Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

itzme

They're all great points and I'll take my time to read through them and digest more thoroughly but I think you've taken my point wrong. I wasn't calling for Performance management on pay for the whole PS as a solution as I don't see pay being the biggest problem in the PS.

I was highlighting my own view that the minority of workers suffer from motivation problems and that the biggest issue is one of their efficiency and work practices. This is linked to management not doing their jobs right at motivating their staff and maintaining the highest standards and work-rate for the staff. This is because managers are not being held accountable for their staffs performance and in turn the staff are not being held accountable to their managers. In places this is not the fault of the managers. For instance, take a principal in a school. They are the managers of the school and the staff. Yet they have no control over rewarding/controlling pay of their staff. The job of inspections is being done "objectively", their ability to control their staff is completely removed from them giving their staff too much autonomy. This is too common in the PS where the general staff have too much autonomy.

So my points were meant to be in the vein of how to get the managers to care more about their staff and also seperately to this we need to give them the power and ability to be in control of their staff. In that way, they are being given the tools to be responsible for their staff and in turn should be held responsible for their staffs performance.

On motivation and pay, its accepted that in skilled jobs money is not the primary driving factor when the pay is high enough for a person to have a comfortable living (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc). Mastery, purpose and autonomy are. I completely agree with you on the point that performance related pay is not the right tool for the whole PS. A one size fits all approach for ~300,000 workers working with children, adults, senior citizens, sick, disabled, tax payers..... will end up fitting none. An interesting short piece from the states on this issue relating to teachers by the guy who created the video above is http://www.danpink.com/2012/02/eight-points-about-merit-pay-for-teachers.

n97 mini

Lumbo wrote: »

Waivers for Pensioners and the Unemployed don't come cheap. Are Private Sector refuse collectors offering these waivers?

I'm not sure who is funding the waivers. Since AES took over Kildare Co Co refuse collection there is still a waiver system in place, but the fact is it was outsourced as the overall cost was cheaper, even if it costs more to the end user.

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

Apple operate like that. You cannot buy a phone or music player that uses iTunes unless you buy it from Apple so they keep their prices as high as possible.

There are many other examples of private sector companies operating like that. In fact the abuse of monopolies by private sector companies is one of the justifications for public goods and public services in that having democratically elected politicians overseeing the monopoly services is better than having private sector oligarchs looking after their own interests (well, in theory anyway)

I think you are getting more than a little bit confused here. Apple is not a monopoly. Itunes is proprietary software (and a store that also sells, amongst other things, proprietary software). This is not a unique business model, indeed probably its biggest competitor (of which there are more than one, since it is not a monopoly) is google play which operate in a similar manner. Other companies such as Microsoft (e.g. Xbox live) sony (e,g, playstation network) amongst other also operate this way and none of these are considered monopolies either.

In fact Music is sold on Itunes as DRM free, thus you don't actually need an apple device to play it (same for renting movies from Itunes). I personally use Itunes as it is a good podcast manager, despite not owning any apple devices.

OMD

not yet wrote: »

In reference to your last qoute.........

Now feel free to ignore this information if it doesn't fit in with the agenda you follow.

PS average wage is inclusive of all salaries, including 250k for consultants, 250k for professors, 250 for special advisers etc etc etc.

The private sector does not include bank managers, heads of multi nationals, self employed hotel owners or most big business people.

Now as you can see this would distort the figure ever so slightly. Just saying like.

This is brought up so often it has to be commented on. Very few in public sector earn above €250 so their effect on the average would be marginal.
On the other hand, large numbers of public sector work part time or some work term time. These people obviously earn less and so bring average down. This is one of the reasons public sector workers overall work fewer hours than private sector (for more pay).

tenton

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

• an end to automatic increments based on time served
• Redundancies to made in areas that are not currently productive (an example being the planning offices all over the country that have little or no work)
• 10% pay cut for anyone earning over 100k
• 5% for anyone earning between 40-100k
• Increase the working week to 39 hours in areas where it is currently less than this

Excellent constructive suggestions. We all - well, most Irish people / people in Ireland - know lots of people in the public service, be they family, friends, relatives , neighbours, clubmates. We all know its overpaid and overpensioned, and over-staffed in many areas. Time to get real.

creedp

OMD wrote: »

This is brought up so often it has to be commented on. Very few in public sector earn above €250 so their effect on the average would be marginal.
On the other hand, large numbers of public sector work part time or some work term time. These people obviously earn less and so bring average down. This is one of the reasons public sector workers overall work fewer hours than private sector (for more pay).

