Councillor says Travellers should be an 'isolated community'

tayto lover

Senna wrote: »

I work in a hotel and I have never had a Traveller leave in a CV or call in to enquire about a job. There's more than one reason why its 85%.

Has your hotel ever refused a traveller wedding as a matter of interest?

wexie

MadsL wrote: »

So Military and Diplomatic families are harming their children by moving around so much.

Probably, if it weren't for the fact that military and diplomatic families tend to organise high quality education for their kids by nature of being educated themselves, or having it available through employment.

I see the point you're trying to make but your arguments are very far fetched and pretty weak.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

So Military and Diplomatic families are harming their children by moving around so much.

Sometimes. There are many instances of former military kid memoirs lamenting their lonely and unhappy childhoods.
However, usually the children of Irish military reside in a home in Ireland while their parent (usually the father) spends time abroad.
Diplo families function little differently to families where the main breadwinner is a senior management in a multinational. They may move about, but they get the best of international educations in private schools.
Comparing such families with travellers shunting from halting site to halting site with the children going significantly uneducated is frankly ridiculous, as I'm sure you're aware.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

Ah 'realists', I see. So tell me how you would realistically change how a group of people chose to identify and express their culture. Would it be by force?

Many of their 'traditions' are already criminal activity. Child neglect and theft looming large among them. Proper enforcement of existing laws is what is required.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Many of their 'traditions' are already criminal activity. Child neglect and theft looming large among them. Proper enforcement of existing laws is what is required.

You didn't answer my question.

Chuck Stone

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No. But I would say moving them around regularly so that children cannot be properly schooled comes close.

Because there's been a policy of assimilation into 'settled' ways instead of catering to Traveller's (former) itinerant lifestyle.

Has anyone ever considered why the govt spends so much money trying to anchor Travellers to one spot for life?

Cultural assimilation.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Sometimes. There are many instances of former military kid memoirs lamenting their lonely and unhappy childhoods.

So should the State intervene?

deandean

I was looking through this thread and the sponsored link 'Oil tank locks' came up.

All I am missing is a sponsored link for 'Eley Number 6'. As recommended for dealing with all forms of reptiles and amphibians.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

You didn't answer my question.

Yes I did. The law should be properly enforced upon the Travelling community.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

So should the State intervene?

No, because most of those memoirs relate to British or American army brats, who were raised in a culture of moving from base to base with parents. Irish military children don't tend to move around that way. Plus, there is no evidence of extensive criminality, lack of schooling, malnutrition, neglect or sexual abuse among those families as there is among the Travelling community.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, because most of those memoirs relate to British or American army brats, who were raised in a culture of moving from base to base with parents. Irish military children don't tend to move around that way. Plus, there is no evidence of extensive criminality, lack of schooling, malnutrition, neglect or sexual abuse among those families as there is among the Travelling community.

And your solution is what exactly?

You still haven't answered my question...do you intend to?

MadsL wrote: »

Ah 'realists', I see. So tell me how you would realistically change how a group of people chose to identify and express their culture. Would it be by force?

Hannibal

Having went to school with travellers, had them live within a mile of me and had some dealings in adult life with them I can understand why one would be wary of them but at the same time a large chunk of them are genuinely decent people. They live by a completely different set of rules to us and many parts of their lives are eye popping and alien to us.

I know none of the travellers I went to school with went to secondary school and it's something that's only happened recently that they've completed their schooling. I remember one in particular used to brag to us in I think 6th class about riding his cousin on a regular basis, so in truth they have the same morals regarding interfamily relations as most of Europes royal families. Education is the major issue with them, most have no interest in it as some that I know are practically millionaires from scrap dealing while claiming the labour in several different names. They don't really aspire to be anything in life other than just earning their crust by day to day dealings.

On the issue of segregating them to all live with each other, should we do the same with black Africans? as the way they live their lives is as alien to us as that of the travelling community. I know from my own place of work that they make zero effort to integrate themselves and won't talk English but at the same time report us Irish staff for racism if we talk to each other in Irish.

Or what about building walls around communities to keep them apart as shown in Belfast so unsuccessfully.

The bigger issue here is the challenge of modern society to accomodate equailty and diversity into a multi-cultural society. I don't really know of any country that has successfully broken down all the racial and religious boundarys and moulded it together in harmony.

