Association for the Scientific Study of Anomalous Phenomena

maccored

If you are into proper scientific study as far as paranormal research goes, then you really should check out http://www.assap.ac.uk . It's better if you're a fully paid up member (about 30 euro a year) as they send you literally a book full of articles and peer reviewed study plus a quaterly magazine. The site itself has a sizeable members area with a lot of research and info.

Its very good, I have to say. It'd be a great place for those of the more cynical bend around here, who dont seem to actually understand what paranormal research entails.

Now - the ASSAP do have their money spinners, like paranormal research courses etc etc. Those things dont worry me as I'll never use them, but the content is good.

maccored

I like this kind of thinking

It is clear that science has 'raised the bar' for the standard of evidence required to demonstrate the paranormal. Paranormal research needs to rise to that challenge and abandon the old fashioned methods that have failed us for decades.

The way to demonstrate the paranormal remains the same as it always has - you first need to eliminate all natural causes. It is clear that assumption-led techniques fail to do that. Many paranormal investigations fall short because the researchers present are not aware of all the possible mundane causes for any particular incident. Thus, many incidents labeled as 'paranormal' are later challenged because possible prosaic explanations were not explored at the time of the investigation. By that time it is usually too late to go back and do more tests.

Even with existing methods, we have found that most paranormal reports are either definitely, or probably, explainable by natural causes. If you add in those that cannot be demonstrated to be paranormal because not all natural causes were explored, few if any old cases remain unambiguously paranormal.

The way forward is obvious - we need to know much more about possible 'mundane explanations' that cause so many apparently paranormal reports.

http://www.assap.ac.uk/newsite/articles/Modern%20paranormal%20research.html

All the good stuff is in the members area though.

GodlessM

Funnily enough I just heard of this group recently while reading up on some stuff. Will definitely give it a look.

Dave!

maccored, weren't you saying before that paranormal abilities and phenomena cannot be tested scientifically? Is this link just for the benefit of people who don't agree with that, or have you changed your position?

maccored

I haven't changed my point of view - which has been and still is that a) there is no current 'scientific' way to research the paranormal (ie paranormal research isn't scientific ) and also b) if no-one bothers trying to find one then there never will

Assap are one of those groups that are looking. I'm all for that. I don't believe they state they have it all worked out, but they are trying.

Dave! wrote: »

maccored, weren't you saying before that paranormal abilities and phenomena cannot be tested scientifically? Is this link just for the benefit of people who don't agree with that, or have you changed your position?

maccored

Do you disagree with that Dave? Do you believe paranormal research *is* scientific at present?

Dave!

It depends on the claim being made, but certainly some paranormal abilities and phenomena can be tested. The example I gave before was Daryl Bem's studies on ESP, which showed a statistically significant effect, was peer reviewed and made it into a pretty mainstream scientific journal. The methods used were considered quite good from most of the scientists and skeptics that I've heard/read responding to the experiments.

Of course, you attempted to distance yourself from this one, presumably because replication attempts aren't going very well! Which of course shows that there is no effect. Doesn't mean it was a bad experiment though - just that Bem let his biases affect the outcome of the experiments.

This is a good podcast which discusses it in detail. The podcast is just a psychology one, and the host isn't part of any skeptical circles that I'm aware of. He's a bit of a dork though.

maccored

theres been many tests tried in regards PK, ESP etc that I wouldnt deny. Successful tests though? Whats successful and how many have positively proved anything either way? I still think theres a bit of a ways to go before you can successfully test if ESP exists or not.

But "you attempted to distance yourself from this one" - really? Isnt my main gripe around here that 'skeptics' seem to focus all their attention on esp, mediums and psychics whilst ignoring the plethora of other apparent paranormal occurances? In fact I often wonder why they bother having interest in a subject they know so little about and have so little inclination to educate themselves on. Like - even I agree it's never a good idea to pay someone money to tell you things about 'the future' since you'll get ripped off. Tell me something new.