It also worth commenting on the fact that the variation in av wage is very significant across the private sector so while the average for the entire private sector is €620pw, the av in industry is €826pw; av in financial, insurance and real estate is €1,019 while the av is accommodation and catering is €305.

So when people keep referring to the private sector average being €620pw while in the public sector it is €912 they can thank the lowly paid accommodation and catering colleagues for hwelping to make theoverall private sector wage appear so low. Where would people be without that €305pw to support this argument? By the way these figures are taken from CSO Qtr 1 2012 earnings publication. Finally, I know I will be hammered for raising this again but also the PS figure has not been adjusted for the pension levy which average 7.5% ... duck

By the way I was just looking at the the CSO Earnings and Labour costs for Qtr 2 2012 and read an interesting stat - in the 3 years Q3 2012 weekly earnings in the PS have decreased by 4% (excluding the pension levy for non semi-state PS) while they increased by 1.4% in the private sector. Kind of debunks the usual old line of 50% pay cuts across the private sector.

Cookie_Monster

not yet wrote: »

privitisation= greed=profits= minimum wage and so on.....

The people who invest in these private industries want profits at all costs,

BS

nobody runs a business to make profits at all costs, otherwise they'd fail and fail quickly. There's all sorts of things to take into account, not least public and customer perception, which is becoming a bigger and bigger deal.
A good product / service delivered well, with good support for a fair price will bring better long term returns over short term and that's the entire goal behind running a business.

That said the UK / Irl business model is fairly unique in being far more shareholder and profit driven than most

Gumbo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

BS

nobody runs a business to make profits at all costs, otherwise they'd fail and fail quickly. There's all sorts of things to take into account, not least public and customer perception, which is becoming a bigger and bigger deal.
A good product / service delivered well, with good support for a fair price will bring better long term returns over short term and that's the entire goal behind running a business.

That said the UK / Irl business model is fairly unique in being far more shareholder and profit driven than most

Customer Service doesnt pay the bills or get repeat customers

My local camera shop has excellent customer service, but i still bough my camera from Simply Electronics in Hong Kong. I still bought my phone up North and i actively buy/sell on ebay.

If theres no profit to be made in a particular service it wont work long term in the private sector.

tenton wrote: »

Excellent constructive suggestions. We all - well, most Irish people / people in Ireland - know lots of people in the public service, be they family, friends, relatives , neighbours, clubmates. We all know its overpaid and overpensioned, and over-staffed in many areas. Time to get real.

They are obviously not real friends or real family, if you have to resort to making up lies on a public forum.

antoobrien

kceire wrote: »

Customer Service doesnt pay the bills or get repeat customers

You would be the exception that proves the rule. CS does keep customers - poor CS makes them leave. It may well be seen as a cost, but it is one that there is a benefit to as hard as it is to quantify or put a monitery value on.

I worked callcenter for a number of large Irish & UK companies while I was in college/just finished. They took their CS very seriously because it helped bring customers back.

NTL/UPC is the prime example of that - people left them because of the perception that their CS was crap (and it was poor). It took them years to turn it around (i.m.o. they have done so spectacularly) and it's winning them back customers.

Tea drinker

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

BS

nobody runs a business to make profits at all costs, otherwise they'd fail and fail quickly. There's all sorts of things to take into account, not least public and customer perception, which is becoming a bigger and bigger deal.
A good product / service delivered well, with good support for a fair price will bring better long term returns over short term and that's the entire goal behind running a business.