Most people have opinions on travellers and foreigners but won't/can't speak their mind as they are quickly branded racists for saying what they are thinking so perhaps we need people to speak their minds on these issues so we can challenge them honestly.

woodoo

MadsL wrote: »

You didn't answer my question.

You haven't bothered to answer my question. You don't seem to want to outline your position, just ask questions of others.

MadsL

woodoo wrote: »

You haven't bothered to answer my question. You don't seem to want to outline your position, just ask questions of others.

I'm not the one supporting the Councillor's position.

Are you afraid of where my questions will lead you?

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

And your solution is what exactly?

You still haven't answered my question...do you intend to?

For the third time:

ENFORCE THE LAW PROPERLY ON THE TRAVELLING COMMUNITY.
That means imprisonment for theft, it means proper social worker oversight of at-risk children, it means enforcing the mandatory schooling provision, it means inspections of housing quality for at-risk children, and a lot more that currently is insufficiently enforced by An Garda Siochana.

woodoo

MadsL wrote: »

I'm not the one supporting the Councillor's position.

Are you afraid of where my questions will lead you?

No i have just been around boards long enough to see through what you are at. It is much easier to ask questions and direct a discussion than to outline your own thoughts.

If you had something of substance to say on the matter you would have said it by now.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

I'm not the one supporting the Councillor's position.

Are you afraid of where my questions will lead you?

More concerned that you keep ignoring the answers you're given and simply repeating the same questions.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

ENFORCE THE LAW PROPERLY ON THE TRAVELLING COMMUNITY.
That means imprisonment for theft, it means proper social worker oversight of at-risk children, it means enforcing the mandatory schooling provision, it means inspections of housing quality for at-risk children, and a lot more that currently is insufficiently enforced by An Garda Siochana.

And what is your evidence that Travellers are policed any differently than the rest of society. If there is under-policing, other than an anecdotal evidence, what is the evidence of that?

clairefontaine

Cavehill Red wrote: »

For the third time:

ENFORCE THE LAW PROPERLY ON THE TRAVELLING COMMUNITY.
That means imprisonment for theft, it means proper social worker oversight of at-risk children, it means enforcing the mandatory schooling provision, it means inspections of housing quality for at-risk children, and a lot more that currently is insufficiently enforced by An Garda Siochana.

I was wondering about this. Isn't it illegal not to go to school? How do they not go to school? Do they home school? Even in home school you are accountable to inspectors.

Do the powers that be not enforce because they think of them as their own community and leave them to it [a kind of discrimination] or because they are scared of them?

woodoo

MadsL wrote: »

And what is your evidence ?

Its getting silly now. You are not an interviewer. This is supposed to be a discussion.

MadsL

woodoo wrote: »

Its getting silly now. You are not an interviewer. This is supposed to be a discussion.

On the contrary, if someone posits that the Traveller community is underpoliced, I think it entirely appropriate to ask for the evidence of that assertion.

That is the very essence of a discussion board, otherwise it is merely a collection of emotions rather than the discussion of facts.

This is the Politics board, expect unsupported statements to be challenged. After Hours is that way>>>>>> if you want to read anecdotal nonsense.

woodoo

MadsL wrote: »

On the contrary, if someone posits that the Traveller community is underpoliced, I think it entirely appropriate to ask for the evidence of that assertion.

That is the very essence of a discussion board, otherwise it is merely a collection of emotions rather than the discussion of facts.

This is the Politics board, expect unsupported statements to be challenged. After Hours is that way>>>>>> if you want to read anecdotal nonsense.

I will keep an eye on this thread in the hope that you actually say something. But for now its going nowhere.

MadsL

woodoo wrote: »

I will keep an eye on this thread in the hope that you actually say something. But for now its going nowhere.

It is not up to me to say anything. Those proposing changes to the way society treats Travellers can expect to be asked to explain themselves however. That seems to be the way discussion and hence democracy operates.

Would you disagree?

greenpilot

apache wrote: »

I agree with all of the above. Its refreshing to be able to say it as it is without the PC brigade getting their knickers in a twist.

I'm very concerned also about the jail space they take up per capita in ireland.

I'm sure they will be along to say how horrified they are.

