Can't squat low enough

Tiddlypeeps

I hope this is the right forum for this.

I'm pretty new to weight lifting, I very recently started a lifting program called strong lifts 5x5.

My problem is that I can only do a half squat (I think that's what it's called), I can't even squat parallel never mind a full squat.

Through searching the internet and doing a bunch of tests I have determined that my ankle flexibility is the problem, it's incredibly poor. My hip flexibility is quite poor too but they should be flexible enough to squat parallel at least. When I squat as low as I can my knees won't go out further than my toes.

Over the next couple of months I am going to work on my ankles, hips and over all flexibility through stretches. I'm not sure what to do in the mean time tho, should I just continue doing half squats or should I replace that exercise with some others until I address my flexibility issue? I don't want to avoid the weights all together because of this so any help would be appreciated.

Also I'm going to put together a stretching plan that I will do nightly to increase flexibility, I have a rough idea of some of the basic stretches but if anybody has any advice in this area that would also be great. I have no idea how long it will take me to address this issue, hopefully it'll be only a couple of weeks but because my ankle flexibility is so poor at the moment I fear it could be much longer

Big_G

Knee to wall stretches, squat to stand stretching, goblet squats, prying., look up all this stuff on google. Oh yeah, keep squatting. Don't squat heavy until your mobility improves.

token

As well as all the stretching get a pair of weightlifting shoes. I've rotten ankle flexibility as well but I get by pretty good with weightlifting shoes on. They have a raised heel which make squatting a ton easier. With the combination of the shoes and regular stretching you should be fine.

Hanley

1) soft tissue quality (foam roll)
2) lengthen and mobilize (stretch and mobility drill)
3) lock it in with some stability drills

...in that order

Antisocialiser

Improving calf and ankle mobility - Have a gander at thon.

cc87

While working to improve your mobility and all that you could try squatting with some weights under your heels and see what kind of difference it makes

Edwardius

How wide is your stance when squatting?

Tiddlypeeps

Antisocialiser wrote: »

Improving calf and ankle mobility - Have a gander at thon.

Thats a great link, thank you.

cc87 wrote: »

While working to improve your mobility and all that you could try squatting with some weights under your heels and see what kind of difference it makes

I'll give that a go next on my next trip to the gym.

Dead Ed wrote: »

How wide is your stance when squatting?

It's most comfortable a bit wider than shoulder width. Slightly wider than what I would see other people doing, not sure if that's a good/bad thing. I've experimented with a bunch of different widths. I got the best result in the gym this morning after giving my calfs and ankles a really good warm up and stretch. I didn't have anyone with me to watch me but I'm pretty sure I got lower than I usually do so hopefully it should just be a case of keep stretching and keep practicing.

Cheers for all the advice.

thegreatiam

http://www.mobilitywod.com/

his very first video is what helped me.

Scuba Ste

As well as all the mobility work above I'd keep squatting. Instead of adding more weight to the bar though, progress by trying to squat lower each week. You can use a box or stack of plates if you want and lower them each week. With the stretching and stuff you should be getting to parallel in no time.

Any stretches that mimic the bottom position of a squat are the ones I've found most useful; sitting in the bottom with or without weight eg paused goblet squats, paused barbell squats with very light weight.

Dathai

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Any stretches that mimic the bottom position of a squat are the ones I've found most useful; sitting in the bottom with or without weight eg paused goblet squats, paused barbell squats with very light weight.

^^Yup

I'd suggest squatting with no bar and pushing your knees out with your elbows and hold the position. I usually find squatting with an empty bar into position and hanging out there for a few seconds each rep does the job.

squod

Did this kind of thing after squats last year. Front foot elevated split squat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4vUT_L38Yc

observed

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I hope this is the right forum for this.

I'm pretty new to weight lifting, I very recently started a lifting program called strong lifts 5x5.

My problem is that I can only do a half squat (I think that's what it's called), I can't even squat parallel never mind a full squat.

Through searching the internet and doing a bunch of tests I have determined that my ankle flexibility is the problem, it's incredibly poor. My hip flexibility is quite poor too but they should be flexible enough to squat parallel at least. When I squat as low as I can my knees won't go out further than my toes.

