Can't squat low enough

thegreatiam

scholar88 wrote: »

I played with UCD GAA for years and we were involved with the high performance team. They taught me (what i believe) is the correct way to squat.

scholar88 wrote: »

Put simple when you squat the part of your legs between the knee and the toes should not move i.e the knee does not come out in front of the toe....

scholar88 wrote: »

i was told by sports scientists in one of the top universities in the country....

scholar88 wrote: »

I cant squat properly either

scholar88 wrote: »

When in UCD they put small weights under my heels to get me started, encouraged me to lift up through the heels.

Big_G wrote: »

Which actually allows your knees pass further beyond your toes.

Seems like they taught you incorrectly, only taught you like a beginner, or you miss-understood the exercise.
But from what I can see Big_G has a point, maybe they are using the weights under the heels, and telling you to not put your knees forward of your toes to get you, as a beginner, to flex at the hip first. Once you master this they take away the heel weight and allow your knees to come forward naturally, while you still flex from the hip as shown originally. thus making a better form squat.

scholar88 wrote: »

So what tests can i perform to find out the exact reason I cant do them? I am a fit individual and have always had exactly flexibility in hamstring tests and shoulder tests.... I EVEN DID YOGA!!! BUT I STILL CANT SQUAT!!

Try allowing the knees to come forward as everyone here recommends, see if that gets you any lower.

As someone new to learning the correct form of squatting I have yet to find an article anywhere which tells me to prevent my knees coming forward. I think it's old thinking and has recently been proven wrong, it's just taking time trickling into common knowledge.

Big_G

thegreatiam wrote: »

Seems like they taught you incorrectly, only taught you like a beginner, or you miss-understood the exercise.
But from what I can see Big_G has a point, maybe they are using the weights under the heels, and telling you to not put your knees forward of your toes to get you, as a beginner, to flex at the hip first. Once you master this they take away the heel weight and allow your knees to come forward naturally, while you still flex from the hip as shown originally. thus making a better form squat.

Try allowing the knees to come forward as everyone here recommends, see if that gets you any lower.

As someone new to learning the correct form of squatting I have yet to find an article anywhere which tells me to prevent my knees coming forward. I think it's old thinking and has recently been proven wrong, it's just taking time trickling into common knowledge.

I don't exactly advocate allowing the knees to come forward, it all depends on what style of squat you are doing and the dimensions of your body. I am open to correction here (Hanley is a man who is very knowledgable on these things amongst others here) but AFAIK squatting can be boiled down into two main styles, based on their respective competitions.

There is low bar squatting which is a more powerlifting style, designed to get you to a parallel position (upper leg parallel with floor) or just below with the most amount of weight possible. The high bar squat (bar on traps, knees over toes) is used by olympic lifters as an accessory exercise to their competition lifts the clean and jerk and the snatch.

Both styles have their respective advocates and there are loads of arguments for and against each style (see teh internets for all the various flamewars and arguments ad nauseum). I have seen people successfully squat heavy weights with both styles and lots of spectrum in between. I once saw a powerlifter squat 260 with the bar on his traps and sit way back with vertical shins. Looked really awkward and uncomfortable but he got the weight up.

For my training, I started training high bar (knees over toes, bar on traps) and realized that I had nowhere near the mobility to do that safely so I switched to low bar (bar lower on back, shins more upright but not perfectly vertical) because it has a decreased range of motion. Then I learned to sit back by putting a bar on my back and sitting down (also learned to activate hip flexors). All the while I was hammering mobility twice a day, sometimes three times, or if I was just standing around, and I'm still pretty immobile. I blame years of playing rugby and not knowing anything about mobility or indeed strength training.

I love the squat for many reasons but almost more than making me stronger (almost!) is it taught me how immobile I actually am. I still am immobile but I can comfortably get below parallel in a low bar squat which is a vast improvement over falling over the first time I tried to squat because my hips were so immobile that I couldn't balance properly in the hole, I kept falling backwards.


My point is don't worry too much about the small technical aspects of squatting. I also recommend getting a good coach or posting videos up on forums so more experienced people can give advice. I was coached by two people before getting coached by a powerlifter and spent almost a year squatting badly resulting in me damaging both SI joints which let me tell you is not a comfortable experience. Knees over toes is not as relevant as hip mobility in my opinion (again open to correction).

If you want to get deep in the hole, follow the advice above about mobility. Get a coach. Squat.

Big_G

I should say aswell that the other point I was making is it is not necessarily detrimental to allow your knees track forward as long as they don't track in.

Hanley

Big_G wrote: »

My point is don't worry too much about the small technical aspects of squatting. I also recommend getting a good coach or posting videos up on forums so more experienced people can give advice. I was coached by two people before getting coached by a powerlifter and spent almost a year squatting badly resulting in me damaging both SI joints which let me tell you is not a comfortable experience. Knees over toes is not as relevant as hip mobility in my opinion (again open to correction).

If you want to get deep in the hole, follow the advice above about mobility. Get a coach. Squat.

