scoops

If people are really concerned with the costs of training medical students (which relate primarily to the cost of retaining consultants for academic/teaching purposes), they should be fine with graduates being obliged to work for just one year as an academic consultant as opposed to 5-10 years (!) as a junior doctor. This would cover the entire costs of training + change - much better value! :pac:

sarumite

Ryder wrote: »

not a fair point. Medical education in Ireland is funded by a combination of foreign students and taxation. We all contribute to the tax system - sometimes we avail of services, sometimes not. Its society.

Undergraduate education is funded here. Postgraduate isn't. When you factor in postgraduate degrees, exams, research, international conferences....and then an international fellowship, it runs into tens of thousands. Coupled with underpayment of overtime (just saying, we still work regardless knowing OT won't be paid), I think we more than pay our debts back.....oh and not to forget that in my 10 years plus since graduation, I have moved house 10 times.

Discuss remuneration of you want. But get the facts about our particular system right before doing so. Irish incomes may need to be deflated, I agree, but not in a targeted vindictive way. Any changes needs to be universal

A few points

I am a graduate of two Irish universities, I know how undergraduate and postgraduate courses are funded

In Ireland, training of doctors is largely funded by the state. In the US, training is largely funded by the individual. You don't seem to disagree with that, so I am not exactly sure what your point is.

You are overstating the cost of some postgraduate studies. For example, typically PhD's are funded. The funding pays the fees, cost of materials as well providing the student with a living stipend. While I can only speak for science, it is extremely unusual for a Phd student to attend an international conference on their own money. Usually the majority cost of the trip is paid for by travel stipend etc. However, this is all irrelevant since it doesn't apply to Med students.

Sitric

sarumite wrote: »

A few points

I am a graduate of two Irish universities, I know how undergraduate and postgraduate courses are funded

In Ireland, training of doctors is largely funded by the state. In the US, training is largely funded by the individual. You don't seem to disagree with that, so I am not exactly sure what your point is.

You are overstating the cost of some postgraduate studies. For example, typically PhD's are funded. The funding pays the fees, cost of materials as well providing the student with a living stipend. While I can only speak for science, it is extremely unusual for a Phd student to attend an international conference on their own money. Usually the majority cost of the trip is paid for by travel stipend etc. However, this is all irrelevant since it doesn't apply to Med students.

I believe the post you take issue with is referring to postgraduate studies in medicine which are not funded and costs a bomb.

Ryder

sarumite wrote: »

A few points

I am a graduate of two Irish universities, I know how undergraduate and postgraduate courses are funded

In Ireland, training of doctors is largely funded by the state. In the US, training is largely funded by the individual. You don't seem to disagree with that, so I am not exactly sure what your point is.

You are overstating the cost of some postgraduate studies. For example, typically PhD's are funded. The funding pays the fees, cost of materials as well providing the student with a living stipend. While I can only speak for science, it is extremely unusual for a Phd student to attend an international conference on their own money. Usually the majority cost of the trip is paid for by travel stipend etc. However, this is all irrelevant since it doesn't apply to Med students.

Undergraduate medical, and all other, education is funded by tax-payers (mostly). My tax over 15+ years of working goes towards that now (thats a really small point). Much of the postgraduate education of doctors, quoted by the HSE when it suits them, is actually salaries. 'Junior doctors' are service..ie the health service could not run without them.

Most hospital doctors will do 1/2 additional degrees....5000e each to enroll alone
Conferences/meetings. If youre not presenting and attending as part of professional development, expect to pay maybe 200e registration....add flights and accomodation..maybe 1000e. This will occur once a year/two years. Its expected that you would attend those.
Professional exams - 2000e +. Not including materials/courses.
Training courses. The good ones are all international. Travel and course could be close to 3000e. You might do 2 of those over a training career.
House moves. Yearly or more. That costs
Fellowship. Move country with family. Add additional exams, moving costs, flights home, less pay...tens of thousands
Time. Training in the US is 5/6 years. Ireland is 10+

AlekSmart

sock puppet wrote: »

From what I've seen the WTD is pretty much ignored in every professional environment.

I can assure Sock Puppet that the WTA is enforced rigidly to the second in the professional driving environment.....rigidly,and a more nonsensical set of rules one could not find,if one travelled to Mars for them !!!