That said the UK / Irl business model is fairly unique in being far more shareholder and profit driven than most

Doesn't seem to apply to the banks ? They incompetetently ran their biz into the ground and then turned and stole from their customers.
Biz still going relatively well, no witch hunt, any consequences? The ironic things is it's gov dept which should have protected Irish citizens from this attack, but they ignored/covered up the problem and finally organised the wealth transfer.

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

Apple operate like that. You cannot buy a phone or music player that uses iTunes unless you buy it from Apple so they keep their prices as high as possible.

There are many other examples of private sector companies operating like that. In fact the abuse of monopolies by private sector companies is one of the justifications for public goods and public services in that having democratically elected politicians overseeing the monopoly services is better than having private sector oligarchs looking after their own interests (well, in theory anyway)

Yes but it has competition from other companies giving the exact same service. Apple may entice you in to their domain and then screw you but you if they continue to do so the user can buy say an asteroid and get a better service

fliball123

not yet wrote: »

privitisation= greed=profits= minimum wage and so on.....

The people who invest in these private industries want profits at all costs, When the job is done by the PS, profit is not the main driving force behind the service, hence it's nearly always cheaper

Examples, Driving licences 20e PS-55e privatised

Bin Collection 120e PS over 200e privatised, and the list will grow over the next ten years as our government privatise as much as they can.

We can argue this till the cows come home, lads the only equation or sum that is anyway important is that we are borrowing 2million an hour to service public sector pay, pensions, services and social welfare, the tax payer the income part of this equation has been hit 5 years on the trot. Now how much longer do you think the tax payer will take this hit and not hit back. Lets see how the property tax goes this year. The unions would want to be careful a strike would cause disruption and it would also cause outrage amongst tax payers who have been bent over and taking the pinapple up the hole for the last 5 years. You had a pay cut 3 years ago and have been left pretty much alone since. Bar the tinkering around the edges of the cpa which we should of got for the 2 benchmarking exercises. I would hazard a guess that there would be twice as many tax payers on the street telling the public sector to get on with their jobs and take another pay cut for the good of the country when we are on our knees (and by all means reverse these pay cuts when times are better) but to continue to ask more tax from a ever decreasing pool of tax payers cannot continue. I have sympathy with those in the ps particularly those in the front line and on the lower wage, but the simple economics of the situation is we cannot continue burying our head in the sand. Also welfare will have to take a hit aswell, but to think that a fairly sizeable chunk of our expenditure (ps pay and pensions) should be off the table indefinately and only increased through increments is absolutely crazy

itzme

fliball123 wrote: »

We can argue this till the cows come home, lads the only equation or sum that is anyway important is that we are borrowing 2million an hour to service public sector pay, pensions, services and social welfare, the tax payer the income part of this equation has been hit 5 years on the trot. Now how much longer do you think the tax payer will take this hit and not hit back. Lets see how the property tax goes this year. The unions would want to be careful a strike would cause disruption and it would also cause outrage amongst tax payers who have been bent over and taking the pinapple up the hole for the last 5 years. You had a pay cut 3 years ago and have been left pretty much alone since. Bar the tinkering around the edges of the cpa which we should of got for the 2 benchmarking exercises. I would hazard a guess that there would be twice as many tax payers on the street telling the public sector to get on with their jobs and take another pay cut for the good of the country when we are on our knees (and by all means reverse these pay cuts when times are better) but to continue to ask more tax from a ever decreasing pool of tax payers cannot continue. I have sympathy with those in the ps particularly those in the front line and on the lower wage, but the simple economics of the situation is we cannot continue burying our head in the sand. Also welfare will have to take a hit aswell, but to think that a fairly sizeable chunk of our expenditure (ps pay and pensions) should be off the table indefinately and only increased through increments is absolutely crazy

Three things on this rant

First, you say the taxpayer has been hit for 5 years and how much longer will it be. That's already answered 2015. There is a plan with fiscal targets, so far they have been met and we are on target to a manageable deficit. So this alarmist approach of "how much longer..." is pointless. Read up on the targets come back if you think they aren't achievable and with why.

Second, the PS are taxpayers too so have been hit by the USC, the property tax and all the other taxes stealth or otherwise that the private sector worker has been hit with.