You should never let your knees pass your toes when doing a squat. It is really bad for you.
One thing I found helpful is to put practice with your toes against a wall or something else that can help stop your knees passing your toes but gives your boday a guide as to how far to let your knees go.

Other options if your ankles are inflexible include using a 5kg plate under each heel this will release abit of pressure on your achiles and allow you to get significantly lower without putting excess pressure on your joints.

Hanley

observed wrote: »

You should never let your knees pass your toes when doing a squat. It is really bad for you.

Wrong.

Tiddlypeeps

observed wrote: »

You should never let your knees pass your toes when doing a squat. It is really bad for you.

If you have some evidence to back that up I would love to see it. Otherwise I'm afraid I can't take your word for it because you are going very much against the grain.

I can't even imagine how you could keep balanced squatting that way.

Big_G

observed wrote: »

You should never let your knees pass your toes when doing a squat. It is really bad for you.
One thing I found helpful is to put practice with your toes against a wall or something else that can help stop your knees passing your toes but gives your boday a guide as to how far to let your knees go.

Other options if your ankles are inflexible include using a 5kg plate under each heel this will release abit of pressure on your achiles and allow you to get significantly lower without putting excess pressure on your joints.

Which actually allows your knees pass further beyond your toes.

observed

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

If you have some evidence to back that up I would love to see it. Otherwise I'm afraid I can't take your word for it because you are going very much against the grain.

I can't even imagine how you could keep balanced squatting that way.

I have trained with an Australian Champion Deadlifter for the last 8 months. He has thought me the correct technique.

Here is another reference
"During the descent phase of any type of squat, leg press, or hack squat, do not allow the knees to extend beyond your toes. The further your knees travel over your feet, the greater the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and ligament in the knee."

http://www.topendsports.com/fitness/technique-squat.htm

And another one

"With your feet evenly spaced, take a deep breath. The descent begins with your hips moving backward, and not with your knees bending. Unhinging at the hips allows the body to drop down while still keeping the lower legs in an upright aspect relationship to the floor. It also brings into play the powerful hip flexors and extensors during the movement. You now have tremendously effective synergistic muscle activity to complete the exercise."
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/strengthtraining/a/howtosquat.htm

And another one
1) Proper Squat Technique: Hip Hinge


When most people try to squat, the knees protrude far over the toes, the butt goes straight down, and the heels come off the floor. This happens because proper squat technique requires some hip flexibility, proper balance, and a “hip hinge”.
Each time you squat you should hinge your hips so that your butt moves backwards during the downward phase of the squat, your knees will no longer protrude well over your toes (if you are tall, this may happen, but make sure it does not put pressure on your knees). Finally, the pressure of the squat will be on your heels instead of your toes and you will be able to get more depth to your squat.

http://www.builtlean.com/2010/07/20/how-to-do-proper-squat-technique/

And this is just from a quick google.

If you would like me to continue I will.

observed

Big_G wrote: »

Which actually allows your knees pass further beyond your toes.

If your technique is correct you will not allow your knees to pass your toes.
As I have shown in my last post the key is getting the hip Flex instead of just bending your knees.

Molly

Please stop

Big_G

You can throw google quotes at me all night, I'll just throw back any oly lifter who ever squatted. I personally squat low bar (powerlifting style) with the shins more vertical and a more sitting back position as taught to me by an Australian and World (GPC) raw powerlifting champion (see we can both use the logical fallacy of appeal to authority). This is partly because I like this squatting style but partly because I lack ankle mobility and some hip mobility truth be told to allow my knees to track forward and outside (lateral) to the toes in order to allow my back to stay upright and my ass to go deep into the squat position. The most dangerous thing for knees and squatting is not letting knees over toes but letting knees track inward.



Full article: knees beyond toes

Also see Kelly Starrett (sp?) for his take on squatting and knee movement.

The fact is, lots of people squat with their knees past their toes every day (some people literally do this every day) and don't develop serious knee problems. If you want to squat super deep you MUST do this and mobilise your hips. If you want to squat not as deep but way beyond parallel you must have mobile hips etc.

