Tattoo course

Dr. Jonathan Crane

bubblebery wrote: »

We tried helping a customer of ours, someone we liked and trusted, and the only stipulation was that she did not open a studio near us, which she promised she would never do. When we told her we would help her she had tears in her eyes and was so happy. Some time down the line, just after we had given her a huge tattoo as a birthday gift she sent us a text to say she was not coming back as she realised that in time she would like to open a studio in the same area we operate.!

Jesus, if anyone has the right to turn down every person who comes through the door wanting to be a tattoo artist it's you. Did she ever open a studio?

bubblebery

Dr. Jonathan Crane wrote: »

Jesus, if anyone has the right to turn down every person who comes through the door wanting to be a tattoo artist it's you. Did she ever open a studio?

Not yet, and to be honest I just stay focused on offering the most enjoyable tattoo experience possible and really do not think that much about the whole situation.

We had a girl come into the studio a few weeks ago asking for a position. We were put off by the fact that she had tattooed her own hands, with what could only be described as a mess...

The fact that her mother had an inverted cross tattooed between her eyes was the deciding factor... that woman freaked me out :eek:

Steroo

My bro is going to email me some pics to put up over the weekend!

Steroo

StephenRooney wrote: »

My bro is going to email me some pics to put up over the weekend!

Few pics

SolvableKnave

That Prodigy one is brilliant, and the small Phil Lynott one is pretty cool too.

Esoteric_

If I'm totally honest, he'd need better art work than that. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but if you look at the likes of Danny from Tallaght Ink (I am NOT a fan of Tallaght Ink, for the record!), he has some fantastic, detailed, intricate art work.

Honestly, they don't look tattoo-worthy in my opinion. They look like someone with a decent hand with a biro doing some quick sketches. :-/

FoxyVixen

I'd be likely to agree with Esoteric.

They're good drawings, but that's where it stops. I wouldn't want them tattooed on me.

He'd need to clean up his line work a little bit more. Also, with the type of talented people already being refused apprenticeships, he'd need to ensure there's no negative space left on the sketchpad to be on their level. Every piece of the paper needs to be incorporated. Some study into shading too. The first picture isn't bad, but alot of growth is needed.

He should look into doing an art course with a nearby VEC if it's possible. That way he can learn about the differant types of media and how to work them. A friend of mine is doing one now at the moment and she swears by how much she's learned at it.

Hope I don't come across as negative, merely constructive criticism. I enjoy drawing in my spare time myself so I know how it feels if someone looks at you sketch and says "meh"

niallam

Ok pics for leaving cert art but that's about it for me. They're more like doodles on your science book than something I'd see as a tattoo.
I think he needs a lot more drawing practice.

Just on that point someone else made, I'm 34, I have a full time job. If I wanted to become a black belt in a martial art not only would I have to do it in my own time and with an expert but Id have to pay them to train me...
Any tattoo artist that would be willing to train someone for free would be a decent person, any person that would expect to get paid for it is crazy.
It's a very hard job to train for, you can't just start tattooing from your first day, hard to make a comparison with another job, heart surgery maybe?

Your brother would want to get himself tattood properly and quite a few times, see how other artists work, how they set up, the way they tackle different tattoos, ask questions, see if he can hang around when they're working.
Every tattoo shop has hang arounders lol

endacl

bubblebery wrote: »

The fact that her mother had an inverted cross tattooed between her eyes was the deciding factor... that woman freaked me out :eek:

Honestly, I'd be more put off by the fact that she brought the mammy at all. If it was a job interview in a bank and she brought the mammy along, she'd be laughed out of the building. If she's not self assured enough to go along and speak for herself I wouldn't let her clean toilets, let alone ink somebody for life...

Arawn

niallam wrote: »

Ok pics for leaving cert art but that's about it for me. They're more like doodles on your science book than something I'd see as a tattoo.
I think he needs a lot more drawing practice.

Just on that point someone else made, I'm 34, I have a full time job. If I wanted to become a black belt in a martial art not only would I have to do it in my own time and with an expert but Id have to pay them to train me...
Any tattoo artist that would be willing to train someone for free would be a decent person, any person that would expect to get paid for it is crazy.
It's a very hard job to train for, you can't just start tattooing from your first day, hard to make a comparison with another job, heart surgery maybe?