True, if you look at the Court Reports in all the regional newspapers, over 80% of all crime is committed by Travelers. That's not anecdotal, its there in black and white. You don't see Pavee point printing those in their so-called media watch on their website.

K-9

Dotsey wrote: »

Having went to school with travellers, had them live within a mile of me and had some dealings in adult life with them I can understand why one would be wary of them but at the same time a large chunk of them are genuinely decent people. They live by a completely different set of rules to us and many parts of their lives are eye popping and alien to us.

I know none of the travellers I went to school with went to secondary school and it's something that's only happened recently that they've completed their schooling. I remember one in particular used to brag to us in I think 6th class about riding his cousin on a regular basis, so in truth they have the same morals regarding interfamily relations as most of Europes royal families. Education is the major issue with them, most have no interest in it as some that I know are practically millionaires from scrap dealing while claiming the labour in several different names. They don't really aspire to be anything in life other than just earning their crust by day to day dealings.

On the issue of segregating them to all live with each other, should we do the same with black Africans? as the way they live their lives is as alien to us as that of the travelling community. I know from my own place of work that they make zero effort to integrate themselves and won't talk English but at the same time report us Irish staff for racism if we talk to each other in Irish.

Or what about building walls around communities to keep them apart as shown in Belfast so unsuccessfully.

The bigger issue here is the challenge of modern society to accomodate equailty and diversity into a multi-cultural society. I don't really know of any country that has successfully broken down all the racial and religious boundarys and moulded it together in harmony.

Most people have opinions on travellers and foreigners but won't/can't speak their mind as they are quickly branded racists for saying what they are thinking so perhaps we need people to speak their minds on these issues so we can challenge them honestly.

I think this post needs further clarification.

MadsL

greenpilot wrote: »

True, if you look at the Court Reports in all the regional newspapers, over 80% of all crime is committed by Travelers. That's not anecdotal, its there in black and white. You don't see Pavee point printing those in their so-called media watch on their website.

29,573 according to the 2011 census identify as Traveller. Are you telling me that less than half of one percent of the population is responsible for 80% of all crime.

Seriously?

Pedro K

The notion that the travellers scandalously high unemployment rate is down to employer discrimination is laughable.

They leave themselves ill equipped to find work because they take their kids out of school early (that's if they even send them at all).

You can harp on about culture all you want. It used to be Irish culture that most men would leave school early to work and women would stay at home to be housewives.

This has changed largely. It has moved with the times. The travellers need to as well.

Facts and figures, most notably the high unemployment rate and over representation in prisons, have been presented to you numerous times in numerous threads MadsL, so don't ask for them again.

Just acknowledge that the travelling community has a serious issue with criminality and anti social behaviour that needs to be addressed and not swept under the rug as it constantly is by apologists like you.

If they can't acknowledge and make attempts to address it, then they can piss off looking for state handouts all the time.

'all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others'

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

29,573 according to the 2011 census identify as Traveller. Are you telling me that less than half of one percent of the population is responsible for 80% of all crime.

Seriously?

No, the Department of Justice statistics are. It's likely an underestimate of the full scale of crime given that it only related to that which is investigated and prosecuted. According to British statistics, Irish travellers make up 1% of the prison cohort there, in another country, ffs.

K-9

Cavehill Red wrote: »

For the third time:

ENFORCE THE LAW PROPERLY ON THE TRAVELLING COMMUNITY.
That means imprisonment for theft, it means proper social worker oversight of at-risk children, it means enforcing the mandatory schooling provision, it means inspections of housing quality for at-risk children, and a lot more that currently is insufficiently enforced by An Garda Siochana.

Well if the prison population has a significant element of travellers and if a significant percentage of travellers are in jail, that would suggest they do bye and large get imprisoned.

If there's a spate of burglaries in an area the Guards will not be long suspecting travellers.

So Guards quickly suspect travellers, travellers have a high conviction and imprisonment rate, law and order forces of the state are hardy working.

Just using logic. The state tends to target them but they still have a high crime rate, the kneejerkers decide to target them more.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, the Department of Justice statistics are. It's likely an underestimate of the full scale of crime given that it only related to that which is investigated and prosecuted.

Are you actually supporting that 80% figure??