. Here's our friend arnold demonstrating the deep squat (poorly I might add) with his knees beyond his toes and his heels lifted.

Do you want me to continue?

Big_G

As an aside, Arnold a bit hipsterish in that picture no? Lo-top chucks, no socks and 3/4 length trousers? I wonder has he got a set of buddy holly glasses with the lenses punched out?

Tiddlypeeps

observed wrote: »

I have trained with an Australian Champion Deadlifter for the last 8 months. He has thought me the correct technique.

Here is another reference
"During the descent phase of any type of squat, leg press, or hack squat, do not allow the knees to extend beyond your toes. The further your knees travel over your feet, the greater the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and ligament in the knee."

http://www.topendsports.com/fitness/technique-squat.htm

And another one

"With your feet evenly spaced, take a deep breath. The descent begins with your hips moving backward, and not with your knees bending. Unhinging at the hips allows the body to drop down while still keeping the lower legs in an upright aspect relationship to the floor. It also brings into play the powerful hip flexors and extensors during the movement. You now have tremendously effective synergistic muscle activity to complete the exercise."
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/strengthtraining/a/howtosquat.htm

And another one
1) Proper Squat Technique: Hip Hinge


When most people try to squat, the knees protrude far over the toes, the butt goes straight down, and the heels come off the floor. This happens because proper squat technique requires some hip flexibility, proper balance, and a “hip hinge”.
Each time you squat you should hinge your hips so that your butt moves backwards during the downward phase of the squat, your knees will no longer protrude well over your toes (if you are tall, this may happen, but make sure it does not put pressure on your knees). Finally, the pressure of the squat will be on your heels instead of your toes and you will be able to get more depth to your squat.

http://www.builtlean.com/2010/07/20/how-to-do-proper-squat-technique/

And this is just from a quick google.

If you would like me to continue I will.

I appreciate the advice and know it's good natured but I can't take any of it on board. It goes against the norm, it makes no logical sense to me and the evidence you have provided is all useless.

Trained under a champion deadlifter - Not a legitimate argument, it is an argument from authority and that is a logical fallacy. Argumentum ad verecundiam. Just because somebody is an authority on a subject does not mean that what they say is always true. So what they say cannot be used as evidence to support your claim.

With all the sites you linked too and quoted from, not one of them provided any evidence for their claims. Just saying something like:

"During the descent phase of any type of squat, leg press, or hack squat, do not allow the knees to extend beyond your toes. The further your knees travel over your feet, the greater the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and ligament in the knee."

is sudo science. I could say that not extending the knees beyond the toes puts greater force on the hips and lower back muscles. It sounds like something that could be true, and it could even be true, but I know I just made it up so I have no reason to believe it until somebody presents me with evidence. Without evidence I have no way of determining if what these people say is true or not. I'm not accusing them of lying, they could be misinformed or they could think that 'it just makes sense'.

What I would need to see to convince me you're right is a scientific study, or at least a semi scientific one, preferably peer reviewed that studies a large group of people who use both forms and the injuries sustained by both.

The pics/video in the first and second link show people who are not squatting very low at all. I can't imagine this being as good an exercise as a deep squat.

Wood

Quick, somebody call this guy and tell him he's doing it wrong before he hurts himself.

Knees over toes is a myth, go back to your deadlift champion and tell him he's wrong.

Thud

observed wrote: »

Other options if your ankles are inflexible include using a 5kg plate under each heel this will release abit of pressure on your achiles and allow you to get significantly lower without putting excess pressure on your joints.

Your first link contradicts this even though you were right
MYTH #3: I can isolate my quads better by using a block or weight under my heels.

SHATTER THE MYTH
The practice of putting blocks or weights under your heels is widespread among bodybuilders in order to gain better isolation of the quads while squatting. The problem is that your knees go way out over your feet, placing great shear and compression on both the cartilage and ligaments of the knee, which over time can cause serious damage to the knee joint.

:rolleyes:

your second link has a picture of someone squatting with their knees in front of their toes

observed wrote: »

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/strengthtraining/a/howtosquat.htm

stop spreading the bro science bro

Antisocialiser

Is the knees behind toes not just a prompt to get beginners' hips to hinge correctly?