Third, if you're going to talk about ps pay and pensions please keep the figures consistent with that. So 2 million an hour borrowed to pay for ps pay, pensions, services, social welfare is meaningless.

Why not come to the discussion with something more than time stamped figures which don't even fit with the point you're making. What is the borrowing figure per year? what is the percentage of the expenditure going to ps pay and pensions? What was the amount in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012? is it going down, by how much annually? If the rate of change is continued when would it reach an acceptable amount?

not yet

tenton wrote: »

Excellent constructive suggestions. We all - well, most Irish people / people in Ireland - know lots of people in the public service, be they family, friends, relatives , neighbours, clubmates. We all know its overpaid and overpensioned, and over-staffed in many areas. Time to get real.

Who's we...?

Give 1 example of overpaid and one of over staffed, or do you need to consult with ''we'' to get it straight.

antoobrien

not yet wrote: »

Who's we...?

Give 1 example of overpaid and one of over staffed, or do you need to consult with ''we'' to get it straight.

HSE administration on both counts.

not yet

antoobrien wrote: »

HSE administration on both counts.

Agreed, but you jumped in to soon, the point I was making is people jump on this band wagon to quickly.

antoobrien

not yet wrote: »

Agreed, but you jumped in to soon, the point I was making is people jump on this band wagon to quickly.

Not really the point is very valid - most Irish people directly know someone in an area of the PS that is overstaffed or overpaid or have read the reports in the newspapers.

Two examples I can give you:

The "put upon" hospital porters in UCHG. 10 of them went on strike a couple of years ago and nobody noticed (apart from wondering what the 10 yahoos were at standing out at the front gate). If that amount of slack can be picked up that handily then there's a lot of overstaffing going on in that sector.

It was reported that there are hundreds of posts in a government department ( I think it was agriculture) that were technically redundant (no work for them) but they couldn't be redeployed (before CPA). This have have been resolved since (didn't hear one way or the other).

fliball123

itzme wrote: »

Three things on this rant

First, you say the taxpayer has been hit for 5 years and how much longer will it be. That's already answered 2015. There is a plan with fiscal targets, so far they have been met and we are on target to a manageable deficit. So this alarmist approach of "how much longer..." is pointless. Read up on the targets come back if you think they aren't achievable and with why.

Second, the PS are taxpayers too so have been hit by the USC, the property tax and all the other taxes stealth or otherwise that the private sector worker has been hit with.

Third, if you're going to talk about ps pay and pensions please keep the figures consistent with that. So 2 million an hour borrowed to pay for ps pay, pensions, services, social welfare is meaningless.

Why not come to the discussion with something more than time stamped figures which don't even fit with the point you're making. What is the borrowing figure per year? what is the percentage of the expenditure going to ps pay and pensions? What was the amount in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012? is it going down, by how much annually? If the rate of change is continued when would it reach an acceptable amount?

My alarmist approach is the way the property tax situation is currently being played out. AS for the rest of your response what part of borrowing 2 million an hour to pay for this do you not understand or in your words think its meaningless. To pay the levels we are paying we are borrowing the money and it has to be paid back with interest and even without a banking clusterfck this would be the case

RobbieTheRobber

fliball123 wrote: »

My alarmist approach is the way the property tax situation is currently being played out. AS for the rest of your response what part of borrowing 2 million an hour to pay for this do you not understand or in your words think its meaningless. To pay the levels we are paying we are borrowing the money and it has to be paid back with interest and even without a banking clusterfck this would be the case

We are not borrowing 2 million per hour to pay PS wages, this is hyperbole and nothing else.

If you cannot make your case without having to resort to misinformation then I wont take your point seriously.

Firstly the correction the minister for Public expenditure is looking for from the public service over the whole lifetime of any deal is not even remotely near 2 million an hour.

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

We are not borrowing 2 million per hour to pay PS wages, this is hyperbole and nothing else.

If you cannot make your case without having to resort to misinformation then I wont take your point seriously.