What DoJ figures are you referring to?

greenpilot

MadsL wrote: »

29,573 according to the 2011 census identify as Traveller. Are you telling me that less than half of one percent of the population is responsible for 80% of all crime.

Seriously?

Yes, go read a local paper. If you think that there are just 30,000 travellers in Ireland you are deluded. Has it occured to you that most of them move between here and the UK in order to pick up their benefits. Plus, do you honestly believe that the local Mary Maughan or McDonnagh actually sat down and filled out a census form?
Seriously?

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

Are you actually supporting that 80% figure??

What DoJ figures are you referring to?

I now believe you are trolling this thread and hence I won't be answering any of your questions which you are more than capable of googling for yourself.

K-9

deandean wrote: »

I was looking through this thread and the sponsored link 'Oil tank locks' came up.

All I am missing is a sponsored link for 'Eley Number 6'. As recommended for dealing with all forms of reptiles and amphibians.

To make it clear:

BANNED

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, the Department of Justice statistics are. It's likely an underestimate of the full scale of crime given that it only related to that which is investigated and prosecuted. According to British statistics, Irish travellers make up 1% of the prison cohort there, in another country, ffs.

Lets get a sense of perspective - 1% is 970 people.

So your view is that there are too many in jail and they are underpoliced. Which is it again?

Again: Do you support that ludicrous 80% of crime assertion?

K-9

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I now believe you are trolling this thread and hence I won't be answering any of your questions which you are more than capable of googling for yourself.

Actually there was a concerted campaign to help travellers fill out the last census form.

No doubt that will be spun.

greenpilot

MadsL wrote: »

Lets get a sense of perspective - 1% is 970 people.

So your view is that there are too many in jail and they are underpoliced. Which is it again?

Again: Do you support that ludicrous 80% of crime assertion?

He meant 1% of the British prison population. I think you are having problems understanding Irish Traveller culture. Are you from Ireland?. My guess is your Amerrican, just trying to right the world... Lol.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

Lets get a sense of perspective - 1% is 970 people.

So your view is that there are too many in jail and they are underpoliced. Which is it again?

Again: Do you support that ludicrous 80% of crime assertion?

Irish travellers are in jail in disproportionate numbers in Ireland, the UK, the USA, Canada, Australia and Sweden. (I may be missing a few other countries out.)
Is it your contention that ALL of these countries are unfairly and needlessly discriminating against Irish travellers by incarcerating them?

MadsL

greenpilot wrote: »

Yes, go read a local paper. If you think that there are just 30,000 travellers in Ireland you are deluded. Has it occured to you that most of them move between here and the UK in order to pick up their benefits. Plus, do you honestly believe that the local Mary Maughan or McDonnagh actually sat down and filled out a census form?
Seriously?

Very well let us multiply the census figures by what, 4 times.

You believe less than 2% of the population is responsible for 80% of the crime?

And you call me deluded...

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Irish travellers are in jail in disproportionate numbers in Ireland, the UK, the USA, Canada, Australia and Sweden. (I may be missing a few other countries out.)
Is it your contention that ALL of these countries are unfairly and needlessly discriminating against Irish travellers by incarcerating them?

But I thought they were underpoliced?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No, the Department of Justice statistics are. It's likely an underestimate of the full scale of crime given that it only related to that which is investigated and prosecuted.

Which is it?

Out of interest what percentage of travellers should be settled before we see an end to the 'problem' as you see it.

greenpilot

MadsL wrote: »

Very well let us multiply the census figures by what, 4 times.

You believe less than 2% of the population is responsible for 80% of the crime?

And you call me deluded...

You would be surprised what three lads can fit into a Transit in a couple of hours. 4 houses in my area were done last week by the same family, and were thankfully caught...kinda narrows it down really.

MadsL

greenpilot wrote: »

You would be surprised what three lads can fit into a Transit in a couple of hours. 4 houses in my area were done last week by the same family, and were thankfully caught...kinda narrows it down really.

...and more anecdotes...

Could you answer my question, do you believe 2% of the population are responsible for 80% of the crime and are those 2% all Travellers?

SoulandForm

I have a soft spot for travelers because they used to have a place in society as actual tinkers. Now thats gone.

