unfair verbal warning?

tatli_lokma

adelec wrote: »

and i am not saying i want to see a rule that so precise but if i have broken a health and safety rule then why was it allowed on oct31 and now im been punished for something similar when it suits them??

because on Oct 31 you were not there in the capacity as an employee. On that occasion you were not minding your child on their time, it was on your own time. On this occasion you were being paid to operate the till and instead were tending to your son, who was in an area he shouldn't have been. And probably making a racket with it (I'm guessing from you saying that your mother just couldn't get him to move away so I infer from that, that he was making a scene when you tried to send him away).

Honestly, stop trying to place the blame elsewhere. the responsibility is on you.

tatli_lokma

And clearly the day with facepainting was a different atmosphere of a day - i.e a family day, intended to encourage custom and was a 'special circumstance'. But this recent incident occurred on a normal working day, when one would not expect allowances to be made.

adelec

Procrastastudy wrote: »

You can rarely challenge a decision but the procedure needs to be fair. Are you absolutely sure you manager said you will be getting a warning. He is required to inform you that you may get a warning but statements like you will get a warning would be evidence of bias/unfair procedures.

All that said you pretty much deserve a slap across the wrists and that's all a verbal warning is. Don't do X again. Realistically it looks like some boundary lessons are needed on all sides.

I have definitely learned my lesson from this and my child will no longer be allowed in the shop while im working! I was just hoping to explain to manager that i really am sorry and it wont be happening again and we ould move on from this.he is strict but i think this abit too far....

dickwod1

Sadderday wrote: »

a verbal warning is just a verbal warning. If your a good employee and this is an isolated i wouldnt worry about it. Just make sure you dont end up getting a written warning.

I wouldn't be stressing about it honestly.

Exactly what I was about to say,

Take it on the chin and move on - if your a good/decent worker it wont affect you at all in your future work in the company.

tatli_lokma

you have more chance of moving on if you don't make a bigger deal of it than you need to. Go in asking to be shown the exact regulation in H&S which prohibits it is making a bigger deal. You don't need to be shown the H&S regs to know that common sense says it's not acceptable.

adelec

Little Ted wrote: »

you have more chance of moving on if you don't make a bigger deal of it than you need to. Go in asking to be shown the exact regulation in H&S which prohibits it is making a bigger deal. You don't need to be shown the H&S regs to know that common sense says it's not acceptable.

Look if you saw my workplace on a weekly basis you would see why im getting worked up over it.since he began in our store he has tried to nit pick everything i do.i dont know why he just does.but i have always kept smiling because thats what i do best.there really is only so much a person can take and if hes going to this extreme over this incident then what next???

Pat Mustard

adelec wrote: »

I have sought advice from my union and will be bringing a Rep in with me to the meeting.i have studied my handbook and contract and havent come across anything that states i have broken a rule by allowing my child on the chair.nor in my nine years of service have i ever been made aware of such a rule.if i have overlooked it and my manager does indeed present it in writing i will have to point out to him that this rule wasnt applied on Oct31 last year, when my son sat on a chair for half an hour while he waited for me as i had taken 2hours out of my day to paint childrens faces in the store! I know its the managers place to point out to me that my son cant be bothering me in work and i have apologised for it.i think though he could have pulled me aside and had a word.we could have avoided all this.and thank you for the advice.greatly appreciated

You're welcome, but I hope I haven't put you on the wrong track.

Being realistic, there isn't going to be any rule which is specific to standing on chairs. I am only guessing here, but maybe there is a general rule which requires employees to alert management if a health and safety issue arises. If so, such a general rule might take in a situation with a child standing on a chair.

In common sense terms, the problem is that your child was standing on a chair. In my personal opinion, common sense would also dictate that the manager could have opted to take you aside (informally) and ask that the situation be rectified and not repeated.

Instead, your manager has decided to bring formal disciplinary action against you. Therefore, you have to treat this seriously. It is something to be concerned about.

I think that you need to be ready to defend your job, if necessary. That said, you have to pick your battles. Fight the battles that you can win. You may have to concede some battles that you will lose.