Firstly the correction the minister for Public expenditure is looking for from the public service over the whole lifetime of any deal is not even remotely near 2 million an hour.

To be fair, the poster actually said

"2million an hour to service public sector pay, pensions, services and social welfare,".

I don't know what the actual figure per hour is, but the government does spend a lot on the 4 items above.

RobbieTheRobber

sarumite wrote: »

To be fair, the poster actually said

"2million an hour to service public sector pay, pensions, services and social welfare,".

I don't know what the actual figure per hour is, but the government does spend a lot on the 4 items above.

I appreciate that this poster has made many comments using exactly the same themes, however in the post I quoted they do appear to be attributing the full €2 million to pay.

"To be fair" I think it helps a discussion on "Croke Park II" not one jot to discuss government over-spending which is not within the remit of any future agreement to come from the meetings between Howlin and the PS unions.

OMD

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I appreciate that this poster has made many comments using exactly the same themes, however in the post I quoted they do appear to be attributing the full €2 million to pay.

"To be fair" I think it helps a discussion on "Croke Park II" not one jot to discuss government over-spending which is not within the remit of any future agreement to come from the meetings between Howlin and the PS unions.

Cost of public sector pay is about €1,500,000 an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 hours a week.

RobbieTheRobber

OMD wrote: »

Cost of public sector pay is about €1,500,000 an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 hours a week.

Before or after tax and are you deducting the pension levy?

Gumbo

OMD wrote: »

Cost of public sector pay is about €1,500,000 an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 hours a week.

1.314 X10^10 Bn

What headline figure are you using to get to this cost? And where are you getting it from?

• According to figures presented payroll for the health sector cost €7.1bn last year.
• the garda pay bill in 2012 was almost €956m.
• local government sector, which employs 28,344 employees nationwide, came to just under €1.25bn last year.
• The defence sector accounts for 3.5% of the public sector pay bill. (No headline figure given)

OMD

kceire wrote: »

1.314 X10^10 Bn

What headline figure are you using to get to this cost? And where are you getting it from?

• According to figures presented payroll for the health sector cost €7.1bn last year.
• the garda pay bill in 2012 was almost €956m.
• local government sector, which employs 28,344 employees nationwide, came to just under €1.25bn last year.
• The defence sector accounts for 3.5% of the public sector pay bill. (No headline figure given)

You might want to add teachers and civil servants.

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I appreciate that this poster has made many comments using exactly the same themes, however in the post I quoted they do appear to be attributing the full €2 million to pay.

"To be fair" I think it helps a discussion on "Croke Park II" not one jot to discuss government over-spending which is not within the remit of any future agreement to come from the meetings between Howlin and the PS unions.

No it doesn't, it is clearly referring to the previous post which is on the same page.

I think the remit of any future agreement is to reach a compromise on how best to reduce spending. Over-spending by the government is clearly an important aspect as to why the government want to reduce the costs.

RobbieTheRobber

sarumite wrote: »

No it doesn't, it is clearly referring to the previous post which is on the same page.

No it isn't clear!
I don't understand why you are taking such a truculent approach to me but so be it.

sarumite wrote: »

I think the remit of any future agreement is to reach a compromise on how best to reduce spending. Over-spending by the government is clearly an important aspect as to why the government want to reduce the costs.

The department of Expenditure state this about the Croke park agreement

"The Public Service or “Croke Park” Agreement is a commitment by public servants and their managers to work together to change the way in which the Public Service does its business so that both its cost and the number of people working in the Public Service can fall significantly, while continuing to meet the need for services and improve the experience of service users."
http://per.gov.ie/croke-park-agreement/

No where does that indicate that public servants should be held accountable for the rates of welfare spending in Ireland, nor does the letter Mr Howlin sent on the 8th of January to ICTU indicate that such would be within the remit of any new agreement.

So why is that you believe it is?

OMD

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No where does that indicate that public servants should be held accountable for the rates of welfare spending in Ireland, nor does the letter Mr Howlin sent on the 8th of January to ICTU indicate that such would be within the remit of any new agreement.

So why is that you believe it is?