Full agree on most of what you said. I coached 2 squat workshops last weekend and my most emphasised point was this:

If you break at the hips and open the knees to sit down to at least parallel, while keeping a neutral lumbar spine and your feet flat on the floor, it really doesn't f*cking matter where your knees go in relation to your toes.

Your femur:tibia:torso ratios are going to make things different for everyone anyway. 2 dudes, both 5'10, one with a 29in inside leg and one with a 34in inside leg are going to have vastly different positions at the bottom of a squat if using the same bar position (either low bar OR high bar) and both are perfectly ok once they're abiding by the principles in the previous paragraph.

The biggest problem is that the people you see held up as "perfect" squat examples tend to be brutally strong and built perfectly for squatting. YOU (a given individual) may not be like that so stop putting your square peg in a round hole.

Frank McGivney

for around shoulder width squat this is what i found good:
(1) Pick a spot on wall just above eye level and look at this the whole of squat
(2) go in under bar squeese your shoulder blade together and you create a nice platform at shoulders to hold bar.
(3) Curve back in obviously, Deep breath, push hips out to take bar from rack,
One step back to shoulder width then the next foot (dont look down if you can at all just know it by feel)
(4) Big breath keeping you eye on the spot u picked, push you ass back and spread your knees out keeping your hips tight. As you go down keep pushing ass back and knees out until you as low as u want
(5) explode upwards and backwards (slightly), the barr is pushing you forward so by going slightly baxkwards you do in fact just go straight up.
(6) maintain erect postion (same position) on way up and down
(7) repeat until blood comes out your nose or ears or you start to pass out.
(8) Turn into monster
(9) Dont be afraid to be aggressive but in controlled way so on way up let the anger out but no need ofr this stupid crap people go on with before lift
Thats my opnion anyway. Course wide stance squat is much same except wider stance, hips turned out more , knees pushed out more and knees not as far if at all over the toes. but i think you need squat briefs in my opinion to do these and a monolift as too dangerous to walk out to super wide position.
Dont forget the spot on the wall dont ever stop looking at it

Big_G

Frank McGivney wrote: »

for around shoulder width squat this is what i found good:
(1) Pick a spot on wall just above eye level and look at this the whole of squat
(2) go in under bar squeese your shoulder blade together and you create a nice platform at shoulders to hold bar.
(3) Curve back in obviously, Deep breath, push hips out to take bar from rack,
One step back to shoulder width then the next foot (dont look down if you can at all just know it by feel)
(4) Big breath keeping you eye on the spot u picked, push you ass back and spread your knees out keeping your hips tight. As you go down keep pushing ass back and knees out until you as low as u want
(5) explode upwards and backwards (slightly), the barr is pushing you forward so by going slightly baxkwards you do in fact just go straight up.
(6) maintain erect postion (same position) on way up and down
(7) repeat until blood comes out your nose or ears or you start to pass out.
(8) Turn into monster
(9) Dont be afraid to be aggressive but in controlled way so on way up let the anger out but no need ofr this stupid crap people go on with before lift
Thats my opnion anyway. Course wide stance squat is much same except wider stance, hips turned out more , knees pushed out more and knees not as far if at all over the toes. but i think you need squat briefs in my opinion to do these and a monolift as too dangerous to walk out to super wide position.
Dont forget the spot on the wall dont ever stop looking at it

These two especially.

scholar88

Frank McGivney wrote: »

(3) Curve back in obviously, Deep breath, push hips out to take bar from rack,
One step back to shoulder width then the next foot (dont look down if you can at all just know it by feel)

So when you are trying to squat, indeed when you are working with any kind of weight, what kinda of 'arch' should your back be in?? As in shoulders back and hips exaggerated behind causing a C shape or tailbone in causing what I'd call more an arch?? Definitely a silly question and I always thought it was the first C shape until recently.

Frank McGivney

scholar88 wrote: »

So when you are trying to squat, indeed when you are working with any kind of weight, what kinda of 'arch' should your back be in?? As in shoulders back and hips exaggerated behind causing a C shape or tailbone in causing what I'd call more an arch?? Definitely a silly question and I always thought it was the first C shape until recently.

to be honest i wouldnt have any real technical knowledge just know what i did when i was lifting, but i always tried to arch back, so ass is out and upper back is out and low back is in, if that makes sense. With a nice tight belt on you and take deep breath into you belly and push belly out against belt and that helps to keep u back from bending the wrong way out,

deadlybuzzman

Antisocialiser wrote: »

Is the knees behind toes not just a prompt to get beginners' hips to hinge correctly?

I remember reading a piece by Dave Tate where he said when teaching beginners to squat he would have them do squats with no weight while standing facing a wall with toes actually touching the wall.
As well as getting people to break at the hips 1st, is it a technique to get all his clients squatting wide? as I tried it and didn't come even close with anything but a wide stance

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

I remember reading a piece by Dave Tate where he said when teaching beginners to squat he would have them do squats with no weight while standing facing a wall with toes actually touching the wall.
As well as getting people to break at the hips 1st, is it a technique to get all his clients squatting wide? as I tried it and didn't come even close with anything but a wide stance

That only actually works on the Internet.