Hanley

Antisocialiser wrote: »

Is the knees behind toes not just a prompt to get beginners' hips to hinge correctly?

Yah, and to keep them on the heels. It's very hard to be on your toes while TRYING to maintain knees behind toes.

Gloveworm

I love a good knee-position-while-squatting donnybrook.

Can someone say something about not going below parallel to wrench it up a notch?

Big_G

Gloveworm wrote: »

I love a good knee-position-while-squatting donnybrook.

Can someone say something about not going below parallel to wrench it up a notch?

Thought about it. Not touching.

pbowenroe

thegreatiam wrote: »

http://www.mobilitywod.com/

his very first video is what helped me.

I was going to recommend this blog as well, he's excellent.

scholar88

Hey all!! I played with UCD GAA for years and we were involved with the high performance team. They taught me (what i believe) is the correct way to squat. Put simple when you squat the part of your legs between the knee and the toes should not move i.e the knee does not come out in front of the toe.... Now please do not cut me down.... I could be very wrong and i have nothing to suggest why it is correct and ive no experience either way but thats what i was told by sports scientists in one of the top universities in the country.....Maybe thats all they wanted from us GAA heads I dunno or maybe as was suggested it was just so we I can would practice correct hip hinge... I'm just saying thats my knowledge.

Anyways back to the theme of this forum.... I cant squat properly either When in UCD they put small weights under my heels to get me started, encouraged me to lift up through the heels. Then I went to doing it on a smith machine. I would step a half a metre away and fall back against the machine thus ensuring proper technique! Still I would like to do it without the machine in order to get full benefit!! So what tests can i perform to find out the exact reason I cant do them? I am a fit individual and have always had exactly flexibility in hamstring tests and shoulder tests.... I EVEN DID YOGA!!! BUT I STILL CANT SQUAT!!

Hanley

It would seem bizarre that you rate the UCD sports scientists so highly when they never managed to get you to do one of the most basic human movement patterns correctly.

thegreatiam

scholar88 wrote: »

I played with UCD GAA for years and we were involved with the high performance team. They taught me (what i believe) is the correct way to squat.

scholar88 wrote: »

Put simple when you squat the part of your legs between the knee and the toes should not move i.e the knee does not come out in front of the toe....

scholar88 wrote: »

i was told by sports scientists in one of the top universities in the country....

scholar88 wrote: »

I cant squat properly either

scholar88 wrote: »

When in UCD they put small weights under my heels to get me started, encouraged me to lift up through the heels.

Big_G wrote: »

Which actually allows your knees pass further beyond your toes.

Seems like they taught you incorrectly, only taught you like a beginner, or you miss-understood the exercise.
But from what I can see Big_G has a point, maybe they are using the weights under the heels, and telling you to not put your knees forward of your toes to get you, as a beginner, to flex at the hip first. Once you master this they take away the heel weight and allow your knees to come forward naturally, while you still flex from the hip as shown originally. thus making a better form squat.

scholar88 wrote: »

So what tests can i perform to find out the exact reason I cant do them? I am a fit individual and have always had exactly flexibility in hamstring tests and shoulder tests.... I EVEN DID YOGA!!! BUT I STILL CANT SQUAT!!

Try allowing the knees to come forward as everyone here recommends, see if that gets you any lower.

As someone new to learning the correct form of squatting I have yet to find an article anywhere which tells me to prevent my knees coming forward. I think it's old thinking and has recently been proven wrong, it's just taking time trickling into common knowledge.

Big_G

thegreatiam wrote: »

Seems like they taught you incorrectly, only taught you like a beginner, or you miss-understood the exercise.
But from what I can see Big_G has a point, maybe they are using the weights under the heels, and telling you to not put your knees forward of your toes to get you, as a beginner, to flex at the hip first. Once you master this they take away the heel weight and allow your knees to come forward naturally, while you still flex from the hip as shown originally. thus making a better form squat.

Try allowing the knees to come forward as everyone here recommends, see if that gets you any lower.

As someone new to learning the correct form of squatting I have yet to find an article anywhere which tells me to prevent my knees coming forward. I think it's old thinking and has recently been proven wrong, it's just taking time trickling into common knowledge.