I think first you should point out why you think he believes it. My reading if his post does not lead me to the same conclusion as you.

RobbieTheRobber

OMD wrote: »

I think first you should point out why you think he believes it. My reading if his post does not lead me to the same conclusion as you.

Perhaps your reading "his" post wrong then!

Gumbo

OMD wrote: »

You might want to add teachers and civil servants.

Thats why im asking what total figure you are using, my list is not exhaustive.
So, are you gona show what figure you are using and where you are getting it from?

OMD

kceire wrote: »

Thats why im asking what total figure you are using, my list is not exhaustive.
So, are you gona show what figure you are using and where you are getting it from?

From previous posts in this forum such as theflowing from Godge:
"in 2011 the pay bill will amount to €14,737m, a decrease of 10.5% over the 2009 figure of
€16,471m"

He quoted this to back up his claims. I rounded the figures.

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Analysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2006-2011.pdf

Godge

tenton wrote: »

Excellent constructive suggestions. We all - well, most Irish people / people in Ireland - know lots of people in the public service, be they family, friends, relatives , neighbours, clubmates. We all know its overpaid and overpensioned, and over-staffed in many areas. Time to get real.

That is a very simplistic over-generalised anecdote that probably lacks any semblance of reality.

It is like saying that we all know lots of people in the private sector and we know that they are on nixers, fiddling the dole, hiding money from the taxman, over-stating expenses, taking payments on the side etc.

It is not true and not much of a contribution to the debate.

Godge

antoobrien wrote: »

HSE administration on both counts.

Prove this with hard figures.

Did you know that hospital manager's hands are tied because of the behaiour of consultants who refuse to recognise that cost restrictions exist and who at national level refuse to agree to work practice changes that will generate efficiencies.

OMD

Godge wrote: »

Prove this with hard figures.

Did you know that hospital manager's hands are tied because of the behaiour of consultants who refuse to recognise that cost restrictions exist and who at national level refuse to agree to work practice changes that will generate efficiencies.

Examples please of consultants refusing practice changes that will generate efficiencies. If you are going to discuss weekend discharges please provide evidence

noodler

Trokia report after troika report remarks on how well our public servants are paid compared to international equivalents.

Jesus I wish we'd stop protesting that point at every single jucture.

Yes, it isn't true for everybody but that allow for a "its all lies" approach either.

Gumbo

OMD wrote: »

Examples please of consultants refusing practice changes that will generate efficiencies. If you are going to discuss weekend discharges please provide evidence

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1023/1224325578478.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1025/breaking3.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/consultants-refuse-to-pay-fines-for-breaking-private-practice-quotas-2859473.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1025/ihca-health-labour-court.html

http://novusmedica.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/consultant-group-refusing-to-attend-hearing-on-work-practice-reforms/

noodler wrote: »

Trokia report after troika report remarks on how well our public servants are paid compared to international equivalents.

Jesus I wish we'd stop protesting that point at every single jucture.

Yes, it isn't true for everybody but that allow for a "its all lies" approach either.

I suppose it works both ways, if people came on and outlined constructively why and where should be cut then people can listen and argue for or against it. Its when alot of people come in and rant/mouth off untrue figures, lies and blatant ignorance of the facts that doesnt do any favours for both sides of the argument.

For instance the average salary in the Local Authority sector is 39k, but yet these staff would be lumbered in with the "Average PS salary is 49k crowd"
Same with the private sector, people post that the average private sector wage is only 620 per week, when agains, that is across all disiplines. Average Industry wage is over 800e, insurance/banking is over 1k per week, but average in the hotel industry is circa 300e per week.

tenton

OMD wrote: »

Cost of public sector pay is about €1,500,000 an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 hours a week.

The main reason its so high is because of inefficiency and high pay. The country of Ireland has the same population as greater manchester and yet has 0.3 million highly paid and pensioned public servants feeding off it. A close relation was back from England over Christmas and he was saying how so many English public servants are on 20 / 22 / 24 k a year.

woodoo

The problem isn't the public service. The problem is welfare bill and the lack of work. What are the government going to do about the 21 billion welfare bill.