We are just people on the internet. We haven't read your paperwork. We can't tell you for sure that you haven't done anything which is against disciplinary policy. You may very well have done so. You need proper advice from either a very experienced union rep/shop steward or else (preferably) a good solicitor. If they read your paperwork and take all of your details, they might advise you whether to assert your rights now, or whether to go in with your hands up.

No matter where you get your advice, I suggest that you should go to the meeting in the company of the shop steward/union rep. Depending on all circumstances, it may be overly confrontational to bring your solicitor with you at this stage of the disciplinary process - just my opinion.

The reason that I posted was to tell you that you need to look at the options carefully. I think you need proper advice.

adelec

The Mustard wrote: »

You're welcome, but I hope I haven't put you on the wrong track.

Being realistic, there isn't going to be any rule which is specific to standing on chairs. I am only guessing here, but maybe there is a general rule which requires employees to alert management if a health and safety issue arises. If so, such a general rule might take in a situation with a child standing on a chair.

In common sense terms, the problem is that your child was standing on a chair. In my personal opinion, common sense would also dictate that the manager could have opted to take you aside (informally) and ask that the situation be rectified and not repeated.

Instead, your manager has decided to bring formal disciplinary action against you. Therefore, you have to treat this seriously. It is something to be concerned about.

I think that you need to be ready to defend your job, if necessary. That said, you have to pick your battles. Fight the battles that you can win. You may have to concede some battles that you will lose.

We are just people on the internet. We haven't read your paperwork. We can't tell you for sure that you haven't done anything which is against disciplinary policy. You may very well have done so. You need proper advice from either a very experienced union rep/shop steward or else (preferably) a good solicitor. If they read your paperwork and take all of your details, they might advise you whether to assert your rights now, or whether to go in with your hands up.

No matter where you get your advice, I suggest that you should go to the meeting in the company of the shop steward/union rep. Depending on all circumstances, it may be overly confrontational to bring your solicitor with you at this stage of the disciplinary process - just my opinion.

The reason that I posted was to tell you that you need to look at the options carefully. I think you need proper advice.

Oh believe me iv learned my lesson!! And i do agree that my manager had a right to confront me about it, and i will tell him so later at the meeting.i just think all this could have been avoided i.e getting the union involved.as you prob saw already on other posts my son sat on a company chair for half an hour waiting for me when i took time out of my day to go paint faces in the store.if something had happened him then the company were liable that day aswel but they didnt seem too bothered so why now?? I will be meeting with my union Rep before the meeting so i will just have to go with the flow

Boombastic

adelec wrote: »

Oh believe me iv learned my lesson!! And i do agree that my manager had a right to confront me about it, and i will tell him so later at the meeting.i just think all this could have been avoided i.e getting the union involved.as you prob saw already on other posts my son sat on a company chair for half an hour waiting for me when i took time out of my day to go paint faces in the store.if something had happened him then the company were liable that day aswel but they didnt seem too bothered so why now?? I will be meeting with my union Rep before the meeting so i will just have to go with the flow

It was your choice to bring your son with you that day, I'm not sure what that has got to do with the situation you are receiving this warning for?


I don't think this warning you are receiving is unfair

Pat Mustard

adelec wrote: »

Oh believe me iv learned my lesson!! And i do agree that my manager had a right to confront me about it, and i will tell him so later at the meeting.i just think all this could have been avoided i.e getting the union involved.as you prob saw already on other posts my son sat on a company chair for half an hour waiting for me when i took time out of my day to go paint faces in the store.if something had happened him then the company were liable that day aswel but they didnt seem too bothered so why now?? I will be meeting with my union Rep before the meeting so i will just have to go with the flow

Good luck with it.

MadsL

Just on a parenting note, as a parent - if you are letting a 3 year decide where and when he sits, you are letting him decide your life for you. You (and your mother when she is minding him) decide that. You should have lifted him physically out of that chair and handed him to you mother. He is a three year old not an elephant.

If you can't discipline him now - god help you when he is older.

adelec

Boombastic wrote: »

It was your choice to bring your son with you that day, I'm not sure what that has got to do with the situation you are receiving this warning for?


I don't think this warning you are receiving is unfair

Its just regarding the H&S issue.thats why i mentioned its not the first time hes been on a company chair

Boombastic

adelec wrote: »

Its just regarding the H&S issue.thats why i mentioned its not the first time hes been on a company chair

What if money was missing and they blamed your child or you being distracted..