I don't exactly advocate allowing the knees to come forward, it all depends on what style of squat you are doing and the dimensions of your body. I am open to correction here (Hanley is a man who is very knowledgable on these things amongst others here) but AFAIK squatting can be boiled down into two main styles, based on their respective competitions.

There is low bar squatting which is a more powerlifting style, designed to get you to a parallel position (upper leg parallel with floor) or just below with the most amount of weight possible. The high bar squat (bar on traps, knees over toes) is used by olympic lifters as an accessory exercise to their competition lifts the clean and jerk and the snatch.

Both styles have their respective advocates and there are loads of arguments for and against each style (see teh internets for all the various flamewars and arguments ad nauseum). I have seen people successfully squat heavy weights with both styles and lots of spectrum in between. I once saw a powerlifter squat 260 with the bar on his traps and sit way back with vertical shins. Looked really awkward and uncomfortable but he got the weight up.

For my training, I started training high bar (knees over toes, bar on traps) and realized that I had nowhere near the mobility to do that safely so I switched to low bar (bar lower on back, shins more upright but not perfectly vertical) because it has a decreased range of motion. Then I learned to sit back by putting a bar on my back and sitting down (also learned to activate hip flexors). All the while I was hammering mobility twice a day, sometimes three times, or if I was just standing around, and I'm still pretty immobile. I blame years of playing rugby and not knowing anything about mobility or indeed strength training.

I love the squat for many reasons but almost more than making me stronger (almost!) is it taught me how immobile I actually am. I still am immobile but I can comfortably get below parallel in a low bar squat which is a vast improvement over falling over the first time I tried to squat because my hips were so immobile that I couldn't balance properly in the hole, I kept falling backwards.


My point is don't worry too much about the small technical aspects of squatting. I also recommend getting a good coach or posting videos up on forums so more experienced people can give advice. I was coached by two people before getting coached by a powerlifter and spent almost a year squatting badly resulting in me damaging both SI joints which let me tell you is not a comfortable experience. Knees over toes is not as relevant as hip mobility in my opinion (again open to correction).

If you want to get deep in the hole, follow the advice above about mobility. Get a coach. Squat.

Big_G

I should say aswell that the other point I was making is it is not necessarily detrimental to allow your knees track forward as long as they don't track in.

Hanley

Big_G wrote: »

My point is don't worry too much about the small technical aspects of squatting. I also recommend getting a good coach or posting videos up on forums so more experienced people can give advice. I was coached by two people before getting coached by a powerlifter and spent almost a year squatting badly resulting in me damaging both SI joints which let me tell you is not a comfortable experience. Knees over toes is not as relevant as hip mobility in my opinion (again open to correction).

If you want to get deep in the hole, follow the advice above about mobility. Get a coach. Squat.

Full agree on most of what you said. I coached 2 squat workshops last weekend and my most emphasised point was this:

If you break at the hips and open the knees to sit down to at least parallel, while keeping a neutral lumbar spine and your feet flat on the floor, it really doesn't f*cking matter where your knees go in relation to your toes.

Your femur:tibia:torso ratios are going to make things different for everyone anyway. 2 dudes, both 5'10, one with a 29in inside leg and one with a 34in inside leg are going to have vastly different positions at the bottom of a squat if using the same bar position (either low bar OR high bar) and both are perfectly ok once they're abiding by the principles in the previous paragraph.

The biggest problem is that the people you see held up as "perfect" squat examples tend to be brutally strong and built perfectly for squatting. YOU (a given individual) may not be like that so stop putting your square peg in a round hole.