Your brother would want to get himself tattood properly and quite a few times, see how other artists work, how they set up, the way they tackle different tattoos, ask questions, see if he can hang around when they're working.
Every tattoo shop has hang arounders lol

Just on the black belt bit, as a student you are not expected to pitch in running the gym, as an apprentice you are expected to help run the studio.

niallam

Arawn wrote: »

Just on the black belt bit, as a student you are not expected to pitch in running the gym, as an apprentice you are expected to help run the studio.

A good student helps out. I was part of a martial arts club and we all helped out, any fight nights we would be there early and long afterwards cleaning up. We supported all events and quiz and fight nights etc. if there was painting to be done we'd be in on after hours.
If you treat it as only a 2 hour class that's your choice but you'll never feel part of it, same in the tattoo studio. An artist will never respect you unless your willing to do what has to be done, we all know respect is earned

What I'm saying is an apprentice is the same as a good student, they're not there to run the business but they are there to do more than learn

Arawn

niallam wrote: »

A good student helps out. I was part of a martial arts club and we all helped out, any fight nights we would be there early and long afterwards cleaning up. We supported all events and quiz and fight nights etc. if there was painting to be done we'd be in on after hours.
If you treat it as only a 2 hour class that's your choice but you'll never feel part of it, same in the tattoo studio. An artist will never respect you unless your willing to do what has to be done, we all know respect is earned

What I'm saying is an apprentice is the same as a good student, they're not there to run the business but they are there to do more than learn

I know this but I bet you were't there 8 hours a day everyday as an apprentice to be. Helping out here and there is grand.

niallam

Arawn wrote: »

I know this but I bet you were't there 8 hours a day everyday as an apprentice to be. Helping out here and there is grand.

But if my goal was to change careers and be an instructor myself I would be there 8 hours a day if I didn't have a full time job.
Does the OP's brother have a full time job already?

Steroo

Thanks for the advice and constructive feedback!

FoxyVixen

Let us know how he gets on and if he's got more questions not to hesitate to ask here.

Other than that, I forgot to add that it'd be a good idea for him to develope a portfolio using differant techniques (of either media or style of drawing) around a similiar theme. That'd show a nice flow throughout his portfolio then. If you search boards for NCAD applications, there's some great advice given for those going onto fine art degrees. He could bounce off that and see where it lands him? I've taken some inspiration from that.

Also check out deviantart and imaginefx websites. Realistically the top artists there wouldn't be such a stones throw away from the type of apprentices approaching studios here I've spent hours on those

Lastly, just because one studio may turn him down, doesn't mean they all will. Art is in the eye of the beholder, so someone may like his style - once he works on it a little more

Try and try again...........it is NOT an easy buisness to get into.

bodice ripper

Arawn wrote: »

Just on the black belt bit, as a student you are not expected to pitch in running the gym, as an apprentice you are expected to help run the studio.

you're not getting a belt, you are getting a trade you can support yourself with. Also, d'you think you might learn something relevant running the studio?

Arawn

bodice ripper wrote: »

you're not getting a belt, you are getting a trade you can support yourself with. Also, d'you think you might learn something relevant running the studio?

Any other trade you get paid to be there while learning.What makes tattooing immune to paying apprentices?

Star Lord

Arawn wrote: »

Any other trade you get paid to be there while learning.What makes tattooing immune to paying apprentices?

There are lots of jobs/companies where people have to do unpaid internships just to get their foot in the door.

niallam

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

There are lots of jobs/companies where people have to do unpaid internships just to get their foot in the door.

Exactly, same as if any of us here wanted to start studying something new, chances are we'll have to pay a hefty amount if money to attend evening classes in Dublin business school or somewhere similar.
tattooing is a very unique job, you could get 600 points in your LC and still not have what it takes. Unfortunate it's going to cost the person themselves if they really want to learn.

FoxyVixen

But in college a good portion of people can avail of a grant as well as working part time - some skipping the odd lecture to get a few paid hours of work catching up on the course later.

There's more available to college/night course than say to an unpaid internship asking approx 40hrs a week. Say if you can't get a paid internship for a college course here, you can hop on the boat and get it across the water or in Oz.

I've always thought that any internship irregardless of level/trade/buisness SHOULD get at least minimum wage. I know nothing comes free in life, but in this day and age very few can get by without some money coming in.

Yes it's a trade you're working towards and so I can understand how some say it should be unpaid. But doesn't this then allow said trainee to pull the dole drawing resources from a seriously inadequate government. That dole money could go towards a more beneficial target such as care assistants.