Public servants have given alot.

tenton

woodoo wrote: »

Public servants have are given alot.

the dole and social welfare needs to be reduced too, but the elephant in the room is still the absurd public pay and pensions of the top 70 to 80% of public servants.

OMD

kceire wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1023/1224325578478.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1025/breaking3.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/consultants-refuse-to-pay-fines-for-breaking-private-practice-quotas-2859473.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1025/ihca-health-labour-court.html

http://novusmedica.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/consultant-group-refusing-to-attend-hearing-on-work-practice-reforms/

These do not refer to the consultants refusing efficiencies. This is about the consultants having serious misgivings about government policy. What the government want is for consultants to spread their working week over 7 days. The consultants have no problem with that. What they point out is that this will cost the taxpayer more. The reason being is that unless you employ more consultants, having more working on Saturday and Sunday means less working Mon-Fri. In addition to this, the main reason operations are not performed and waiting lists are growing is not a lack of operating time but the lack of available beds to put patients in after the surgery. All over Ireland consultants are being told they cannot do routine surgery because there are no beds.

The HSE would have you believe there are no consultants working weekends. This is untrue. Consultants on call (who are doing the on-call at a much cheaper rate than their normal daily rate) see patients and discharge people when appropriate.

You may say, well surely consultants could do out patients on a Sunday. At least that would help reduce Out Patient waiting lists. Yes it would but at what cost? All the other workers, nurses, porters, radiographers, lab staff etc would all be earning double time so the cost of seeing patients on a Sunday would be much higher than seeing them on a Monday.

The HSE have come up with a half baked plan and are trying to claim they are trying to make hospitals more efficient.

What consultants are doing is increasing their workload and treating more patients with less resources.

Head The Wall

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No where does that indicate that public servants should be held accountable for the rates of welfare spending in Ireland, nor does the letter Mr Howlin sent on the 8th of January to ICTU indicate that such would be within the remit of any new agreement.

So why is that you believe it is?

Considering all payments have to come out of the same pot it is a bit naive on your part to think that overspending and waste in the govt is not going to impinge on what is left to pay ye at the end of the day.

Another example of a PS worker living in a bubble detached from the real world.

Gumbo

tenton wrote: »

A close relation was back from England over Christmas and he was saying how so many English public servants are on 20 / 22 / 24 k a year.

My cousin was home from the UK at christmas too, and she couldnt get over how expensive day to day things are here compared to the UK. She said she wont be coming home anytime soon.

repsol

tenton wrote: »

The main reason its so high is because of inefficiency and high pay. The country of Ireland has the same population as greater manchester and yet has 0.3 million highly paid and pensioned public servants feeding off it. A close relation was back from England over Christmas and he was saying how so many English public servants are on 20 / 22 / 24 k a year.

When all the dole claimants here are on the UK rates,we can consider moving the PS to UK rates also.The taxes would also have to be brought into line with the (scrapping VRT for example) and other costs such as health insurance would have to be the same.You cannot chose the UK system on an A La Carte basis,you have to take the good with the bad.You want UK wages you have to have UK costs of living.

I would hazard a guess that your relative is not a UK public servant as the vast majority of them would be working at Christmas and would not have been able to go on a little holiday to engage in a little PS bashing over the Xmas dinner table.I hope you enjoyed Xmas with your family while many Gardai ,nurses,firemen,prison officers were unable to spend Xmas with their families as they had to work.I don't know if you have a job but if you do I am sure you are paid more than your equivalent in the UK.

OMD

repsol wrote: »

When all the dole claimants here are on the UK rates,we can consider moving the PS to UK rates also.The taxes would also have to be brought into line with the (scrapping VRT for example) and other costs such as health insurance would have to be the same.You cannot chose the UK system on an A La Carte basis,you have to take the good with the bad.You want UK wages you have to have UK costs of living.