Frank McGivney

for around shoulder width squat this is what i found good:
(1) Pick a spot on wall just above eye level and look at this the whole of squat
(2) go in under bar squeese your shoulder blade together and you create a nice platform at shoulders to hold bar.
(3) Curve back in obviously, Deep breath, push hips out to take bar from rack,
One step back to shoulder width then the next foot (dont look down if you can at all just know it by feel)
(4) Big breath keeping you eye on the spot u picked, push you ass back and spread your knees out keeping your hips tight. As you go down keep pushing ass back and knees out until you as low as u want
(5) explode upwards and backwards (slightly), the barr is pushing you forward so by going slightly baxkwards you do in fact just go straight up.
(6) maintain erect postion (same position) on way up and down
(7) repeat until blood comes out your nose or ears or you start to pass out.
(8) Turn into monster
(9) Dont be afraid to be aggressive but in controlled way so on way up let the anger out but no need ofr this stupid crap people go on with before lift
Thats my opnion anyway. Course wide stance squat is much same except wider stance, hips turned out more , knees pushed out more and knees not as far if at all over the toes. but i think you need squat briefs in my opinion to do these and a monolift as too dangerous to walk out to super wide position.
Dont forget the spot on the wall dont ever stop looking at it

Big_G

Frank McGivney wrote: »

for around shoulder width squat this is what i found good:
(1) Pick a spot on wall just above eye level and look at this the whole of squat
(2) go in under bar squeese your shoulder blade together and you create a nice platform at shoulders to hold bar.
(3) Curve back in obviously, Deep breath, push hips out to take bar from rack,
One step back to shoulder width then the next foot (dont look down if you can at all just know it by feel)
(4) Big breath keeping you eye on the spot u picked, push you ass back and spread your knees out keeping your hips tight. As you go down keep pushing ass back and knees out until you as low as u want
(5) explode upwards and backwards (slightly), the barr is pushing you forward so by going slightly baxkwards you do in fact just go straight up.
(6) maintain erect postion (same position) on way up and down
(7) repeat until blood comes out your nose or ears or you start to pass out.
(8) Turn into monster
(9) Dont be afraid to be aggressive but in controlled way so on way up let the anger out but no need ofr this stupid crap people go on with before lift
Thats my opnion anyway. Course wide stance squat is much same except wider stance, hips turned out more , knees pushed out more and knees not as far if at all over the toes. but i think you need squat briefs in my opinion to do these and a monolift as too dangerous to walk out to super wide position.
Dont forget the spot on the wall dont ever stop looking at it

These two especially.

scholar88

Frank McGivney wrote: »

(3) Curve back in obviously, Deep breath, push hips out to take bar from rack,
One step back to shoulder width then the next foot (dont look down if you can at all just know it by feel)

So when you are trying to squat, indeed when you are working with any kind of weight, what kinda of 'arch' should your back be in?? As in shoulders back and hips exaggerated behind causing a C shape or tailbone in causing what I'd call more an arch?? Definitely a silly question and I always thought it was the first C shape until recently.

Frank McGivney

scholar88 wrote: »

So when you are trying to squat, indeed when you are working with any kind of weight, what kinda of 'arch' should your back be in?? As in shoulders back and hips exaggerated behind causing a C shape or tailbone in causing what I'd call more an arch?? Definitely a silly question and I always thought it was the first C shape until recently.

to be honest i wouldnt have any real technical knowledge just know what i did when i was lifting, but i always tried to arch back, so ass is out and upper back is out and low back is in, if that makes sense. With a nice tight belt on you and take deep breath into you belly and push belly out against belt and that helps to keep u back from bending the wrong way out,

deadlybuzzman

Antisocialiser wrote: »

Is the knees behind toes not just a prompt to get beginners' hips to hinge correctly?

I remember reading a piece by Dave Tate where he said when teaching beginners to squat he would have them do squats with no weight while standing facing a wall with toes actually touching the wall.
As well as getting people to break at the hips 1st, is it a technique to get all his clients squatting wide? as I tried it and didn't come even close with anything but a wide stance

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

I remember reading a piece by Dave Tate where he said when teaching beginners to squat he would have them do squats with no weight while standing facing a wall with toes actually touching the wall.
As well as getting people to break at the hips 1st, is it a technique to get all his clients squatting wide? as I tried it and didn't come even close with anything but a wide stance

That only actually works on the Internet.

You need to start most people about 6-12 inches back to be able to do it.

I can do it with my toes against the wall with a "normal" stance but it ain't easy.