Marty McFly

On the finance side it they could always do as Danny done while in Skin City he sold a few paintings through the Skin City Facebook page to help give him cash, which im sure all apprentice tattoo artists could do to help keep themselves with some sort of cash.

Although in saying that I do think they should be paid some sort of wage, I done an apprenticeship in a trade not tattoo but I can honestly say if I had not earned a wage there no way I could have afforded to do it and live.


I understand what people are saying your learning from someone who is giving you there time and expertise to help you along with your career but while an apprentice you do have other duties aswell as learning, plus most people when then they take on apprentices see them as a dogs body and long term investment you get cheap work for a few years something you would normally have to pay someone a higher wage to do along with in the hope that once there qualified they will have enough quality so you can be proud of how they turned out along with bringing in more customers you your business and making you more money, I know the tattoo industry is quite unique but at the same time it is relatable.

Arawn

Marty McFly wrote: »

On the finance side it they could always do as Danny done while in Skin City he sold a few paintings through the Skin City Facebook page to help give him cash, which im sure all apprentice tattoo artists could do to help keep themselves with some sort of cash.

Although in saying that I do think they should be paid some sort of wage, I done an apprenticeship in a trade not tattoo but I can honestly say if I had not earned a wage there no way I could have afforded to do it and live.


I understand what people are saying your learning from someone who is giving you there time and expertise to help you along with your career but while an apprentice you do have other duties aswell as learning, plus most people when then they take on apprentices see them as a dogs body and long term investment you get cheap work for a few years something you would normally have to pay someone a higher wage to do along with in the hope that once there qualified they will have enough quality so you can be proud of how they turned out along with bringing in more customers you your business and making you more money, I know the tattoo industry is quite unique but at the same time it is relatable.

Aye when I was doing my apprenticeship at the start 220 a week, after bills and food I was losing 20 a week and had a night job to survive

bodice ripper

I wasn't living at home for most of sixth year due to family problems. I worked and went to school and got 515 points.

I worked during college, and was not eligible for the grant because despite the fact that I was estranged from my parents, they earned too much. I finished my course, and worked near to full time the entire time.

For my apprenticeship, which started a few weeks before I graduated college, I worked a 40 hour week and a 37 hour week in the same week.

It is entirely doable.


In my experience, a tattoo parlor can not afford to pay an apprentice anything like the "levels" that you get in a trade. If you think that there is anything like the money available in a recognised trade in tattooing, I suggest you pick a different career. Even when you finish and start tattooing professionally, initially it is great money for a 18-23 year old, but as you get older your peers move up in their jobs and or avail of promotions, and when you are your 30's, you find yourself making the same money you did a decade ago.

No promotions, no pension, no paid sick days, no paid holidays, no maternity leave, no over time, no christmas bonus, no health insurance, NO JOB SECURITY EVER. EVER. you will never have a contract, you could be fired on the whim of a shop owner. Good luck claiming the dole if you are out of work, cause you were self employed, and you will be jumping through MAD hoops to get it. Once you have been tattooing any length of time, kiss many other jobs goodbye. If you think a multi-year gap in your employment history is bad, imagine it is filled with tattooing.

I was training to be an English and Classical Studies teacher. it will never happen now. I might get away with being a lecturer, because you seemingly are entitled to be a bit eccentric.

It is NOT a dream job. Unless you love to draw and realise that all the "drawing" jobs are long gone now, and moved to computer aided design (*spit*). Tattoo artists burn out early, frequently in their late 30s, and it is unlikely to be a job you can manage up til 65.

i cannot stress this enough, IT IS A SERVICE INDUSTRY. You best like people, because the main thrust of your job is negotiating designs and money with people who are frightened and in pain.

When people have a mate who is "mad for de tattooin..." they never expound on his/her interpersonal skills nor their experience in retail....

Arawn

bodice ripper wrote: »

I wasn't living at home for most of sixth year due to family problems. I worked and went to school and got 515 points.

I worked during college, and was not eligible for the grant because despite the fact that I was estranged from my parents, they earned too much. I finished my course, and worked near to full time the entire time.

For my apprenticeship, which started a few weeks before I graduated college, I worked a 40 hour week and a 37 hour week in the same week.

It is entirely doable.