Not forgetting higher taxes, water rates and much higher council tax. Add higher petrol costs as well. Don't forget higher rent costs and so many other costs that are higher in UK. Overall UK cost of living is about 3% less than Ireland

tenton

OMD wrote: »

Not forgetting higher taxes, water rates and much higher council tax. Add higher petrol costs as well. Don't forget higher rent costs and so many other costs that are higher in UK. Overall UK cost of living is about 3% less than Ireland

Property tax is much higher in the UK...shoes are cheaper in Ireland than UK. Many things are cheaper in Ireland. You cannot seriously complain about the price of many things in Ireland now. Was in Pennys the other day and saw clothes for next to nothing. McDonalds sell hamburgers for a euro. You can buy a 2 - bedroom apartment in many parts of Ireland for less than a years public service salary now. You cannot do that in England or anywhere else. I think everyone knows in Croke Park2 that there will rightfully be major cuts, as the country cannot afford to overpay so many so much for so long.

OMD

tenton wrote: »

Property tax is much higher in the UK...shoes are cheaper in Ireland than UK. Many things are cheaper in Ireland. You cannot seriously complain about the price of many things in Ireland now. Was in Pennys the other day and saw clothes for next to nothing. McDonalds sell hamburgers for a euro. You can buy a 2 - bedroom apartment in many parts of Ireland for less than a years public service salary now. You cannot do that in England or anywhere else. I think everyone knows in Croke Park2 that there will rightfully be major cuts, as the country cannot afford to overpay so many so much for so long.

Agree fully. My post was saying how dear so many things are in UK

repsol

OMD wrote: »

Not forgetting higher taxes, water rates and much higher council tax. Add higher petrol costs as well. Don't forget higher rent costs and so many other costs that are higher in UK. Overall UK cost of living is about 3% less than Ireland

There are huge variations within the UK alone.The cost of living in London is way above the cost of living in Newcastle for example.I can tell you as a member of the PS that the feeling is we have given as much as we can.If we are pushed any further I can see an all out strike.I think it would be no harm to remind people what it is we do.The PS can bring this country to a halt very easily.Private sector workers cannot work if the schools are closed and they have to look after their own kids.The last time their was a fair amount of goodwill (maintaining vital services) so as not to lose public sympathy.I think PS workers now realize that the public have a combination of jealousy/resentment towards our pay and conditions so we have nothing to lose by hitting them very hard.If you keep pushing, a day will come when nobody answers the 999 call,nobody will treat people in hospital,there will be no social welfare waiting in the post office on pay day etc.That day is a lot nearer than you think.If you want to save money,reduce the dole.

Silentcorner

"I think PS workers now realize that the public have a combination of jealousy/resentment towards our pay and conditions so we have nothing to lose by hitting them very hard" Quote by repsol

I have to say you are completely incorrect, you'll find that most people working in the Private sector, especially those in the SME sector work in a "cut your cloth according to your measure" basis, if not you will go out of business, and lose your jobs, many have been caught without wages or redundancy...and after the shock of losing their jobs they then face a hostile jobs market...in other words serious consequences...it is from these circumstances that most opinions are forged...

So it is not "jealousy or resentment" ( nobody was jealous or resentful when this mystifying benchmarking was implemented), most PS bodies who went on strike did receive good support for the public, the problem most people have is the exact same concerns the Troika have (as was outlined last week), does that make the Troika "jealous and resentful"...

If you think you have nothing to lose by hitting the private sector hard you are sadly mistaken...you will be strengthening the hand of your opposition in negotiations, imagine how damaged your campaign would be if it had no support from the taxpayer/voter/ the troika (who are in part picking up the bill)

Paulzx

tenton wrote: »

. You can buy a 2 - bedroom apartment in many parts of Ireland for less than a years public service salary now. .

You could also buy it with the same private sector salary. Is the money different? Whats your point?


Sounds very like what a former poster on here used to constantly parrot

ardmacha

The country of Ireland has the same population as greater manchester and yet has 0.3 million highly paid and pensioned public servants feeding off it.

Is this an inappropriate number? Does the ROI have more policemen or teachers per capita than Manchester?

Property tax is much higher in the UK...

Which makes we wonder if we have such bad public finances why property tax is not also much higher here?