It's not the first time? Proper order for your manager to call you up on it then.


MadsL - I thought the same when I read it

adelec

MadsL wrote: »

Just on a parenting note, as a parent - if you are letting a 3 year decide where and when he sits, you are letting him decide your life for you. You (and your mother when she is minding him) decide that. You should have lifted him physically out of that chair and handed him to you mother. He is a three year old not an elephant.

If you can't discipline him now - god help you when he is older.

I COMPLETELY agree with you seriously.its my own fault the way he decides what he will and wont do.i have him spoiled and he knows he can run circles around me...and everyone else in my family! Changes will definitely be made after this because i dont think i could handle this again!!

adelec

Boombastic wrote: »

What if money was missing and they blamed your child or you being distracted..

It's not the first time? Proper order for your manager to call you up on it then.


MadsL - I thought the same when I read it

The first time my manager asked me to stay on an extra half hour but i didnt have a babysitter so he told me let him sit next to me

rgmmg

Am I alone in thinking her manager was a bit OTT? A verbal "warning" for a first offence, for which the OP is very sorry? Ridiculous.

tatli_lokma

adelec, I feel I should apologise if you got the impression that I think all the blame lies on you. In fact, I do think that the manager is being a bit to uptight about the formality of the process. For a staff member with 9 years service it could have been handled better. I can see from your replies that you value your job and that you are finding it upsetting to be reprimanded so formally. This speaks highly of your character. The fact you care is a good thing.

It also seems that the atmosphere in the workplace has changed since his arrival. Now this could be due to several factors. Not being party to the situation, I don't know what those reasons are. He might be justified in his approach - maybe the store was underperforming and since arriving he sees staff behaviour which he feels is not satisfactory, or that staff have a laissez faire attitude. Perhaps he is young and hungry and wants to make his mark. Maybe he is asserting his authority and you are this weeks target. Maybe he is just plain an simple a dick who bullies people. But regardless of why, he is your manager and no matter how you wish you had your old one back, he is what you are stuck with for now. After 9 years with the same management attitude it surely comes as a shock and that is understandable. But the sad fact is you are not always going to like or get on with your boss. But you can't let that stop you from earning a living. You need to pick your battles and play them at their own game.

That is what I was saying by advising you not to add fuel to the fire. You have every right to express your disappointment that the matter could not have been handled informally, and I think you should do that. I just really think you should avoid pointing fingers or make comparisions between the time you were there in a personal capacity (halloween) and last week. It just makes you look like you are desperate to avoid blame. This might not be the case, but appearance is everything.

I think you are probably winding yourself up about this and the more you think about it and analyze it the more indignant you feel. All totally normal reactions. But again, my honest advice is to take on board what The Mustard says about being prepared to defend your job, and at the same time recognise that sometimes the best way to defend your job is to pick your battles.

I think your acknowleding that you did mess up in allowing what happened shows maturity and fairness on your part. Be the bigger person to an extent and don't get dragged into a situation with your manager which you don't want. If he is planning on making you his new target, make it hard for him - if you engage in tit for tat then you will only give him the opportunity he craves. Your union rep will be with you. This means that the manager will be forced to play by the rules. It might actually be to your benefit that he is being so formal, as it means it is on record - no case of your word against his. At this meeting he can ONLY discipline you for the matter in hand - he can't drag up other things. And this is why I advise keep it calm, succinct, to the point. Don't offer explainations or excuses unless you are asked for them. Only answer what you are directly asked. That way, it will be much harder for him to make a bigger matter of it. If he tries to, then it will be on the record that you accepted your reprimand and had moved on. It puts the burden of proof back on him.

Play clever and smart. Don't let your emotions walk you into a trap.

Good luck and I honestly do hope it goes ok. My personal gut feeling is that it is all something of nothing. An opportunity for a relatively new manager to flex his muscles and send the message that his is not afraid to discipline.

ebbsy

Little Ted wrote: »

you have more chance of moving on if you don't make a bigger deal of it than you need to. Go in asking to be shown the exact regulation in H&S which prohibits it is making a bigger deal. You don't need to be shown the H&S regs to know that common sense says it's not acceptable.

Makes a lot of sense that.