In my experience, a tattoo parlor can not afford to pay an apprentice anything like the "levels" that you get in a trade. If you think that there is anything like the money available in a recognised trade in tattooing, I suggest you pick a different career. Even when you finish and start tattooing professionally, initially it is great money for a 18-23 year old, but as you get older your peers move up in their jobs and or avail of promotions, and when you are your 30's, you find yourself making the same money you did a decade ago.

No promotions, no pension, no paid sick days, no paid holidays, no maternity leave, no over time, no christmas bonus, no health insurance, NO JOB SECURITY EVER. EVER. you will never have a contract, you could be fired on the whim of a shop owner. Good luck claiming the dole if you are out of work, cause you were self employed, and you will be jumping through MAD hoops to get it. Once you have been tattooing any length of time, kiss many other jobs goodbye. If you think a multi-year gap in your employment history is bad, imagine it is filled with tattooing.

I was training to be an English and Classical Studies teacher. it will never happen now. I might get away with being a lecturer, because you seemingly are entitled to be a bit eccentric.

It is NOT a dream job. Unless you love to draw and realise that all the "drawing" jobs are long gone now, and moved to computer aided design (*spit*). Tattoo artists burn out early, frequently in their late 30s, and it is unlikely to be a job you can manage up til 65.

i cannot stress this enough, IT IS A SERVICE INDUSTRY. You best like people, because the main thrust of your job is negotiating designs and money with people who are frightened and in pain.

When people have a mate who is "mad for de tattooin..." they never expound on his/her interpersonal skills nor their experience in retail....

As I mentioned earlier if they got it on jobsbridge they would only have to pay 50e a week

bodice ripper

Arawn wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier if they got it on jobsbridge they would only have to pay 50e a week

I think it is more standard that you don't say jack **** to to social welfare and claim the dole, to be honest.


an artist will be an artist and continue to hone their abilities regardless of an apprenticeship. draw/paint/print more for yourself, and get your ducks in a row for applying for an apprenticeship. Anyone can work a part-time job while apprenticing and feed themselves, if they want to be a tattooer bad enough.

bodice ripper

Arawn wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier if they got it on jobsbridge they would only have to pay 50e a week

Most tattoo parlors would be less than pleased about getting involved with state agencies for a variety of reasons. Why should "the industry" change completely to suit would-be tattooers who feel they should get paid while they learn a marketable craft?

Arawn

bodice ripper wrote: »

I think it is more standard that you don't say jack **** to to social welfare and claim the dole, to be honest.


an artist will be an artist and continue to hone their abilities regardless of an apprenticeship. draw/paint/print more for yourself, and get your ducks in a row for applying for an apprenticeship. Anyone can work a part-time job while apprenticing and feed themselves, if they want to be a tattooer bad enough.

Ah here's the crux, throughout my arguement I was going on the basis of not claiming!


Edit: I'm also including piercing apprenticeships in this

bodice ripper

Arawn wrote: »

Ah here's the crux, throughout my arguement I was going on the basis of not claiming!


Edit: I'm also including piercing apprenticeships in this

I never claimed the dole. Am I hard as nails or otherwise superhuman?

If you want financial security before or after learning your craft, tattooing is not the job for you.

niallam

bodice ripper wrote: »

No promotions, no pension, no paid sick days, no paid holidays, no maternity leave, no over time, no christmas bonus, no health insurance, NO JOB SECURITY EVER. EVER. you will never have a contract, you could be fired on the whim of a shop owner. Good luck claiming the dole if you are out of work, cause you were self employed, and you will be jumping through MAD hoops to get it. Once you have been tattooing any length of time, kiss many other jobs goodbye.

Similar for anyone that's self employed so?
If your working for a tattoo parlour than once your paying tax your entitled to maternity leave, same as any job.
You'd be surprised how many jobs have no pension, no sick pay, no Christmas bonus and no health insurance included, mine for one.

bodice ripper

niallam wrote: »

Similar for anyone that's self employed so?
If your working for a tattoo parlour than once your paying tax your entitled to maternity leave, same as any job.
You'd be surprised how many jobs have no pension, no sick pay, no Christmas bonus and no health insurance included, mine for one.

oh no, there's lots of jobs like that. I was just pointing out that if one feels hard done by in not getting paid in their apprenticeship, they probably won't like the rest of the conditions.


and, not to say something massively controversial here, but I have never understood why it is any business's concern that you are are or would like to be pregnant.