Tiddlypeeps

scholar88 wrote: »

So when you are trying to squat, indeed when you are working with any kind of weight, what kinda of 'arch' should your back be in?? As in shoulders back and hips exaggerated behind causing a C shape or tailbone in causing what I'd call more an arch?? Definitely a silly question and I always thought it was the first C shape until recently.

I remember reading somewhere that the 'arch' your back thing at the start of a squat can be good and bad advice depending on how flexible the persons back is. The effect you want at the end of the day is to have your spine in what would pretty much be a neutral curve (the spin isn't naturally straight). If somebody is pretty flexible telling them to arch can result in injury because they over arch their spine. This is an issue I suffer with, I followed the gym instructors advice when she told me to arch my back before going in to the sitting position and this resulted in a real sharp pain in my lower spine every time. When I read up on it and discovered the above I started doing squats with my spine in a neutral position I didn't get pain anymore. I assume this is because my lower spine is pretty flexible from years of bad Archery form.

This is pretty anecdotal tho so in reality the pain going away could have been because any number of other things. I didn't save any links or anything from the stuff I was reading.

Also just an update on the OP, I think I'm pretty much able to squat parallel now so thanks for all the advice

alphabeat

why would you be looking UP at a spot on the wall in the bottom of a deep squat ?

Ant11

alphabeat wrote: »

why would you be looking UP at a spot on the wall in the bottom of a deep squat ?

You don't have to bend your head back to focus your eyes on a point on the wall, your head stays in neutral position. Let your eyes do the moving not your neck.

Hanley

alphabeat wrote: »

why would you be looking UP at a spot on the wall in the bottom of a deep squat ?

So you don't get kicked forward on th way up.

Frank McGivney

hey i cant give you some deep and detailed explaination about anatamy, all i know is its the way alot of powerlifters squat because it keeps u in right body position. When u look straight ahead or down u naturally bend over then you squat turns into a good morning or worse ( i seen this happen with load of new people when they come training and when they pick the spot it helps them alot). If you keep focused on a spot then you stay in same position going down as going up. Give it a try it might just work for u. Saying that i dont have no fancy degree in sports science so text books might say otherwise. it just my opinion

thegreatiam

Frank McGivney wrote: »

hey i cant give you some deep and detailed explaination about anatamy, all i know is its the way alot of powerlifters squat because it keeps u in right body position. When u look straight ahead or down u naturally bend over then you squat turns into a good morning or worse ( i seen this happen with load of new people when they come training and when they pick the spot it helps them alot). If you keep focused on a spot then you stay in same position going down as going up. Give it a try it might just work for u. Saying that i dont have no fancy degree in sports science so text books might say otherwise. it just my opinion

I dont pick a spot on the wall, but I do make sure to look at the top of my head in the mirror and dont take my eyes off it

That way I am still looking up but my head and neck will not change angle as I go from top to bottom.

probably much of a muchness, but I have a very sore neck and stiff thorax and I find this puts less pressure on them

Frank McGivney

hi its same thing , its just my little way of keeping my head up and ass down, helps people starting off but i think as u go along u just get set up right and u don't even realise u doing it.

Mellor

Frank McGivney wrote: »

to be honest i wouldnt have any real technical knowledge just know what i did when i was lifting, but i always tried to arch back, so ass is out and upper back is out and low back is in, if that makes sense. With a nice tight belt on you and take deep breath into you belly and push belly out against belt and that helps to keep u back from bending the wrong way out,

You have it mixed up.
Arched back means a convex shape, not humped over. Lying on a flat surface it makes an arch, etc
ie the natural curve of your spine.

Frank McGivney

yeah sorry u prob right, hard to describe what u mean in words, I just meant u have a bit of an arch in wards not a pronouced arch like in a bench just a bit of a one and then when u stand up it should go into a neutral position so that you dont end up humped (dont know if that makes sense) I have vid of me squatting and i think i doing that (arch isnt very big if their at all but i dont end up humped up which is the big thing) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI_CTL3OtCk the bench arch is prob more like this one (this only half decent vid i could come with but i suppose u can see me arching my big fat belly kind of ) http://youtu.be/SkcAfZSxFlY

alphabeat

good tips on the eyes ,
( only trouble is glasses wearers need a set of dennis taylors )