However if the manager starts getting heavy I would start looking through the golden pages.

Dyr

Check your staff handbook, code of conduct, contract or whatever literature lays out the company's disciplinary procedure before you walk into any formal hearing. Don't listen to people who tell you that a verbal warning is not a big deal. It can be.

Request that you be accompanied by a colleague. I'm assuming you have no union representation.

Your manager would appear to have already decided beforehand the outcome of the procedure which of itself may be a breach of their procedure.

adelec

ebbsy wrote: »

Makes a lot of sense that.

However if the manager starts getting heavy I would start looking through the golden pages.

Believe me i have thought about it.i could leave d job itself because its not worth the constant nit picking but after working with the same people for nine years they are now like a family to me! Cheesy i know but its true!

tatli_lokma

Bambi wrote: »

I'm assuming you have no union representation.

OP has mentioned several times that they have been in touch with their union. The manager even advised them to contact their union.

KT10

I reckon the best thing you can do is go into this meeting and not allow yourself to get emotional or defensive. I realise this has caused you a lot of stress but to be honest, the best thing to do is accept it happened, take the rap on the knuckles (a verbal warning is usually not that important) and carry on with your job.

If the meeting is not extremely formal, it'll simply be a case of "OK Edel, you know why you're here, don't do it again, next time its a written warning.". If you can act like you're not fazed or stressed and simply acknowledge your mistake with a simple "Yes and again I apologise, I've taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again." one of 2 things will happen, both to your advantage.

1. The Manager appriciates your professionalism in the matter and you both go back to work knowing the matter has been dealt with and move on.
2. If the Manager is indeed an out and out bully, you've not risen to his bait and maybe he realises you're not the easy target he had you pegged for.

I spent a few years in Retail Management, I've sat both sides of the table and its not a nice place to be, I didn't enjoy giving out to people (but I did it because it was part of my job and I was responsible at the end of the day) and I didn't enjoy being given out to when the roles were reversed. The point has already been raised but this Manager could be just trying to put his stamp on the place and differenciate himself from the last Manager or he might have been brought in because the shop is under-performing and he has a reputation for turning things around?

From the limited glimpse we see of your workplace through your posts, he just sounds like he's following the rules for situations such as this, I know you said one person has left because of him but you didn't say that he was doing anything particularily vindictive, or if it just a clash of personalities (you'd be amazed how many times I had staff come to me and say "I can't work with person X any more!" but the reasons they gave didn't warrant seperation)

Chin up OP, I reckon most of us have gotten in trouble for something at some stage, try to move past this and it won't have such an effect on your well being.

davo10

Seems OP fault in this lies solely with you as your child made a seen in your place of work, it's at best unprofessional and at worst unsafe. I've read through the thread at it strikes me that you should be very careful about picking an argument here, no one seems to have mentioned a very important advantage the manager will have in this case to back up his decision to issue a warning, all supermarkets have CCTV's on their tills. He will have a recording of you, your mother and your child, the conduct, customers in the store, time frame etc. if you argue the point or worse claim unfair treatment, all he has to do is produce the recording of the incident. It would probably be a "slam dunk".

I am pie

adelec wrote: »

That was my first instinct...take it on the chin and move on.even though i was not happy with the situation that seemed the best idea.i then had to contact my union which have advised me differently.i think the best thing to do is just wait and see what direction the meeting is taking.maybe it wont be as bad as im expecting i just wish it was over and done with

You are making a mistake here. You are entering into 'conflict'. Step back, think what you can 'win' here in real terms. I would venture nothing.

Pride is driving you toward conflict without any potential gain and serious potential loss.

Don't be foolish with your livelihood.

Dyr

Little Ted wrote: »

OP has mentioned several times that they have been in touch with their union. The manager even advised them to contact their union.

The reason I'm assuming that he has not got union representation is that he's looking for advice off the internet. A decent rep would have told him straight away that even a verbal warning is not something to be accepted lightly if it can be avoided. Despite what posters here think.

davo10

Bambi wrote: »

The reason I'm assuming that he has not got union representation is that he's looking for advice off the internet. A decent rep would have told him straight away that even a verbal warning is not something to be accepted lightly if it can be avoided. Despite what posters here think.