I dont really have any interest in apparent mediums, ESP, PK etc though its something I might look at in the future. But at present ... I couldnt care less. Thats not 'distancing' myself - thats purely having no interest in the first place.

you really should check out that site Dave! You never know, you might actually learn something.

Dave!

maccored wrote: »

theres been many tests tried in regards PK, ESP etc that I wouldnt deny. Successful tests though? Whats successful and how many have positively proved anything either way? I still think theres a bit of a ways to go before you can successfully test if ESP exists or not.

You really don't understand science it seems. There have been no "successful" ones because there is no effect! Either an experiment is well designed or it is not. The results can be discussed separately. The Bem study is well designed and is considered quite clever. Which is why when Bem's results showed a statistically significant effect (albeit a very small one), it wasn't dismissed; it was subjected to the same thing other scientific experiments are subjected to - replication attempts. So far there hasn't been any success.

So to summarise, a well designed scientific test of a paranormal phenomenon failed to show an effect.

You appear to be under the impression that, unless an experiment shows a positive effect, that it's a bad experiment. You are wrong.

maccored wrote: »

But "you attempted to distance yourself from this one" - really? Isnt my main gripe around here that 'skeptics' seem to focus all their attention on esp, mediums and psychics whilst ignoring the plethora of other apparent paranormal occurances? In fact I often wonder why they bother having interest in a subject they know so little about and have so little inclination to educate themselves on. Like - even I agree it's never a good idea to pay someone money to tell you things about 'the future' since you'll get ripped off. Tell me something new.

I dont really have any interest in apparent mediums, ESP, PK etc though its something I might look at in the future. But at present ... I couldnt care less. Thats not 'distancing' myself - thats purely having no interest in the first place.

You're doing it again. I don't care what you are personally interested in; there are lots of people (on this forum and around the world) who are interested in these phenomena, and who believe in them. So it's good that people like Daryl Bem have gone to the bother of trying to find out if there's anything to the claims.

As it turns out, there is no evidence to support them, and attempts to test them under controlled conditions have so far failed.

I'd be curious to know what specific paranormal/supernatural topics you are interested BTW, since in most of your posts you seem to be rolling your eyes at your fellow enthusiasts (there's a lot of interest in mediums and psychics on this forum).

maccored wrote: »

you really should check out that site Dave! You never know, you might actually learn something.

Perish the thought

maccored

Im sure Dave if you read this forum you'll find subjects Im interested in. To be honest, Im not really into whataboutery - but reading between the lines there, I love your understanding of science - considering you seem to think you know something is impossible without ever researching it. Im sure scientists all share your ideal. (note sarcasim)

Perish the thought

Yeah, exactly.

maccored

You know, you should post a few threads on the skeptics forum. Bit dead in there. Then again, theres only some many threads on mediums one can make, eh?

maccored

Dave! wrote: »

You appear to be under the impression that, unless an experiment shows a positive effect, that it's a bad experiment. You are wrong.

no Dave! - Im not under that impression. What a weak, weak attempt you made there at putting words in my mouth.

Im stating that regardless of all the tests - those that claim to be proof of and those that are the opposite - we still havent a foolproof, 100% unquestionable way of testing ESP yet. If we did, then it would all be moot.

Dave!

Dave! wrote: »

So to summarise, a well designed scientific test of a paranormal phenomenon failed to show an effect.

Based on your experience ? HAHA just kidding i know you dont tests, or anything else really. I tell you what would be paranormal , seeing a skeptic actually investigate something themselves and not repeat other peoples findings. I have yet to see any evidence that they actually leave their bedrooms. Just blurry pictures and that.

Do i have anything to add to this post you are thinking ?

Yes there is, i am shocked that a paranormal group is classing themselves as a charity when there are real charities out there that could do with that money. Not only that it looks like they have investigated Rods and Orbs :eek:

maccored

I know what you mean - still though, theres quite a bit of stuff going on in there. theres grants for research though Ive no idea what that entails. its way more interesting that assuming every abandoned or run down house is haunted.

Now - the ASSAP do have their money spinners, like paranormal research courses etc etc. Those things dont worry me as I'll never use them, but the content is good.