They dont seem to be completely lumpenized- many seem to have made other niches for themselves.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

But I thought they were underpoliced?



Which is it?

You seem to rule out the possibility that travellers can be underpoliced and still be responsible for so much crime that they are incarcerated in higher proportions than less criminal sections of society. That would seem to be an error of logic on your part. It's not either/or. It's both.

MadsL wrote: »

Out of interest what percentage of travellers should be settled before we see an end to the 'problem' as you see it.

If you recall - this is the fourth time I've stated this now to you - I have proposed that proper policing of traveller activity and the rigorous enforcement of the law, including mandatory education, and including social worker inspections of at-risk children is what is needed. I did not raise the issue of settling travellers.

apache

I don't really have time for this table tennis game with mads and his ball hopping.

Forget about statistics. As someone said earlier not very many census forms were filled in by travellers.

Get a day pass to mountjoy. As a prison officer there one WHOLE division is taken up by travellers. Per capita of the prison population ie dubs/ country/ foreign this is unreal and unacceptable.

They have no respect for the law. They "police" their own affairs and make no reasonable effort to integrate into society. They deal with things in their own way and do not recognise courts.

Thats all i really have to say on the matter. I usually only talk about things that i have an insight to.

Again nice to see this is being discussed in a reasonable light and not shut down for being discriminate against them. Because when things don't go their way thats the card thats pulled!

MadsL

SoulandForm wrote: »

I have a soft spot for travelers because they used to have a place in society as actual tinkers. Now thats gone. .

Exactly, society has removed its need for their previous services and then gets annoyed when they find alternative ways of making money.

SoulandForm

MadsL wrote: »

Exactly, society has removed its need for their previous services and then gets annoyed when they find alternative ways of making money.

Breaking into houses can in no way be justified, at least in Ireland where there are places to eat for free, social services, etc.

However in my limited experience they do seem a lot less vicious than non-traveler lumpen elements.

greenpilot

MadsL wrote: »

...and more anecdotes...

Could you answer my question, do you believe 2% of the population are responsible for 80% of the crime and are those 2% all Travellers?

Anecdote? It's in the Mayo Advertiser. Get out of your bubble. Why do you think there has been a huge increase in firearms licences in rural Ireland? It ain't for bunny hunting you know. They robbed me once. Won't happen a second time.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You seem to rule out the possibility that travellers can be underpoliced and still be responsible for so much crime that they are incarcerated in higher proportions than less criminal sections of society. That would seem to be an error of logic on your part. It's not either/or. It's both.

OK, I can see how you hold that position. Tell me would you say that traveller incarceration is similar or higher than the rates for other longterm unemployed persons?

If you recall - this is the fourth time I've stated this now to you - I have proposed that proper policing of traveller activity and the rigorous enforcement of the law, including mandatory education, and including social worker inspections of at-risk children is what is needed. I did not raise the issue of settling travellers.

And I keep asking you for any evidence of your assertion that travellers are underpoliced. So far you have produced nothing.

SoulandForm

greenpilot wrote: »

Anecdote? It's in the Mayo Advertiser. Get out of your bubble. Why do you think there has been a huge increase in firearms licences in rural Ireland? It ain't for bunny hunting you know. They robbed me once. Won't happen a second time.

But are you sure they were travelers and not just common criminals?

MadsL

apache wrote: »

I don't really have time for this table tennis game with mads and his ball hopping.

Wtf is ball hopping?

Forget about statistics.

Yes, lets deal with emotions instead, so much more reliable.

As someone said earlier not very many census forms were filled in by travellers.

Read back; that is the opposite of what was said.

Get a day pass to mountjoy. As a prison officer there one WHOLE division is taken up by travellers. Per capita of the prison population ie dubs/ country/ foreign this is unreal and unacceptable.

How many in mountjoy as you work there?...I'm not in the same position to count as you.

They have no respect for the law. They "police" their own affairs and make no reasonable effort to integrate into society. They deal with things in their own way and do not recognise courts.

I could say exactly the same about Native Americans, they have their own police force, have reservations, deal with things their own way, don't recognise state authority on their lands.

Again nice to see this is being discussed in a reasonable light and not shut down for being discriminate against them. Because when things don't go their way thats the card thats pulled!

Are you admitting you discriminate?