Except when you know when you are "in the wrong". No point in arguing black is white just because you don't want to accept its black. The OP admits she has made a significant error if judgement but is refusing to accept the consequences of her actions just because she does not want to. I think it is also wrong to accuse her manager of being a bully just because he is doing his job, this thread would seem to show that OP does not recognise that certain conduct warrants action by management. The other employee that left may (or may not) have deserved to be reprimanded and she would do well not to bring this into the conversation to back up her opinion of the manager.

Dyr

davo10 wrote: »

Except when you know when you are "in the wrong". No point in arguing black is white just because you don't want to accept its black. The OP admits she has made a significant error if judgement but is refusing to accept the consequences of her actions just because she does not want to. I think it is also wrong to accuse her manager of being a bully just because he is doing his job, this thread would seem to show that OP does not recognise that certain conduct warrants action by management. The other employee that left may (or may not) have deserved to be reprimanded and she would do well not to bring this into the conversation to back up her opinion of the manager.

Here's the thing, the OP should be taking advice from people who understand how their companies disciplinary procedure works and not from randomers on the internet who have nary a clue. Just for giggles though, what actions is she supposed to be accepting the consequences for?

Procrastastudy

Bambi wrote: »

Here's the thing, the OP should be taking advice from people who understand how their companies disciplinary procedure works and not from randomers on the internet who have nary a clue. Just for giggles though, what actions is she supposed to be accepting the consequences for?

With due respect Bambi you came into this thread half cocked. The OP has been given some decent advice. Take a union rep to the meeting (always wise) and seek legal advice if he feels he has been wronged. I personally have pointed out that there may be a breach of fair procedures here - that's about all the grounds the OP has for compliant as there has been no hearing yet.

Assuming that the OP is given a verbal warning in the disciplinary hearing (the first meeting should be an investigation ideally but in such a clear cut case it's not 100% necessary) then as has been pointed out my many there isn't much the OP can do about it. He was in the wrong and while it may very well be heavy handed it's not unreasonable, given the legal definition.

Frankly creating merry hell over this might well backfire. At the moment it looks like the OP has a bit of a OTT manager. If the OP starts trying to bring a solicitor along to a disciplinary meeting and banging his fists on the desk it might very well be seen as a reasonable manager trying to deal with an unreasonable employee.

All said and done a verbal warning isn't the end of the world; it might be a precursor to something more sinister, and need to be handled carefully; throwing the toys out of the pram isn't being careful.

Dyr

Procrastastudy wrote: »

With due respect Bambi you came into this thread half cocked. The OP has been given some decent advice. Take a union rep to the meeting (always wise) and seek legal advice if he feels he has been wronged. I personally have pointed out that there may be a breach of fair procedures here - that's about all the grounds the OP has for compliant as there has been no hearing yet.

Assuming that the OP is given a verbal warning in the disciplinary hearing (the first meeting should be an investigation ideally but in such a clear cut case it's not 100% necessary) then as has been pointed out my many there isn't much the OP can do about it. He was in the wrong and while it may very well be heavy handed it's not unreasonable, given the legal definition.

Frankly creating merry hell over this might well backfire. At the moment it looks like the OP has a bit of a OTT manager. If the OP starts trying to bring a solicitor along to a disciplinary meeting and banging his fists on the desk it might very well be seen as a reasonable manager trying to deal with an unreasonable employee.

All said and done a verbal warning isn't the end of the world; it might be a precursor to something more sinister, and need to be handled carefully; throwing the toys out of the pram isn't being careful.

The OP has been given some horrible advice because its all based on assumption. They need to listen to people who understand their company and its disciplinary procedure. For example had this incident occurred in my workplace I can think of at least two sections of our disciplinary procedure it could be dismissed under before it ever got to a meeting. You won't find that on a discussion forum.

I see people bringing up stuff like security footage and assuming it would be permissible in a disciplinary procedure. It's just bad advice. Take advice from your union reps, if needs be have them seek advice from their full time officers (if available). Don't just have a rep tag along to the meeting.

Procrastastudy

CCTV footage could arguably be admissible on the grounds this was a breach of security / health and safety procedures. CCTV is not allowed to be used for performance management.

But yes we are all making assumptions. Best to run it by the reps as you have said - they will normally see you right.