You need to start most people about 6-12 inches back to be able to do it.

I can do it with my toes against the wall with a "normal" stance but it ain't easy.

Tiddlypeeps

scholar88 wrote: »

So when you are trying to squat, indeed when you are working with any kind of weight, what kinda of 'arch' should your back be in?? As in shoulders back and hips exaggerated behind causing a C shape or tailbone in causing what I'd call more an arch?? Definitely a silly question and I always thought it was the first C shape until recently.

I remember reading somewhere that the 'arch' your back thing at the start of a squat can be good and bad advice depending on how flexible the persons back is. The effect you want at the end of the day is to have your spine in what would pretty much be a neutral curve (the spin isn't naturally straight). If somebody is pretty flexible telling them to arch can result in injury because they over arch their spine. This is an issue I suffer with, I followed the gym instructors advice when she told me to arch my back before going in to the sitting position and this resulted in a real sharp pain in my lower spine every time. When I read up on it and discovered the above I started doing squats with my spine in a neutral position I didn't get pain anymore. I assume this is because my lower spine is pretty flexible from years of bad Archery form.

This is pretty anecdotal tho so in reality the pain going away could have been because any number of other things. I didn't save any links or anything from the stuff I was reading.

Also just an update on the OP, I think I'm pretty much able to squat parallel now so thanks for all the advice

alphabeat

why would you be looking UP at a spot on the wall in the bottom of a deep squat ?

Ant11

alphabeat wrote: »

why would you be looking UP at a spot on the wall in the bottom of a deep squat ?

You don't have to bend your head back to focus your eyes on a point on the wall, your head stays in neutral position. Let your eyes do the moving not your neck.

Hanley

alphabeat wrote: »

why would you be looking UP at a spot on the wall in the bottom of a deep squat ?

So you don't get kicked forward on th way up.

Frank McGivney

hey i cant give you some deep and detailed explaination about anatamy, all i know is its the way alot of powerlifters squat because it keeps u in right body position. When u look straight ahead or down u naturally bend over then you squat turns into a good morning or worse ( i seen this happen with load of new people when they come training and when they pick the spot it helps them alot). If you keep focused on a spot then you stay in same position going down as going up. Give it a try it might just work for u. Saying that i dont have no fancy degree in sports science so text books might say otherwise. it just my opinion

thegreatiam

Frank McGivney wrote: »

hey i cant give you some deep and detailed explaination about anatamy, all i know is its the way alot of powerlifters squat because it keeps u in right body position. When u look straight ahead or down u naturally bend over then you squat turns into a good morning or worse ( i seen this happen with load of new people when they come training and when they pick the spot it helps them alot). If you keep focused on a spot then you stay in same position going down as going up. Give it a try it might just work for u. Saying that i dont have no fancy degree in sports science so text books might say otherwise. it just my opinion

I dont pick a spot on the wall, but I do make sure to look at the top of my head in the mirror and dont take my eyes off it

That way I am still looking up but my head and neck will not change angle as I go from top to bottom.

probably much of a muchness, but I have a very sore neck and stiff thorax and I find this puts less pressure on them

Frank McGivney

hi its same thing , its just my little way of keeping my head up and ass down, helps people starting off but i think as u go along u just get set up right and u don't even realise u doing it.

Mellor

Frank McGivney wrote: »

to be honest i wouldnt have any real technical knowledge just know what i did when i was lifting, but i always tried to arch back, so ass is out and upper back is out and low back is in, if that makes sense. With a nice tight belt on you and take deep breath into you belly and push belly out against belt and that helps to keep u back from bending the wrong way out,

You have it mixed up.
Arched back means a convex shape, not humped over. Lying on a flat surface it makes an arch, etc
ie the natural curve of your spine.

Frank McGivney

yeah sorry u prob right, hard to describe what u mean in words, I just meant u have a bit of an arch in wards not a pronouced arch like in a bench just a bit of a one and then when u stand up it should go into a neutral position so that you dont end up humped (dont know if that makes sense) I have vid of me squatting and i think i doing that (arch isnt very big if their at all but i dont end up humped up which is the big thing) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI_CTL3OtCk the bench arch is prob more like this one (this only half decent vid i could come with but i suppose u can see me arching my big fat belly kind of ) http://youtu.be/SkcAfZSxFlY

alphabeat

good tips on the eyes ,
( only trouble is glasses wearers need a set of dennis taylors )

funkey_monkey

Hi, I hope it is okay for me to post here too.

I'm having some difficulty squatting too. It seems that I do not have sufficient felxibility in hips as when on the way down I feel a tightness/impingement at the top front of my leg where the femur meets the hip socket.

What warmups and stretches are recommened prior to squatting? I am currently trying yoga to help improve things but I find I am not practicing enough as I need the class for discipline.

Also, can I squat in my socks/bare feet or must I buy the squatting shoes that seem really popular?

zzfh

lookup mobility wod ankle flexibility...buy weightlifting shoes,or use 2.5kg weights under heels if you cant afford them as they are quiet expensive.